Is that what caused third edition to collapse?  I'd heard it was a personality clash or a lawsuit but never heard any details.

It's a shame.  The red book is a valuable historical document and I'd buy a hardback reprint with bigger text in a heartbeat.  Indeed I would stock it and even run it in my store.

I'd also like to see the new edition my distributor was soliciting last year.

Oh well, my own humble (okay bombastic and megalomanic) efforts have been much inspired by C&S.

https://plus.google.com/112451078176077858016/posts

Quote from: Hermes Serpent;758077I would point out that this was the subject of legal action in Canada and the licence holders of the IP won the case. It's completely illegal and similar to the unauthorised continuing Tunnels and Trolls reprints that irk that IP holder so much.

If you want to continue to get RPG material don't support people who are stealing IP and distributing it as that stops people making a few bucks to support our hobby.

I thought this version was agreed upon by all parties as a settlement amongst them. However, the red book versions after this one are infringements.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Book_(C%26S)

QuotePublished in 2000 by Wilf Backhaus and Hugh Tyreman. This free download pdf was published by Gamestuff Inc, a gaming company based in Camerose, Alberta.[5] C&S Red Book was a reprinting of the original 1977 edition of C&S with a bigger font and some minor additions.[6] This e-book was produced with a distinctive red cover and was produced under license from Wilf K. Backhaus, Maple Leaf Games Ltd[7] (the game company of Ed. Simbalist who died in March 2005) and Brittannia Game Designs Ltd[8] (BGD) by Gamestuff Inc. At that time Simbalist and Backhaus parted since Wilf Backhaus did not take part in the writing of C&S4: the Rebirth.[9] This edition is the only authorized version. All successive editions are unofficial and have the same cover than the first edition published by FGU in 1977[10]

Quote from: Hermes Serpent;758077I would point out that this was the subject of legal action in Canada and the licence holders of the IP won the case. It's completely illegal and similar to the unauthorised continuing Tunnels and Trolls reprints that irk that IP holder so much.

If you want to continue to get RPG material don't support people who are stealing IP and distributing it as that stops people making a few bucks to support our hobby.

If you think I'm going to take the word of Britannia Game Designs, who after folding and stopping production of a version of C&S no one wanted, let "their IP" go fallow for a decade, before trying to sell old pdfs of their version of C&S (which has nothing to do with any other version of C&S except the name) over the word of the actual authors who wrote C&S 1-3 when neither of those authors are currently alive to dispute the claim - you're living in a dream world and can kiss my ass right in the crack - feel free to use tongue.

Flying Buffalo is still selling their own authored product, both old and new versions, the jackass stealing from them is doing them direct economic harm.  

This was freely distributed under license for all, and there is no version of this being sold anywhere by anyone legally or illegally, so there's zero economic harm, noone's gonna buy that "distilled essence" crap BGD is pushing.

Show me anything said about it court from a country where they don't print the Queen on their money and I'll give a shit.

Yeah, I don't know much about the formal legal status of the property, but 1E C&S is clearly and fully dead as a commercial product and has been for many, many years. I feel no ethical qualms about using digital copies floating around. Plus, I have my own complete, mint set of everything ever put out for that edition, so these dudes got paid plenty by me back in the day when they were selling it.

I've cooled down a bit, having the original authors equated with that asshole robbing Flying Buffalo was more then I could take.

Here's what I've been able to uncover, granted Mistwell could probably give us the whole skinny if he cared.

Brittania Game Design bought Highlander Designs.  The published version of C&S 3 that Highlander published included the following copyright information.

Images following posted under Fair Use for discussion, criticism, etc...


So we see that while Highlander Designs had the copyright for the name Chivalry and Sorcery, we also see that first and second editions materials used were still owned as of 1996 by Brackhaus and Simbalist.  The name of the document is C&S Redbook according to the cover, not Chivalry & Sorcery.  If all BGD has license to for 1st edition is the name or tradedress and not the content, then I'm not sure what the issue is.

If Hermes Serpent, aka "Legal Intern Driveby" wants to enlighten us further, he's welcome to.

I'm not sure on the history of Britannia's C&S The Rebirth.  I do regret not having obtained a copy.  So much Rolemaster to buy.

