So #daggerheart may be the worst major design of the year, because no one knows what it was for.
#ttrpg #osr #dnd
The part that makes me convinced that it won't go anywhere is when you pointed out that it's trying to jam together three things that don't make sense- together- D&D, story game stuff, and critical role themed things. Why the obsession with their own stuff anyway? Why not use an existing story game framework, or whatever? These guys seemed to start with Pathfinder, quickly switched to 5e, and now have Candela Obscura (which is, in my understanding, a roleplaying game with a d6 story system at its core), and are making... another story game?
Is there a big market for this? I know Critical Role is popular, but they only ever were in my vision because they made shows where they are kinda sorta mostly playing D&D. Are they just going to crank out some totally new system every couple years from now until forever?
After watching two Pundit videos on Daggerheart in about as many days, my youtube feed is filled with people making soy faces and googley eyes over the frog race in the game. I blame the algorithm and Pundit equally.
Well what it is for is to cash in on wotc's fuck ups.
Guess they think the CR fans will buy it all up. And they might not be wrong either.
Still giddy over the fact you now share the same views on incoherent game design as Ron Edwards.
It's to make money by selling the game and, more importantly, accessories like special tokens and cards to Critical Role viewers. I wonder how many of them won't notice any rules issues because they never actually play the game at all.
Of course they know what it's for, it's a game designed to be pretended to play, and for consumers to pretend to like. It's a story game with freeflow impov as a central mechanic, so that when the actors engage in freeflow improv it's less obvious that they're doing anything but playing an actual game.
It's like quidditch in that way, a non-game designed to push forward a story, which fans of that story pretend to like not because it's a good game, or even that they like the game, but because they're fans of the story it's embedded in.
Quote from: yosemitemike on March 21, 2024, 03:08:11 AM
It's to make money by selling the game and, more importantly, accessories like special tokens and cards to Critical Role viewers. I wonder how many of them won't notice any rules issues because they never actually play the game at all.
Exactly. It's designed to be a money sink for the CR fandom. They will buy anything with the CR branding on it, so might as well milk them for all they are worth. Its not surprise the game has also all those boardgamey elements, since boardgames have made a comeback with the normie crowd.
Not hating on great boardgames, just pointing out that even young (20-something) normie women that live in social media and do not enjoy any kind of "geeky media" would agree to a night of playing boardgames like Catan and even ask for "boardgame night". So, adding boardgame elements to their game makes it more appealing to the normie crowd and also provides an avenue for products to sell to the CR fanbase.
I think it's plain and simple hubris of Critical Role.
They can't stand the fact that a bunch of white guys created D&D so they have to deconstruct it to their own likeness. And what a surprise. Their likeness is a jumbled confusing hot mess.
Quote from: yosemitemike on March 21, 2024, 03:08:11 AM
It's to make money by selling the game and, more importantly, accessories like special tokens and cards to Critical Role viewers. I wonder how many of them won't notice any rules issues because they never actually play the game at all.
Even if they do end up trying, I wouldn't be surprised if a popular houserule or even the published edition's rule 0 will be to blame the patriarchy on a roll of anything but a nat 1.
Quote from: Silverblade on March 21, 2024, 01:28:39 PM
I think it's plain and simple hubris of Critical Role.
They can't stand the fact that a bunch of white guys created D&D so they have to deconstruct it to their own likeness. And what a surprise. Their likeness is a jumbled confusing hot mess.
The only way to fix this is for Matt to add a babushka to his granny shawl as well as tiktok style painted talons in his next video.
I keep seeing the term "storygame" thrown around. Let me see if I am following this correctly.
Matt Mercer is a pretentious knob who hired some hack game designer to make a D&D flavored, G-rated version of Thirsty Sword Lesbians to shill Critical Role without having to pay WotC their blood tithe.
How close did I get?
Quote from: Corolinth on March 21, 2024, 02:58:20 PM
I keep seeing the term "storygame" thrown around. Let me see if I am following this correctly.
Matt Mercer is a pretentious knob who hired some hack game designer to make a D&D flavored, G-rated version of Thirsty Sword Lesbians to shill Critical Role without having to pay WotC their blood tithe.
How close did I get?
Greetings!
*BOOM*. Powerful, Corolinth. Absolute laser targeting. Everything you said is exactly what this stupid game is all about.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
My problem with the video is Pundit badmouths FATAL, which is imminently playable, and you know exactly why you are playing it.
While I agree with Pundit on the topic I need to ask if he is bored or just in the mood to insert clickbait on the forum.
