I am looking for a good book or two on WuXia. Or the Xia. I know almost nothing about them. I think the Xia were like a chinese cross between an american gunfighter of the old west and a european Knight errant. But obviouly their own thing that grew out of their own culture and history.
Also readable history or well researched historic fiction on china's waring warring states period. I also think during certan historical periods China's west was like the American old west. Both empty, in both the horse was paramount, and both had heroic fighters wandering through.
I may not have any Idea what I am talking about.
Any suggestions welcome.
(Reading a book called Empire of the Summer Moon about the history of the Comanches. I think their is a lot of good campagin materia in there. It's related to my question about the simlairities between the far east and the old west. I can't decide if it should have its own thread.)
You want Far West by Gareth Michael Skarka. Available everywhere in print and PDF.
It is a genre so I would recommend reading wuxia novels and watching wuxia movies. But for overviews you might try Chinese Martial Arts Cinema: The Wuxia Tradition by Stephen Teo and Paper Swordsman by John Christopher Hamm. For reading wuxia I recommend starting with the Water Margin, then finding some translations of wuxia novels in print or online. For print you can still get a few Louis Cha/Yong Jin books (The Book and the Sword, Fox Volant, etc) and Gu Long's Eleventh Son has been translated as well. For fan translations you can find all kinds of stuff online. What you like will come down to personal taste but I personally recommend checking out the Condor Hero trilogy, Baifa Monu Zhuan (The White Haired Maiden), and Heroes Shed Tears (this one is available at Wuxia World). For movies I would say start watching a bunch of Shaw Brothers stuff and work from there (there is a ton of it on Amazon Prime right now and Netflix has some classics as well). I suggest sampling different directors to see whose style you like. You can also watch Chinese Drama series (many of which are 50 episode versions of the stories I already mentioned). You can see those at places like Viki or buy them on Amazon. Those are good because you get the more complete story (a lot of the movies are based on the books but have to squeeze the storylines into under two hours).
Thanks for the sugestions. Any history to recomend?
Quote from: Matt;955718You want Far West by Gareth Michael Skarka. Available everywhere in print and PDF.
I also heartily recommend looking for this gem. ;)
Quote from: Headless;955739Thanks for the sugestions. Any history to recomend?
I would probably start with a survey book, but then for specific periods, there is a good series called The History of Imperial China series (http://www.hup.harvard.edu/collection.php?cpk=1338). Those are still survey books but they will give you more focus on individual periods. Another very cool book is Bing by Michael Lowe (and he has a nice simple book about daily life during the Han called Everyday Life in Early Imperial China). Those are both pretty quick reads (one is a fictional account based on historical sources, the other is a quick guide to the culture during the time). I am a lot more interested in Tang and Song China so most of the books on my shelf tend to deal with those periods. But you will definitely want to pick up some info on architecture and technology. There are lots of great resources for that. Another good resource is A Dictionary of Official Titles in Imperial China by Charles O Hucker). I am in a bit of a rush because I have to go deal with some car issues but if you PM me I'd be happy to shoot you a list of books and websites when I get back. Also I think that Kevin Crawford has posted a massive list somewhere of historical resources on Imperial China.
The Good, the Bad, & the Weird is an fun movie that might give you ideas as well, although it's set in Manchuria, rather than Xinjiang. It's Korean, rather than Chinese, but it sounds like what you're looking for, and there's a certain amount of commonality between all the former horse nomad areas in Central Eurasia, from Manchuria to the Hungarian plain.
Quote from: 3rik;955747I also heartily recommend looking for this gem. ;)
Ever since it was released, my entire world was literally turned upside down.
Quote from: Matt;955718You want Far West by Gareth Michael Skarka. Available everywhere in print and PDF.
Definitely the best kickstarter I've ever had the misfortune of not backing.
More seriously, Qin or Weapon of the Gods are both good choices. I'm rather fond of WuShu, but its a system that requires players to already have an understanding of the genre, so maybe not the best place to start.
All y'all have a mischievous sense of humor. :p
Wait it released????
Quote from: tenbones;955799Wait it released????
[video=youtube;sYU_eDMr4xE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYU_eDMr4xE[/youtube]
HAHAHAHHAHA that was awesome!!!
I got mine on December 2011, exactly when it was estimated to be delivered.
And once again... I've entered a strange land of confusion. I see Tales of the Far West on Drive-Thru - is this the complete game?
Quote from: tenbones;955823And once again... I've entered a strange land of confusion. I see Tales of the Far West on Drive-Thru - is this the complete game?
