You know, Visitor Q, I actually agree with you.  I think it's good to consider the advice that the game provides and to evaluate it and critique it.  I do believe that rules, in an RPG, for instance, are usually a good thing, and that many rules can be reviewed, analyzed, and improved based on their intent and expected output.  I believe that advice should be evaluated the same way. 

Now, agreeing that advice could be good or bad, I don't think that a singular piece of bad advice ruins a specific work.  I don't think that GMs should fudge die rolls - if you agree to roll you should agree to keep the roll no matter what.  But I also understand that there are books that will tell me I should fudge the roll, especially if it helps me achieve a bunch of other things that are important.  I'm prepared to read their advice, consider their advice, and then make my own decision. 

In the 3rd paragraph of the message to Native players he says:

Quote..keep in mind that the intention of this game is not to simply take the reality of our lived world and transpose it onto a future fictional world.  This is a work of alternate history fiction.  In the world of Coyote & Crow, the last 700 years of our real history never happened.  We encourage you not to overlay your tribe's recent past onto this different future, but instead think in terms of what could be, of what might have been

Bold for emphasis.  That seems...pretty reasonable. 

Talking about discussing what counts as 'respectful use' prior to the start of game to avoid needing to stop a session - that's pretty squarely in line with 'don't be an asshole advice'. 

When talking to non-native players he reaffirms the whole '700 years of alternate history' aspect, meaning that even well-researched real-world studies are not reliable.  He specifically suggests 4 actions that players should not do:
1) Choose a real-world heritage
2) Choosing a two-spirit identity
3) inserting vocabulary from an Indigenous language if it isn't a proper noun or included in their guide
4) Speaking or acting in a fashion that mimics what are almost certainly negative stereotypes of Native Americans.

None of that is 'bad advice'.  Maybe it's on the cautious side.  Maybe you can use some non-proper nouns if you've been studying Navajo (available on Duolingo) and that'll actually make the game better.  But that doesn't make the game 'inherently racist' or even make it 'pandering' to Native crowd, or targeted at 'white guilt'. 

Setting aside the book and going to the blog, avoiding going to a Mexican restaurant because you're afraid of 'cultural appropriation' is pretty silly.  Helping people see that is also a good thing.  Even if you believe that you can be disrespectful to a culture by taking aspects of it and exaggerating them/repurposing them (and I'm sure NOT EVERYONE HERE AGREES THAT IS EVEN POSSIBLE), pointing out that there's lots of space to engage with another culture before you even need to worry about it is surely worthwhile. 

Now, this is Connor's advice and he thinks it's pretty 'common sense'.  I personally agree with his take.  I'm pretty sure some posters here are taking liberties with 'what he really means'

Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 24, 2022, 10:29:57 AM

Quote from: Wheetaye on August 23, 2022, 09:00:48 PM
deadDMwalking is presenting an idealized (and fictional) version of the guidelines written in the C&C sourcebook. As written, it is not a "don't be an asshole" guide. It is an extremely restrictive roleplaying protocol for non-indigenous players.

Don't pretend that Rule 0 doesn't exist. 

Good advice, bad advice, your game, your decision.  I'd argue that it isn't such bad advice - I don't feel restricted by it because there are so many other ways to play.  And since it's alt-history, trying to shoehorn a real world history that doesn't conform just offers more challenges that are easier to avoid by accepting the setting and it's conceits.

Since it's alt-history it's also alt-ethnicities, therefore there's no way to "play to stereotypes".

Let us remember that to you a man playing a female slut is bad, but a woman playing a dude bro (or whatever other sterotype) isn't because of their sex.

Just like, to you & the author of C&C, a white (puagh!) person playing another ethnicity is fraught with "problematic" obstacles, but any person of any other ethnicity playing a white character is not.

You and him ARE racists and sexists, you're also (I think) a white saviour getting offended on my behalf. I'm more NA than the author since 1 of my grandparents was Maya, I don't have to trace my lineage centuries back to know it or make a DNA test. (Although we did trace our lineage back to the last Moorish king of (In would be Spain really) Spain.

It's a good thing I'm developing my own alt-history Mayan inspired fantasy game. No racist/sexist advice to be found on it.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 24, 2022, 11:55:40 AM
It's a good thing I'm developing my own alt-history Mayan inspired fantasy game. No racist/sexist advice to be found on it.

