Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on August 27, 2022, 03:38:29 PM
Hey GeekyBugle, I'm not trying to tell you what to do but what I do with deadDMwalking is if I see a post by them I don't even read it. I just scroll on past. I've categorized them as one of the few trolls on this site that pretend they're being reasonable but....they're not. Really will help the blood pressure. And while I don't actively want to see them go away it might help them realize that they're really just being contrary because they like the attention they get. Or maybe they do like the attention they get. But it doesn't matter really.

Not to worry, my blood pressure doesn't rise a bit. And their dishonesty needs to be adressed.

Quote from: 3catcircus on August 27, 2022, 09:09:38 AM

Quote from: wmarshal on August 27, 2022, 08:41:05 AM

Quote from: 3catcircus on August 27, 2022, 08:29:00 AM

Quote from: FingerRod on August 27, 2022, 08:15:13 AM

Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 26, 2022, 08:10:40 PM
I think refusing to imagine what it might be like as someone with different life-experiences or skin color does sound a little intolerant.

No, it is not. These are roleplaying games. Not wanting to think about these topics on game night does not make a person intolerant.

An example of intolerance would be wanting to control when and what a person thinks, and then labeling them when they resist or fail to comply.

Oh, kind of like what the author of Coyote and Crow did when trying to shame people into buying his game just to line his pockets even if they don't want to buy it?

How dare you! Coyote and Crow is offering to sell you an indulgence to free your white soul* from Woke Hell!

(*Apparently only white souls suffer from the original sin of being oppressive. However, the Woke can categorize people of Jewish and Asian descent as being white at their convenience.)

Inorite...

What a lot of people in the US (and other 1st world Western nations) completely fail to understand is just how non-racist we are as compared to the rest of the world. Going out of your way to proclaim racism when it doesn't actually exist is a 1st world problem.

I saw a recent tweet by an African-American.  It was along the lines of "I own two houses and am a pilot living my dream career; if this is oppression, give me more of it."

When a minority college student or activist claims oppression due to systemic racism, all you have to do to fuck up that world view is point out that if systemic racism actually existed, they never would have been allowed to even apply to college or been allowed up on their soapbox.

Real racism? Ask the hutu and tutsi survivors. Go try and enter a no-gaijin bar or restaurant in Japan. Experience being ignored as the locals skip ahead of you at a deli counter in Seoul. Go try and illegally enter Mexico from Guatemala on your way to illegally enter the US. Go be a Filipino or Bangladeshi worker in Saudi or Qatar.

This post is off topic to this forum. This is a formal warning. Post off topic again and you could be banned.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on August 27, 2022, 03:26:07 PM

Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 27, 2022, 03:14:12 PM
You quoting him saying what I say he's saying just reaffirms what he's saying.  If you don't want to play the game because you're uncomfortable pretending to be a POC he thinks that's racist.  If you don't want to play for any other reason, he doesn't think that is racist.

I know it goes against your pretend narrative but he clearly says that if you are concerened about being accused of cutural appropriation that you are being "a little racist". Which is disingenuous since playing a Native American character in ANY OTHER GAME would get you accused of cultural appropriation as I and others have shown.

Of course that racists accusation is on top of the one where you are racists if you don't want to play a Native American character in a game.

Different people have different opinions about what constitutes "racist". That doesn't make the author Connor Alexander disingenuous or hypocritical. He has an opinion, and tries to make it clear. Other people here on this forum are calling him racist for that, and likewise, there will be other left-leaning and/or woke people who also disagree.

Celebrities like Matt Mercer who depend on their popularity for a living have to tread carefully about a lot of topics to keep their high popularity. But for ordinary gamers, it's not a big deal.

I've played and run lots of characters of Native American and other different ethnicities for years, running games at SF Bay area conventions which is woke central. I haven't had any significant problems. Someone somewhere has probably called me racist at points, but for me that isn't the end of the world. It's just them expressing their opinion. I get called worse than that all the time here on this forum.

More broadly than my personal experience, I feel like people who want to play games are happy to try out Native American and other non-European characters in games. Then there is a set of the perpetually outraged, which includes some people on the left but also plenty of people on this forum who are constantly outraged over judging the politics of games instead of playing what is enjoyable.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 27, 2022, 03:58:02 PM

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on August 27, 2022, 03:38:29 PM
Hey GeekyBugle, I'm not trying to tell you what to do but what I do with deadDMwalking is if I see a post by them I don't even read it. I just scroll on past. I've categorized them as one of the few trolls on this site that pretend they're being reasonable but....they're not. Really will help the blood pressure. And while I don't actively want to see them go away it might help them realize that they're really just being contrary because they like the attention they get. Or maybe they do like the attention they get. But it doesn't matter really.

