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DCCRPG going Woke

Started by Bogmagog, November 10, 2021, 04:25:39 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

HappyDaze

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 04:04:23 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 12, 2021, 03:55:22 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 03:51:10 PM
Quote from: Haffrung on November 12, 2021, 06:15:50 AM
Quote from: jhkim on November 10, 2021, 04:36:33 PM
In general, English isn't closely prescribed - and usage will vary, especially in conversation and non-formal writing like fiction and RPGs.

RPG books are rules documents - a kind of formal writing. Any professional writers, editors, and publishers worth their salt adhere to a style guide. Something like the Chicago Manual of Style. And 'they' as a singular pronoun is increasingly being recognized in professional style guides. The last three companies I've worked for - two of them oil and gas companies - did not use gendered pronouns in their documentation.

Goodman are doing nothing more than adopting the new norms of language. It might satisfy the tribal allegiances of some here if DCC defied those norms. But it's a businesses trying to meet market and professional standards, not a political actor flying the flag of some faction of fandom.

Their Con guidelines beg to differ. They're apparently proudly flying the flag of "geek feminism" and "player autonomy" (ie. Forge bullshit where players get veto power over the GM).
Players always have a degree of veto power over the GM. They can choose not to play, and if enough of them choose that, the GM now has a playerless game. The players can then put together the game they want, and if the GM is too much of an ass about the whole thing, they might not be invited to join. That applies beyond games too...there's a degree of veto power in almost any social group activity.

That is very clearly not what they mean here. What they mean here is that any player can stop the game at any time and make any kind of demand about things that should be taken out or put into the game or that the GM change a ruling for any reason, because this is a "collaborative storytelling game" run by the players, not the GM and he doesn't have the authority to do anything without the player's "consent".

Which is all bullshit. The one and ONLY "right" that a player has at the table is the right to walk away whenever they like. That's the entire nature of the social contract in a regular gaming table.


That ONLY right is the only one needed. If the GM doesn't keep his players engaged and enjoying thr game, that game can be killed,, so that right is veto power.

Omega

Quote from: Haffrung on November 12, 2021, 12:11:34 PM
Which doesn't mean Goodman isn't engaging in virtue signalling by making a big deal about it. But anyone who thinks using 'they' as a singular pronoun is fringe or going away is mistaken. It's already standard usage in dictionaries, style guides, and the corporate world.

I was using "they/their" 25 years ago because thats what we were taught in school 20 odd years before that. The usage goes back fairly far as an indicator of a group or individual as someone prior pointed out already.

Which is not what Wokeman Games is doing. Its pure virtue signalling.

FingerRod

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 03:58:59 PM
I'm saying you're here, arguing against traditional gaming to regular gamers, not arguing over in left-wing forums at communist gamers about why they should stop trying to ruin the hobby.  And worse, you're  here making your argument in an utterly transparently-fake "what's the big deal? So why do  you care? I obviously don't care; I'm here talking about this in every thread trying to convince or shame people into not fighting back against the Leftist deconstruction of society in every single thread, but I totally don't care even a little". It's an insult that you think anyone here can't see through that.

It is transparent. It is also pathetic. I cannot imagine how empty my life would have to be.

I'd love to see links showing even one or two of these trolls telling members of rpg.net they are making a big deal about something, or should not pick sides and just focus on the game at the table.

They don't, because they don't actually believe any of it.

Myrdin Potter

Denying reality is a pastime it appears. This is not some personal gender thing where someone is insisting on a gender pronoun (and, honestly, I treat that like a name, someone likes Nicholas instead of Nick, I call them what they prefer). This is just a company using a perfectly accepted neutral pronoun.

Must be a slow news day and the list has stopped drawing attention if suddenly posters are all about grammar. Like bog standard grammar.

Fantacide

Quote from: Myrdin Potter on November 12, 2021, 04:49:23 PM
Denying reality is a pastime it appears. This is not some personal gender thing where someone is insisting on a gender pronoun (and, honestly, I treat that like a name, someone likes Nicholas instead of Nick, I call them what they prefer). This is just a company using a perfectly accepted neutral pronoun.

Must be a slow news day and the list has stopped drawing attention if suddenly posters are all about grammar. Like bog standard grammar.

Honestly the con guideline document should be the nail in the coffin. This thing with the pronouns just stems from that, and that document was published quite some time ago (around the time of the second online convention Bride of Cyclops Con I think?)

