Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 04:04:23 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 12, 2021, 03:55:22 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 03:51:10 PM

Quote from: Haffrung on November 12, 2021, 06:15:50 AM

Quote from: jhkim on November 10, 2021, 04:36:33 PM
In general, English isn't closely prescribed - and usage will vary, especially in conversation and non-formal writing like fiction and RPGs.

RPG books are rules documents - a kind of formal writing. Any professional writers, editors, and publishers worth their salt adhere to a style guide. Something like the Chicago Manual of Style. And 'they' as a singular pronoun is increasingly being recognized in professional style guides. The last three companies I've worked for - two of them oil and gas companies - did not use gendered pronouns in their documentation.

Goodman are doing nothing more than adopting the new norms of language. It might satisfy the tribal allegiances of some here if DCC defied those norms. But it's a businesses trying to meet market and professional standards, not a political actor flying the flag of some faction of fandom.

Their Con guidelines beg to differ. They're apparently proudly flying the flag of "geek feminism" and "player autonomy" (ie. Forge bullshit where players get veto power over the GM).

Players always have a degree of veto power over the GM. They can choose not to play, and if enough of them choose that, the GM now has a playerless game. The players can then put together the game they want, and if the GM is too much of an ass about the whole thing, they might not be invited to join. That applies beyond games too...there's a degree of veto power in almost any social group activity.

That is very clearly not what they mean here. What they mean here is that any player can stop the game at any time and make any kind of demand about things that should be taken out or put into the game or that the GM change a ruling for any reason, because this is a "collaborative storytelling game" run by the players, not the GM and he doesn't have the authority to do anything without the player's "consent".

Which is all bullshit. The one and ONLY "right" that a player has at the table is the right to walk away whenever they like. That's the entire nature of the social contract in a regular gaming table.

Quote from: Haffrung on November 12, 2021, 12:11:34 PM
Which doesn't mean Goodman isn't engaging in virtue signalling by making a big deal about it. But anyone who thinks using 'they' as a singular pronoun is fringe or going away is mistaken. It's already standard usage in dictionaries, style guides, and the corporate world.

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 03:58:59 PM
I'm saying you're here, arguing against traditional gaming to regular gamers, not arguing over in left-wing forums at communist gamers about why they should stop trying to ruin the hobby.  And worse, you're  here making your argument in an utterly transparently-fake "what's the big deal? So why do  you care? I obviously don't care; I'm here talking about this in every thread trying to convince or shame people into not fighting back against the Leftist deconstruction of society in every single thread, but I totally don't care even a little". It's an insult that you think anyone here can't see through that.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter on November 12, 2021, 04:49:23 PM
Denying reality is a pastime it appears. This is not some personal gender thing where someone is insisting on a gender pronoun (and, honestly, I treat that like a name, someone likes Nicholas instead of Nick, I call them what they prefer). This is just a company using a perfectly accepted neutral pronoun.

Must be a slow news day and the list has stopped drawing attention if suddenly posters are all about grammar. Like bog standard grammar.

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 12, 2021, 04:12:33 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 03:58:59 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 12, 2021, 03:52:21 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 03:40:24 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 11, 2021, 04:59:00 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 11, 2021, 04:43:29 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 11, 2021, 04:34:23 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 11, 2021, 04:29:37 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 11, 2021, 04:14:03 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 11, 2021, 04:10:48 PM

Quote from: Ruprecht on November 11, 2021, 04:09:14 PM
It really depends upon how they re-write the sentences. With a little effort it isn't all that hard to remove he/she without using They. .

The question is : Why should anyone HAVE TO do even that "little effort"?

Why is that the question? I don't think anyone believes that Goodman games is doing this against their will. They want to do this, and that's all that really matters. Now, you don't have to buy it if you don't like it, but asking why they have to do this is really the wrong question.

That MIGHT be true of Gooperson games (I doubt it since when they start virtue signaling is to hide something). But the bigger picture necesitates that question answered.

So far the only "answers" provided have been "Muh Inclusivity!" and "Muh Representashun!". But never has it been proven that not doing so really stops anyone from joining a hobby.

If those "arguments" held any water you'd find that not a single straight white male would enjoy Wonder Woman, Black Panther, Shang Chi (the original good comics not the BS new ones or the movie), etc.

The same is true of TTRPGs, why is it that in HispanoAmerica the most popular game is vanilla D&D and not something like Maztica?

That is the underlying question that needs to be answered and so far it hasn't been.

Feel free to disagree, I can't force you to be right and I lack the time/interest to try and convince you of anything.

You're (general you, for many in the thread) the ones needing it answered. They (Goodman and others making such changes) obviously don't feel that need. This is then about you, not them.

Actually this is about those demanding such changes but you can keep pretending you don't know that.

What I see here are many demanding others don't make such changes, or at the least denouncing those that do make such choices. If you're going to complain when someone picks a side you don't agree with, you need to realize that you've contributed to hyping up the issue too by virtue/vice-signaling of your own. Try live and let live.