No its not. Thats the joke. Kind of ruins the joke saying it though, eh?
Wait? So you were recommending a game that is exactly what I want (-minus the steampunk part) but doesn't exist?
Thats not a very nice thing todo.
Quote from: Headless;955839Wait? So you were recommending a game that is exactly what I want (-minus the steampunk part) but doesn't exist?
Thats not a very nice thing todo.
Welcome to theRPGsite. You might want to get a helmet.;)
You should get the El Rey Network. Every Thursday they show 3-4 Shaw Brothers movies
Anyway, as to games, Joseph Bloch released Golden Scrolls of Justice, a wuxia supplement for his retro clone (which is basically just slightly house ruled 1e AD&D). Don't have it, but he does competent work.
Quote from: Headless;955839Wait? So you were recommending a game that is exactly what I want (-minus the steampunk part) but doesn't exist?
Thats not a very nice thing todo.
Gareth Michael Skarka has confirmed on many occasions that the book exists.
Quote from: Ronin;955829No its not. Thats the joke. Kind of ruins the joke saying it though, eh?
HAHAHAHAH!!! Nothing is better than getting Rick-rolled by one's self.
The joke got even better!!!
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;955748Also I think that Kevin Crawford has posted a massive list somewhere of historical resources on Imperial China.
I've got my research library catalog up here (https://sinenomine.libib.com/), which is sort of an awkward bibliography of possible books on premodern China. The downside is that most of those books are Extremely Expensive to get if you don't have easy access to a top-tier research library. In terms of material on China's Warring States period of 475 BC-221 BC... well, things get bumpy. Here are some resources you can get.
First, you may want to look at the more recent translation of Sima Qian's pre-Han history (https://www.amazon.com/Grand-Scribes-Records-Vol-Pre-Han/dp/0253340217/). His "Grand Scribe's Records" set the pattern for the next two thousand years of Chinese historiography, and this edition has a lot of explanatory footnotes to help make clear what exactly is going on.
For a parallel look, you'll want the Spring and Autumn Annals, one of the fundamental classics of Chinese civilization. The problem is that it is extremely gnomic. What you really need are the
commentaries on the Spring and Autumn Annals, which explain what each entry "really" means and adds flavor. There are three major commentaries on the Annals, but two of them aren't terribly helpful for your purpose. The one you want is the Zuo Zhuan, the "Tradition of Mr. Zuo", which is full of treachery, bloody murder, divine vengeance, and the kind of snappy stories that get referenced for the next two thousand years. The problem is that the only really good English translation, which came out last year, runs $240. There's a $100 edition of it, the "Zuo Tradition" on Amazon coming out this summer, but if you want it free, you'll need to use the very old and somewhat awkward Legge translation "The Ch'un ts'ew, with the Tso chuen", which you can scrape off archive.org.
Those are the most accessible source texts of pre-Han China, if you want to read what the Chinese considered the Important Stuff. Anything by Michael Loewe is a good bet for Han China, which is the period after the very brief Qin period, which is the period after the Warring States. A lot of Han material is still applicable to how things were during the Warring States.
If I were a GM interested in premodern China and could only get one book, however, I'd make it Endymion Wilkinson's Chinese History: A New Manual, Fourth Edition (https://www.amazon.com/Chinese-History-Harvard-Yenching-Institute-Monograph/dp/0674088468/). It's a massive, relatively-cheap paperback with tiny text and it contains a huge amount of direct, practical information about every aspect of premodern China, neatly divided into dynasties. Food, money, religion, rulers, geography, warfare, nobles, the whole nine yards. For a working GM, it's got everything they need to either answer their questions or let them fake it convincingly.
If you want stories involving wandering heroes and supernatural encounters and such, you'll want to have recourse to Feng Menglong's trilogy of short stories, first published in 1620. His first one is the best- Stories Old and New (https://www.amazon.com/Stories-Old-New-Collection-Paperback/dp/0295978449/). It's positively dripping with playable details, though its stories take place over different dynasties. There are a number of stories in there that honestly sound like D&D adventures, including sinister mechanical traps and asshole thieves.
You can also always grab The Water Margin (https://www.amazon.com/Water-Margin-Outlaws-Classic-Classics/dp/0804840954) as a romantic look at wandering knight-errants and their crusade for great justice. One caveat, however, is that the Water Margin plays up the "haoren" character stereotype, and the haoren is not entirely the same as the classic knight-errant. Black Lightning from the Jade Empire game by Bioware was lifted from this tradition- he's a haoren, in that he really doesn't care what cause he fights for so long as there's a good fight involved. He's loyal to the death to his companions, but he really doesn't care if his companions are assholes or not, so long as they're loyal to him as well. He wants women, fame, money, and success, and while he'll never betray his sworn brothers to get it, he'll do all kinds of deeply nasty things to bystanders on the way. He respects courage, loyalty, and skill, and those who have none of these things are useful only insofar as they provide entertainment or point him at some great deed that will earn him suitable fame.