SHARK

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 12, 2021, 04:12:33 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 03:58:59 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 12, 2021, 03:52:21 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 03:40:24 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 11, 2021, 04:59:00 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 11, 2021, 04:43:29 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 11, 2021, 04:34:23 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 11, 2021, 04:29:37 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 11, 2021, 04:14:03 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 11, 2021, 04:10:48 PM
Quote from: Ruprecht on November 11, 2021, 04:09:14 PM
It really depends upon how they re-write the sentences. With a little effort it isn't all that hard to remove he/she without using They. .

The question is : Why should anyone HAVE TO do even that "little effort"?
Why is that the question? I don't think anyone believes that Goodman games is doing this against their will. They want to do this, and that's all that really matters. Now, you don't have to buy it if you don't like it, but asking why they have to do this is really the wrong question.

That MIGHT be true of Gooperson games (I doubt it since when they start virtue signaling is to hide something). But the bigger picture necesitates that question answered.

So far the only "answers" provided have been "Muh Inclusivity!" and "Muh Representashun!". But never has it been proven that not doing so really stops anyone from joining a hobby.

If those "arguments" held any water you'd find that not a single straight white male would enjoy Wonder Woman, Black Panther, Shang Chi (the original good comics not the BS new ones or the movie), etc.

The same is true of TTRPGs, why is it that in HispanoAmerica the most popular game is vanilla D&D and not something like Maztica?

That is the underlying question that needs to be answered and so far it hasn't been.

Feel free to disagree, I can't force you to be right and I lack the time/interest to try and convince you of anything.
You're (general you, for many in the thread) the ones needing it answered. They (Goodman and others making such changes) obviously don't feel that need. This is then about you, not them.

Actually this is about those demanding such changes but you can keep pretending you don't know that.
What I see here are many demanding others don't make such changes, or at the least denouncing those that do make such choices. If you're going to complain when someone picks a side you don't agree with, you need to realize that you've contributed to hyping up the issue too by virtue/vice-signaling of your own. Try live and let live.

It's funny how this bullshit claim is always given by people on the left directed to people on the right, when it's convenient. While they wait until they can criminally enforce "Silence is Violence".
Are you suggesting I'm planning to do that? If so, you're quite wrong. But, by all means, stick to character.

I'm saying you're here, arguing against traditional gaming to regular gamers, not arguing over in left-wing forums at communist gamers about why they should stop trying to ruin the hobby.  And worse, you're  here making your argument in an utterly transparently-fake "what's the big deal? So why do  you care? I obviously don't care; I'm here talking about this in every thread trying to convince or shame people into not fighting back against the Leftist deconstruction of society in every single thread, but I totally don't care even a little". It's an insult that you think anyone here can't see through that.

I think what side you want winning is pretty fucking clear.
I don't see "sides" the same way you do, and I don't think anyone is "winning" by fanning the burning shit heaps that get made of even the tiniest issues that arise. But you make money from it all, so I get why you're so into spritzing kerosene onto the tiniest embers. You do you.

Greetings!

*Laughing* Hopefully, Pundit can bring up a whole Tanker-Fuel Truck, and get the hoses going FULL BLAST! ;D

Every drop of sweet fuel adds to the delicious, roasting fire for the SJW's to wallow in. ;D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
"It is the Marine Corps that will strip away the façade so easily confused with self. It is the Corps that will offer the pain needed to buy the truth. And at last, each will own the privilege of looking inside himself  to discover what truly resides there. Comfort is an illusion. A false security b

SHARK

Quote from: Fantacide on November 12, 2021, 04:58:59 PM
Quote from: Myrdin Potter on November 12, 2021, 04:49:23 PM
Denying reality is a pastime it appears. This is not some personal gender thing where someone is insisting on a gender pronoun (and, honestly, I treat that like a name, someone likes Nicholas instead of Nick, I call them what they prefer). This is just a company using a perfectly accepted neutral pronoun.

Must be a slow news day and the list has stopped drawing attention if suddenly posters are all about grammar. Like bog standard grammar.

Honestly the con guideline document should be the nail in the coffin. This thing with the pronouns just stems from that, and that document was published quite some time ago (around the time of the second online convention Bride of Cyclops Con I think?)

Greetings!

Yeah, the Con-Guidelines document is pretty eye-opening. Sad, really. I had hoped that Goodman Games would have been better--and smarter--than that.