I'm doing the same... I'm turning my back on all the 'contaminated' fantasy stuff, like fluffy playable orcs, and going full-on Celtic. Albeit my own version of Irish History. It's totally self-contained (except perhaps for Britain). And other gnarly Fey realms. With lots of purely evil races for the players to cut to bits, or team up with. I won't be imposing my personal morals on how a game should be played. That's up to the group and none of my business.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 24, 2022, 11:55:40 AM
Since it's alt-history it's also alt-ethnicities, therefore there's no way to "play to stereotypes".

Unless you bring in real cultures and you proceed to stereotype them. Which you don't have to do, the book asks you not to do, but apparently some people think that the author is racist to tell you that's a bad idea? 

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 24, 2022, 11:55:40 AM
Let us remember that to you a man playing a female slut is bad, but a woman playing a dude bro (or whatever other sterotype) isn't because of their sex.

I'm saying that when you play a character and you exaggerate certain features (horniness being an example) there's a big difference when you're making fun of yourself versus making fun of someone else.  A guy playing a horn-ball guy is creepy in most game contexts, too, but it's clear that he's making fun of himself.  When the guy is playing a horn-ball girl it's less clear if it is mean-spirited.  And that's fine to gender-swap that.  A girl playing a horn-guy would be similarly creepy in that context.  We could argue about whether someone like me should worry about a girl making fun of me (since I'm pretty large/strong/secure) the same way that a girl should worry about a guy making fun of her, but ultimately, I like to try to avoid making people feel uncomfortable at the game REGARDLESS of where those comfort levels are. 

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 24, 2022, 11:55:40 AM
Just like, to you & the author of C&C, a white (puagh!) person playing another ethnicity is fraught with "problematic" obstacles, but any person of any other ethnicity playing a white character is not.

I didn't say this, and you know it.  It's not racist for me to play a black character, nor is it racist for a black person to play a white character.  It could be racist if I play a character of a different race (or gender or ethnicity) and specifically try to exaggerate them for comedic effect.  We could have a pretty deep aside about why and how stereotypes happen, and whether including some but not others is more respectful, but at the end of the day some people are going to see your character as a fully realized person and some MIGHT see it as a caricature of hurtful stereotypes, depending in no small part on your presentation. 

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 24, 2022, 11:55:40 AM
You and him ARE racists and sexists, you're also (I think) a white saviour getting offended on my behalf.

I'm not offended.  I'm not offended on your behalf.  I never get offended for other people.  When other people are offended I don't tell them that they don't have a RIGHT to be offended, and when people tell me they're offended and why something is offensive to them, I try to see it from their perspective.  I'll usually say something like 'I can see how that could be offensive'.  Because usually I can. 

Not always, though.  It APPEARS that Connor's comments are deeply offensive to some people, and I'm just not understanding why.  It may be that I'm racist and sexist and therefore just oblivious, as you allege, GeekyBugle, but if that's the case I think I could ruminate and improve myself. 

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 24, 2022, 11:55:40 AM
You and him ARE racists and sexists, you're also (I think) a white saviour getting offended on my behalf. I'm more NA than the author since 1 of my grandparents was Maya, I don't have to trace my lineage centuries back to know it or make a DNA test. (Although we did trace our lineage back to the last Moorish king of (In would be Spain really) Spain.

It's a good thing I'm developing my own alt-history Mayan inspired fantasy game. No racist/sexist advice to be found on it.

I think it would be cool to have that Moorish Spain connection in your alt-history Mayan game, too (speaking of my own preferences), though don't know if that would fit in as you have envisioned.  At any rate, please keep us informed on the progress of your game.  Are you using an existing system to build on, or completely home-built?  (Sorry if this is off-topic.)

Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 24, 2022, 12:16:20 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 24, 2022, 11:55:40 AM
Since it's alt-history it's also alt-ethnicities, therefore there's no way to "play to stereotypes".

Unless you bring in real cultures and you proceed to stereotype them. Which you don't have to do, the book asks you not to do, but apparently some people think that the author is racist to tell you that's a bad idea? 

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 24, 2022, 11:55:40 AM
Let us remember that to you a man playing a female slut is bad, but a woman playing a dude bro (or whatever other sterotype) isn't because of their sex.