It's funny how this bullshit claim is always given by people on the left directed to people on the right, when it's convenient. While they wait until they can criminally enforce "Silence is Violence".

Are you suggesting I'm planning to do that? If so, you're quite wrong. But, by all means, stick to character.

I'm saying you're here, arguing against traditional gaming to regular gamers, not arguing over in left-wing forums at communist gamers about why they should stop trying to ruin the hobby.  And worse, you're  here making your argument in an utterly transparently-fake "what's the big deal? So why do  you care? I obviously don't care; I'm here talking about this in every thread trying to convince or shame people into not fighting back against the Leftist deconstruction of society in every single thread, but I totally don't care even a little". It's an insult that you think anyone here can't see through that.

I think what side you want winning is pretty fucking clear.

I don't see "sides" the same way you do, and I don't think anyone is "winning" by fanning the burning shit heaps that get made of even the tiniest issues that arise. But you make money from it all, so I get why you're so into spritzing kerosene onto the tiniest embers. You do you.

Quote from: Fantacide on November 12, 2021, 04:58:59 PM

Quote from: Myrdin Potter on November 12, 2021, 04:49:23 PM
Denying reality is a pastime it appears. This is not some personal gender thing where someone is insisting on a gender pronoun (and, honestly, I treat that like a name, someone likes Nicholas instead of Nick, I call them what they prefer). This is just a company using a perfectly accepted neutral pronoun.

Must be a slow news day and the list has stopped drawing attention if suddenly posters are all about grammar. Like bog standard grammar.

Honestly the con guideline document should be the nail in the coffin. This thing with the pronouns just stems from that, and that document was published quite some time ago (around the time of the second online convention Bride of Cyclops Con I think?)

Quote
Denying reality is a pastime it appears. This is not some personal gender thing where someone is insisting on a gender pronoun (and, honestly, I treat that like a name, someone likes Nicholas instead of Nick, I call them what they prefer). This is just a company using a perfectly accepted neutral pronoun.

Must be a slow news day and the list has stopped drawing attention if suddenly posters are all about grammar. Like bog standard grammar.

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 12, 2021, 04:14:11 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 04:04:23 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 12, 2021, 03:55:22 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 03:51:10 PM

Quote from: Haffrung on November 12, 2021, 06:15:50 AM

Quote from: jhkim on November 10, 2021, 04:36:33 PM
In general, English isn't closely prescribed - and usage will vary, especially in conversation and non-formal writing like fiction and RPGs.

RPG books are rules documents - a kind of formal writing. Any professional writers, editors, and publishers worth their salt adhere to a style guide. Something like the Chicago Manual of Style. And 'they' as a singular pronoun is increasingly being recognized in professional style guides. The last three companies I've worked for - two of them oil and gas companies - did not use gendered pronouns in their documentation.

Goodman are doing nothing more than adopting the new norms of language. It might satisfy the tribal allegiances of some here if DCC defied those norms. But it's a businesses trying to meet market and professional standards, not a political actor flying the flag of some faction of fandom.

Their Con guidelines beg to differ. They're apparently proudly flying the flag of "geek feminism" and "player autonomy" (ie. Forge bullshit where players get veto power over the GM).

Players always have a degree of veto power over the GM. They can choose not to play, and if enough of them choose that, the GM now has a playerless game. The players can then put together the game they want, and if the GM is too much of an ass about the whole thing, they might not be invited to join. That applies beyond games too...there's a degree of veto power in almost any social group activity.

That is very clearly not what they mean here. What they mean here is that any player can stop the game at any time and make any kind of demand about things that should be taken out or put into the game or that the GM change a ruling for any reason, because this is a "collaborative storytelling game" run by the players, not the GM and he doesn't have the authority to do anything without the player's "consent".

Which is all bullshit. The one and ONLY "right" that a player has at the table is the right to walk away whenever they like. That's the entire nature of the social contract in a regular gaming table.

That ONLY right is the only one needed. If the GM doesn't keep his players engaged and enjoying thr game, that game can be killed,, so that right is veto power.

Quote from: FingerRod on November 12, 2021, 04:25:57 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 03:58:59 PM
I'm saying you're here, arguing against traditional gaming to regular gamers, not arguing over in left-wing forums at communist gamers about why they should stop trying to ruin the hobby.  And worse, you're  here making your argument in an utterly transparently-fake "what's the big deal? So why do  you care? I obviously don't care; I'm here talking about this in every thread trying to convince or shame people into not fighting back against the Leftist deconstruction of society in every single thread, but I totally don't care even a little". It's an insult that you think anyone here can't see through that.

It is transparent. It is also pathetic. I cannot imagine how empty my life would have to be.

I'd love to see links showing even one or two of these trolls telling members of rpg.net they are making a big deal about something, or should not pick sides and just focus on the game at the table.

They don't, because they don't actually believe any of it.

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 06:21:10 PM
And if someone tried to do that over there, they would be banned.

