As written, Dawn Patrol is more like a first-person shooter than most roleplaying games: pick your country, pick your plane, roll for a single starting attribute (Experience), and pick a name for your pilot.
I've been toying with ideas for making it a better roleplaying game. First, there needs to be more to the characters than how well they control an airplane and a machine gun. Second, the game needs to include play outside the cockpit. Third, the head-to-head nature of the game may be problematic, though I think it's possible to make it work with the right group of players.
With respect to the first point, my solution is simple - use 2e Boot Hill for chargen. In fact, BH works for everything that happens away from the plane, and it should be a relatively simple matter to fold in stats like Gun Accuracy and Bravery to the existing DP rules, which adds additional distinction to the individual characters. The two systems handle Experience the same way - gunfights and missions survived - but at different scales, so I could either two-track Experience or find a way to meld the two together.
For the third point, DP as written doesn't have a referee, and BH is playable without a referee; the campaign advice in BH is to write orders in advance, compare them, and adjudicate combat that may arise, say, when the rustlers try to take the rancher's herd on the drive. This could actually be a fun way to play, with the Allies and Central Powers players each having a mission objective to accomplish, but more traditional 'adventures' familiar to roleplayers might be harder to accomplish.
And that leads to the whole, 'what do we do when we're not battling the Red Baron?' thing. Dawn Patrol pilots share some similiarities with swashbucklers. Rescues are a staple of the WWI pilot stories with which I'm familiar, as are special intelligence missions. There are hijinks on leave and rivalries within and between squadrons. Beyond that, well, I admit I'm at a bit of a loss.
One could go for some over-the-top pulp action . . .
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Uhyb_guYGGI/UCBqzstpzTI/AAAAAAAB1FI/k4tdL_tWduA/s400/07_daredevilaces_1935_nov.jpg)(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-KTBcNxaa2-M/UCBq_Q6zDNI/AAAAAAAB1F4/NWklGZt-He8/s400/02_g8_1937_may.jpg)(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-sLfV-pP7GVM/UCBq_0hxv2I/AAAAAAAB1GE/0uuTHE-MQh8/s400/01_g8_1936_april.jpg)
. . . though my own preferences are - surprise, surprise - more traditional.
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-BJF3E66HWzk/UCBqzOTfL8I/AAAAAAAB1E8/A9l046Tf6BU/s400/08_daredevilaces_1936_june.jpg)(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-yfWGQyqp9Fo/UCBqykjcy-I/AAAAAAAB1Ew/ntWz3NGvvUU/s400/09_daredevilaces_1936_sept.jpg)(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-lMJgq0EuH44/UCBqmaRnsjI/AAAAAAAB1Do/wxcl1tfefKA/s400/15_daredevilaces_1939_oct.jpg)
I know Clash has a couple of flying games out there - are any of them WWI-ish, and if not, what do the other ones offer by way of adventure? What would you recommend?
Clash does indeed have a WWI flying game.. trying to remember now, is that "Aces in Spades"?
RPGPundit
Quote from: Black Vulmea;569805(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-KTBcNxaa2-M/UCBq_Q6zDNI/AAAAAAAB1F4/NWklGZt-He8/s400/02_g8_1937_may.jpg)
Trying to use a tanto to hack off the wing of the biplane you are clinging to just became my new definition of badass.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;569805(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Uhyb_guYGGI/UCBqzstpzTI/AAAAAAAB1FI/k4tdL_tWduA/s400/07_daredevilaces_1935_nov.jpg)(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-KTBcNxaa2-M/UCBq_Q6zDNI/AAAAAAAB1F4/NWklGZt-He8/s400/02_g8_1937_may.jpg)(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-sLfV-pP7GVM/UCBq_0hxv2I/AAAAAAAB1GE/0uuTHE-MQh8/s400/01_g8_1936_april.jpg)
I don't think the Germans had a four-engine twin-fuselage bomber in World War TWO.
JG
You could mine the Biggles books (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biggles) for ideas about what to do in the down-time.
Quote from: James Gillen;570242I don't think the Germans had a four-engine twin-fuselage bomber in World War TWO.
JG
when i saw that pic, first thing i thought of was the planes in crimson skies.
Quote from: James Gillen;570242I don't think the Germans had a four-engine twin-fuselage bomber in World War TWO.
JG
To be fair I don't think they had trained giant bats flying around with search lights shining out of their mouths either.
Those look like pulps from the thirties, between the wars. Which explains much of what you see on the covers.
