I don't know if anyone was aware (since apparently it was done in 2000, when people were busy with 3e), but the original authors of C&S took the original 128 page (in 5pt font ouch) "Red Book", and re-formatted it and re-released it, preserving the original text whenever possible.
This book is 100% free to distribute as long as you don't charge for it. I tossed in it dropbox, so here it is (https://db.tt/ZiXnqtaQ).
Is it straightforward to download?
Quote from: CRKrueger;757638I don't know if anyone was aware (since apparently it was done in 2000, when people were busy with 3e), but the original authors of C&S took the original 128 page (in 5pt font ouch) "Red Book", and re-formatted it and re-released it, preserving the original text whenever possible.
This book is 100% free to distribute as long as you don't charge for it. I tossed in it dropbox, so here it is (https://db.tt/jdRygabl).
Thanks; assuming this is the game I think it is, I used the three old CC books extensively as guidebooks for feudal campaigns for years. I lost my hardcopies.
Quote from: Marleycat;757674Is it straightforward to download?
Left Click on the link, it should open right in the browser then you can save.
Or just Right Click and
Save Link As for Chrome and Firefox,
Save Target As for IE.
Quote from: CRKrueger;757740Left Click on the link, it should open right in the browser then you can save.
Or just Right Click and Save Link As for Chrome and Firefox, Save Target As for IE.
Yeah I got it right after posted that sorry.
Quote from: CRKrueger;757638I don't know if anyone was aware (since apparently it was done in 2000, when people were busy with 3e), but the original authors of C&S took the original 128 page (in 5pt font ouch) "Red Book", and re-formatted it and re-released it, preserving the original text whenever possible.
This book is 100% free to distribute as long as you don't charge for it. I tossed in it dropbox, so here it is (https://db.tt/jdRygabl).
Win. Thank You. Been looking for this for awhile and it was no longer available at the original site where you could download it.
C&S had the best Jousting rules and some cool rules for creating new magic spells.
Looks cool but a little messy. Anyone actually played it? I like the idea of it but its seems more like something I would pilfer for ideas.
Even though you and I are disagreeing pretty vehemently in another thread, thanks very much for posting this. It is a very cool thing to do and I'm enjoying reading it.
I had no idea they had released it. thanks for posting it!
Quote from: Brander;758006Even though you and I are disagreeing pretty vehemently in another thread, thanks very much for posting this. It is a very cool thing to do and I'm enjoying reading it.
No worries. In the end it's ok if we disagree, our players like what we do, so it's all good. :hatsoff:
Sweet!
Best ever! I played soooo much 1e C&S in the early 80's...
Quote from: Arkansan;757857Looks cool but a little messy. Anyone actually played it? I like the idea of it but its seems more like something I would pilfer for ideas.
I had the later edition without the overt sexism and that's exactly what I did. It's way too crunchy for me to run but the skills and subsystems are begging to be pilfered.
That is really cool. I'll give it a good read this weekend.
I would point out that this was the subject of legal action in Canada and the licence holders of the IP won the case. It's completely illegal and similar to the unauthorised continuing Tunnels and Trolls reprints that irk that IP holder so much.
If you want to continue to get RPG material don't support people who are stealing IP and distributing it as that stops people making a few bucks to support our hobby.
Is that what caused third edition to collapse? I'd heard it was a personality clash or a lawsuit but never heard any details.
It's a shame. The red book is a valuable historical document and I'd buy a hardback reprint with bigger text in a heartbeat. Indeed I would stock it and even run it in my store.
I'd also like to see the new edition my distributor was soliciting last year.
Oh well, my own humble (okay bombastic and megalomanic) efforts have been much inspired by C&S.
https://plus.google.com/112451078176077858016/posts
Quote from: Hermes Serpent;758077I would point out that this was the subject of legal action in Canada and the licence holders of the IP won the case. It's completely illegal and similar to the unauthorised continuing Tunnels and Trolls reprints that irk that IP holder so much.
If you want to continue to get RPG material don't support people who are stealing IP and distributing it as that stops people making a few bucks to support our hobby.
I thought this version was agreed upon by all parties as a settlement amongst them. However, the red book versions after this one are infringements.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Book_(C%26S)
QuotePublished in 2000 by Wilf Backhaus and Hugh Tyreman. This free download pdf was published by Gamestuff Inc, a gaming company based in Camerose, Alberta.[5] C&S Red Book was a reprinting of the original 1977 edition of C&S with a bigger font and some minor additions.[6] This e-book was produced with a distinctive red cover and was produced under license from Wilf K. Backhaus, Maple Leaf Games Ltd[7] (the game company of Ed. Simbalist who died in March 2005) and Brittannia Game Designs Ltd[8] (BGD) by Gamestuff Inc. At that time Simbalist and Backhaus parted since Wilf Backhaus did not take part in the writing of C&S4: the Rebirth.[9] This edition is the only authorized version. All successive editions are unofficial and have the same cover than the first edition published by FGU in 1977[10]
Quote from: Hermes Serpent;758077I would point out that this was the subject of legal action in Canada and the licence holders of the IP won the case. It's completely illegal and similar to the unauthorised continuing Tunnels and Trolls reprints that irk that IP holder so much.
