Quote from: DCC Grandstanding
"Respect player pronouns and character pronouns; routinely reaffirm these throughout play and at the start of each session"

"Respect player autonomy and practice regular check-ins to affirm enthusiastic agreement of game development"

Are these real? Just wow.

It was given out before their 2nd online con. It's ridiculous.

The real question to me is why announce this sort of thing? If you are going to have a new version of the game you should have a bit more than pronounce to justify it. If you are changing it just for the pronouns you are chasing a market that is micro or doesn't exist.

Quote from: jhkim on November 11, 2021, 02:41:38 PMGygax deliberately used "he or she" throughout the books to distinguish, which was progressive for its time.

Wasn't OD&D neutral he? For 1st edition AD&D and the Basic set, TSR switched to "he or she" in an attempt to appeal to a larger percentage of the female market. I suspect this was under expert advice. I also suspect it made no difference. For 2nd edition and the Rules Cyclopedia they went back to neutral he with a boilerplate pronoun note in the intro. Then with 3rd edition, it was back to "he or she" up to 5th. Will 5.5/6th edition switch now to "they?" Who knows?

The idea that the female market won't buy RPGs was soundly refuted by the sales of Vampire. It's D&D that female players have historically shied away from; due to negative stereotyping in popular culture for the most part. In recent years, those stereotypes have fallen out of fashion, so the modern player base is more representative. However, this change in representation is clearly uncorrelated with pronoun usage in the books.

Quote from: mightybrain on November 11, 2021, 08:48:21 PM
The idea that the female market won't buy RPGs was soundly refuted by the sales of Vampire. It's D&D that female players have historically shied away from; due to negative stereotyping in popular culture for the most part. In recent years, those stereotypes have fallen out of fashion, so the modern player base is more representative. However, this change in representation is clearly uncorrelated with pronoun usage in the books.

Not sure about that last part... Vampire (and White Wolf) did not use the generic "he." They would alternate between "he" and "she" randomly, which was unheard of at the time. I suspect this was one of the reasons (but not the main one) why the book appealed to a female audience.

Quote from: mightybrain on November 11, 2021, 08:48:21 PM
Wasn't OD&D neutral he? For 1st edition AD&D and the Basic set, TSR switched to "he or she" in an attempt to appeal to a larger percentage of the female market. I suspect this was under expert advice. I also suspect it made no difference. For 2nd edition and the Rules Cyclopedia they went back to neutral he with a boilerplate pronoun note in the intro. Then with 3rd edition, it was back to "he or she" up to 5th. Will 5.5/6th edition switch now to "they?" Who knows?

D&D has specifically referred to adventurers as female since since 3rd edition, as far as I can remember. It is sometimes hard to find examples of pronoun usage since generally rules text is better to refer to more rule-specific identifiers (e.g. the Paladin) rather than pronouns. But you will find "her" here and there.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on November 10, 2021, 07:49:40 AM

Quote from: dkabq on November 10, 2021, 07:18:46 AMThat's where I am at. I don't know if changing pronouns will bring more women into DCC, but it seems innocuous. That said, it does have the potential to be a step onto the slippery slope.

Any woman, or guy for that matter, that will only play a game if it uses politically correct pronouns isn't a person you would want to join your game or hobby in the first place.

I couldn't agree more. We don't want or need these people in the hobby. We need more gatekeeping.

Quote from: DoctorGlocktor on November 12, 2021, 05:06:00 AM
I couldn't agree more. We don't want or need these people in the hobby. We need more gatekeeping.

This why I'd like to see very clear demarcation between the two factions.

Let the dweebs and gimps have as many pronouns, wheelchairs, forced diversitaay or whatever as they want. That's fine! Just stay away from anyone who just wants to play and enjoy their games.

Thing is, we empower those companies by buying their material. The red list has been a great way to sterilize the hobby (for us at least)  . Don't give these peeps your money. Make sure it goes to the creators/companies you want to flourish.

And let the other little bed wetters of the hobby have their own little corner to piss in. Fook 'em!

Quote from: Aglondir on November 11, 2021, 09:15:11 PM
Not sure about that last part... Vampire (and White Wolf) did not use the generic "he." They would alternate between "he" and "she" randomly, which was unheard of at the time. I suspect this was one of the reasons (but not the main one) why the book appealed to a female audience.

As already pointed out, 1st edition AD&D, BX, and BECMI already had used "he or she" throughout in the decade prior to VtM and yet did not bring all the girls to yard.

Quote from: jhkim on November 10, 2021, 04:36:33 PM
In general, English isn't closely prescribed - and usage will vary, especially in conversation and non-formal writing like fiction and RPGs.

RPG books are rules documents - a kind of formal writing. Any professional writers, editors, and publishers worth their salt adhere to a style guide. Something like the Chicago Manual of Style. And 'they' as a singular pronoun is increasingly being recognized in professional style guides. The last three companies I've worked for - two of them oil and gas companies - did not use gendered pronouns in their documentation.