We already have on thread on the topic but no here is more just with a different title.
What the next topic " Matt Mercer refuses to eat junk food must be an Foodie oh my".
Damn Pundit your getting more stale then an open beer left open in an hot sun for a week. Worse an broken record.
Quote from: Abraxus on March 21, 2024, 04:11:44 PM
While I agree with Pundit on the topic I need to ask if he is bored or just in the mood to insert clickbait on the forum.
We already have on thread on the topic but no here is more just with a different title.
What the next topic " Matt Mercer refuses to eat junk food must be an Foodie oh my".
Damn Pundit your getting more stale then an open beer left open in an hot sun for a week. Worse an broken record.
pretty sure he makes a thread for all of his videos.
Daggerheart doesn't have an identity disorder. It's a story game, it's the kind of games Critical Roll likes. It knows exactly who it is.
Luckily there are plenty of actual real TTRPGs out there for those of us who hate storygames.
Quote from: Zenoguy3 on March 21, 2024, 06:33:38 PM
Quote from: Abraxus on March 21, 2024, 04:11:44 PM
While I agree with Pundit on the topic I need to ask if he is bored or just in the mood to insert clickbait on the forum.
We already have on thread on the topic but no here is more just with a different title.
What the next topic " Matt Mercer refuses to eat junk food must be an Foodie oh my".
Damn Pundit your getting more stale then an open beer left open in an hot sun for a week. Worse an broken record.
pretty sure he makes a thread for all of his videos.
Yup, exactly
Quote from: GhostNinja on March 21, 2024, 07:49:56 PM
Daggerheart doesn't have an identity disorder. It's a story game, it's the kind of games Critical Roll likes. It knows exactly who it is.
Luckily there are plenty of actual real TTRPGs out there for those of us who hate storygames.
It's kind of a storygame. It uses storygame language. It's also too complicated and has too many subsystems to really be a storygame. It's like it is trying to appeal to both the D&D crowd and the storygamer crowd at the same time and the two things are fighting over what the game will be.
Daggerheart is to Critical Role what Hackmaster is to Knights of the Dinner Table... mostly a vehicle for the show/comic to tell stories around and secondarily as merch to sell fans.
The main difference is CR takes itself seriously, while KotDT knows it's a comedy and that ridiculous mechanics leading to ridiculous situations is their bread & butter.
Quote from: Anon Adderlan on March 21, 2024, 01:36:13 AM
Still giddy over the fact you now share the same views on incoherent game design as Ron Edwards.
The design isnt so much incoherent as I suspect they are trying to stealth in a storygamer system and failing their stealth roll. They put in just enough game mechanics to fool the rubes.
Perhaps we should just recognize; that a certain percentage of their fan base, has little interest in playing authentic D&D mechanics. They just want to emulate what they see on Critical Role. Daggerheart is emulating an experience; not a ruleset, or mechanics.
Greetings!
Hackmaster was awesome!
I love Knights of the Dinner Table. NON-STOP HILARITY!!!
Who wouldn't want to play in a game like that, right? Old School D&D turned up to 11. *Laughing*
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Man at Arms on March 26, 2024, 01:14:26 AM
Perhaps we should just recognize; that a certain percentage of their fan base, has little interest in playing authentic D&D mechanics. They just want to emulate what they see on Critical Role. Daggerheart is emulating an experience; not a ruleset, or mechanics.
Except as I point out on the video, I don't think it will do that very well at all.
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 26, 2024, 06:28:01 AM
Except as I point out on the video, I don't think it will do that very well at all.
I think the entire implication is dishonest. These guys have gone through multiple systems (didn't they start with Pathfinder) and always deliver a great show. The system isn't what gets you there, it's everyone having "make a good experience for the viewer" on their mind, and of course, they are all professionals.
Normal play is "make a good experience for yourself and those at the table with you", which is a completely unrelated goal. Most tables don't even
have "viewers", and aren't making a show. It's the difference between dancing with your chick or being a professional dancer at some concert, and the strong implication that these story-ish games will help you have something like what you see on youtube is never gonna happen, and at some level, they know that.
Quote from: Venka on March 26, 2024, 11:04:20 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 26, 2024, 06:28:01 AM
Except as I point out on the video, I don't think it will do that very well at all.
I think the entire implication is dishonest. These guys have gone through multiple systems (didn't they start with Pathfinder) and always deliver a great show. The system isn't what gets you there, it's everyone having "make a good experience for the viewer" on their mind, and of course, they are all professionals.