Quote from: Skywalker;955849Gareth Michael Skarka has confirmed on many occasions that the book exists.
Yeah, yet hes never released a draft let alone a beta copy to backers after how many years? Like four or better. Every 3 to 6 months gives an update that after (fill in the blank of current project) in finished that he going to buckle down and get it finished. Or he working on chapter what ever. Yet
never has
anything at all to show for it. Google up Tenkar's Tavern. He usually has the lowdown on the latest excuse from GMS.
Quote from: Skywalker;955821I got mine on December 2011, exactly when it was estimated to be delivered.
Time does fly when you wait for the Best RPG to be ever stopped by 2 floods in a row, doesn't it?
Quote from: Ronin;955872Yeah, yet hes never released a draft let alone a beta copy to backers after how many years? Like four or better. Every 3 to 6 months gives an update that after (fill in the blank of current project) in finished that he going to buckle down and get it finished. Or he working on chapter what ever. Yet never has anything at all to show for it. Google up Tenkar's Tavern. He usually has the lowdown on the latest excuse from GMS.
4 years? I remember when it was 4 years. Those were good times.
For the record we are currently at 5.5 years.
Quote from: Skywalker;9558744 years? I remember when it was 4 years. Those were good times.
For the record we are currently at 5.5 years.
Did you try for a refund? If not but are interested, he's apparently giving them out.
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;955876Did you try for a refund? If not but are interested, he's apparently giving them out.
No. As I see it KS is about buyer beware. Looking for a refund just makes it more likely other backers won't get the stuff they want. I won't ever back GMS again or anything he has his hand in though.
Quote from: Skywalker;955881No. As I see it KS is about buyer beware. Looking for a refund just makes it more likely other backers won't get the stuff they want. I won't ever back GMS again or anything he has his hand in though.
It helps to look at it as in investment in a start-up, not a store. Some companies dont make it off the ground, so the money is lost. In other cases, you stand to get a lot more for your dollar than on the retail market. If you want to play it safe, stick with KS by companies with established records. If you don't mind a gamble, then try out the new guys on the block with a cool idea.
Yep. Agree.
That, and it will probably arrive, just 10 years late.
Quote from: Skywalker;9558744 years? I remember when it was 4 years. Those were good times.
For the record we are currently at 5.5 years.
Sorry my sarcasm meter is on the fritz. Been dealing with people too serious for their own good lately.
Quote from: Headless;955716I am looking for a good book or two on WuXia. Or the Xia. I know almost nothing about them. I think the Xia were like a chinese cross between an american gunfighter of the old west and a european Knight errant. But obviouly their own thing that grew out of their own culture and history.
Also readable history or well researched historic fiction on china's waring warring states period. I also think during certan historical periods China's west was like the American old west. Both empty, in both the horse was paramount, and both had heroic fighters wandering through.
I may not have any Idea what I am talking about.
Any suggestions welcome.
(Reading a book called Empire of the Summer Moon about the history of the Comanches. I think their is a lot of good campagin materia in there. It's related to my question about the simlairities between the far east and the old west. I can't decide if it should have its own thread.)
The xia are wandering martial artists, usually depicted with a sword on their backs. They are looking to right wrongs, bring glory to their school and their names, find love and happiness, as well as to bring peace to others and peace of mind to themselves.
All of that, and more, are things that they are trying to accomplish via martial arts. Needless to say, they aren't always successful!
Of course, their main enemy is Fate. The cannibal cultists, walking tigers in human skin and reincarnated goddesses are just the pawns (and rooks,and towers...) in this game!
The best game I have seen, when it comes to background, are Qin: the Warring States and Outlaws of the Water Margin.
The best game, when it comes to genre emulation (at least, emulation of a certain part of the wuxia genre - though keep in mind that saying "wu xia" is as broad as saying "fantasy", and one kind of it is like saying ) is Legends of the Wulin. What do I mean by best?
Learn the rules (no mean feat by itself, some say). Create characters. Start playing by the book trying to game the system as much as possible.
You'll be behaving like xia in no time flat, even if you had no idea about the genre.
Quote from: SineNomine;955866[book list
Thanks. That is exactly what I was looking for. Although its lame that the book I want is 240 bucks.