Not to worry, my blood pressure doesn't rise a bit. And their dishonesty needs to be adressed.

Bien, bien. Carry on hombre.

Quote from: jhkim on August 27, 2022, 08:51:51 PM
I've played and run lots of characters of Native American and other different ethnicities for years, running games at SF Bay area conventions which is woke central. I haven't had any significant problems. Someone somewhere has probably called me racist at points, but for me that isn't the end of the world. It's just them expressing their opinion. I get called worse than that all the time here on this forum.

Couple questions..

Receipts on what was bolded? Should have no problem producing multiple examples being called something worse than a racist.

Second, do you own and have you played C&C?

Quote from: FingerRod on August 27, 2022, 10:42:56 PM

Quote from: jhkim on August 27, 2022, 08:51:51 PM
I've played and run lots of characters of Native American and other different ethnicities for years, running games at SF Bay area conventions which is woke central. I haven't had any significant problems. Someone somewhere has probably called me racist at points, but for me that isn't the end of the world. It's just them expressing their opinion. I get called worse than that all the time here on this forum.

Couple questions..

Receipts on what was bolded? Should have no problem producing multiple examples being called something worse than a racist.

Second, do you own and have you played C&C?

Answering the second first. I didn't participate in the Kickstarter, but I have a copy of C&C that I got from my son. I've read about a scattered quarter of it - intro, a bit of background, chargen, action resolution, and the sample adventure and characters.

As for the first, looking over Pundit's forum, I was called a "genocide apologist" and "piece of shit" in the covid lockdowns thread (ref), and in the balkanization thread I was supposedly "a-okay with racial discrimination if it's against whitey" (ref).

Quote from: jhkim on August 28, 2022, 12:10:53 PM

Quote from: FingerRod on August 27, 2022, 10:42:56 PM

Quote from: jhkim on August 27, 2022, 08:51:51 PM
I've played and run lots of characters of Native American and other different ethnicities for years, running games at SF Bay area conventions which is woke central. I haven't had any significant problems. Someone somewhere has probably called me racist at points, but for me that isn't the end of the world. It's just them expressing their opinion. I get called worse than that all the time here on this forum.

Couple questions..

Receipts on what was bolded? Should have no problem producing multiple examples being called something worse than a racist.

Second, do you own and have you played C&C?

Answering the second first. I didn't participate in the Kickstarter, but I have a copy of C&C that I got from my son. I've read about a scattered quarter of it - intro, a bit of background, chargen, action resolution, and the sample adventure and characters.

As for the first, looking over Pundit's forum, I was called a "genocide apologist" and "piece of shit" in the covid lockdowns thread (ref), and in the balkanization thread I was supposedly "a-okay with racial discrimination if it's against whitey" (ref).

Thanks for answering my questions. So you are way ahead of me if you own the source material. I have only see the screenshots and the quotes. I cannot speak to what is in the product. I can speak to the public comments and practices of the owner. Based on those public comments, the title of this thread is not hyperbole. Well, I'm not sure if he has any regrets, as I am not in his head. But he did go around calling people the racists or "a little racist".

The inconsistency for me is with you claiming to be called worse than racist 'all the time' while defending what is clearly unhinged behavior from the creator of C&C. I have noticed that you have pretty thick skin and we've even locked it up a couple times. But I have not observed you routinely (as in all the time) being called things worse than racist.

I also cannot look through 250+ and 50+ Page threads to find the exact quotes and context, but I'll take all three instances at your word. The problem is, only one of them would be 'worse' than a racist, specifically, being called a genocidal apologist. Saying you are okay with discrimination is, at best, the same as racist. Being called a piece of shit is no where close.

Plus, your examples come from a non-gaming context in the non-gaming forum. Generally speaking, I avoid those topics. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes and all of that. But, C&C is talking to gamers about games. There should be a higher standard when addressing your customers.

That said, you do a remarkable job keeping your cool, and you deserve that same behavior in return. I will do my best to match you there.

Hey, FingerRod.

