Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on November 12, 2021, 06:51:50 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 12, 2021, 04:12:33 PM
I don't think anyone is "winning" by fanning the burning shit heaps that get made of even the tiniest issues that arise. But you make money from it all, so I get why you're so into spritzing kerosene onto the tiniest embers. You do you.

And none of the woke scolds make money from playing their monotonous sludge? Gimme a break... Virtually all those muppets scrounge about with their patreon and paypal constantly seeking donations. And what do they create for the most part 'nout? They just bleat on about their woke crapola. So what do they really contribute to the hobby? Nothing of real substance.

At least Pundit is a creator, and can sell games and supplements.

If your going to moan about Pundit making money off controversy, at least have the honesty to point out that the other side do it too.

I've never claimed that there aren't other assholes doing thr same kind of stuff from the "other side" (or the same side if it's just one big camp of making money from controversy). And there's nothing at all wrong with making money as long as it's all legal, but I just don't buy into all the kafaybe acts.

Quote from: mightybrain on November 12, 2021, 05:37:45 AM

Quote from: Aglondir on November 11, 2021, 09:15:11 PM
Not sure about that last part... Vampire (and White Wolf) did not use the generic "he." They would alternate between "he" and "she" randomly, which was unheard of at the time. I suspect this was one of the reasons (but not the main one) why the book appealed to a female audience.

As already pointed out, 1st edition AD&D, BX, and BECMI already had used "he or she" throughout in the decade prior to VtM and yet did not bring all the girls to yard.

I didn't see your point earlier, but I see it now. Correct.

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 12, 2021, 06:57:23 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 06:20:25 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 12, 2021, 04:14:11 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 04:04:23 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 12, 2021, 03:55:22 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 03:51:10 PM

Quote from: Haffrung on November 12, 2021, 06:15:50 AM

Quote from: jhkim on November 10, 2021, 04:36:33 PM
In general, English isn't closely prescribed - and usage will vary, especially in conversation and non-formal writing like fiction and RPGs.

RPG books are rules documents - a kind of formal writing. Any professional writers, editors, and publishers worth their salt adhere to a style guide. Something like the Chicago Manual of Style. And 'they' as a singular pronoun is increasingly being recognized in professional style guides. The last three companies I've worked for - two of them oil and gas companies - did not use gendered pronouns in their documentation.

Goodman are doing nothing more than adopting the new norms of language. It might satisfy the tribal allegiances of some here if DCC defied those norms. But it's a businesses trying to meet market and professional standards, not a political actor flying the flag of some faction of fandom.

Their Con guidelines beg to differ. They're apparently proudly flying the flag of "geek feminism" and "player autonomy" (ie. Forge bullshit where players get veto power over the GM).

Players always have a degree of veto power over the GM. They can choose not to play, and if enough of them choose that, the GM now has a playerless game. The players can then put together the game they want, and if the GM is too much of an ass about the whole thing, they might not be invited to join. That applies beyond games too...there's a degree of veto power in almost any social group activity.

That is very clearly not what they mean here. What they mean here is that any player can stop the game at any time and make any kind of demand about things that should be taken out or put into the game or that the GM change a ruling for any reason, because this is a "collaborative storytelling game" run by the players, not the GM and he doesn't have the authority to do anything without the player's "consent".

Which is all bullshit. The one and ONLY "right" that a player has at the table is the right to walk away whenever they like. That's the entire nature of the social contract in a regular gaming table.

That ONLY right is the only one needed. If the GM doesn't keep his players engaged and enjoying thr game, that game can be killed,, so that right is veto power.

The format of regulations like the ones given for the Goodman Con creates a situation where a player can INSIST that they will NOT leave the game, and the GM must do whatever they want, and if the GM tries to kick the player out of his table, he will be the one sanctioned for his "bigotry".

So it turns DMs into powerless puppets there to do the whims of whoever is the loudest demographic at the table.

The DM retsins the same right to leave the game as any other player. Does the con somehow bind them to run a game they don't want to run/play? What are the consequences they would face for just stating "I'm done here" or just humming out a test pattern for the remainder of the time slot?

They often have their con pass payed for if they agree to DM so they might be kicked from the con for not DMing

Quote from: Slambo on November 12, 2021, 08:42:28 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 12, 2021, 06:57:23 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 06:20:25 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 12, 2021, 04:14:11 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 04:04:23 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 12, 2021, 03:55:22 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 03:51:10 PM

Quote from: Haffrung on November 12, 2021, 06:15:50 AM

Quote from: jhkim on November 10, 2021, 04:36:33 PM
In general, English isn't closely prescribed - and usage will vary, especially in conversation and non-formal writing like fiction and RPGs.