I have probably a 3rd rate research lybary in my town. Small libral arts undergrad university.
You a proffesional china reasearcher? Or a gentilman of leasure?
Quote from: Headless;955951You a proffesional china reasearcher? Or a gentilman of leasure?
A gentleman of unsleeping toil now, really. I spent the past fourteen years working for Yale's library, so it hasn't been much of a problem to accumulate a research library. I quit that last month and moved back to a village in Michigan because Sine Nomine has been earning too much the past few years to bother with Yale any more. Now I can sit quietly and read some of the 2,000 books I've got to hand and maybe speed up my RPG production a little.
Quote from: SineNomine;955866One caveat, however, is that the Water Margin plays up the "haoren" character stereotype, and the haoren is not entirely the same as the classic knight-errant. Black Lightning from the Jade Empire game by Bioware was lifted from this tradition- he's a haoren, in that he really doesn't care what cause he fights for so long as there's a good fight involved. He's loyal to the death to his companions, but he really doesn't care if his companions are assholes or not, so long as they're loyal to him as well. He wants women, fame, money, and success, and while he'll never betray his sworn brothers to get it, he'll do all kinds of deeply nasty things to bystanders on the way. He respects courage, loyalty, and skill, and those who have none of these things are useful only insofar as they provide entertainment or point him at some great deed that will earn him suitable fame.
So "haoren" is Mandarin for "typical player character"? ;)
Quote from: The Butcher;956008So "haoren" is Mandarin for "typical player character"? ;)
Pretty much. Toward the end of the Qing dynasty, the haoren was such a recognized social type that there were particular rituals involved in their executions. They'd be taken to the execution ground in the usual cart, but the haoren would stop the cart to demand a length of red cloth from a tailor to drape around his neck. As he was being taken to his death, he was expected to boast of his deeds, declare what a fabulous haoren he was, and commonly assure the listeners that "in twenty-one years I'll be a haoren again!", referring to the expected cycles of rebirth. In return, bystanders judged his merit based on how fearlessly he faced his death, how brashly he bragged of his deeds, and how conspicuous his loyalty to his sworn brothers was. It was terribly disappointing when some haoren-poser lost his nerve halfway to the beheading-ground and couldn't manage to sing anything witty. The Communists squelched that kind of thing when they took over, and killed "hooligans" without public fuss. They didn't need any folk heroes in the wrong places.
Quote from: SineNomine;956032Pretty much. Toward the end of the Qing dynasty, the haoren was such a recognized social type that there were particular rituals involved in their executions. They'd be taken to the execution ground in the usual cart, but the haoren would stop the cart to demand a length of red cloth from a tailor to drape around his neck. As he was being taken to his death, he was expected to boast of his deeds, declare what a fabulous haoren he was, and commonly assure the listeners that "in twenty-one years I'll be a haoren again!", referring to the expected cycles of rebirth. In return, bystanders judged his merit based on how fearlessly he faced his death, how brashly he bragged of his deeds, and how conspicuous his loyalty to his sworn brothers was. It was terribly disappointing when some haoren-poser lost his nerve halfway to the beheading-ground and couldn't manage to sing anything witty. The Communists squelched that kind of thing when they took over, and killed "hooligans" without public fuss. They didn't need any folk heroes in the wrong places.
That can also be taken as an example of the fate that awaits "typical player characters" in most settings:). Refrees need to take notes!
Also, it's a fun reminder that many PCs start wanting to be virtuous xia, and then end up being haoren;).
Quote from: SineNomine;956007A gentleman of unsleeping toil now, really. I spent the past fourteen years working for Yale's library, so it hasn't been much of a problem to accumulate a research library. I quit that last month and moved back to a village in Michigan because Sine Nomine has been earning too much the past few years to bother with Yale any more. Now I can sit quietly and read some of the 2,000 books I've got to hand and maybe speed up my RPG production a little.
What's "sine Nomine"?
A lybraian though? Do they get to read? I live in a university town, I do shift work in a factory. I get to read more than all of my proffessor friends. If its not on their book list they don't have time. Even if its in their subject.
Quote from: Headless;956087What's "sine Nomine"?
A lybraian though? Do they get to read? I live in a university town, I do shift work in a factory. I get to read more than all of my proffessor friends. If its not on their book list they don't have time. Even if its in their subject.
Sine Nomine is the account of the Sine Nomine publishing house* which brought to us gems like Spears of the Dawn, Scarlet Heroes and Godbound, among others;).
BTW, any thoughts on my LotW suggestion?
*It's a publishing house, right?