If you want to continue to get RPG material don't support people who are stealing IP and distributing it as that stops people making a few bucks to support our hobby.
If you think I'm going to take the word of Britannia Game Designs, who after folding and stopping production of a version of C&S no one wanted, let "their IP" go fallow for a decade, before trying to sell old pdfs of their version of C&S (which has nothing to do with any other version of C&S except the name) over the word of the actual authors who wrote C&S 1-3 when neither of those authors are currently alive to dispute the claim - you're living in a dream world and can kiss my ass right in the crack - feel free to use tongue.
Flying Buffalo is still selling their own authored product, both old and new versions, the jackass stealing from them is doing them direct economic harm.
This was freely distributed under license for all, and there is no version of this being sold anywhere by anyone legally or illegally, so there's zero economic harm, noone's gonna buy that "distilled essence" crap BGD is pushing.
Show me anything said about it court from a country where they don't print the Queen on their money and I'll give a shit.
Yeah, I don't know much about the formal legal status of the property, but 1E C&S is clearly and fully dead as a commercial product and has been for many, many years. I feel no ethical qualms about using digital copies floating around. Plus, I have my own complete, mint set of everything ever put out for that edition, so these dudes got paid plenty by me back in the day when they were selling it.
I've cooled down a bit, having the original authors equated with that asshole robbing Flying Buffalo was more then I could take.
Here's what I've been able to uncover, granted Mistwell could probably give us the whole skinny if he cared.
Brittania Game Design bought Highlander Designs. The published version of C&S 3 that Highlander published included the following copyright information.
Images following posted under Fair Use for discussion, criticism, etc...
(https://db.tt/iC3aNhaP)
So we see that while Highlander Designs had the copyright for the name Chivalry and Sorcery, we also see that first and second editions materials used were still owned as of 1996 by Brackhaus and Simbalist. The name of the document is C&S Redbook according to the cover, not Chivalry & Sorcery. If all BGD has license to for 1st edition is the name or tradedress and not the content, then I'm not sure what the issue is.
If Hermes Serpent, aka "Legal Intern Driveby" wants to enlighten us further, he's welcome to.
I'm not sure on the history of Britannia's C&S The Rebirth. I do regret not having obtained a copy. So much Rolemaster to buy.
Anyhow, my understanding is that Britannia got their start publishing a setting for C&S 3e: Dragon Reaches or Marakush. I'm not sure if Highlander went down to financial problems or personal problems but the former brings out the later.
My understanding is that C&S the rebirth is a Skill Scape game (can I mention how much I regret their not publishing their sf rules?) and as such an attempt at a unified system but not so much a progression of the actuall C&S mechanics which are essentially an over the top percentile OD&D variant. What 3e lost was much of the flavor of C&S and the Rebirth was an attempt to bridge the gap. I'm not sure if Britannia offended the fans or just fizzled because the fans were mostly lost with 3e. We played 3e and liked it but there were certainly some broken exploits. Particularly if the GM allowed "heroic scale" characters. A first level character with a 25 strength and a maul makes the supposedly terrifying trolls cry.
BGD bought out (i.e. paid real money to Ed and Wilf) the rights to Chivalry and Sorcery and paid off the owner of Highlander Designs. They started working on a new edition and then had the misfortune of losing a child to a household accident. That completely threw them for a loop and the result was their plans for C&S were put on hold. Various attempts to restart that project have not gone well.
I was involved with writing material for 3rd ed, my brother wrote parts of 2nd ed, and I was down for material for the current, unfinished, edition. So let's have less of the drive by lawyering accusation.
As for quoting wikipedia as a source of facts let's be real.
Quote from: David Johansen;758202I'm not sure on the history of Britannia's C&S The Rebirth. I do regret not having obtained a copy. So much Rolemaster to buy.
Anyhow, my understanding is that Britannia got their start publishing a setting for C&S 3e: Dragon Reaches or Marakush. I'm not sure if Highlander went down to financial problems or personal problems but the former brings out the later.
My understanding is that C&S the rebirth is a Skill Scape game (can I mention how much I regret their not publishing their sf rules?) and as such an attempt at a unified system but not so much a progression of the actuall C&S mechanics which are essentially an over the top percentile OD&D variant. What 3e lost was much of the flavor of C&S and the Rebirth was an attempt to bridge the gap. I'm not sure if Britannia offended the fans or just fizzled because the fans were mostly lost with 3e. We played 3e and liked it but there were certainly some broken exploits. Particularly if the GM allowed "heroic scale" characters. A first level character with a 25 strength and a maul makes the supposedly terrifying trolls cry.