Normal play is "make a good experience for yourself and those at the table with you", which is a completely unrelated goal. Most tables don't even have "viewers", and aren't making a show. It's the difference between dancing with your chick or being a professional dancer at some concert, and the strong implication that these story-ish games will help you have something like what you see on youtube is never gonna happen, and at some level, they know that.
Sure, Matt.
I, eh, mean Venka.
Quote from: Brad on March 21, 2024, 03:31:27 PM
My problem with the video is Pundit badmouths FATAL, which is imminently playable, and you know exactly why you are playing it.
Indeed. If you can't find a way to incorporate the Anal Circumference table into your games you're playing RPGs completely wrong and there's no hope for you.
Quote from: King Tyranno on March 29, 2024, 04:16:22 PM
Indeed. If you can't find a way to incorporate the Anal Circumference table into your games you're playing RPGs completely wrong and there's no hope for you.
You mean Anal Circumference Potential, and Anal Depth Potential. There's also the Ripped Orifice explanation, with a chance of death.
As I said, very playable.
As a younger person with an interest in trpgs, Critical Role and its fanbase is everywhere. I think that part of the reason that it may fail is the sort of people that make up the fandom are the same people who got angry and called the Hadozee monkey people racist but would play as a frog person. So playing as a furry is a-ok as long as it isn't a primate.
I don't have a game store in my area, and I'm going to university, so I'm afraid that I might end up in a group of critical role fanboys and fangirls and fans of other genders who want to reenact their favorite moments from the latest Critical Role campaign with a whole lot less budget and even less talent. The cringe will kill me.
Quote from: Venka on March 26, 2024, 11:04:20 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 26, 2024, 06:28:01 AM
Except as I point out on the video, I don't think it will do that very well at all.
I think the entire implication is dishonest. These guys have gone through multiple systems (didn't they start with Pathfinder) and always deliver a great show. The system isn't what gets you there, it's everyone having "make a good experience for the viewer" on their mind, and of course, they are all professionals.
Normal play is "make a good experience for yourself and those at the table with you", which is a completely unrelated goal. Most tables don't even have "viewers", and aren't making a show. It's the difference between dancing with your chick or being a professional dancer at some concert, and the strong implication that these story-ish games will help you have something like what you see on youtube is never gonna happen, and at some level, they know that.
Critical role is the Friends version of an RPG session: dumbed down.
Also Matt Mercer is a talentless hack. He had a meltdown recently when the group essentially went off script and didn't want to go on his railroad.
I'm not surprised that Daggerheart is some story-game nonsense. God forbit he actually had some RULES. He'd look at AD&D 1st ed and his brain would explode because he couldn't handle it.
I go as far to say I'm a better DM than Matt. Then again, he sets the bar so low, how could any not be?
Quote from: Crazy_Blue_Haired_Chick on April 01, 2024, 09:22:16 AM
As a younger person with an interest in trpgs, Critical Role and its fanbase is everywhere. I think that part of the reason that it may fail is the sort of people that make up the fandom are the same people who got angry and called the Hadozee monkey people racist but would play as a frog person. So playing as a furry is a-ok as long as it isn't a primate.
You missed the memo where they declared frogs are racist because some make something that looks like the OK gesture and the OK gesture is secretly a neo-nazi symbol now because 4chan said so!
No. Really. Some poor game designer got cancelled by these fuckwits because he had a frog on the game cover.
Somewhere in the world, a proud Kekistani patriot is enjoying a Pepe meme.
Quote from: blackstone on April 01, 2024, 10:15:08 AM
God forbit he actually had some RULES. He'd look at AD&D 1st ed and his brain would explode because he couldn't handle it.
To be fair, that also applies to like 95% of the OSR, where 1e is the red headed stepchild. And even things like more than one saving throw are too complicated for many.
Quote from: JeremyR on April 04, 2024, 05:28:51 PM
And even things like more than one saving throw are too complicated for many.
Complicated? No. Extraneous? Usually. Parsimony is the soul of creativity...
Quote from: JeremyR on April 04, 2024, 05:28:51 PM
Quote from: blackstone on April 01, 2024, 10:15:08 AM
God forbit he actually had some RULES. He'd look at AD&D 1st ed and his brain would explode because he couldn't handle it.
To be fair, that also applies to like 95% of the OSR, where 1e is the red headed stepchild. And even things like more than one saving throw are too complicated for many.