I loved Dawn Patrol and I think Boot Hill would probably be a pretty good fit. But what are you going to do about stating and using tanks and motor cars? Also, we'll need tommy guns for Boot Hill.
Actually, if you do this as an integrated retro-clone I'd be very interested. Damn, you'd want to fix the shotguns in Boot Hill. They're really silly.
IRRC Gang Busters was d% and probably not quite as neat a fit so it wouldn't be a better choice.
Quote from: David Johansen;570274IRRC Gang Busters was d% and probably not quite as neat a fit so it wouldn't be a better choice.
Maybe not quite as tight a fit, but with all of those features already in place.
Great suggestion, David - I'll have to give
GB a look.
Dogfight is a Spanish rpg set in WWI.
(http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR2NLMlKlCbgT9v__MzVTAbCoO9s-LikJ6Kc1a7RCKf0UdTAaUz9A)
Here is an English review (http://eldadoinquieto.blogspot.de/2011/04/dogfight-review.html).
Quote from: noisms;570268To be fair I don't think they had trained giant bats flying around with search lights shining out of their mouths either.
No, but they should have.
JG
Quote from: James Gillen;570423No, but they should have.
JG
Things would have turned out so much differently.
Quote from: noisms;570428Things would have turned out so much differently.
"The Italian Campaign was quickly concluded as Italy signed a separate peace with the Central Powers following the devastating Austro-German victory at the 1917 Battle of Caporetto, which marked Germany's first use of
Stosstruppen infantry and gigantic trained bats."
Quote from: RPGPundit;570154Clash does indeed have a WWI flying game.. trying to remember now, is that "Aces in Spades"?
RPGPundit
Yes, its IN HARMS WAY: ACES in SPADES I do believe, I have been tempted to pick up the WW2 version several times, just can't seem to pull the trigger though.
Have you heard this interview with Mike Carr?
http://saveordie.info/?p=333
Quote from: Stainless;574241Have you heard this interview with Mike Carr?
http://saveordie.info/?p=333
No, I haven't - thanks for linking it.
I am working on this issue myself. What edition of Boot Hill were you talking about using and did you, in fact, ever actually do this? I was thinking about running a Royal Flying Corps campaign starting in early 1916 with four players each controlling three pilots, one for each flight of four planes in those 12-machine squadrons. Observers would probably be NPCs unless someone actually thinks that would be fun to play when compared to the pilot. Aside from scouting and dogfighting and spying, there are the aforementioned rivalries intra- and inter-squadron, as well as between nations, plus bar fights and hijinx with the locals behind the lines. Some pilots were required to take a tender up to the front lines as well to ensure they understand the setup and requirements for their aerial observations so you could easily get into situations that way as well. Of course if they get shot down and survive you can steal from The Grand Illusion movie as well.
Aside from Dawn Patrol, I also have Blue Max from GDW and Knights of the Air from Avalon Hill. Knights has the best board/map. I inherited those but haven't played them yet. Any opinions on any of those as compared to or contrasted with Dawn Patrol?
Dawn Patrol isn't a fucking RPG. It's a minor revision of "Fight in the Skies," which is and was and always will be an unabashed wargame.
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;964001Dawn Patrol isn't a fucking RPG. It's a minor revision of "Fight in the Skies," which is and was and always will be an unabashed wargame.
Which is exactly why it's awesome.
Quote from: beeber;570263when i saw that pic, first thing i thought of was the planes in crimson skies.
I love the original FASA game and background, improved by the addition of Nathan Zachary's Fortune Hunters by Microsoft studios, and in need of a Flightpath-system reboot!
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;964001Dawn Patrol isn't a fucking RPG. It's a minor revision of "Fight in the Skies," which is and was and always will be an unabashed wargame.
:rolleyes:
Aside from the old crank, anyone have anything useful to add?
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;964002Which is exactly why it's awesome.
:)
At least you were half right.
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;964001Dawn Patrol isn't a fucking RPG. It's a minor revision of "Fight in the Skies," which is and was and always will be an unabashed wargame.
Which is exactly why it's awesome.
Like Boot Hill? :D
Combining Boot hill and Dawn Patrol seems a little odd as they do not use a similar system? But you could just plug the BH wargame into the DP wargame and just switch out as needed since the DP pilot has no stats and advancement is a factor of experience in the air.
and speaking of WWI Air war games. Flying Buffalo a few years back reprinted their Ace of Aces game.