I actually met Jospeh Goodman back in, I think it was 2004, at Gen Con. Then, he seemed like a fine fellow, and cool. *Shrugs* But I also met Lindroos, Green Ronin, and Atlas Games people, too. Nephews, he and his wife. They all seemed pretty nice, cool, and interesting people. It's sad to see them turn out to be SJW, Kool-Aid swilling morons.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
"It is the Marine Corps that will strip away the façade so easily confused with self. It is the Corps that will offer the pain needed to buy the truth. And at last, each will own the privilege of looking inside himself  to discover what truly resides there. Comfort is an illusion. A false security b

FingerRod

#187
Quote
Denying reality is a pastime it appears. This is not some personal gender thing where someone is insisting on a gender pronoun (and, honestly, I treat that like a name, someone likes Nicholas instead of Nick, I call them what they prefer). This is just a company using a perfectly accepted neutral pronoun.

Must be a slow news day and the list has stopped drawing attention if suddenly posters are all about grammar. Like bog standard grammar.

It has been repeatedly pointed out that it isn't just about making a choice moving forward, but going back and changing work already completed. You don't just control-f and drop in your new they/them. This is no small task. Artwork has to be moved along with all kinds of editing.

So no, it is literally the opposite of what you said. It IS about making a statement about pronouns. Just like their con rules.


Edited going low. Rest untouched.

RPGPundit

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 12, 2021, 04:14:11 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 04:04:23 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 12, 2021, 03:55:22 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 03:51:10 PM
Quote from: Haffrung on November 12, 2021, 06:15:50 AM
Quote from: jhkim on November 10, 2021, 04:36:33 PM
In general, English isn't closely prescribed - and usage will vary, especially in conversation and non-formal writing like fiction and RPGs.

RPG books are rules documents - a kind of formal writing. Any professional writers, editors, and publishers worth their salt adhere to a style guide. Something like the Chicago Manual of Style. And 'they' as a singular pronoun is increasingly being recognized in professional style guides. The last three companies I've worked for - two of them oil and gas companies - did not use gendered pronouns in their documentation.

Goodman are doing nothing more than adopting the new norms of language. It might satisfy the tribal allegiances of some here if DCC defied those norms. But it's a businesses trying to meet market and professional standards, not a political actor flying the flag of some faction of fandom.

Their Con guidelines beg to differ. They're apparently proudly flying the flag of "geek feminism" and "player autonomy" (ie. Forge bullshit where players get veto power over the GM).
Players always have a degree of veto power over the GM. They can choose not to play, and if enough of them choose that, the GM now has a playerless game. The players can then put together the game they want, and if the GM is too much of an ass about the whole thing, they might not be invited to join. That applies beyond games too...there's a degree of veto power in almost any social group activity.

That is very clearly not what they mean here. What they mean here is that any player can stop the game at any time and make any kind of demand about things that should be taken out or put into the game or that the GM change a ruling for any reason, because this is a "collaborative storytelling game" run by the players, not the GM and he doesn't have the authority to do anything without the player's "consent".

Which is all bullshit. The one and ONLY "right" that a player has at the table is the right to walk away whenever they like. That's the entire nature of the social contract in a regular gaming table.


That ONLY right is the only one needed. If the GM doesn't keep his players engaged and enjoying thr game, that game can be killed,, so that right is veto power.

The format of regulations like the ones given for the Goodman Con creates a situation where a player can INSIST that they will NOT leave the game, and the GM must do whatever they want, and if the GM tries to kick the player out of his table, he will be the one sanctioned for his "bigotry".

So it turns DMs into powerless puppets there to do the whims of whoever is the loudest demographic at the table.
LION & DRAGON: Medieval-Authentic OSR Roleplaying is available now! You only THINK you\'ve played \'medieval fantasy\' until you play L&D.


My Blog:  http://therpgpundit.blogspot.com/
The most famous uruguayan gaming blog on the planet!

NEW!
Check out my short OSR supplements series; The RPGPundit Presents!


Dark Albion: The Rose War! The OSR fantasy setting of the history that inspired Shakespeare and Martin alike.
Also available in Variant Cover form!
Also, now with the CULTS OF CHAOS cult-generation sourcebook

ARROWS OF INDRA
Arrows of Indra: The Old-School Epic Indian RPG!
NOW AVAILABLE: AoI in print form

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The new Diceless RPG of multiversal power, adventure and intrigue, now available.

