Quote from: Karonus;758507We are working on a 5th edition and looking to add back even more of 1st and 2nd edition (or those parts we can legally - I am not paying exorbitant license fees to include Tolkein material).   It will be a skillskape system but will include a blows combat system for example.  We will be allowing Jewish characters for the first time and will not be politically correct.  At the moment it will a 500 page hardback monster and examples can be seen on our facebook page.

So basically what you're saying is that you will produce Yet Another version of C&S that doesn't meet the original vision of the game. Why not simply publish a legal, cleaned up version of the 1st edition? I'd buy that. Change hobbit to halfling and balrog to balor...done.

Quote from: Brad;758512So basically what you're saying is that you will produce Yet Another version of C&S that doesn't meet the original vision of the game. Why not simply publish a legal, cleaned up version of the 1st edition? I'd buy that. Change hobbit to halfling and balrog to balor...done.

The same reason that WOTC are producing D&D5.  The game develops, there are some things that cant be included.  If you dont want a new edition fine continue to use 1st edition.  In the same way I didnt buy into Pathfinder because I had most of the AD&D 2nd ed back catalogue.  There will be quite a lot of 1st and 2nd edition that will be cleaned up and included.  We could almost certainly use Balor but it wouldnt be a bat winged demon with a fiery whip (Hasbro would sue our arse) but it would be a giant with an eye in the middle of the forehead and one directly opposite in the back of the head.  Where there is something from the saga's that we can use we will, as we did with Dwarves Companion.

Its like asking a Traveller Player which edition do they prefer playing, personally I prefer classic.

A lot of time and expense is taken up with producing material, artwork etc but you dont have to buy the game, just dont criticise it because its not what you wanted.  Thats already out there and you dont have to pay for it.

We want to put out what we have as a vision for C&S now, not what was 30 years ago.  I was a 2nd edition player and fan and thats the feel I want to put back.  Rebirth was a stepping stone to start putting right some of the things from 3rd.  Now Ed was involved in both 3rd and Rebirth so how it can be slagged off for not involving the original writers I dont know.

We will never please everyone as to what goes into a game, all I know is that its a great way to lose money, not as bad as gambling but as much as I spend on the hobby in other ways.

Steve

Steve, your clarifications didn't address the primary issue at hand in this thread. There is no question that the Red Books after the 2000 release by Gamestuff are infringements. Is the 2000 release by Gamestuff a legally released product?

Quote from: ptingler;758522Steve, your clarifications didn't address the primary issue at hand in this thread. There is no question that the Red Books after the 2000 release by Gamestuff are infringements. Is the 2000 release by Gamestuff a legally released product?

The original tri-party agreement was that 1st and 2nd edition material would be licensed to Maple Leaf and Gamestuff along with trademarks.  However, shortly after C&S Light came out a break down came about, and MLG and BGD sent a termination notice of the contract to Wilf. This was done before Redbook was made available.  Wilf ignored this saying the contract could not be terminated.  This is where the expensive legal bill came and the cease and desist letter.

As such the disclaimers in Redbook are made under the umbrella of the original agreement which we had proven was an invalid agreement as although created by Wilf we had requested it was written under English and Welsh law.

I will let you decide as how official it is, but I do note that Wilf maintains it was done under licence.

I am personally ok with Wilf's version of the Redbook to be circulating as long as no one is making financial gain.  It is the follow ups which are using plaigarised material which I object too and Gamestuff have confirmed they are not party to them and neither is Wilf's family.

Does this answer the question.

Steve

Quote from: Karonus;758520A lot of time and expense is taken up with producing material, artwork etc but you dont have to buy the game, just dont criticise it because its not what you wanted.  Thats already out there and you dont have to pay for it.

So, are you advocating downloading the copyright-infringing Red Book if I don't want the new version of the game you're producing? You do realize C&S is collectible, and therefore old copies are quite expensive...

Quote from: Brad;758525So, are you advocating downloading the copyright-infringing Red Book if I don't want the new version of the game you're producing? You do realize C&S is collectible, and therefore old copies are quite expensive...

As a publisher I cant possibly advocate downloading copyright infringing product.  However I am a bit of a realist.  As a supporter of animal rescues I recognise the idea that stopping all animal breeding is impossible, so the stopping of downloading of product is also impossible.

I also know how collectible C&S product is, I only have to look at how much Rebirth is on Amazon.  I wish we had some stock left lol.