Quote from: Skywalker;955881No. As I see it KS is about buyer beware. Looking for a refund just makes it more likely other backers won't get the stuff they want. I won't ever back GMS again or anything he has his hand in though.
If he had approached things with anything close to honesty I probably would've let it all go. Things happen. But his
constant lying and blaming warranted a hit to his wallet, not just reputation.
Quote from: AsenRG;956089Sine Nomine is the account of the Sine Nomine publishing house* which brought to us gems like Spears of the Dawn, Scarlet Heroes and Godbound, among others;).
BTW, any thoughts on my LotW suggestion?
*It's a publishing house, right?
Legend of the Wulin?
I am a store shoper. If I can't walk in to some place and pick the book up and flip through the pages I am less interested.
But I'll check it out at drive through?
Quote from: Headless;956103Legend of the Wulin?
I am a store shoper. If I can't walk in to some place and pick the book up and flip through the pages I am less interested.
But I'll check it out at drive through?
Last I heard, the authors themselves would like to know the address if you find the store where those books are:D. Maybe I'm out of the loop, though, I'm a PDF user and happy with it.
Warning, don't even think to purchase if you dislike rather crunchy systems;).
Quote from: AsenRG;956172Last I heard, the authors themselves would like to know the address if you find the store where those books are:D. Maybe I'm out of the loop, though, I'm a PDF user and happy with it.
Warning, don't even think to purchase if you dislike rather crunchy systems;).
I like crunchy systems. But like I said I have a no screens at the gaming table rule.
I'd like to have a no rule books at the gaming table as well.
I have also noticed in the last couple of years, my opoinions have slid to extrimities and I have become quite sure of them. That would be fine except one of the things I have become quit sure of is that no one knows anything and disaster and damnation follow from certainty.
Quote from: Headless;956192I like crunchy systems. But like I said I have a no screens at the gaming table rule.
I'd like to have a no rule books at the gaming table as well.
Then LotW is definitely not for you, and for that matter, Pathfinder, GURPS and a few others also would be a bad fit:).
QuoteI have also noticed in the last couple of years, my opoinions have slid to extrimities and I have become quite sure of them. That would be fine except one of the things I have become quit sure of is that no one knows anything and disaster and damnation follow from certainty.
It's alright to be worried in this case.
Only a certain kind of Chi-Users deal in absolutes, you know;)?
I checked my third rate research libary. It only had the book of stories from1620 you mentioned. And it was old beat up and un-pleasant.
Thanks though. I will keep checking.
Quote from: Headless;956453I checked my third rate research libary. It only had the book of stories from1620 you mentioned. And it was old beat up and un-pleasant.
Thanks though. I will keep checking.
Some of the more expensive books you can get used on amazon and eBay for reasonable rates (sometimes). I usually check both places when I want an academic book that is costly. You can also try interlibrary loan (where they acquire the book for you from another library).
Also you can try journal articles. They often have very good information. Jstor has a free account option that allows you to read up to three articles at a time (and your library might have access to similar sites).
Also, Water Margin is free, given the time elapsed;). And there's a free Outlaws of the Water Margin RPG which is rather good!
And this article (http://david-gemmell.frbb.net/t891-wu-xia-pian-kung-fu-pian) if you find it translated, explains well that not all martial arts stories are wuxia.
Quote from: Headless;956087What's "sine Nomine"?
Quote from: AsenRG;956089Sine Nomine is the account of the Sine Nomine publishing house* which brought to us gems like Spears of the Dawn, Scarlet Heroes and Godbound, among others;).
*It's a publishing house, right?
Unless he's hired someone recently, Sine Nomine Publishing is one man, Kevin Crawford.
Quote from: CRKrueger;956469Unless he's hired someone recently, Sine Nomine Publishing is one man, Kevin Crawford.
I know, Green One, but "a publishing house" sounds more respectable, doesn't it:D?
Hero is an excellent fit, and can be run at the table with no books. I also highly recommend the two Tsui Hark Detective Dee films for another view into the mindset.
anyone else envision Gareth-Michael Skarka reading all these Far West threads, muttering under his breath, "they'll see. once the book is out they will all be sorry they ever made fun of me. oh yes, they'll ALL see..."
(it might explain why the game isn't out yet...)
Wait... this thread isnt about the Spanish western RPG Far West? :confused:
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-DRsCFFDDadA/VvwW_NqlmGI/AAAAAAAAKKc/nrn6MpAmBBInUoSV7B8WxKWjc9Zj2Roiw/s1600/farwest.jpg)
oh... wrong direction... :o