And to think before those rose colored glasses were firmly affixed to some people's asses AD&D was held to be the pinnacle of RPGness. Sure, you didn't play AD&D BtB, but you sure as fuck also didn't play anything else. Basic D&D was for babies.
Quote from: JeremyR on April 04, 2024, 05:28:51 PM
Quote from: blackstone on April 01, 2024, 10:15:08 AM
God forbit he actually had some RULES. He'd look at AD&D 1st ed and his brain would explode because he couldn't handle it.
To be fair, that also applies to like 95% of the OSR, where 1e is the red headed stepchild. And even things like more than one saving throw are too complicated for many.
Modern players seem to be increasingly one backwards step short of morons barely able to comprehend basic grade school math or read a table.
Quote from: Brad on April 04, 2024, 09:33:30 PMBasic D&D was for babies.
BX D&D was actually more deadly than AD&D. You kids and your silly safety wheels.
Quote from: Omega on April 04, 2024, 10:46:09 PM
Quote from: Brad on April 04, 2024, 09:33:30 PMBasic D&D was for babies.
BX D&D was actually more deadly than AD&D. You kids and your silly safety wheels.
Hey, 15 for like three stats, son. Uncle Gary said so!
But SERIOUSLY, hell yeah it was. -10 HP? Sorry, you are dead. My issue is the that all these dudes pretend B/X was their game and they eschewed AD&D in the early 80s, which is total horseshit. It's all retrospective nonsense. I can look back and honestly say, yeah, BECMI was a solid ass game I'm sorry I left for AD&D, but I'll never pretend I didn't get rid of my Mentzer boxed sets as soon as I had enough money for the AD&D books. Wisdom is realizing you might have made a mistake; being a total cocksucker is pretending you never did.
Quote from: Brad on April 04, 2024, 09:33:30 PM
Quote from: JeremyR on April 04, 2024, 05:28:51 PM
Quote from: blackstone on April 01, 2024, 10:15:08 AM
God forbit he actually had some RULES. He'd look at AD&D 1st ed and his brain would explode because he couldn't handle it.
To be fair, that also applies to like 95% of the OSR, where 1e is the red headed stepchild. And even things like more than one saving throw are too complicated for many.
And to think before those rose colored glasses were firmly affixed to some people's asses AD&D was held to be the pinnacle of RPGness. Sure, you didn't play AD&D BtB, but you sure as fuck also didn't play anything else. Basic D&D was for babies.
Greetings!
Yeah, every gamer I knew fucking dropped Basic D&D and grabbed AD&D immediately. Gamers at the time, back in the day, laughed at Basic D&D. Now it is some nostalgic uber game--but back in the day, everyone viewed Basic D&D as totally inferior to AD&D.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Seconding Shark post.
We started with the boxed sets and in my very first gaming group never went back to Basic.
Not because it was better simply because at the time 1E was the latest hotness and three core vs a bunch of boxed sets was easier to carry around. Not to mention TSR slowly stopped supporting Basic and switched to 1E. Granted even as an teenager 1E was an disorganized mess yet it worked and in my neck of the woods until 2E it was the most version we played.
That was my experience as well. As soon as the version with advanced in the title came out, no one wanted to play the Basic one anymore. The general sentiment was that Basic D&D was for people who couldn't handle the advanced version.
Quote from: yosemitemike on April 05, 2024, 02:06:22 PM
That was my experience as well. As soon as the version with advanced in the title came out, no one wanted to play the Basic one anymore. The general sentiment was that Basic D&D was for people who couldn't handle the advanced version.
In our area, Basic was considered the kid's version. So yes, once you hit middle school, you wanted to play AD&D with the big boys. Gary did well adding "Advanced" to the name.
But realistically, the game we played was more like B/X with AD&D classes, magic and magic items.
For me I went to a friend's house and played 1e. Then rode my bike to Waldenbooks and bought D&D.... Mentzer red box because I didn't know there was a difference. ;D
Most groups I knew played AD&D in a home brew setting. I think it felt like it just had "more" to it. More spells, more classes, more races, etc. But Mentzer was perfect as a first read of D&D and the grand completeness of BECMI holds a special place in my heart.
I started with OD&D and moved right to AD&D. We heard about "Basic" and knew that was for kids so we never tried it. A few years later, "Basic" looked inexplicably different and we started to hear about "Expert" Edition, which threw us for a loop -- Does Expert trump Advanced? -- but we did our best to ignore it in our assumed supremacy.