RPG books are rules documents - a kind of formal writing. Any professional writers, editors, and publishers worth their salt adhere to a style guide. Something like the Chicago Manual of Style. And 'they' as a singular pronoun is increasingly being recognized in professional style guides. The last three companies I've worked for - two of them oil and gas companies - did not use gendered pronouns in their documentation.

Goodman are doing nothing more than adopting the new norms of language. It might satisfy the tribal allegiances of some here if DCC defied those norms. But it's a businesses trying to meet market and professional standards, not a political actor flying the flag of some faction of fandom.

Their Con guidelines beg to differ. They're apparently proudly flying the flag of "geek feminism" and "player autonomy" (ie. Forge bullshit where players get veto power over the GM).

Players always have a degree of veto power over the GM. They can choose not to play, and if enough of them choose that, the GM now has a playerless game. The players can then put together the game they want, and if the GM is too much of an ass about the whole thing, they might not be invited to join. That applies beyond games too...there's a degree of veto power in almost any social group activity.

That is very clearly not what they mean here. What they mean here is that any player can stop the game at any time and make any kind of demand about things that should be taken out or put into the game or that the GM change a ruling for any reason, because this is a "collaborative storytelling game" run by the players, not the GM and he doesn't have the authority to do anything without the player's "consent".

Which is all bullshit. The one and ONLY "right" that a player has at the table is the right to walk away whenever they like. That's the entire nature of the social contract in a regular gaming table.

That ONLY right is the only one needed. If the GM doesn't keep his players engaged and enjoying thr game, that game can be killed,, so that right is veto power.

The format of regulations like the ones given for the Goodman Con creates a situation where a player can INSIST that they will NOT leave the game, and the GM must do whatever they want, and if the GM tries to kick the player out of his table, he will be the one sanctioned for his "bigotry".

So it turns DMs into powerless puppets there to do the whims of whoever is the loudest demographic at the table.

The DM retsins the same right to leave the game as any other player. Does the con somehow bind them to run a game they don't want to run/play? What are the consequences they would face for just stating "I'm done here" or just humming out a test pattern for the remainder of the time slot?

They often have their con pass payed for if they agree to DM so they might be kicked from the con for not DMing

Ok, for the con game, play/run by con rules. No big deal. For your own games, in your own spaces, run how you (and your players) like. This isn't really hard to understand.

Don't go to Goodman's Cons and give them money because they are Full Woke. No Big Deal. Tell others about Goodman's Full Wokeness so they can make a choice not to go. No Big Deal. Don't buy their products because I don't want to support a Full Woke company. No Big Deal. Inform others about Goodman's Full Wokeness so they can make the choice not to buy Goodman's products. No Big Deal.

We can all play the "No Big Deal" game too.

Quote from: GusB on November 13, 2021, 08:25:31 AM
Don't go to Goodman's Cons and give them money because they are Full Woke. No Big Deal. Tell others about Goodman's Full Wokeness so they can make a choice not to go. No Big Deal. Don't buy their products because I don't want to support a Full Woke company. No Big Deal. Inform others about Goodman's Full Wokeness so they can make the choice not to buy Goodman's products. No Big Deal.

We can all play the "No Big Deal" game too.

Indeed... Like I've been saying it for ages now - Lots of other products and cons.

Invest in like minded gamers and sod the rest of 'em. No big deal!

Anybody okay with any publisher using they/them as a neutral gender term is a Woke ally. It doesn't matter if the Chicago Manual of Style or whatever puts "they" in the style guide... If you can't tell or see how politically moved all these changes have been for their purposes of subverting and inverting language than that's what they want. Our language is being subverted. Our culture is being systematically targeted and those behind it know what they are doing. Getting the Chicago Style of Grammar or whatever it's called to go along with it is just another win for these evil bastards.

"Well it's okay if Goodman Games uses they, but if they use Xe then that's too far." ... This is exactly the kind of thinking the Woke Left want people to have. This is what let's these people get away with all their Woke crap.

There is a book on Amazon I just found out about called Counter Wokecraft. It just got released. If you want to actually know about this Woke infestation and understand it then check it out. There is also a YouTube channel named New Discourses, by a guy named Mike Lindsey, who breaks down everything about the Woke from an academic perspective. I am not affiliated with either. I just prefer not to be ignorant.