RPGPundit

Quote from: FingerRod on November 12, 2021, 04:25:57 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 03:58:59 PM
I'm saying you're here, arguing against traditional gaming to regular gamers, not arguing over in left-wing forums at communist gamers about why they should stop trying to ruin the hobby.  And worse, you're  here making your argument in an utterly transparently-fake "what's the big deal? So why do  you care? I obviously don't care; I'm here talking about this in every thread trying to convince or shame people into not fighting back against the Leftist deconstruction of society in every single thread, but I totally don't care even a little". It's an insult that you think anyone here can't see through that.

It is transparent. It is also pathetic. I cannot imagine how empty my life would have to be.

I'd love to see links showing even one or two of these trolls telling members of rpg.net they are making a big deal about something, or should not pick sides and just focus on the game at the table.

They don't, because they don't actually believe any of it.

And if someone tried to do that over there, they would be banned.
LION & DRAGON: Medieval-Authentic OSR Roleplaying is available now! You only THINK you\'ve played \'medieval fantasy\' until you play L&D.


My Blog:  http://therpgpundit.blogspot.com/
The most famous uruguayan gaming blog on the planet!

NEW!
Check out my short OSR supplements series; The RPGPundit Presents!


Dark Albion: The Rose War! The OSR fantasy setting of the history that inspired Shakespeare and Martin alike.
Also available in Variant Cover form!
Also, now with the CULTS OF CHAOS cult-generation sourcebook

ARROWS OF INDRA
Arrows of Indra: The Old-School Epic Indian RPG!
NOW AVAILABLE: AoI in print form

LORDS OF OLYMPUS
The new Diceless RPG of multiversal power, adventure and intrigue, now available.

FingerRod

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 06:21:10 PM
And if someone tried to do that over there, they would be banned.

Absolutely. And the fact you do not ban people here probably chaps their ass to unspeakable levels.

Fantacide

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 06:20:25 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 12, 2021, 04:14:11 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 04:04:23 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 12, 2021, 03:55:22 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 03:51:10 PM
Quote from: Haffrung on November 12, 2021, 06:15:50 AM
Quote from: jhkim on November 10, 2021, 04:36:33 PM
In general, English isn't closely prescribed - and usage will vary, especially in conversation and non-formal writing like fiction and RPGs.

RPG books are rules documents - a kind of formal writing. Any professional writers, editors, and publishers worth their salt adhere to a style guide. Something like the Chicago Manual of Style. And 'they' as a singular pronoun is increasingly being recognized in professional style guides. The last three companies I've worked for - two of them oil and gas companies - did not use gendered pronouns in their documentation.

Goodman are doing nothing more than adopting the new norms of language. It might satisfy the tribal allegiances of some here if DCC defied those norms. But it's a businesses trying to meet market and professional standards, not a political actor flying the flag of some faction of fandom.

Their Con guidelines beg to differ. They're apparently proudly flying the flag of "geek feminism" and "player autonomy" (ie. Forge bullshit where players get veto power over the GM).
Players always have a degree of veto power over the GM. They can choose not to play, and if enough of them choose that, the GM now has a playerless game. The players can then put together the game they want, and if the GM is too much of an ass about the whole thing, they might not be invited to join. That applies beyond games too...there's a degree of veto power in almost any social group activity.

That is very clearly not what they mean here. What they mean here is that any player can stop the game at any time and make any kind of demand about things that should be taken out or put into the game or that the GM change a ruling for any reason, because this is a "collaborative storytelling game" run by the players, not the GM and he doesn't have the authority to do anything without the player's "consent".

Which is all bullshit. The one and ONLY "right" that a player has at the table is the right to walk away whenever they like. That's the entire nature of the social contract in a regular gaming table.


That ONLY right is the only one needed. If the GM doesn't keep his players engaged and enjoying thr game, that game can be killed,, so that right is veto power.

The format of regulations like the ones given for the Goodman Con creates a situation where a player can INSIST that they will NOT leave the game, and the GM must do whatever they want, and if the GM tries to kick the player out of his table, he will be the one sanctioned for his "bigotry".

So it turns DMs into powerless puppets there to do the whims of whoever is the loudest demographic at the table.