I think one problem here is that the label "racist" is used in vastly different ways. Sometimes, "racist" is used to imply someone who is explicitly a white supremacist. On the other hand, sometimes it's used for as little as unconscious bias - like being unconsciously somewhat less likely to say yes to a resume based on race, or less likely to make friends of another race.

So in retrospect, I shouldn't have talked about how often I get called worse than "racist" here - because I don't think that has a clear meaning.

To be more specific, to take from the opinion piece linked from the original post, suppose someone doesn't want to roleplay Native American characters, because they're Native American. That's not the equivalent of being a white supremacist. It's parallel to not liking movies that star Native Americans or novels written by them. Some would argue that it's a sign of prejudice, but the person might also defend that it's just a preference in entertainment and doesn't impact real-world people.

Quote from: FingerRod on August 29, 2022, 03:59:27 PM
So you are way ahead of me if you own the source material. I have only see the screenshots and the quotes. I cannot speak to what is in the product. I can speak to the public comments and practices of the owner. Based on those public comments, the title of this thread is not hyperbole. Well, I'm not sure if he has any regrets, as I am not in his head. But he did go around calling people the racists or "a little racist".

The inconsistency for me is with you claiming to be called worse than racist 'all the time' while defending what is clearly unhinged behavior from the creator of C&C. I have noticed that you have pretty thick skin and we've even locked it up a couple times. But I have not observed you routinely (as in all the time) being called things worse than racist.

In general, I have a thick skin (as you put it) - and I don't game for politics. I game for fun and interest. I have political causes, but I pursue them through avenues other than my gaming.

So in terms of my gaming, I don't much care what the C&C creator's politics are. I know that many people here choose their games based on the politics of the creator (hence Ocule's green/yellow/red lists), but that's not how I approach things. For me, I consider it inefficient in terms of gaining my political goals. I'll game to be creative and have fun, and I'll pursue politics on its own time.

Quote from: jhkim on August 31, 2022, 09:18:28 PM
Hey, FingerRod.

I think one problem here is that the label "racist" is used in vastly different ways. Sometimes, "racist" is used to imply someone who is explicitly a white supremacist. On the other hand, sometimes it's used for as little as unconscious bias - like being unconsciously somewhat less likely to say yes to a resume based on race, or less likely to make friends of another race.

So in retrospect, I shouldn't have talked about how often I get called worse than "racist" here - because I don't think that has a clear meaning.

To be more specific, to take from the opinion piece linked from the original post, suppose someone doesn't want to roleplay Native American characters, because they're Native American. That's not the equivalent of being a white supremacist. It's parallel to not liking movies that star Native Americans or novels written by them. Some would argue that it's a sign of prejudice, but the person might also defend that it's just a preference in entertainment and doesn't impact real-world people.

Quote from: FingerRod on August 29, 2022, 03:59:27 PM
So you are way ahead of me if you own the source material. I have only see the screenshots and the quotes. I cannot speak to what is in the product. I can speak to the public comments and practices of the owner. Based on those public comments, the title of this thread is not hyperbole. Well, I'm not sure if he has any regrets, as I am not in his head. But he did go around calling people the racists or "a little racist".

The inconsistency for me is with you claiming to be called worse than racist 'all the time' while defending what is clearly unhinged behavior from the creator of C&C. I have noticed that you have pretty thick skin and we've even locked it up a couple times. But I have not observed you routinely (as in all the time) being called things worse than racist.

In general, I have a thick skin (as you put it) - and I don't game for politics. I game for fun and interest. I have political causes, but I pursue them through avenues other than my gaming.

So in terms of my gaming, I don't much care what the C&C creator's politics are. I know that many people here choose their games based on the politics of the creator (hence Ocule's green/yellow/red lists), but that's not how I approach things. For me, I consider it inefficient in terms of gaining my political goals. I'll game to be creative and have fun, and I'll pursue politics on its own time.

Something NO ONE can prove it exists.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 31, 2022, 09:20:00 PM
Something NO ONE can prove it exists.

What standard of evidence are you looking for?  There's a well documented bias for people that seem similar to us.  Why Do We Like People Who Are Similar to Us?
Research examines why we prefer people who are similar to us.
If you prefer people who are similar to you, conversely, you will not prefer people who are different from you.  How is that different from 'unconscious bias'? 