I'm saying that when you play a character and you exaggerate certain features (horniness being an example) there's a big difference when you're making fun of yourself versus making fun of someone else.  A guy playing a horn-ball guy is creepy in most game contexts, too, but it's clear that he's making fun of himself.  When the guy is playing a horn-ball girl it's less clear if it is mean-spirited.  And that's fine to gender-swap that.  A girl playing a horn-guy would be similarly creepy in that context.  We could argue about whether someone like me should worry about a girl making fun of me (since I'm pretty large/strong/secure) the same way that a girl should worry about a guy making fun of her, but ultimately, I like to try to avoid making people feel uncomfortable at the game REGARDLESS of where those comfort levels are. 

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 24, 2022, 11:55:40 AM
Just like, to you & the author of C&C, a white (puagh!) person playing another ethnicity is fraught with "problematic" obstacles, but any person of any other ethnicity playing a white character is not.

I didn't say this, and you know it.  It's not racist for me to play a black character, nor is it racist for a black person to play a white character.  It could be racist if I play a character of a different race (or gender or ethnicity) and specifically try to exaggerate them for comedic effect.  We could have a pretty deep aside about why and how stereotypes happen, and whether including some but not others is more respectful, but at the end of the day some people are going to see your character as a fully realized person and some MIGHT see it as a caricature of hurtful stereotypes, depending in no small part on your presentation. 

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 24, 2022, 11:55:40 AM
You and him ARE racists and sexists, you're also (I think) a white saviour getting offended on my behalf.

I'm not offended.  I'm not offended on your behalf.  I never get offended for other people.  When other people are offended I don't tell them that they don't have a RIGHT to be offended, and when people tell me they're offended and why something is offensive to them, I try to see it from their perspective.  I'll usually say something like 'I can see how that could be offensive'.  Because usually I can. 

Not always, though.  It APPEARS that Connor's comments are deeply offensive to some people, and I'm just not understanding why.  It may be that I'm racist and sexist and therefore just oblivious, as you allege, GeekyBugle, but if that's the case I think I could ruminate and improve myself.

"We could argue about whether someone like me should worry about a girl making fun of me (since I'm pretty large/strong/secure) the same way that a girl should worry about a guy making fun of her"

If it's wrong for me it's wrong for her, that's called equality, but you're a fedora wearing wahmen respecter.

In the same way if it's wrong for a white person it's wrong for a person of any other "race", but you're a racist as all progressives are.

No, you're not getting offended on my behalf, you're getting offended in the behalf of some hypotetical.

Quote from: Osman Gazi on August 24, 2022, 12:21:31 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 24, 2022, 11:55:40 AM
You and him ARE racists and sexists, you're also (I think) a white saviour getting offended on my behalf. I'm more NA than the author since 1 of my grandparents was Maya, I don't have to trace my lineage centuries back to know it or make a DNA test. (Although we did trace our lineage back to the last Moorish king of (In would be Spain really) Spain.

It's a good thing I'm developing my own alt-history Mayan inspired fantasy game. No racist/sexist advice to be found on it.

I think it would be cool to have that Moorish Spain connection in your alt-history Mayan game, too (speaking of my own preferences), though don't know if that would fit in as you have envisioned.  At any rate, please keep us informed on the progress of your game.  Are you using an existing system to build on, or completely home-built?  (Sorry if this is off-topic.)

It is and I've been warned about it.

Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 24, 2022, 12:16:20 PM


Unless you bring in real cultures and you proceed to stereotype them. Which you don't have to do, the book asks you not to do, but apparently some people think that the author is racist to tell you that's a bad idea? 

.....

I'm not offended.  I'm not offended on your behalf.  I never get offended for other people.  When other people are offended I don't tell them that they don't have a RIGHT to be offended, and when people tell me they're offended and why something is offensive to them, I try to see it from their perspective.  I'll usually say something like 'I can see how that could be offensive'.  Because usually I can. 

Not always, though.  It APPEARS that Connor's comments are deeply offensive to some people, and I'm just not understanding why.  It may be that I'm racist and sexist and therefore just oblivious, as you allege, GeekyBugle, but if that's the case I think I could ruminate and improve myself.

Asking players not to stereotype a culture is not the racist bit.

Racist: adjective prejudiced against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular racial or ethnic group.

The core of a role play game is to take on the role of a fictional character, embody that character and play a game generally adventurous or thrilling in nature with that character.