As I said though if you dont want the new edition then I wont force it on you.  If you want to stick with 1st edition thats okay, its just that we dont have plans to re-issue it, and accept that Wilf's Redbook is out there and we cant stop it.

These discussions of old games with small but passionate audiences always make me sad — why is our community so bad at keeping these properties alive and kicking?

For starters, as often as not the authors (or other copyright holders) have what seem like really unrealistic expectations regarding the commercial viability of these projects. No one is going to do better than cover costs (if that) on any sort of 1E C&S project. The same goes for lots of old games, unless you engage with a really together company that makes a big advertising push (e.g., Metamorphosis alpha).

The best approach might be some sort of crowd sourcing or fan-club support for re-release of free versions of the original materials. The positive examples I've seen are FFE's publication of classic traveller and Moon Design's Gloranthan Classics series. This is how C&S should be reproduced.

Quote from: Karonus;758523The original tri-party agreement was that 1st and 2nd edition material would be licensed to Maple Leaf and Gamestuff along with trademarks.  However, shortly after C&S Light came out a break down came about, and MLG and BGD sent a termination notice of the contract to Wilf. This was done before Redbook was made available.  Wilf ignored this saying the contract could not be terminated.  This is where the expensive legal bill came and the cease and desist letter.

As such the disclaimers in Redbook are made under the umbrella of the original agreement which we had proven was an invalid agreement as although created by Wilf we had requested it was written under English and Welsh law.

I will let you decide as how official it is, but I do note that Wilf maintains it was done under licence.

I am personally ok with Wilf's version of the Redbook to be circulating as long as no one is making financial gain.  It is the follow ups which are using plaigarised material which I object too and Gamestuff have confirmed they are not party to them and neither is Wilf's family.

Does this answer the question.

Steve

Yes, thank you.

Quote from: Larsdangly;758533These discussions of old games with small but passionate audiences always make me sad — why is our community so bad at keeping these properties alive and kicking?

For starters, as often as not the authors (or other copyright holders) have what seem like really unrealistic expectations regarding the commercial viability of these projects. No one is going to do better than cover costs (if that) on any sort of 1E C&S project. The same goes for lots of old games, unless you engage with a really together company that makes a big advertising push (e.g., Metamorphosis alpha).

The best approach might be some sort of crowd sourcing or fan-club support for re-release of free versions of the original materials. The positive examples I've seen are FFE's publication of classic traveller and Moon Design's Gloranthan Classics series. This is how C&S should be reproduced.

WotC is releasing 5e and selling 0, B, 1, 2 collector's edition reprints as well as pdfs.  In other words, having a license to many different versions of the game, they are deciding to make money off of all of them.

Karolus you seem pretty reasonable, perhaps you guys have run the numbers and found out that if you offered via pdf all of C&S 1-5, then there might not be much of an audience for C&S6.  I don't know, that may or may not be true.  But, with the death of many of the industry's pioneers, there is a real sense of historical preservation of the older games authored by these people.

You also seem like a realist, you have to know that Disney's continued attempts to lock down the Mouse have given IP holders a bad name if they are not the author's of the work they hold, especially if they are seen as deliberately refusing to distribute the IP they hold so that they can release their own version, or merely increase demand.  Now I'm not equating you with Disney or the people who own Conan or old Saul Zaentz, I'll simply point out that WotC undid a whole lot of PR damage and gained a lot of goodwill by releasing old product on PDFs, while making money in the process.

Quote from: Larsdangly;758533These discussions of old games with small but passionate audiences always make me sad — why is our community so bad at keeping these properties alive and kicking?

For starters, as often as not the authors (or other copyright holders) have what seem like really unrealistic expectations regarding the commercial viability of these projects. No one is going to do better than cover costs (if that) on any sort of 1E C&S project. The same goes for lots of old games, unless you engage with a really together company that makes a big advertising push (e.g., Metamorphosis alpha).

The best approach might be some sort of crowd sourcing or fan-club support for re-release of free versions of the original materials. The positive examples I've seen are FFE's publication of classic traveller and Moon Design's Gloranthan Classics series. This is how C&S should be reproduced.

Unfortunately the market is no longer the one of only 10 years ago.  Even the most successful of companies struggle today.  Checked out the latest accounts for another UK publisher and they are just about breaking even.  Look at the recent kickstarter for Call of Cthulhu 7th edition.  Only 3,668 backers for probably one of the top 5 RPG's of all time.  By looking at the numbers backing kickstarter the hobby really has shrunk.  