Quote from: Omega;964016Like Boot Hill? :D
Combining Boot hill and Dawn Patrol seems a little odd as they do not use a similar system? But you could just plug the BH wargame into the DP wargame and just switch out as needed since the DP pilot has no stats and advancement is a factor of experience in the air.
and speaking of WWI Air war games. Flying Buffalo a few years back reprinted their Ace of Aces game.
I'm not familiar with Ace of Acre. Is that an RPG, a board game, or a hybrid?
Ace of Aces is a booklet game. Each plane has a booklet and a control panel, you swap books and keep the control panel. In play you both pick your maneuver and announce them, then you look up the other guy's maneuver in his booklet and the two books cross integrate to give you both a visual and damage results and a new set of maneuver look up codes. It's an analog first person air combat simulator. They also did a Battle Tech version and a fantasy dueling game.
Yeah, I had (have? somewhere?) Ace of Aces, whose books seemed really brilliant but a bit limited to me. IIRC they also did a wild West gunslinger version. The main issues with the book system to me are the lack of any map/context, and the difficulty of tracking more than two planes (can be done, but...). But also they had more advanced rules and a campaign system which could be adapted to a game without the books. I studied those but didn't get to play them advanced or campaign rules with others. I liked the advanced hit location table which was based on a chart of the target from the direction of fire.
There's also Avalon Hill's Richtofen's War wargame, but I found that weird due to the turn-based movement and scale, such that a dogfight with two planes seemed to mainly be going around in a circle with non-simultaneous movement and rolling to hit. Didn't seem to satisfy my simulationist requirements so I lost interest quickly.
von Richtofen himself seemed to think the prime attribute was high marksmanship, suggesting that it took a goodly amount of skill to hit anything with a 1910's biplane, and also IIRC hunter's instinct to go for the kill, but (unless this was someone else's idea) that it also needed to be tempered with discretion, and that the main way to stay alive long enough to have the experience to be any good and not be a sitting duck, was to realize when not to engage. Flying skill was of course also needed, as well as situational awareness - the combination of good eyesight, understanding, attention, and habits of mind and looking, so that you have a good grasp of what's going on around you in all directions. Leadership skills would also be needed.
There are many good biographies and historical accounts to mine. Dogfights can be really interesting with a good set of rules. Managing squadron resources, the advances and differences in technology and which planes are sent on which sorties, are all fodder for potential interesting games.
(Tommy guns were first produced after the end of The Great War.)
Oh, and that mono-wing bomber was clearly sent back through time by Hitler...
Quote from: David Johansen;964049Ace of Aces is a booklet game. Each plane has a booklet and a control panel, you swap books and keep the control panel. In play you both pick your maneuver and announce them, then you look up the other guy's maneuver in his booklet and the two books cross integrate to give you both a visual and damage results and a new set of maneuver look up codes. It's an analog first person air combat simulator. They also did a Battle Tech version and a fantasy dueling game.
Interesting, but it sounds like too much hassle to incorporate more than 2 machines having a dogfight. Otherwise that sounds like it would be a fun 1-on-1 game.
Doesn't it really depend on what unique experience you are trying to play through?
Are the planes a focus or just backdrop?
I can see it as a war game but not so much as a RPG.
Makes more sense to me to play as "Barnstormers" than as WWI pilots.
That also was life or death, had additional aspects of trying to raise enough of an audience to make a living and pay for repairs.
Creating new stunts all while dealing with "personalities".
=
Quote from: Dumarest;964084Interesting, but it sounds like too much hassle to incorporate more than 2 machines having a dogfight. Otherwise that sounds like it would be a fun 1-on-1 game.
The other Lost World books could handle multiple combatants. So Ace of Aces probably could too. Lost World books are really meant for one on one. But say two on two is do-able. Ive only ever seen it as demoed by FB at Gencon and would like to see it in more depth.
Too bad it wasnt compatible with the other Lost Worlds books as that would have been hilarious to pit my Unicorn against a Sopwith Camel or a Battletech mech.
And bringing this full circle. Way back in the late 90s I talked a little with the Flying Buffalo staff about the idea of Wild West version of Lost Worlds.
Quote from: Greentongue;964093Doesn't it really depend on what unique experience you are trying to play through?
Are the planes a focus or just backdrop?
I can see it as a war game but not so much as a RPG.
Makes more sense to me to play as "Barnstormers" than as WWI pilots.
That also was life or death, had additional aspects of trying to raise enough of an audience to make a living and pay for repairs.