Goodman are doing nothing more than adopting the new norms of language. It might satisfy the tribal allegiances of some here if DCC defied those norms. But it's a businesses trying to meet market and professional standards, not a political actor flying the flag of some faction of fandom.

DP

Quote from: Haffrung on November 12, 2021, 06:15:50 AM

Quote from: jhkim on November 10, 2021, 04:36:33 PM
In general, English isn't closely prescribed - and usage will vary, especially in conversation and non-formal writing like fiction and RPGs.

RPG books are rules documents - a kind of formal writing. Any professional writers, editors, and publishers worth their salt adhere to a style guide. Something like the Chicago Manual of Style. And 'they' as a singular pronoun is increasingly being recognized in professional style guides. The last three companies I've worked for - two of them oil and gas companies - did not use gendered pronouns in their documentation.

Goodman are doing nothing more than adopting the new norms of language. It might satisfy the tribal allegiances of some here if DCC defied those norms. But it's a businesses trying to meet market and professional standards, not a political actor flying the flag of some faction of fandom.

Bollox... It's completely unnecessary. Who defines what a professional standard is by the way? They were already doing that. Woke Scolds don't define what professional standards are. New norms? Again totally unnecessary.

At least call it what it is - A company trying to 'cash in' with the woke crowd, by way of 'announced' virtue signalling and pandering.

Quote from: Haffrung on November 12, 2021, 06:15:50 AM

Quote from: jhkim on November 10, 2021, 04:36:33 PM
In general, English isn't closely prescribed - and usage will vary, especially in conversation and non-formal writing like fiction and RPGs.

RPG books are rules documents - a kind of formal writing. Any professional writers, editors, and publishers worth their salt adhere to a style guide. Something like the Chicago Manual of Style. And 'they' as a singular pronoun is increasingly being recognized in professional style guides.

Goodman are doing nothing more than adopting the new norms of language. It might satisfy the tribal allegiances of some here if DCC defied those norms. But it's a businesses trying to meet market and professional standards, not a political actor flying the flag of some faction of fandom.

That's a valid argument. But I have to say that I am surprised that rather than apply that new style to new products or old products edited for re-release., they are planning reedit their entire catalog. To me, that seems to go beyond the argument of, "just adhering to an updated style guide", especially when you pair it with their woke convention guidelines (is there an argument that they are not woke?).

I do not go to conventions, so it doesn't impact me (other than in terms of "...when they came for the convention-goers, I wasn't one so I said nothing"). And "they" instead "he", "she", "he/she", or "he or she" does not bother me. And if GG wants to put their money into editing old material to remove "he" and add "they", that is GG's call on how to spend their money. As long as no other woke-ness carries over into future material, I can live with that -- YMMV. And if it does, I just stop buying. And my DCC campaign carries forward regardless, as I only need the rule-book, which I have.

Quote from: Haffrung on November 12, 2021, 06:15:50 AM

Quote from: jhkim on November 10, 2021, 04:36:33 PM
In general, English isn't closely prescribed - and usage will vary, especially in conversation and non-formal writing like fiction and RPGs.

RPG books are rules documents - a kind of formal writing. Any professional writers, editors, and publishers worth their salt adhere to a style guide. Something like the Chicago Manual of Style. And 'they' as a singular pronoun is increasingly being recognized in professional style guides. The last three companies I've worked for - two of them oil and gas companies - did not use gendered pronouns in their documentation.

Goodman are doing nothing more than adopting the new norms of language. It might satisfy the tribal allegiances of some here if DCC defied those norms. But it's a businesses trying to meet market and professional standards, not a political actor flying the flag of some faction of fandom.

The norms of language are dictated by majority use, only a very small percentage of the population uses those "new norms". Nope, they are virtue signaling as proven by their convention document.

Quote from: mightybrain on November 12, 2021, 05:37:45 AM

Quote from: Aglondir on November 11, 2021, 09:15:11 PM
Not sure about that last part... Vampire (and White Wolf) did not use the generic "he." They would alternate between "he" and "she" randomly, which was unheard of at the time. I suspect this was one of the reasons (but not the main one) why the book appealed to a female audience.

As already pointed out, 1st edition AD&D, BX, and BECMI already had used "he or she" throughout in the decade prior to VtM and yet did not bring all the girls to yard.

Because, as hard as the woketards wish this wasn't true, women and men have (in general) different tastes/interests regarding work/hobbies/etc.

And that's okay, as long as there's not a barrier preventing me to become a nurse due to my sex I'm perfectly fine with most nurses being female.

Just like I'm perfectly fine with 99% of the market demgraphic for romance novels being females.

There's no reason (nor a way) to make everything 50/50. Except by force, forcing people to do shit they don't want to do in the name of equality.