What did you expect? They were crystal clear about the ramifications of that level of character given they're supposed to be mythic and total high fantasy.
It's just that the third edition bestiary goes on so much about how tough trolls are.
I did like a lot of things about C&S 3e but it's easy to see how it came to be one of those deeply divisive issues with fans.
Quote from: Hermes Serpent;758229BGD bought out (i.e. paid real money to Ed and Wilf) the rights to Chivalry and Sorcery and paid off the owner of Highlander Designs. They started working on a new edition and then had the misfortune of losing a child to a household accident. That completely threw them for a loop and the result was their plans for C&S were put on hold. Various attempts to restart that project have not gone well.
I was involved with writing material for 3rd ed, my brother wrote parts of 2nd ed, and I was down for material for the current, unfinished, edition. So let's have less of the drive by lawyering accusation.
As for quoting wikipedia as a source of facts let's be real.
Yes, because an anonymous poster on a forum is much more reliable.
hmm....so who are these guys then?
http://www.mysticstation.com/store/
Quote from: Hermes Serpent;758229BGD bought out (i.e. paid real money to Ed and Wilf) the rights to Chivalry and Sorcery and paid off the owner of Highlander Designs. They started working on a new edition and then had the misfortune of losing a child to a household accident. That completely threw them for a loop and the result was their plans for C&S were put on hold. Various attempts to restart that project have not gone well.
I was involved with writing material for 3rd ed, my brother wrote parts of 2nd ed, and I was down for material for the current, unfinished, edition. So let's have less of the drive by lawyering accusation.
As for quoting wikipedia as a source of facts let's be real.
1. Are you saying Ed and Wilf did not release the C&S Redbook for free?
2. Is it then forged?
3. Are you claiming that even though for CS3 Highlander did not own C&S 1 and 2 content that somehow that content was transferred to BGD outside of the Highlander Purchase?
4. Can you link to any evidence of this claim?
5. If you are part author of some C&S material, who are you?
I'm all for evaluating a legitimate claim, but screw ignoring the will of an author over some third party with no proof.
Quote from: CRKrueger;7583071. Are you saying Ed and Wilf did not release the C&S Redbook for free?
2. Is it then forged?
3. Are you claiming that even though for CS3 Highlander did not own C&S 1 and 2 content that somehow that content was transferred to BGD outside of the Highlander Purchase?
4. Can you link to any evidence of this claim?
5. If you are part author of some C&S material, who are you?
I'm all for evaluating a legitimate claim, but screw ignoring the will of an author over some third party with no proof.
1. There are several Red Book's out there, only one was published with the approval of BGD (2000 printing version I believe). The 2009, 2011, 2012 and 2013 version are illegal and not approved by BGD as far as I know.
2. Someone is not telling the whole truth.
3. Yes, I believe BGD paid Ed and Wilf for their rights and Highlander for theirs.
4. That would be up to BGD, I've given them a heads up about this thread.
5. Like many on the 'net I don't use my full name but if you check out the surname Clarke you'll find my brother on the C&S Sourcebook and mine on the 3rd ed Knight's Companion and Armourer's Companion. I'm also credited as part of the Loyal Order of Chivalry and Sorcery mailing list.
Quote from: Hermes Serpent;7584871. There are several Red Book's out there, only one was published with the approval of BGD (2000 printing version I believe). The 2009, 2011, 2012 and 2013 version are illegal and not approved by BGD as far as I know.
2. Someone is not telling the whole truth.
3. Yes, I believe BGD paid Ed and Wilf for their rights and Highlander for theirs.
4. That would be up to BGD, I've given them a heads up about this thread.
5. Like many on the 'net I don't use my full name but if you check out the surname Clarke you'll find my brother on the C&S Sourcebook and mine on the 3rd ed Knight's Companion and Armourer's Companion. I'm also credited as part of the Loyal Order of Chivalry and Sorcery mailing list.
Can I clarify a number of points.
1 - Ed and Wilf had a joint contract with FGU for C&S which could not be terminated without their joint agreement. Due to falling out this never happened.
2 - This was the rights that were sold to Highlander (we have this in a letter sent to our lawyer from Scott Bizar)
3 - These were the rights that we purchased from Highlander as confirmed by Ed and Wilf.
4 - A tri-company contract for cross licensing was agreed between BGD, Wilfs company Gamestuff and Ed's company Maple Leaf Games (which was also an associate company of BGD)
5 - A falling out again between Ed and Wilf resulted in an examination of the tri-company contract to find that it was not binding.