If I look at the resources involved in producing a clean C&S1 and the returns vs the time spent on other projects its a no brainer, especially as a cleaned up version is already available on the net.  I realise that any product gets turned into a torrent sooner or later.  I dont condone it, I would rather gamers purchase proper product but I cant stop it happening.

Quote from: CRKrueger;758546WotC is releasing 5e and selling 0, B, 1, 2 collector's edition reprints as well as pdfs.  In other words, having a license to many different versions of the game, they are deciding to make money off of all of them.

Karolus you seem pretty reasonable, perhaps you guys have run the numbers and found out that if you offered via pdf all of C&S 1-5, then there might not be much of an audience for C&S6.  I don't know, that may or may not be true.  But, with the death of many of the industry's pioneers, there is a real sense of historical preservation of the older games authored by these people.

You also seem like a realist, you have to know that Disney's continued attempts to lock down the Mouse have given IP holders a bad name if they are not the author's of the work they hold, especially if they are seen as deliberately refusing to distribute the IP they hold so that they can release their own version, or merely increase demand.  Now I'm not equating you with Disney or the people who own Conan or old Saul Zaentz, I'll simply point out that WotC undid a whole lot of PR damage and gained a lot of goodwill by releasing old product on PDFs, while making money in the process.

Thank you for your reasonable comments.  I have as PDF's all of the previous editions but the morals not to profit from them.  If a gamer contacts me I send them a copy.  I dont wish to "sell" them even if its FOC from our page on drivethru to avoid splitting attention from the upcoming 5th.

We do have a tidied up version of B&G and S&S but stopped as we want to release updated and expanded versions.  

I also would feel bad about selling them to people who already bought them in the past.  WOTC selling old stuff is profiteering from the talents of staff writers twice over.

But here's an offer, if anyone is missing a PDF I will send one in return for a charitable donation to a childrens or animal charity local to yourself.

Quote from: Karonus;758568Thank you for your reasonable comments.  I have as PDF's all of the previous editions but the morals not to profit from them.  If a gamer contacts me I send them a copy.  I dont wish to "sell" them even if its FOC from our page on drivethru to avoid splitting attention from the upcoming 5th.

In this case, I think you might be restricting yourself too much.  If you do possess the rights to all the old pdfs, I don't think anyone would hold it against you to sell what you legitimately purchased.  If you wanted to donate a portion of the sales to the Ed or Wilf estates, that would probably gain you even more good will.

Where is the best place to go to learn about the upcoming 5th edition, and where will it be distributed when ready?

Quote from: CRKrueger;758635In this case, I think you might be restricting yourself too much.  If you do possess the rights to all the old pdfs, I don't think anyone would hold it against you to sell what you legitimately purchased.  If you wanted to donate a portion of the sales to the Ed or Wilf estates, that would probably gain you even more good will.

Where is the best place to go to learn about the upcoming 5th edition, and where will it be distributed when ready?

The best place for updates is our facebook page (search for brittannia game designs). We shall launch initially on drivethrurpg with pdf and pod options.  We also partner with chronicle city to supply stores.

Quote from: Karonus;758568Thank you for your reasonable comments.  I have as PDF's all of the previous editions but the morals not to profit from them.  If a gamer contacts me I send them a copy.  I dont wish to "sell" them even if its FOC from our page on drivethru to avoid splitting attention from the upcoming 5th.

We do have a tidied up version of B&G and S&S but stopped as we want to release updated and expanded versions.  

I also would feel bad about selling them to people who already bought them in the past.  WOTC selling old stuff is profiteering from the talents of staff writers twice over.

But here's an offer, if anyone is missing a PDF I will send one in return for a charitable donation to a childrens or animal charity local to yourself.

That's a nice gesture. Upthread you mentioned the new version won't be politically correct could you clarify that in of incorrect assumptions being made.

Quote from: Marleycat;758657That's a nice gesture. Upthread you mentioned the new version won't be politically correct could you clarify that in of incorrect assumptions being made.

Ok then. C&S 5 will have two elements one will be more historical with only illusion, summoning and divination allowed.  Jewish characters experience reduced social status outside their enclaves and female characters will find restricted roles. The second will allow the more wide reaching fantasy elements.  We will look to include the three religions of the book and will show how enlightened islam was.  Piety is being replaced by spirit to allow rules for the use of sins and repentence (and later allow better treatment of other religions).  These sins will include a wide range of sins Including fornication with beasts and same sex.  They are all sins historically recorded with appropriate penance.