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Damage for weapons - distinctly different or the same?

Started by ZWEIHÄNDER, October 14, 2015, 10:26:25 AM

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JoeNuttall

Quote from: estar;859997Whether an RPG has damage tracks (Fate), or a low amount of hit hit points (Runequest, GURPS), or a high hit point total (D&D) it hard to get away from subtracting numbers from another number.

The only system I seen that really gets away from this is Harnmaster. But even it has a pool of numbers called injury. As you take more hits you keep adding to the the injury pool. The injury total only has one effect, it makes ability saves and skill rolls more difficult.

Every strike has the potential of sending the character into shock/unconsciousness. Harder hitting attacks can make a characters stumble or fumble. And the Hardest hitting attack of course can kill or maim. These are handled by requiring the character make an ability save. The more injuries you have the harder it is to make the save.

Thanks for reminding me about Harnmaster Estar, Arminus pointed out on http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?p=842010#post842010 that my combat system in Explore is like Harnmaster except simpler, and I haven't got round to looking at it properly yet. I like it when -3 means a serious wound whether you're a peasant or a giant.

estar

Quote from: JoeNuttall;860093Thanks for reminding me about Harnmaster Estar, Arminus pointed out on http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?p=842010#post842010 that my combat system in Explore is like Harnmaster except simpler, and I haven't got round to looking at it properly yet. I like it when -3 means a serious wound whether you're a peasant or a giant.

Harnmaster Light is only $10 + shipping from Columbia Games
http://www.columbiagames.com/cgi-bin/query/harn/cfg/single.cfg?product_id=4001L

For that matter the Combat Tables are free to download here
http://www.columbiagames.com/resources/4001/harnmaster-combattables.pdf

The only thing missing is a table of impact values for weapons. You can get a sense of their magnitude from the missile table. It is the second number after the slash.

How it works is that criticals are any roll ending in a 0 or 5. If you succeed it is a critical success if you fail it is a critical failure. This produces four levels of success. You crossindex and if you get a result like A *2 that means you roll 2d6 plus the weapon's impact.

You roll hit location and subtract the armor value. What left will tell you the exact amount of injury and any saves required.  With the cards on hand it combat rounds are resolved fast. Not as fast as classic D&D but a little quicker than other system with detailed combat like GURPS, Runequest, or Hero System.

Willie the Duck

In the game system I am helping to design, there are three categories of weapons-light, one-handed, and two-handed. Each does a different amount of damage (about 1:2:3). Reach, concealability, and combat economy (mostly being able to use in confined space/grapple and whether you can use a shield alongside) are the main differences for the weapons. However, each weapon type (say swords vs. spears) also has certain qualities such as grapple, entangle, bleed, bypass armor, etc.

Exploderwizard

This is one of those issues that should already have an answer depending upon the overall design philosophy of the game.

If the overall game is abstract, such as classic D&D then all the small nuances of different weapons do not need to be explored in depth. Combat itself is largely abstracted and taking one facet of that system and going into deep detail clashes with the rest of the system.

If the overall game is very simulationist/ tactical then leaving out something as important as weapon differences would stick out as a weak point in the design.

I can enjoy playing in both types of games. The right answer is to choose the method that best fits with rest of the game.
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jibbajibba

Quote from: Tod13;859984Maybe it is my experience in Aikido and Iaido, but I don't see a knife being easier to hit with in closer than a sword. As a defender, the knife is still smaller and easier to deal with than a meter or two of sword. But then, Aikido is designed for, by, and with that sort of work.

.

but from up close I can shiv you 10 times in a couple of seconds with a knife. If I combine it with a grappling technique I can pin or trap you then take very accurate shots to disable you. So if I can pin you then stab you through your visor, under your armpit or whatever you are done. That is impossible to do with a sword, not to mention if the sword is a weapon like a rapier, small sword or broadsword then the bottom foot of the blade probably isn't even sharp so my options at close quarters are really limited.
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Tod13

Quote from: jibbajibba;860165but from up close I can shiv you 10 times in a couple of seconds with a knife. If I combine it with a grappling technique I can pin or trap you then take very accurate shots to disable you. So if I can pin you then stab you through your visor, under your armpit or whatever you are done. That is impossible to do with a sword, not to mention if the sword is a weapon like a rapier, small sword or broadsword then the bottom foot of the blade probably isn't even sharp so my options at close quarters are really limited.