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 06:20:25 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 12, 2021, 04:14:11 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 04:04:23 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 12, 2021, 03:55:22 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 03:51:10 PM

Quote from: Haffrung on November 12, 2021, 06:15:50 AM

Quote from: jhkim on November 10, 2021, 04:36:33 PM
In general, English isn't closely prescribed - and usage will vary, especially in conversation and non-formal writing like fiction and RPGs.

RPG books are rules documents - a kind of formal writing. Any professional writers, editors, and publishers worth their salt adhere to a style guide. Something like the Chicago Manual of Style. And 'they' as a singular pronoun is increasingly being recognized in professional style guides. The last three companies I've worked for - two of them oil and gas companies - did not use gendered pronouns in their documentation.

Goodman are doing nothing more than adopting the new norms of language. It might satisfy the tribal allegiances of some here if DCC defied those norms. But it's a businesses trying to meet market and professional standards, not a political actor flying the flag of some faction of fandom.

Their Con guidelines beg to differ. They're apparently proudly flying the flag of "geek feminism" and "player autonomy" (ie. Forge bullshit where players get veto power over the GM).

Players always have a degree of veto power over the GM. They can choose not to play, and if enough of them choose that, the GM now has a playerless game. The players can then put together the game they want, and if the GM is too much of an ass about the whole thing, they might not be invited to join. That applies beyond games too...there's a degree of veto power in almost any social group activity.

That is very clearly not what they mean here. What they mean here is that any player can stop the game at any time and make any kind of demand about things that should be taken out or put into the game or that the GM change a ruling for any reason, because this is a "collaborative storytelling game" run by the players, not the GM and he doesn't have the authority to do anything without the player's "consent".

Which is all bullshit. The one and ONLY "right" that a player has at the table is the right to walk away whenever they like. That's the entire nature of the social contract in a regular gaming table.

That ONLY right is the only one needed. If the GM doesn't keep his players engaged and enjoying thr game, that game can be killed,, so that right is veto power.

The format of regulations like the ones given for the Goodman Con creates a situation where a player can INSIST that they will NOT leave the game, and the GM must do whatever they want, and if the GM tries to kick the player out of his table, he will be the one sanctioned for his "bigotry".

So it turns DMs into powerless puppets there to do the whims of whoever is the loudest demographic at the table.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on November 12, 2021, 11:58:59 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 12, 2021, 11:06:35 AM
There's no reason (nor a way) to make everything 50/50. Except by force, forcing people to do shit they don't want to do in the name of equality.

Well, we've seen the attempt to convince people that the disparity is primarily due to some kind of -ism in the existing fanbase.

But yeah, that attempt has failed to produce any results. As pointed out, nerd hobbies going mainstream did that heavy lifting.

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 12, 2021, 04:12:33 PM
I don't think anyone is "winning" by fanning the burning shit heaps that get made of even the tiniest issues that arise. But you make money from it all, so I get why you're so into spritzing kerosene onto the tiniest embers. You do you.

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 06:20:25 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 12, 2021, 04:14:11 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 04:04:23 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 12, 2021, 03:55:22 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 03:51:10 PM

Quote from: Haffrung on November 12, 2021, 06:15:50 AM

Quote from: jhkim on November 10, 2021, 04:36:33 PM
In general, English isn't closely prescribed - and usage will vary, especially in conversation and non-formal writing like fiction and RPGs.

RPG books are rules documents - a kind of formal writing. Any professional writers, editors, and publishers worth their salt adhere to a style guide. Something like the Chicago Manual of Style. And 'they' as a singular pronoun is increasingly being recognized in professional style guides. The last three companies I've worked for - two of them oil and gas companies - did not use gendered pronouns in their documentation.

Goodman are doing nothing more than adopting the new norms of language. It might satisfy the tribal allegiances of some here if DCC defied those norms. But it's a businesses trying to meet market and professional standards, not a political actor flying the flag of some faction of fandom.

Their Con guidelines beg to differ. They're apparently proudly flying the flag of "geek feminism" and "player autonomy" (ie. Forge bullshit where players get veto power over the GM).

Players always have a degree of veto power over the GM. They can choose not to play, and if enough of them choose that, the GM now has a playerless game. The players can then put together the game they want, and if the GM is too much of an ass about the whole thing, they might not be invited to join. That applies beyond games too...there's a degree of veto power in almost any social group activity.

That is very clearly not what they mean here. What they mean here is that any player can stop the game at any time and make any kind of demand about things that should be taken out or put into the game or that the GM change a ruling for any reason, because this is a "collaborative storytelling game" run by the players, not the GM and he doesn't have the authority to do anything without the player's "consent".

Which is all bullshit. The one and ONLY "right" that a player has at the table is the right to walk away whenever they like. That's the entire nature of the social contract in a regular gaming table.

That ONLY right is the only one needed. If the GM doesn't keep his players engaged and enjoying thr game, that game can be killed,, so that right is veto power.

The format of regulations like the ones given for the Goodman Con creates a situation where a player can INSIST that they will NOT leave the game, and the GM must do whatever they want, and if the GM tries to kick the player out of his table, he will be the one sanctioned for his "bigotry".

So it turns DMs into powerless puppets there to do the whims of whoever is the loudest demographic at the table.