6 - Wilf bought out a tidied up version of 1st edition calling it the redbook which was FOR SALE.
7 - Expensive legal advice was taken (five figures which would have gone towards more R&D). Wilf was sent a cease and desist letter. He complied and we registered "C&S" and "Chivalry & Sorcery" as registered trademarks which Wilf didnt challenge (it took 5 years so he had plenty of time to challenge).
We hold registered trademarks in Canada, "Chivalry & Sorcery"
registration number TMA627011 and "C&S" registration number TMA626780.
8 - We accept that Red Book is circulating FOC and that later "editions" have been produced. As these contain a lot of Tolkein material, to protect ourselves we have notified in writing Tolkein Enterprises, New Line Cinema and Games Workshop. This details our breached rights and breaches of their copyright.
9 - Mystic Station Designs are a Legal Licensee and our representatives in USA.
10 - We initially went on hiatus (but never ceased trading) after getting burnt out from producing a three day residential Con in the UK and was starting to get going again when we lost our son. Now I am assuming that those who dont think this has an impact on your lives are either not in a relationship or dont have children.
We are working on a 5th edition and looking to add back even more of 1st and 2nd edition (or those parts we can legally - I am not paying exorbitant license fees to include Tolkein material). It will be a skillskape system but will include a blows combat system for example. We will be allowing Jewish characters for the first time and will not be politically correct. At the moment it will a 500 page hardback monster and examples can be seen on our facebook page.
Steve Turner MICM
Managing Director
Brittannia Game Designs Ltd
Quote from: Karonus;758507We are working on a 5th edition and looking to add back even more of 1st and 2nd edition (or those parts we can legally - I am not paying exorbitant license fees to include Tolkein material). It will be a skillskape system but will include a blows combat system for example. We will be allowing Jewish characters for the first time and will not be politically correct. At the moment it will a 500 page hardback monster and examples can be seen on our facebook page.
So basically what you're saying is that you will produce Yet Another version of C&S that doesn't meet the original vision of the game. Why not simply publish a legal, cleaned up version of the 1st edition? I'd buy that. Change hobbit to halfling and balrog to balor...done.
Quote from: Brad;758512So basically what you're saying is that you will produce Yet Another version of C&S that doesn't meet the original vision of the game. Why not simply publish a legal, cleaned up version of the 1st edition? I'd buy that. Change hobbit to halfling and balrog to balor...done.
The same reason that WOTC are producing D&D5. The game develops, there are some things that cant be included. If you dont want a new edition fine continue to use 1st edition. In the same way I didnt buy into Pathfinder because I had most of the AD&D 2nd ed back catalogue. There will be quite a lot of 1st and 2nd edition that will be cleaned up and included. We could almost certainly use Balor but it wouldnt be a bat winged demon with a fiery whip (Hasbro would sue our arse) but it would be a giant with an eye in the middle of the forehead and one directly opposite in the back of the head. Where there is something from the saga's that we can use we will, as we did with Dwarves Companion.
Its like asking a Traveller Player which edition do they prefer playing, personally I prefer classic.
A lot of time and expense is taken up with producing material, artwork etc but you dont have to buy the game, just dont criticise it because its not what you wanted. Thats already out there and you dont have to pay for it.
We want to put out what we have as a vision for C&S now, not what was 30 years ago. I was a 2nd edition player and fan and thats the feel I want to put back. Rebirth was a stepping stone to start putting right some of the things from 3rd. Now Ed was involved in both 3rd and Rebirth so how it can be slagged off for not involving the original writers I dont know.
We will never please everyone as to what goes into a game, all I know is that its a great way to lose money, not as bad as gambling but as much as I spend on the hobby in other ways.
Steve
Steve, your clarifications didn't address the primary issue at hand in this thread. There is no question that the Red Books after the 2000 release by Gamestuff are infringements. Is the 2000 release by Gamestuff a legally released product?
Quote from: ptingler;758522Steve, your clarifications didn't address the primary issue at hand in this thread. There is no question that the Red Books after the 2000 release by Gamestuff are infringements. Is the 2000 release by Gamestuff a legally released product?
The original tri-party agreement was that 1st and 2nd edition material would be licensed to Maple Leaf and Gamestuff along with trademarks. However, shortly after C&S Light came out a break down came about, and MLG and BGD sent a termination notice of the contract to Wilf. This was done before Redbook was made available. Wilf ignored this saying the contract could not be terminated. This is where the expensive legal bill came and the cease and desist letter.
As such the disclaimers in Redbook are made under the umbrella of the original agreement which we had proven was an invalid agreement as although created by Wilf we had requested it was written under English and Welsh law.
I will let you decide as how official it is, but I do note that Wilf maintains it was done under licence.