Creating new stunts all while dealing with "personalities".
=
I may be misunderstanding you but it sounds like your statement is "It makes more sense to play what I want to play than what you want to play because of things I like better than things you like." That is always true. But since you aren't in my group, we're going to play what we want to play rather than what you want to play.
I thought he was saying "Are the planes the focus? Or are they just a background prop?" and play accordingly.
Similar to how some RPGs treat spaceships or cars. They are just props to get from point A to point B and maybee break down on the way. They dont have much stats if any at all since the action is all once they get out and on the ground, or inside the vehicle. Vehicle combat isnt a feature. While others treat them as more integral or even the focus, with the character being a mere stat to the ship.
Quote from: Omega;964177I thought he was saying "Are the planes the focus? Or are they just a background prop?" and play accordingly.
Similar to how some RPGs treat spaceships or cars. They are just props to get from point A to point B and maybee break down on the way. They dont have much stats if any at all since the action is all once they get out and on the ground, or inside the vehicle. Vehicle combat isnt a feature. While others treat them as more integral or even the focus, with the character being a mere stat to the ship.
Then I misunderstood. Planes aren't the focus, but we enjoy tactical combat over utter abstraction and want the differences between various planes to matter. So I'd say the split, if the game ever comes to pass, would probably be 50% boardgame-type action with dogfights and such, and 50% roleplaying outside of aerial combat.
Quote from: Dumarest;964165I may be misunderstanding you but it sounds like your statement is "It makes more sense to play what I want to play than what you want to play because of things I like better than things you like." That is always true. But since you aren't in my group, we're going to play what we want to play rather than what you want to play.
QuoteDoesn't it really depend on what unique experience you are trying to play through?
Are the planes a focus or just backdrop?
I was just suggesting an alternate idea that you may not have thought of.
Hope your group enjoys whatever you come up with.
=
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;964001Dawn Patrol isn't a fucking RPG. It's a minor revision of "Fight in the Skies," which is and was and always will be an unabashed wargame.
If your playing piece is 'my guy' or 'me' instead of 'my unit,' if you make decisions in-play through the cockpit glass, if you develop and maintain a characterization for your pilot - chivalrous knight of the skies, opportunist head-on attacker, runs to fight another day, whatever - then yeah, you're fucking roleplaying.
Quote from: Omega;964016Combining Boot hill and Dawn Patrol seems a little odd as they do not use a similar system?
Wait for it.
Quote from: Omega;964016But you could just plug the BH wargame into the DP wargame and just switch out as needed . . .
Wait for it.
Quote from: Omega;964016. . . since the DP pilot has no stats and advancement is a factor of experience in the air.
And the blind squirrel trips over the acorn.
You're too stupid to bother reading anymore.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;964270If your playing piece is 'my guy' or 'me' instead of 'my unit,' if you make decisions in-play through the cockpit glass, if you develop and maintain a characterization for your pilot - chivalrous knight of the skies, opportunist head-on attacker, runs to fight another day, whatever - then yeah, you're fucking roleplaying.
I just found it amusing coming from someone who plays '74 D&D with no problems.
Quote from: Dumarest;964301I just found it amusing coming from someone who plays '74 D&D with no problems.
And I've played a HELL of a lot of FITS, too.
And they're different.
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;964345And I've played a HELL of a lot of FITS, too.
And they're different.
Obviously. Have you anything to contribute to the topic? Or just popping in to say hi again?
Well, it's hard to say much about what seems intuitively obvious.
We always knew they were different. How? Dunno. But we did.
Wait for it.
Wait for it.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;964270If your playing piece is 'my guy' or 'me' instead of 'my unit,' if you make decisions in-play through the cockpit glass, if you develop and maintain a characterization for your pilot - chivalrous knight of the skies, opportunist head-on attacker, runs to fight another day, whatever - then yeah, you're fucking roleplaying.
And the blind cowboy trips over the aeroplane.
You're too stupid to bother reading anymore.
Just sayin man... :D
Quote from: Black Vulmea;964270If your playing piece is 'my guy' or 'me' instead of 'my unit,' if you make decisions in-play through the cockpit glass,
Skirmish wargames go back decades. At GaryCon VI I was the tank commander of a single tank. That does not make TRACTICS a role playing game. Michael Korns' "Modern Warfare in Miniature" is not a roleplaying game, it is a 1:1 skirmish game.
Not all games where you play a single combatant are RPGs by a long shot.