Anyhow, my understanding is that Britannia got their start publishing a setting for C&S 3e:  Dragon Reaches or Marakush.  I'm not sure if Highlander went down to financial problems or personal problems but the former brings out the later.

My understanding is that C&S the rebirth is a Skill Scape game (can I mention how much I regret their not publishing their sf rules?) and as such an attempt at a unified system but not so much a progression of the actuall C&S mechanics which are essentially an over the top percentile OD&D variant.  What 3e lost was much of the flavor of C&S and the Rebirth was an attempt to bridge the gap.  I'm not sure if Britannia offended the fans or just fizzled because the fans were mostly lost with 3e.  We played 3e and liked it but there were certainly some broken exploits.  Particularly if the GM allowed "heroic scale" characters.  A first level character with a 25 strength and a maul makes the supposedly terrifying trolls cry.

BGD bought out (i.e. paid real money to Ed and Wilf) the rights to Chivalry and Sorcery and paid off the owner of Highlander Designs. They started working on a new edition and then had the misfortune of losing a child to a household accident. That completely threw them for a loop and the result was their plans for C&S were put on hold. Various attempts to restart that project have not gone well.

I was involved with writing material for 3rd ed, my brother wrote parts of 2nd ed, and I was down for material for the current, unfinished, edition. So let's have  less of the drive by lawyering accusation.

As for quoting wikipedia as a source of facts let's be real.

Quote from: David Johansen;758202I'm not sure on the history of Britannia's C&S The Rebirth.  I do regret not having obtained a copy.  So much Rolemaster to buy.

Anyhow, my understanding is that Britannia got their start publishing a setting for C&S 3e:  Dragon Reaches or Marakush.  I'm not sure if Highlander went down to financial problems or personal problems but the former brings out the later.

My understanding is that C&S the rebirth is a Skill Scape game (can I mention how much I regret their not publishing their sf rules?) and as such an attempt at a unified system but not so much a progression of the actuall C&S mechanics which are essentially an over the top percentile OD&D variant.  What 3e lost was much of the flavor of C&S and the Rebirth was an attempt to bridge the gap.  I'm not sure if Britannia offended the fans or just fizzled because the fans were mostly lost with 3e.  We played 3e and liked it but there were certainly some broken exploits.  Particularly if the GM allowed "heroic scale" characters.  A first level character with a 25 strength and a maul makes the supposedly terrifying trolls cry.

What did you expect? They were crystal clear about the ramifications of that level of character given they're supposed to be mythic and total high fantasy.

It's just that the third edition bestiary goes on so much about how tough trolls are.

I did like a lot of things about C&S 3e but it's easy to see how it came to be one of those deeply divisive issues with fans.

Quote from: Hermes Serpent;758229BGD bought out (i.e. paid real money to Ed and Wilf) the rights to Chivalry and Sorcery and paid off the owner of Highlander Designs. They started working on a new edition and then had the misfortune of losing a child to a household accident. That completely threw them for a loop and the result was their plans for C&S were put on hold. Various attempts to restart that project have not gone well.

I was involved with writing material for 3rd ed, my brother wrote parts of 2nd ed, and I was down for material for the current, unfinished, edition. So let's have  less of the drive by lawyering accusation.

As for quoting wikipedia as a source of facts let's be real.

Yes, because an anonymous poster on a forum is much more reliable.

hmm....so who are these guys then?

http://www.mysticstation.com/store/

Quote from: Hermes Serpent;758229BGD bought out (i.e. paid real money to Ed and Wilf) the rights to Chivalry and Sorcery and paid off the owner of Highlander Designs. They started working on a new edition and then had the misfortune of losing a child to a household accident. That completely threw them for a loop and the result was their plans for C&S were put on hold. Various attempts to restart that project have not gone well.

I was involved with writing material for 3rd ed, my brother wrote parts of 2nd ed, and I was down for material for the current, unfinished, edition. So let's have  less of the drive by lawyering accusation.

As for quoting wikipedia as a source of facts let's be real.

1. Are you saying Ed and Wilf did not release the C&S Redbook for free?
2. Is it then forged?
3. Are you claiming that even though for CS3 Highlander did not own C&S 1 and 2 content that somehow that content was transferred to BGD outside of the Highlander Purchase?
4. Can you link to any evidence of this claim?
5. If you are part author of some C&S material, who are you?