None of which changes anything I said as far as answering the OP goes. In close, a sword isn't any more difficult to hit with than a knife--either can be trapped, pinned, or controlled by an opponent.

The stopping ability (damage) from both is relatively similar under different usage patterns, with perhaps an edge (pun intended) to the sword, with cutting/slicing being better at stopping an opponent than stabbing. But that difference may (or may not) be interesting or useful for a particular game. Just as being able to better conceal a knife may or may not be important.

(Open spoiler for long winded reply.):D
Spoiler
From an Aikido perspective, the knife is easier to handle as a defender than the sword. For a high level practitioner, there's no difference, as the techniques are the same. For a lower level person, the knife gives more leeway--you're less likely to hit yourself with it taking it away or while controlling the other person.

As I mentioned, stabbing is a pretty difficult way to stop an attacker. It is one of the least effective methods to damage the targets needed to stop an attacker with a blade. You really want to cut particular blood vessels or muscles in order to stop someone. Stabbing the lungs, heart, or even brain, is relatively ineffective. (They may die, eventually, but they won't be stopped. I'm not saying it doesn't happen. Just that one is more effective as a general rule.) Knives just aren't as good as swords at cutting.

Swords are more useful in close, at least as the Japanese use and design them, than you seem to think. And you can target very small areas effectively. Lots of Japanese swordwork is done inside of arms reach. For a European squire, taking out the opposing knight, knocked over by his side, a long thin knife is probably more useful.

A dull portion of blade at the base (by which I mean capable of being grabbed in the hand for stabbing as some European schools do) is only important for slicing (dragging a weapon down the target). For a cut (or stab) or even a bludgeon (not as effective), it isn't important. Not all schools, even European, practiced that technique.

estar

Quote from: jibbajibba;860165but from up close I can shiv you 10 times in a couple of seconds with a knife. If I combine it with a grappling technique I can pin or trap you then take very accurate shots to disable you. So if I can pin you then stab you through your visor, under your armpit or whatever you are done. That is impossible to do with a sword, not to mention if the sword is a weapon like a rapier, small sword or broadsword then the bottom foot of the blade probably isn't even sharp so my options at close quarters are really limited.

Yes but what people forget that the use of a broadsword is not just about bladework. It differs as to time period and specific weapons but it combines think like body slams, using arm locks, etc.

For example this is just one of the position illustrated in a German Sword fighting manual.


Tod13

Quote from: jhkim;860032I prefer this. I'm not interested in little differences in damage, but there should be a difference between a fist and a sword, or a sword and a shotgun.

The interesting discussion comes in around the stuff in between: knife, sword, and pistol. (And don't forget the whole pistol caliber argument. LOL) And that goes back to the system being used and how it models and represents things, which ends up deciding what is important.

DavetheLost

I find that what matters most to me these days is the effect of injuries sustained in combat. Can I continue to fight as effectively?

I care about the differences between weapons as they relate to the likelyhood of causing different degrees of injury. Is knife more or less likely to disable you than a baseball bat?

The problem I have with many "hit point" systems is that a fighter may perform as well at 1 hit point as he did at 100. I think a fighter who is "nearly dead" should be quite impaired in fighting ability, as should one who is winded and battered. This is different than a one hit kill. Those long dying speeches in Shakespeare after someone has been run through with a rapier are appearently accurate. It took quite a while to die from those wounds, even if you couldn't do much more than talk.

Sometimes even a minor wound can be quite debilitating. Death from a sprained joint is rare, but it sure is an incapacitating injury for a lot of purposes. I put an axe through half of my thumb, for weeks I was effectively one handed while it healed.

Tod13

#24
Quote from: DavetheLost;860175
The problem I have with many "hit point" systems is that a fighter may perform as well at 1 hit point as he did at 100.