Quote from: RebelSky on November 13, 2021, 08:54:30 AM
Anybody okay with any publisher using they/them as a neutral gender term is a Woke ally. It doesn't matter if the Chicago Manual of Style or whatever puts "they" in the style guide... If you can't tell or see how politically moved all these changes have been for their purposes of subverting and inverting language than that's what they want. Our language is being subverted. Our culture is being systematically targeted and those behind it know what they are doing.

Interesting that the Style Guide is a product of Chicago. What's next, the Seattle Gaming Authority? Or maybe the Bay Area Behavioral Handbook? I hear "all the professionals" will use it.

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 13, 2021, 08:16:00 AM

Quote from: Slambo on November 12, 2021, 08:42:28 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 12, 2021, 06:57:23 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 06:20:25 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 12, 2021, 04:14:11 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 04:04:23 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 12, 2021, 03:55:22 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 03:51:10 PM

Quote from: Haffrung on November 12, 2021, 06:15:50 AM

Quote from: jhkim on November 10, 2021, 04:36:33 PM
In general, English isn't closely prescribed - and usage will vary, especially in conversation and non-formal writing like fiction and RPGs.

RPG books are rules documents - a kind of formal writing. Any professional writers, editors, and publishers worth their salt adhere to a style guide. Something like the Chicago Manual of Style. And 'they' as a singular pronoun is increasingly being recognized in professional style guides. The last three companies I've worked for - two of them oil and gas companies - did not use gendered pronouns in their documentation.

Goodman are doing nothing more than adopting the new norms of language. It might satisfy the tribal allegiances of some here if DCC defied those norms. But it's a businesses trying to meet market and professional standards, not a political actor flying the flag of some faction of fandom.

Their Con guidelines beg to differ. They're apparently proudly flying the flag of "geek feminism" and "player autonomy" (ie. Forge bullshit where players get veto power over the GM).

Players always have a degree of veto power over the GM. They can choose not to play, and if enough of them choose that, the GM now has a playerless game. The players can then put together the game they want, and if the GM is too much of an ass about the whole thing, they might not be invited to join. That applies beyond games too...there's a degree of veto power in almost any social group activity.

That is very clearly not what they mean here. What they mean here is that any player can stop the game at any time and make any kind of demand about things that should be taken out or put into the game or that the GM change a ruling for any reason, because this is a "collaborative storytelling game" run by the players, not the GM and he doesn't have the authority to do anything without the player's "consent".

Which is all bullshit. The one and ONLY "right" that a player has at the table is the right to walk away whenever they like. That's the entire nature of the social contract in a regular gaming table.

That ONLY right is the only one needed. If the GM doesn't keep his players engaged and enjoying thr game, that game can be killed,, so that right is veto power.

The format of regulations like the ones given for the Goodman Con creates a situation where a player can INSIST that they will NOT leave the game, and the GM must do whatever they want, and if the GM tries to kick the player out of his table, he will be the one sanctioned for his "bigotry".

So it turns DMs into powerless puppets there to do the whims of whoever is the loudest demographic at the table.

The DM retsins the same right to leave the game as any other player. Does the con somehow bind them to run a game they don't want to run/play? What are the consequences they would face for just stating "I'm done here" or just humming out a test pattern for the remainder of the time slot?

They often have their con pass payed for if they agree to DM so they might be kicked from the con for not DMing

Ok, for the con game, play/run by con rules. No big deal. For your own games, in your own spaces, run how you (and your players) like. This isn't really hard to understand.

This was a heavy factor for me as a road crew judge and a con gm for that as well.  Home games can do whatever they want.

Quote from: Zalman on November 13, 2021, 09:43:34 AM

Quote from: RebelSky on November 13, 2021, 08:54:30 AM
Anybody okay with any publisher using they/them as a neutral gender term is a Woke ally. It doesn't matter if the Chicago Manual of Style or whatever puts "they" in the style guide... If you can't tell or see how politically moved all these changes have been for their purposes of subverting and inverting language than that's what they want. Our language is being subverted. Our culture is being systematically targeted and those behind it know what they are doing.

Interesting that the Style Guide is a product of Chicago. What's next, the Seattle Gaming Authority? Or maybe the Bay Area Behavioral Handbook? I hear "all the professionals" will use it.

In 115 years? Maybe.

The Chicago Manual of Style was first published by the University of Chicago in 1906.