I'm all for evaluating a legitimate claim, but screw ignoring the will of an author over some third party with no proof.

Quote from: CRKrueger;7583071. Are you saying Ed and Wilf did not release the C&S Redbook for free?
2. Is it then forged?
3. Are you claiming that even though for CS3 Highlander did not own C&S 1 and 2 content that somehow that content was transferred to BGD outside of the Highlander Purchase?
4. Can you link to any evidence of this claim?
5. If you are part author of some C&S material, who are you?

I'm all for evaluating a legitimate claim, but screw ignoring the will of an author over some third party with no proof.

1. There are several Red Book's out there, only one was published with the approval of BGD (2000 printing version I believe). The 2009, 2011, 2012 and 2013 version are illegal and not approved by BGD as far as I know.
2. Someone is not telling the whole truth.
3. Yes, I believe BGD paid Ed and Wilf for their rights and Highlander for theirs.
4. That would be up to BGD, I've given them a heads up about this thread.
5. Like many on the 'net I don't use my full name but if you check out the surname Clarke you'll find my brother on the C&S Sourcebook and mine on the 3rd  ed Knight's Companion and Armourer's Companion. I'm also credited as part of the Loyal Order of Chivalry and Sorcery mailing list.

Quote from: Hermes Serpent;7584871. There are several Red Book's out there, only one was published with the approval of BGD (2000 printing version I believe). The 2009, 2011, 2012 and 2013 version are illegal and not approved by BGD as far as I know.
2. Someone is not telling the whole truth.
3. Yes, I believe BGD paid Ed and Wilf for their rights and Highlander for theirs.
4. That would be up to BGD, I've given them a heads up about this thread.
5. Like many on the 'net I don't use my full name but if you check out the surname Clarke you'll find my brother on the C&S Sourcebook and mine on the 3rd  ed Knight's Companion and Armourer's Companion. I'm also credited as part of the Loyal Order of Chivalry and Sorcery mailing list.

Can I clarify a number of points.

1 - Ed and Wilf had a joint contract with FGU for C&S which could not be terminated without their joint agreement.  Due to falling out this never happened.

2 - This was the rights that were sold to Highlander (we have this in a letter sent to our lawyer from Scott Bizar)

3 - These were the rights that we purchased from Highlander as confirmed by Ed and Wilf.

4 - A tri-company contract for cross licensing was agreed between BGD, Wilfs company Gamestuff and Ed's company Maple Leaf Games (which was also an associate company of BGD)

5 - A falling out again between Ed and Wilf resulted in an examination of the tri-company contract to find that it was not binding.

6 - Wilf bought out a tidied up version of 1st edition calling it the redbook which was FOR SALE.

7 - Expensive legal advice was taken (five figures which would have gone towards more R&D).  Wilf was sent a cease and desist letter.  He complied and we registered "C&S" and "Chivalry & Sorcery" as registered trademarks which Wilf didnt challenge (it took 5 years so he had plenty of time to challenge).

We hold registered trademarks in Canada, "Chivalry & Sorcery"
registration number TMA627011 and "C&S" registration number TMA626780.

8 - We accept that Red Book is circulating FOC and that later "editions" have been produced.  As these contain a lot of Tolkein material, to protect ourselves we have notified in writing Tolkein Enterprises, New Line Cinema and Games Workshop.  This details our breached rights and breaches of their copyright.

9 - Mystic Station Designs are a Legal Licensee and our representatives in USA.

10 - We initially went on hiatus (but never ceased trading) after getting burnt out from producing a three day residential Con in the UK and was starting to get going again when we lost our son.  Now I am assuming that those who dont think this has an impact on your lives are either not in a relationship or dont have children.

We are working on a 5th edition and looking to add back even more of 1st and 2nd edition (or those parts we can legally - I am not paying exorbitant license fees to include Tolkein material).   It will be a skillskape system but will include a blows combat system for example.  We will be allowing Jewish characters for the first time and will not be politically correct.  At the moment it will a 500 page hardback monster and examples can be seen on our facebook page.

Steve Turner  MICM
Managing Director
Brittannia Game Designs Ltd