Quote from: Omega on April 02, 2024, 09:26:36 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Blue_Haired_Chick on April 01, 2024, 09:22:16 AM
As a younger person with an interest in trpgs, Critical Role and its fanbase is everywhere. I think that part of the reason that it may fail is the sort of people that make up the fandom are the same people who got angry and called the Hadozee monkey people racist but would play as a frog person. So playing as a furry is a-ok as long as it isn't a primate.
You missed the memo where they declared frogs are racist because some make something that looks like the OK gesture and the OK gesture is secretly a neo-nazi symbol now because 4chan said so!
No. Really. Some poor game designer got cancelled by these fuckwits because he had a frog on the game cover.
But that only applies to Pepe the Frog, or it should, because none of the sparkletroll soynards complained about there being a froggy person as a playable option. Instead, they welcomed it. People think that frogs are cute, and they are not wrong.
And oh God! They have a monkey people option! If this is a repeat of the hadozee I'm going to lose it!
https://app.demiplane.com/nexus/daggerheart/ancestries
At this point, if I wanted to play a monkey person, I'd go with any of the fanmade Dragonball ttrpgs.
Bemusingly I went practically the opposite.
I found BX alot more user friendly and the "make it your own" nearly blank setting" was a brilliant idea that AD&D should have tried as well. Iver the decades I've had an easier time getting players into D&D with BX.
I Dabbled a little with BECMI and while the intros are great. The overall system just felt too stretched out.
Quote from: Omega on April 13, 2024, 11:46:14 PMBemusingly I went practically the opposite.
I found BX alot more user friendly and the "make it your own" nearly blank setting" was a brilliant idea that AD&D should have tried as well. Iver the decades I've had an easier time getting players into D&D with BX.
I Dabbled a little with BECMI and while the intros are great. The overall system just felt too stretched out.
I'm thinking of making an rpg where the gm can generate a setting with dice. I appreciate the idea of having free-reign to make a setting your own, but some people like to have more guidance and structure. It's all down to personal taste.
B/X was the one that literally came with its own setting . And yeah, it was meant to be more user friendly since it was aimed at children.
Quote from: JeremyR on April 19, 2024, 04:16:40 PMB/X was the one that literally came with its own setting . And yeah, it was meant to be more user friendly since it was aimed at children.
If you think BX was aimed at children then you really dont know much about BX then.
Quote from: Omega on April 25, 2024, 11:27:11 PMQuote from: JeremyR on April 19, 2024, 04:16:40 PMB/X was the one that literally came with its own setting . And yeah, it was meant to be more user friendly since it was aimed at children.
If you think BX was aimed at children then you really dont know much about BX then.
I'm presuming JeremyR is commenting on the form factor and packaging for the times, not necessarily the way the content could be used. Even given the '70s and the craziness that got sold as for children, you still had to adjust product to get through parental opprobrium. :)
Then O and AD&D were aimed at children too by that logic.
Quote from: Crazy_Blue_Haired_Chick on April 17, 2024, 02:21:58 PMQuote from: Omega on April 13, 2024, 11:46:14 PMBemusingly I went practically the opposite.
I found BX alot more user friendly and the "make it your own" nearly blank setting" was a brilliant idea that AD&D should have tried as well. Iver the decades I've had an easier time getting players into D&D with BX.
I Dabbled a little with BECMI and while the intros are great. The overall system just felt too stretched out.
I'm thinking of making an rpg where the gm can generate a setting with dice. I appreciate the idea of having free-reign to make a setting your own, but some people like to have more guidance and structure. It's all down to personal taste.
I've got a section like that in my system. It states upfront that should freely ignore any rolls you dislike or outright pick something if you have a preference, but it does allow you to roll up an entire region randomly including realms and dungeons within said region if you're feeling particularly uninspired.
It's a tool, not a rule.
Quote from: Omega on April 26, 2024, 06:44:02 PMThen O and AD&D were aimed at children too by that logic.
I dunno, I have to agree B/X DOES looks more "kiddified" than AD&D. Even though it clearly is/was not. I do know that when I was a kid walking through Toys R' Us, B/X and later BECMI were right next to the Milton Bradley board games while AD&D was next to the Avalon Hill wargames. And everyone knows AH >>>> MB for complexity, so of course that means it's better and for adults and stuff.
Quote from: JeremyR on April 19, 2024, 04:16:40 PMB/X was the one that literally came with its own setting . And yeah, it was meant to be more user friendly since it was aimed at children.
User friendly? Yes
Aimed at children? No
Let's be honest: we all know AD&D was created by Gygax so as to not pay royalties to Arneson for D&D. IT's part of the history.