I am personally ok with Wilf's version of the Redbook to be circulating as long as no one is making financial gain. It is the follow ups which are using plaigarised material which I object too and Gamestuff have confirmed they are not party to them and neither is Wilf's family.
Does this answer the question.
Steve
Quote from: Karonus;758520A lot of time and expense is taken up with producing material, artwork etc but you dont have to buy the game, just dont criticise it because its not what you wanted. Thats already out there and you dont have to pay for it.
So, are you advocating downloading the copyright-infringing Red Book if I don't want the new version of the game you're producing? You do realize C&S is collectible, and therefore old copies are quite expensive...
Quote from: Brad;758525So, are you advocating downloading the copyright-infringing Red Book if I don't want the new version of the game you're producing? You do realize C&S is collectible, and therefore old copies are quite expensive...
As a publisher I cant possibly advocate downloading copyright infringing product. However I am a bit of a realist. As a supporter of animal rescues I recognise the idea that stopping all animal breeding is impossible, so the stopping of downloading of product is also impossible.
I also know how collectible C&S product is, I only have to look at how much Rebirth is on Amazon. I wish we had some stock left lol.
As I said though if you dont want the new edition then I wont force it on you. If you want to stick with 1st edition thats okay, its just that we dont have plans to re-issue it, and accept that Wilf's Redbook is out there and we cant stop it.
These discussions of old games with small but passionate audiences always make me sad — why is our community so bad at keeping these properties alive and kicking?
For starters, as often as not the authors (or other copyright holders) have what seem like really unrealistic expectations regarding the commercial viability of these projects. No one is going to do better than cover costs (if that) on any sort of 1E C&S project. The same goes for lots of old games, unless you engage with a really together company that makes a big advertising push (e.g., Metamorphosis alpha).
The best approach might be some sort of crowd sourcing or fan-club support for re-release of free versions of the original materials. The positive examples I've seen are FFE's publication of classic traveller and Moon Design's Gloranthan Classics series. This is how C&S should be reproduced.
Quote from: Karonus;758523The original tri-party agreement was that 1st and 2nd edition material would be licensed to Maple Leaf and Gamestuff along with trademarks. However, shortly after C&S Light came out a break down came about, and MLG and BGD sent a termination notice of the contract to Wilf. This was done before Redbook was made available. Wilf ignored this saying the contract could not be terminated. This is where the expensive legal bill came and the cease and desist letter.
As such the disclaimers in Redbook are made under the umbrella of the original agreement which we had proven was an invalid agreement as although created by Wilf we had requested it was written under English and Welsh law.
I will let you decide as how official it is, but I do note that Wilf maintains it was done under licence.
I am personally ok with Wilf's version of the Redbook to be circulating as long as no one is making financial gain. It is the follow ups which are using plaigarised material which I object too and Gamestuff have confirmed they are not party to them and neither is Wilf's family.
Does this answer the question.
Steve
Yes, thank you.
Quote from: Larsdangly;758533These discussions of old games with small but passionate audiences always make me sad — why is our community so bad at keeping these properties alive and kicking?
For starters, as often as not the authors (or other copyright holders) have what seem like really unrealistic expectations regarding the commercial viability of these projects. No one is going to do better than cover costs (if that) on any sort of 1E C&S project. The same goes for lots of old games, unless you engage with a really together company that makes a big advertising push (e.g., Metamorphosis alpha).
The best approach might be some sort of crowd sourcing or fan-club support for re-release of free versions of the original materials. The positive examples I've seen are FFE's publication of classic traveller and Moon Design's Gloranthan Classics series. This is how C&S should be reproduced.
WotC is releasing 5e and selling 0, B, 1, 2 collector's edition reprints as well as pdfs. In other words, having a license to many different versions of the game, they are deciding to make money off of
all of them.
Karolus you seem pretty reasonable, perhaps you guys have run the numbers and found out that if you offered via pdf all of C&S 1-5, then there might not be much of an audience for C&S6. I don't know, that may or may not be true. But, with the death of many of the industry's pioneers, there is a real sense of historical preservation of the older games authored by these people.
You also seem like a realist, you have to know that Disney's continued attempts to lock down the Mouse have given IP holders a bad name if they are not the author's of the work they hold, especially if they are seen as deliberately refusing to distribute the IP they hold so that they can release their own version, or merely increase demand. Now I'm not equating you with Disney or the people who own Conan or old Saul Zaentz, I'll simply point out that WotC undid a whole lot of PR damage and gained a lot of goodwill by releasing old product on PDFs, while making money in the process.
Quote from: Larsdangly;758533These discussions of old games with small but passionate audiences always make me sad — why is our community so bad at keeping these properties alive and kicking?
For starters, as often as not the authors (or other copyright holders) have what seem like really unrealistic expectations regarding the commercial viability of these projects. No one is going to do better than cover costs (if that) on any sort of 1E C&S project. The same goes for lots of old games, unless you engage with a really together company that makes a big advertising push (e.g., Metamorphosis alpha).