If your entire schtick on the board is constant, 100% bad faith argumentation and apologetics for transforming a dice-rolling & storytelling hobby into a vehicle for CurrentYear politics, it should be no surprise when you get blocked.

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 12, 2021, 06:57:23 PM

The DM retains the same right to leave the game as any other player. Does the con somehow bind them to run a game they don't want to run/play? What are the consequences they would face for just stating "I'm done here" or just humming out a test pattern for the remainder of the time slot?

Why should the DM have to leave their game because of one Jabroni is not affirming "enthusiastic agreement of game development"? Just that situation occurring is a CoC violation that could lead to you being sanctioned or expelled from the con.

"Anyone who violates this Code of Conduct may be sanctioned or expelled from Dungeon Con Online at the discretion of the Dungeon Con Online Admin team."

Quote from: dkabq on November 13, 2021, 10:11:17 AM
Why should the DM have to leave their game because of one Jabroni is not affirming "enthusiastic agreement of game development"? Just that situation occurring is a CoC violation that could lead to you being sanctioned or expelled from the con.

"Anyone who violates this Code of Conduct may be sanctioned or expelled from Dungeon Con Online at the discretion of the Dungeon Con Online Admin team."

  Depends on the Identity/Ideology of the complainants:

Quote from: Dungeon Con Online Code of Conduct
Dungeon Con Online prioritizes marginalized people's safety over privileged people's comfort.
Dungeon Con Online reserves the right not to act on complaints of 'reverse' -isms, including
'reverse racism,' 'reverse sexism,' and 'cisphobia'.
Dungeon Con Online reserves the right not to act on complaints against the reasonable
communication of boundaries, such as "leave me alone," "go away," or "I'm not discussing this
with you."
Dungeon Con Online reserves the right not to act on complaints of someone communicating in
a 'tone' you don't find congenial.
Dungeon Con Online reserves the right not to act on complaints against criticisms of racist,
sexist, cissexist, or otherwise oppressive behavior or assumptions.

Quote from: Zalman on November 13, 2021, 09:43:34 AM

Quote from: RebelSky on November 13, 2021, 08:54:30 AM
Anybody okay with any publisher using they/them as a neutral gender term is a Woke ally. It doesn't matter if the Chicago Manual of Style or whatever puts "they" in the style guide... If you can't tell or see how politically moved all these changes have been for their purposes of subverting and inverting language than that's what they want. Our language is being subverted. Our culture is being systematically targeted and those behind it know what they are doing.

Interesting that the Style Guide is a product of Chicago. What's next, the Seattle Gaming Authority? Or maybe the Bay Area Behavioral Handbook? I hear "all the professionals" will use it.

It's called that simply because it's published, as it has always been, by the University of Chicago.  This is, in fact, one of the standard style guides used by publishers all over the world.  These are also tied to specific disciplines for things like how you do footnotes, bibliographies, etc.  So, for example, Chicago style is generally used in the field of history, which is my academic specialty.  But for literature, they use the guide produced by the Modern Language Association, called the MLA style.  For many of the social sciences, they use APA, or American Psychological Association style.  These are not inherently political, but are used by disciplines for uniformity.  Of course specific presses, publishers, and journals often have their own house styles that you must conform to if you wish to publish with them.  I'm an editor for a academic journal and we require all submissions to conform to our style, which is based on Chicago.  As teachers, we generally pick a style appropriate to the discipline and require our students to adhere to it.

FWIW I personally think that Goodman is absolutely virtue signalling, but whatever, I don't play DCC anyhow.  However I just wanted to clarify this about style guides.

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 13, 2021, 08:16:00 AM
Ok, for the con game, play/run by con rules. No big deal. For your own games, in your own spaces, run how you (and your players) like. This isn't really hard to understand.

You have a point, if at a con, play/run by the con's rules. But fuck beans, have you read the rules?

• safety tools
• the requirement to routinely reaffirm pronouns
• the requirement to routinely check-in to affirm enthusiastic agreement of game development
• "Dungeon Con Online prioritizes marginalized people's safety over privileged people's comfort."
• "Dungeon Con Online reserves the right not to act on complaints of 'reverse' -isms, including 'reverse racism,' 'reverse sexism,' and 'cisphobia'." So if you are white and black person calls you a "cracker", you can just fuck right off.
• The Star Chamber Enforcement & Consequences process. Looks like they took a page out of the Obama era Title IX playbook