Instructing a real-life person that they cannot take on a role and play it how they wish within a rpg only because of their real-life ethnicity is racist.  Note that we are not talking about context or stereotyping or experience. The instruction is an absolute one.  If you intend to play the game as the author intended you can't use any Native American words that aren't proper nouns if you are not Native American yourself.   It doesn't matter if you are a professor in Indigenous-Languages, or fluent in them or have just done a hell of a lot of research if you are black or Japanese or Irish or whatever then these words are off limits.

That is racist.  It is racist because of the way words work as noted in the definition above.

There's an argument about the justification of racism that you can make if you want.  For example, "It's ok for Coyote & Crow to be racist against its player base because it protects Native Americans."

Personally, I think that argument is a non-starter.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 24, 2022, 12:38:18 PM
If it's wrong for me it's wrong for her, that's called equality, but you're a fedora wearing wahmen respecter.

I didn't say it was wrong one way and wasn't wrong the other - I'm just pointing out that people worry about the consequences of being mistreated differently.  For myself, I'm not particularly worried about being mistreated because someone has judged me unfairly. 

Quote from: Visitor Q on August 24, 2022, 12:41:16 PM
Instructing a real-life person that they cannot take on a role and play it how they wish within a rpg only because of their real-life ethnicity is racist.  Note that we are not talking about context or stereotyping or experience.

You see, that's where I'm disagreeing.  I'm pretty sure the guy is saying 'when you incorporate real world cultures, it's really easy to stereotype experience, thus it is best avoided'.   It's clear based on your next quote that we don't agree on that. 

Quote from: Visitor Q on August 24, 2022, 12:41:16 PM
   The instruction is an absolute one.  If you intend to play the game as the author intended you can't use any Native American words that aren't proper nouns if you are not Native American yourself.   It doesn't matter if you are a professor in Indigenous-Languages, or fluent in them or have just done a hell of a lot of research if you are black or Japanese or Irish or whatever then these words are off limits.

This is advice in a gaming supplement, not a game rule.  It does not say something like 'players that choose a real-life Indigenous culture can be punched by the other players' which would create an actual consequence in play to this supposed rule.  Like all rules in all rule books (and in fact, in keeping with other advice in the same chapter) it appears that the author is aware that not everyone is going to play the same way and there's room for that.  Recommending you keep a door closed rather than exhaustively trying to define what you can and can't do on the other side to avoid being an asshole is different than saying something like 'even going through that door is grounds for execution'. 

Me telling you don't do something isn't the equivalent of me telling you that you can't do something.  AND it is phrased as a request - the author is clearly signaling his understanding that you have the option to ignore the request. 

Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 24, 2022, 01:36:31 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 24, 2022, 12:38:18 PM
If it's wrong for me it's wrong for her, that's called equality, but you're a fedora wearing wahmen respecter.

I didn't say it was wrong one way and wasn't wrong the other - I'm just pointing out that people worry about the consequences of being mistreated differently.  For myself, I'm not particularly worried about being mistreated because someone has judged me unfairly. 

Quote from: Visitor Q on August 24, 2022, 12:41:16 PM
Instructing a real-life person that they cannot take on a role and play it how they wish within a rpg only because of their real-life ethnicity is racist.  Note that we are not talking about context or stereotyping or experience.

You see, that's where I'm disagreeing.  I'm pretty sure the guy is saying 'when you incorporate real world cultures, it's really easy to stereotype experience, thus it is best avoided'.   It's clear based on your next quote that we don't agree on that. 

Quote from: Visitor Q on August 24, 2022, 12:41:16 PM
   The instruction is an absolute one.  If you intend to play the game as the author intended you can't use any Native American words that aren't proper nouns if you are not Native American yourself.   It doesn't matter if you are a professor in Indigenous-Languages, or fluent in them or have just done a hell of a lot of research if you are black or Japanese or Irish or whatever then these words are off limits.

This is advice in a gaming supplement, not a game rule.  It does not say something like 'players that choose a real-life Indigenous culture can be punched by the other players' which would create an actual consequence in play to this supposed rule.  Like all rules in all rule books (and in fact, in keeping with other advice in the same chapter) it appears that the author is aware that not everyone is going to play the same way and there's room for that.  Recommending you keep a door closed rather than exhaustively trying to define what you can and can't do on the other side to avoid being an asshole is different than saying something like 'even going through that door is grounds for execution'. 

Me telling you don't do something isn't the equivalent of me telling you that you can't do something.  AND it is phrased as a request - the author is clearly signaling his understanding that you have the option to ignore the request.