This may not be as true nowadays. I've been reading/researching a lot of RPGs lately. And a lot of them have some sort of fatigue system or minuses to skills, combat, etc. at certain damage levels or even express damage strictly as minuses.

I notice this because I dislike it, as exceeding my paperwork threshold. :o

The software developer, simulationist portion of me likes it. :cool:

jibbajibba

all the fancy shenanigans aside you all forgetting Spoon vs the Werewolf

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JI_Jfw22To

45 seconds in ... try doing that with a broadsword or a katana .....
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Elfdart

#26
Quote from: Necrozius;860005I like the idea of weapons being grouped into three broad size categories, each doing a different die of damage (eg.: small is d6, medium is d8 and large is d10). Extra differentiation is handled with little rules or "tags" (eg.: spears have "reach" and "ready").

I have five categories:

  • d2 -knife, fist, kick, dart

  • d4 -dagger, billyclub, hatchet, small hammer, plumbata

  • d6 -short sword, hand axe, club, javelin, horseman's hammer/pick/mace/flail, spear

  • d8 -sword, axe, footman's mace/pick/hammer/flail, spear used in two hands, lance, polearm

  • d10 -two-handed sword, Dane axe, pike, heavy lance

Then I have "tags" like * or + or boldface to show any special properties, like which weapons can be thrown.
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Gronan of Simmerya

I was the person who first suggested different damage for different weapons in OD&D.

Interestingly, I no longer use those "Greyhawk" damage tables and have gone back to all weapons do1d6, with a couple tweaks for 2 handed weapons to compensate for the loss of the shield.

Because I find that the more abstract combat is, the more the players concentrate on other possibilities within the game.
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David Johansen

It depends a great deal on the scale and scope of the game.  In a detailed duel I want weapons that reflect how they are used.  Preferably with a small range of statistics rather than an endless list of special case rules.  In a fast flowing mass combat oriented game a distinction by size may be enough.

Much as I love Rolemaster I think Palladium's Strike, Parry, and Throw modifiers are one of the best reflections of usage within a small range of characteristics.  I'd probably add a penetration / tissue damage and speed characteristics if it was my game.

So, a knife is +2 to throw at first level, a broad sword +2 to strike, and a large shield +2 to parry.  They get a lot of millage there but a warhammer could be +2 penetration and a spiked mace +2 tissue damage.  A flail gets +2 penetration and damage but is -2 speed and so forth.  

Because I want weapons to have roles and purposes rather than being special effects.  And yes, you can have that surf board sized sword but it's +2 to penetration and damage and -8 to speed.
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Christopher Brady

Quote from: Moracai;860091A knife is as deadly as halberd, when used correctly. Different qualities is the way to go in Zweihänder, IMO. Bigger damage dice is just simplification for deadliness factor, and not quite what I imagine you are after in your game.

That's actually a Hollywoodism.  With a knife you have to strike multiple times, or in the right locations, and even then it's often death by blood loss.  One hit with a halberd, can often end the fight right there.  'Used correctly' is a nice fantasy.

Both are lethal, but one takes more work to kill with.  It's the amount of shock and trauma you can do to a body when using weapons that slow.  With a bullet, moving at MACH speeds (or close to, depending on the calibur) it's actually speed that causes the 'damage', momentum + impact = trauma/shock = sometimes death.  Which frankly, physically, is minimal compared to an axe or sword.

Thing is, this is gaming, which means whatever the designer is emulating, or even believes is what the system will do.

Personally, I like varying damage by class of weapon, combined with type of damage.  Daggers do less, swords and one handed weapons of a certain length do another number, two handed weapons do more, and no one uses a polearm for adventuring because it's a battlefield weapon better suited for formation fighting in groups larger and more uniform than the average adventuring party.  Then we add in bludgeoning, piercing, slashing to the mix, to deal with some monster types, and I'm happy.

Although I do like the Barbarians of Lemuria system, in which everything does a D6 in one hand and D6+2 if it's meant for two.  Some weapons can only be used with a certain way, but other than that.
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