I received my copy of the core book on Sunday and I've been writing a review on the gaming den.  The focus there tends to be on the mechanics, but overall, I think the game does what it sets out to do.  It's playable as written; the dice mechanics are workable (if a bit gimmicky); there are some optimization options that are probably 'too good' but if groups agree to avoid those I think it can be a fun game and could be for some groups THE RPG that they play (as opposed to one of many that they jump to and from).  It's relatively rules-light, and there are a couple of areas in the rules that lack clarity or appear to contradict other rules, but by and large they're minor.   

Quote from: jhkim on August 31, 2022, 09:18:28 PM
I don't game for politics. I game for fun and interest. I have political causes, but I pursue them through avenues other than my gaming.

So in terms of my gaming, I don't much care what the C&C creator's politics are. I know that many people here choose their games based on the politics of the creator (hence Ocule's green/yellow/red lists), but that's not how I approach things. For me, I consider it inefficient in terms of gaining my political goals. I'll game to be creative and have fun, and I'll pursue politics on its own time.

Reality is a complete inversion of what you say. Most posters on here don't game for politics, which is precisely why they generally avoid games that promote extreme politics (e.g. MYFAROG, Coyote & Crow - both as racist as each other in my book). They do not choose games based on the politics of the creators, but do avoid those that promote extreme views that promote division and hate.

Quote from: Skullking on September 01, 2022, 09:26:00 AM

Quote from: jhkim on August 31, 2022, 09:18:28 PM
I don't game for politics. I game for fun and interest. I have political causes, but I pursue them through avenues other than my gaming.

So in terms of my gaming, I don't much care what the C&C creator's politics are. I know that many people here choose their games based on the politics of the creator (hence Ocule's green/yellow/red lists), but that's not how I approach things. For me, I consider it inefficient in terms of gaining my political goals. I'll game to be creative and have fun, and I'll pursue politics on its own time.

Reality is a complete inversion of what you say. Most posters on here don't game for politics, which is precisely why they generally avoid games that promote extreme politics (e.g. MYFAROG, Coyote & Crow - both as racist as each other in my book). They do not choose games based on the politics of the creators, but do avoid those that promote extreme views that promote division and hate.

We're not a monolith here - posters have a lot of different views. I didn't talk about "most", just "many". Some posters are like me and care about the content inside the game.

However, I think there are many posters who care about the politics of the creators. Maybe not most posters, but a significant fraction. There are often threads about a social media post by a creator that get a lot of attention.

Quote from: jhkim on August 31, 2022, 09:18:28 PM

I think one problem here is that the label "racist" is used in vastly different ways. Sometimes, "racist" is used to imply someone who is explicitly a white supremacist. On the other hand, sometimes it's used for as little as unconscious bias - like being unconsciously somewhat less likely to say yes to a resume based on race, or less likely to make friends of another race.

So in retrospect, I shouldn't have talked about how often I get called worse than "racist" here - because I don't think that has a clear meaning.

So, you are implying that the worst kind of racist is a white supremacist? Everything else is just a minor misconception based on stereotypes because only caucasians can be such vile racists?

Quote from: jeff37923 on September 01, 2022, 05:57:45 PM

Quote from: jhkim on August 31, 2022, 09:18:28 PM
I think one problem here is that the label "racist" is used in vastly different ways. Sometimes, "racist" is used to imply someone who is explicitly a white supremacist. On the other hand, sometimes it's used for as little as unconscious bias - like being unconsciously somewhat less likely to say yes to a resume based on race, or less likely to make friends of another race.

So in retrospect, I shouldn't have talked about how often I get called worse than "racist" here - because I don't think that has a clear meaning.

So, you are implying that the worst kind of racist is a white supremacist? Everything else is just a minor misconception based on stereotypes because only caucasians can be such vile racists?

Not at all. As I said, racism can mean many different things. I gave self-identified white supremacists as one example, but that doesn't imply I think that is the only serious racism. It was just one example among many possibilities.

Quote from: jeff37923 on September 01, 2022, 05:57:45 PM
So, you are implying that the worst kind of racist is a white supremacist?

I'll take up that position if it is helpful.  In the United States (where I live), I think that white supremacists are the worst kinds of racist.  What kind of racist do you think is worse? 

I'm going to base my position on number of people killed by hate groups. 

Quote
Most of the murders (26 of 29) were committed by right-wing extremists, which is usually the case.  However, two killings were committed by Black nationalists and one by an Islamist extremist—the latter being the first such killing since 2018.

You know how many people were killed by playing Coyote & Crow?  Best I can tell, zero.  That's even less than Mazes and Monsters.