Why would you cut the pertinent context? Could it be that ANYONE with a functioning brain would see that you're very much arguing for what I say you are?

Here, let me provide the relevant bit (again since you love to do that).

"We could argue about whether someone like me should worry about a girl making fun of me (since I'm pretty large/strong/secure) the same way that a girl should worry about a guy making fun of her"

SDince you can't be arsed to argue in good faith and all you do is being a disngenuous twat don't bother answering. My following answers will be me autisticaly spaming the context you're intent on removing.

Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 24, 2022, 11:53:48 AM
...He specifically suggests 4 actions that players should not do:
1) Choose a real-world heritage
2) Choosing a two-spirit identity
3) inserting vocabulary from an Indigenous language if it isn't a proper noun or included in their guide
4) Speaking or acting in a fashion that mimics what are almost certainly negative stereotypes of Native Americans.
...

What's a two-spirit identity, and why can't I play that?

Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 24, 2022, 11:53:48 AM
...He specifically suggests 4 actions that players should not do:
1) Choose a real-world heritage

Only applies to white people playing indigenous people not the other way around or to indigenous people playing as indigenous people from a different tribe. Ergo it's singling out ONE group due to their race, ergo it's racist.

Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 24, 2022, 11:53:48 AM
2) Choosing a two-spirit identity

Only applies to white people playing indigenous people not the other way around or to indigenous people playing as indigenous people from a different tribe. Ergo it's singling out ONE group due to their race, ergo it's racist.

Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 24, 2022, 11:53:48 AM
3) inserting vocabulary from an Indigenous language if it isn't a proper noun or included in their guide

Only applies to white people playing indigenous people not the other way around or to indigenous people playing as indigenous people from a different tribe. Ergo it's singling out ONE group due to their race, ergo it's racist.

Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 24, 2022, 11:53:48 AM
4) Speaking or acting in a fashion that mimics what are almost certainly negative stereotypes of Native Americans.

Only applies to white people playing indigenous people not the other way around or to indigenous people playing as indigenous people from a different tribe. Ergo it's singling out ONE group due to their race, ergo it's racist.

Plus there's no inverse rule about not portraying ANY other race with stereotypes negative or not.

But Wokeman Walking will keep on deffending the racist POS that's the author of C&C either because he's "Native American" or because Wokeman Walking is also a racist POS.

Quote from: Aglondir on August 24, 2022, 10:19:07 PM

Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 24, 2022, 11:53:48 AM
...He specifically suggests 4 actions that players should not do:
1) Choose a real-world heritage
2) Choosing a two-spirit identity
3) inserting vocabulary from an Indigenous language if it isn't a proper noun or included in their guide
4) Speaking or acting in a fashion that mimics what are almost certainly negative stereotypes of Native Americans.
...

What's a two-spirit identity, and why can't I play that?

Being cray cray and believing you're an otherkin or you have headmates (voices in your head).

Quote from: deadDMwalking on August 24, 2022, 11:53:48 AM
...He specifically suggests 4 actions that players should not do:
1) Choose a real-world heritage
2) Choosing a two-spirit identity
3) inserting vocabulary from an Indigenous language if it isn't a proper noun or included in their guide
4) Speaking or acting in a fashion that mimics what are almost certainly negative stereotypes of Native Americans.
...

I can't stand all that 'walking on eggshells lark'.

Any reason you can't choose a real-world heritage?
A two-spirit?
Indigenous language... Why be so anal unless you are a native American? I'm not going to correct some tourists' use of improper use of the 'Irish' language. That would also apply to gamers. We butcher it constantly.

Negative stereotypes? Pretty much every game uses stereotypes good and bad. Italian Mafia... Irish Drunkards and bombers... Islamic terrorists... Corrupt Clergy. Again, it's only a game. I've no problem using stereotypes if it enhances the character and gaming experience. That's not to say I'd go out of my way to upset someone per se. These people really need to get a thicker skin. Now, if the 'intent' is to be cruel or just to piss everyone off, however, then that's a different thing and not something I'd support.

It's somewhat a moot point as this is not the game I'd play. And if I did I'd take a 'redacted' marker to that box of text and all the other nanny-state childish finger-wagging. The best way to deal with these people is just to totally ignore them and their products.

They can bleat day and night from the sidelines it makes no odds to me... 

PS - I'm too lazy to correct that stoopid quote thingey.