The best approach might be some sort of crowd sourcing or fan-club support for re-release of free versions of the original materials. The positive examples I've seen are FFE's publication of classic traveller and Moon Design's Gloranthan Classics series. This is how C&S should be reproduced.
Unfortunately the market is no longer the one of only 10 years ago. Even the most successful of companies struggle today. Checked out the latest accounts for another UK publisher and they are just about breaking even. Look at the recent kickstarter for Call of Cthulhu 7th edition. Only 3,668 backers for probably one of the top 5 RPG's of all time. By looking at the numbers backing kickstarter the hobby really has shrunk.
If I look at the resources involved in producing a clean C&S1 and the returns vs the time spent on other projects its a no brainer, especially as a cleaned up version is already available on the net. I realise that any product gets turned into a torrent sooner or later. I dont condone it, I would rather gamers purchase proper product but I cant stop it happening.
Quote from: CRKrueger;758546WotC is releasing 5e and selling 0, B, 1, 2 collector's edition reprints as well as pdfs. In other words, having a license to many different versions of the game, they are deciding to make money off of all of them.
Karolus you seem pretty reasonable, perhaps you guys have run the numbers and found out that if you offered via pdf all of C&S 1-5, then there might not be much of an audience for C&S6. I don't know, that may or may not be true. But, with the death of many of the industry's pioneers, there is a real sense of historical preservation of the older games authored by these people.
You also seem like a realist, you have to know that Disney's continued attempts to lock down the Mouse have given IP holders a bad name if they are not the author's of the work they hold, especially if they are seen as deliberately refusing to distribute the IP they hold so that they can release their own version, or merely increase demand. Now I'm not equating you with Disney or the people who own Conan or old Saul Zaentz, I'll simply point out that WotC undid a whole lot of PR damage and gained a lot of goodwill by releasing old product on PDFs, while making money in the process.
Thank you for your reasonable comments. I have as PDF's all of the previous editions but the morals not to profit from them. If a gamer contacts me I send them a copy. I dont wish to "sell" them even if its FOC from our page on drivethru to avoid splitting attention from the upcoming 5th.
We do have a tidied up version of B&G and S&S but stopped as we want to release updated and expanded versions.
I also would feel bad about selling them to people who already bought them in the past. WOTC selling old stuff is profiteering from the talents of staff writers twice over.
But here's an offer, if anyone is missing a PDF I will send one in return for a charitable donation to a childrens or animal charity local to yourself.
Quote from: Karonus;758568Thank you for your reasonable comments. I have as PDF's all of the previous editions but the morals not to profit from them. If a gamer contacts me I send them a copy. I dont wish to "sell" them even if its FOC from our page on drivethru to avoid splitting attention from the upcoming 5th.
In this case, I think you might be restricting yourself too much. If you do possess the rights to all the old pdfs, I don't think anyone would hold it against you to sell what you legitimately purchased. If you wanted to donate a portion of the sales to the Ed or Wilf estates, that would probably gain you even more good will.
Where is the best place to go to learn about the upcoming 5th edition, and where will it be distributed when ready?
Quote from: CRKrueger;758635In this case, I think you might be restricting yourself too much. If you do possess the rights to all the old pdfs, I don't think anyone would hold it against you to sell what you legitimately purchased. If you wanted to donate a portion of the sales to the Ed or Wilf estates, that would probably gain you even more good will.
Where is the best place to go to learn about the upcoming 5th edition, and where will it be distributed when ready?
The best place for updates is our facebook page (search for brittannia game designs). We shall launch initially on drivethrurpg with pdf and pod options. We also partner with chronicle city to supply stores.
Quote from: Karonus;758568Thank you for your reasonable comments. I have as PDF's all of the previous editions but the morals not to profit from them. If a gamer contacts me I send them a copy. I dont wish to "sell" them even if its FOC from our page on drivethru to avoid splitting attention from the upcoming 5th.
We do have a tidied up version of B&G and S&S but stopped as we want to release updated and expanded versions.
I also would feel bad about selling them to people who already bought them in the past. WOTC selling old stuff is profiteering from the talents of staff writers twice over.
But here's an offer, if anyone is missing a PDF I will send one in return for a charitable donation to a childrens or animal charity local to yourself.
That's a nice gesture. Upthread you mentioned the new version won't be politically correct could you clarify that in of incorrect assumptions being made.
Quote from: Marleycat;758657That's a nice gesture. Upthread you mentioned the new version won't be politically correct could you clarify that in of incorrect assumptions being made.