This perfectly sums up why I stepped away from them. I was a road crew judge for many years, and I loved running open table and convention games for them but I'm not going to adhere to guideline document that can get me reprimanded or banned just because some player doesn't like spiders, fire, or whatever else they don't agree with.   :(

Jaeger

Quote from: Ratman_tf on November 12, 2021, 11:58:59 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 12, 2021, 11:06:35 AM
There's no reason (nor a way) to make everything 50/50. Except by force, forcing people to do shit they don't want to do in the name of equality.

Well, we've seen the attempt to convince people that the disparity is primarily due to some kind of -ism in the existing fanbase.

But yeah, that attempt has failed to produce any results. As pointed out, nerd hobbies going mainstream did that heavy lifting.

Exactly.

It is not the changes that WotC has made the past year, or that GG is now making that attracted all the new fans to 5e in the current pop-culture boom.

Geek hobbies going mainstream and making playing RPG's cool again got all the new fans to try out D&D.

All of the changes to races, lore, pronouns, "for inclusivity" are all occurring after 5e D&D had already set record sales numbers.
"The envious are not satisfied with equality; they secretly yearn for superiority and revenge."

Rob Necronomicon

Quote from: HappyDaze on November 12, 2021, 04:12:33 PM
I don't think anyone is "winning" by fanning the burning shit heaps that get made of even the tiniest issues that arise. But you make money from it all, so I get why you're so into spritzing kerosene onto the tiniest embers. You do you.

And none of the woke scolds make money from playing their monotonous sludge? Gimme a break... Virtually all those muppets scrounge about with their patreon and paypal constantly seeking donations. And what do they create for the most part 'nout? They just bleat on about their woke crapola. So what do they really contribute to the hobby? Nothing of real substance.

At least Pundit is a creator, and can sell games and supplements.

If your going to moan about Pundit making money off controversy, at least have the honesty to point out that the other side do it too.




HappyDaze

Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 06:20:25 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 12, 2021, 04:14:11 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 04:04:23 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on November 12, 2021, 03:55:22 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 12, 2021, 03:51:10 PM
Quote from: Haffrung on November 12, 2021, 06:15:50 AM
Quote from: jhkim on November 10, 2021, 04:36:33 PM
In general, English isn't closely prescribed - and usage will vary, especially in conversation and non-formal writing like fiction and RPGs.

RPG books are rules documents - a kind of formal writing. Any professional writers, editors, and publishers worth their salt adhere to a style guide. Something like the Chicago Manual of Style. And 'they' as a singular pronoun is increasingly being recognized in professional style guides. The last three companies I've worked for - two of them oil and gas companies - did not use gendered pronouns in their documentation.

Goodman are doing nothing more than adopting the new norms of language. It might satisfy the tribal allegiances of some here if DCC defied those norms. But it's a businesses trying to meet market and professional standards, not a political actor flying the flag of some faction of fandom.

Their Con guidelines beg to differ. They're apparently proudly flying the flag of "geek feminism" and "player autonomy" (ie. Forge bullshit where players get veto power over the GM).
Players always have a degree of veto power over the GM. They can choose not to play, and if enough of them choose that, the GM now has a playerless game. The players can then put together the game they want, and if the GM is too much of an ass about the whole thing, they might not be invited to join. That applies beyond games too...there's a degree of veto power in almost any social group activity.

That is very clearly not what they mean here. What they mean here is that any player can stop the game at any time and make any kind of demand about things that should be taken out or put into the game or that the GM change a ruling for any reason, because this is a "collaborative storytelling game" run by the players, not the GM and he doesn't have the authority to do anything without the player's "consent".

Which is all bullshit. The one and ONLY "right" that a player has at the table is the right to walk away whenever they like. That's the entire nature of the social contract in a regular gaming table.


That ONLY right is the only one needed. If the GM doesn't keep his players engaged and enjoying thr game, that game can be killed,, so that right is veto power.

The format of regulations like the ones given for the Goodman Con creates a situation where a player can INSIST that they will NOT leave the game, and the GM must do whatever they want, and if the GM tries to kick the player out of his table, he will be the one sanctioned for his "bigotry".

So it turns DMs into powerless puppets there to do the whims of whoever is the loudest demographic at the table.
The DM retsins the same right to leave the game as any other player. Does the con somehow bind them to run a game they don't want to run/play? What are the consequences they would face for just stating "I'm done here" or just humming out a test pattern for the remainder of the time slot?