Ok then. C&S 5 will have two elements one will be more historical with only illusion, summoning and divination allowed. Jewish characters experience reduced social status outside their enclaves and female characters will find restricted roles. The second will allow the more wide reaching fantasy elements. We will look to include the three religions of the book and will show how enlightened islam was. Piety is being replaced by spirit to allow rules for the use of sins and repentence (and later allow better treatment of other religions). These sins will include a wide range of sins Including fornication with beasts and same sex. They are all sins historically recorded with appropriate penance.
Quote from: Karonus;758659Ok then. C&S 5 will have two elements one will be more historical with only illusion, summoning and divination allowed. Jewish characters experience reduced social status outside their enclaves and female characters will find restricted roles. The second will allow the more wide reaching fantasy elements. We will look to include the three religions of the book and will show how enlightened islam was. Piety is being replaced by spirit to allow rules for the use of sins and repentence (and later allow better treatment of other religions). These sins will include a wide range of sins Including fornication with beasts and same sex. They are all sins historically recorded with appropriate penance.
That sounds much better than women are pretty or whatever just because line that was in 1ed. That was offensive but what you're doing is or should be expected by anybody playing a game as simulationist and quasi-historical as 5ed. You have me interested again.
Thanks for coming on the board and letting us know what's going on. Is your new edition going to continue the glorious convoluted magic system?
Quote from: ligedog;758697Thanks for coming on the board and letting us know what's going on. Is your new edition going to continue the glorious convoluted magic system?
I loved it even though I don't think I actually understood it.:)
Quote from: Marleycat;758738I loved it even though I don't think I actually understood it.:)
Once I worked it out it was glorious
So the 864 page version of the Red Book is a no-no. Interesting...
Quote from: ptingler;758273Yes, because an anonymous poster on a forum is much more reliable.
:rotfl:
Much better said than I'd have done.
Quote from: ligedog;758697Thanks for coming on the board and letting us know what's going on. Is your new edition going to continue the glorious convoluted magic system?
We are continuing the development of the magic system in Rebirth. Although this came out of third edition initially it was tweaked in Rebirth with the addition of many items from earlier editions such as the laws of magic. Also, to help make the system a little more playable for those who dont have Rebirth we actually gave the rules for the spell used to enchant materials to reduce magic resistance. We also gave more options to allow Mages to create complex spells merging spells from different methods into a greater spell.
In 5th edition we are going through the system to remove inconsistencies so it becomes more rational. (I used to like playing Mages in 2nd, especially Power Word Mages, hence some attention to the system.)
I suspect you are already committed to a certain design at this point, but I encourage you to draw heavily on 1E magic, perhaps re-engineering some of the resolution mechanics so it is faster and more comprehensible. The idiosyncratic, flavorful magic of 1E was arguably the best thing about it. One of the very few cases in game design history where a set of rules made you feel like you were poring over an actual book of magical principles and spells.
Quote from: Larsdangly;759092I suspect you are already committed to a certain design at this point, but I encourage you to draw heavily on 1E magic, perhaps re-engineering some of the resolution mechanics so it is faster and more comprehensible. The idiosyncratic, flavorful magic of 1E was arguably the best thing about it. One of the very few cases in game design history where a set of rules made you feel like you were poring over an actual book of magical principles and spells.
Do you have 4th edition (Rebirth) ? If not then here is one of the skills that a mage requires. Rebirth goes beyond 3rd and with the Laws (Law of Personalities - allows a bonus of +10% to targeting) expands on what 3rd had.
Spell Research
Attributes: Intellect x 2
Level: DF 4; BCS 30%; 600 Exp; 6 SKP
This skill allows a Magus to learn new spells by researching them in books and scrolls. The character needs access to a library containing works on Sorcery. Not all libraries contain such books. The books must contain treatises on the Method of Magic he is researching. For example, if he is researching an Illusion spell, the library must contain one or more works specifically on Illusions, not just writings on Magic in general or on some other Method(s) of Magic.
If a specialist Magus has access to a library, and if there is a book or scroll on the Method of Magick he is researching, he requires (13 — ML (
Magic Level which is derived from your PMF)) x MR (
Magic Resistance the same as BMR) days of the particular spell he is searching for information on in order to try to learn the spell.
If a Hex Master or a Power Word Mage does not have access to a book they may still undertake magical research but it will take much longer. They will need to (21 — ML) x MR days researching the particular spell they are searching for.
A non-Magus needs a book and 10 days x MR to do his research.
At the end of the time required, he must make a successful Spell Research roll and the Crit Die roll must be equal to or higher than the MR of the particular spell that is being researched. A success means he finds enough informa¬tion to start learning Basic Knowledge in the spell, after which he can start reducing its MR to make it fully his to cast and control.
Druids have an oral tradition and do not use books to record their Lore. However, in addition to learning from a Master (Druids have an oral tradi¬tion), they can also consult the Sacred Trees, which are effectively Druidic "libraries". Druids may visit a Sacred Tree and use Read Oghams, a written form of Mage Speech that is only taught to Druids. Research consists of meditating upon the significance, etc., of the Oghams, which may be carved amidst pictograms
All I have to contribute here is that, having done most of my education in Alberta, I can testify that there was a curious and tiny community of diehard C&S fans stalking the local gaming stores until as late as the mid-90s. They would often talk about how much better the game was than D&D, and most of them had met the author (Simbalist?) in person. They didn't seem very good at recruiting new converts, however.
Yeah, C&S always struck me as one of those games which gathers a select little fanbase of its own who are very, very dedicate to that particular game and don't have much contact with the wider RPG community.
Quote from: Warthur;760089Yeah, C&S always struck me as one of those games which gathers a select little fanbase of its own who are very, very dedicate to that particular game and don't have much contact with the wider RPG community.
As opposed to the players of every other game that isn't currently being actively published?
Quote from: CRKrueger;760137As opposed to the players of every other game that isn't currently being actively published?
What's your point again?
Quote from: Marleycat;760194What's your point again?
Oh how cute, you're stalking me now.
Warthur Said, with possible loaded language (bolded for emphasis):
Quote from: Warthur;760089Yeah, C&S always struck me as one of those games which gathers a select little fanbase of its own who are very, very dedicate to that particular game and don't have much contact with the wider RPG community.
In other words, closeted fanatics. I was just pointing out that any game not in print that has fans can fit that description.
Quote from: CRKrueger;760137As opposed to the players of every other game that isn't currently being actively published?
I think that the 1970's/19980's were different in kind; RPGs were extremely popular so people could sort into very fine system preferences. The average age seemed to be a lot younger and so I suspect that people had a lot more time.
So I suspect that these clusters tended to be a feature of older eras. Today, a niche game that stops being published seems to fade from view a lot faster.
Quote from: CRKrueger;760137As opposed to the players of every other game that isn't currently being actively published?
Nah, the impression I had was that it was much the same when the game was actively being published: there was a core of people who got very, very into it but it didn't seem to get much traction beyond them. Kind of like Palladium Books; they must have a substantial and active fanbase because they're still in business and merrily putting out product, but I've literally never met a single fan of their work offline.
Quote from: CRKrueger;760211Oh how cute, you're stalking me now.
It was a legitimate question given Warthur didn't say anything that remarkable for you to get all faux enraged about. C&S is a very niche game with very loyal fans what's wrong with that?
What I'd like to see is the new edition be OGL. It would mix nicely with Runequest (under the name of Legend) being OGL.
Quote from: Marleycat;760273It was a legitimate question given Warthur didn't say anything that remarkable for you to get all faux enraged about. C&S is a very niche game with very loyal fans what's wrong with that?
Hon, now your trolling has become a little too obvious, anyone who's been here a while knows that if I get enraged, faux or not...
Quote from: MeAs opposed to the players of every other game that isn't currently being actively published?
...is not what that looks like.
If all you're going to do is follow every single one of my posts basically saying nothing more then "CRKrueger does not get an opinion because he disagreed with me and dammit my posts are worth more." you should at least make them not appear so pathetically transparent as such. ;)
EDIT: Oh and to answer your question, nothing's wrong with that, but that isn't what he said, either.
Quote from: Warthur;760249there was a core of people who got very, very into it but it didn't seem to get much traction beyond them.
You realize you just defined a hobby, right? NFL Football - there is a group of people who get very, very into it but it doesn't seem to get much traction beyond them. Model Trains, Saltwater Fish, Cave Diving, Bow Hunting, Auto-erotic asphyxiation, etc...
Never met a gamer who played a Palladium game, where do you live?
On the West Coast, people who were into D&D bought or read Dragon, where just about every other game company had advertisements, and those games got bought and used. On the FGU front, I played Bushido and Villains and Vigilantes, but people played C&S. The reason I didn't play that game was because they had too many people really playing as it was.
Compared to D&D all the FGU games were more crunchy, so they had a smaller audience, same with Rolemaster and Harnmaster, but you would be stretching to say that they had "little contact with the wider RPG community".
Of course after...
1e went OOP...
2e went OOP and company changed...
3e went OOP and company changed...
Both original authors died...
Yeah, little bit of a disconnect from the people who don't play.
Of course, people used to say the exact same thing about AD&D 1e and still do.
It isn't easy to understand a game like C&S unless you were into the scene ca. 1976-7, when D&D was starting to blow up and lots of people knew about it, and there was a big urge to make games that were intended to be direct responses to it, where one or two major things were changed to transform it in some way. This is basically where Runequest, T&T and C&S were coming from. There are now so many games and so many shades fine shades of gray that it these games just seem like part of the pointless infinitude of game design at this stage.