So how does a GM handle the sniper as a character with out being too much of a dick?
Not sure of your setting but... to prevent him/her from setting up: Guards, cameras, wards, motion sensor lights, patrols, dogs, amazingly bright lighting, bubble wrap everywhere (try sneaking around on that shit).
To prevent from getting a clear/accurate shot; strong winds and poor lighting But I guess it can't always be midnight during hurricane season. Doubles (like Hussein used), surround oneself with body guards, or innocents. Personal wards, kevlar, forcefields, target is on some sort of accelerator (spell, pill, whatever) and can move super fast thus dodging the projectile and maybe running up and beating the snot out of the would be sniper.
Might be interesting to take a missed shot and kill someone unexpected, maybe someone he/she doesn't recognize and it turns out to be someone important or an ally or something. Could result in a manhunt for the PC or at least some interesting reactions from PCs and NPCs alike.
Just a few thoughts.
Not sure of your setting but... to prevent him/her from setting up: Guards, cameras, wards, motion sensor lights, patrols, dogs, amazingly bright lighting, bubble wrap everywhere (try sneaking around on that shit).
To prevent from getting a clear/accurate shot; strong winds and poor lighting But I guess it can't always be midnight during hurricane season. Doubles (like Hussein used), surround oneself with body guards, or innocents. Personal wards, kevlar, forcefields, target is on some sort of accelerator (spell, pill, whatever) and can move super fast thus dodging the projectile and maybe running up and beating the snot out of the would be sniper.
Might be interesting to take a missed shot and kill someone unexpected, maybe someone he/she doesn't recognize and it turns out to be someone important or an ally or something. Could result in a manhunt for the PC or at least some interesting reactions from PCs and NPCs alike.
Just a few thoughts.
I appreciate every suggestion I get. Tonight was kind of a perfect storm of situational stuff-great terrain combined with superior positioning, an unaware target and an incredibly high die pool. Add in superior tactics on their part and they got the results they deserved but I just felt like I missed some opportunities to balance it properly.
The traditional dramatic counter to a sniper is another sniper, resulting in a running stealth battle through Stalingrad.
The real counter to a sniper is artillery.
If your game allows players to be snipers, and has situations that can be resolved just by killing someone, I think you are in for a bit of a snooze fest.
Snipers can have a lot of problems. After they shoot the guy, they have to escape. If they can leave their gun, run down some steps, and be on a crowded street, they will probably get away with it. If they have to jog a mile to a helo, they might have some trouble.
When I run modern games, I generally run two types. One, where cat and mouse games of stealth are the only game in town, and two, where killing people doesn't solve anything.
In the first type, you have to be willing to kill player characters by the same means.
"Roll perception."
"I got a 17."
"You needed a 22, sorry. (rolls dice) I'm afraid your dead. Your sidearm was destroyed by a .50 rifle round."
Quote from: Serious Paul;491964I appreciate every suggestion I get. Tonight was kind of a perfect storm of situational stuff-great terrain combined with superior positioning, an unaware target and an incredibly high die pool. Add in superior tactics on their part and they got the results they deserved but I just felt like I missed some opportunities to balance it properly.
If they did a good job planning like that I think you handled it fine (no need to dial up the challenge level just because pcs are choosing good tactics). That said there can still be fallout from sniping depending on the setting and context.
In the urban environment, crowds, obstructions like newsstands and cars, etc. are all likely to interfere with attempts to snipe. Also, most buildings in a given section of town tend to be about the same height, which makes sniping difficult because you can't see over intervening buildings, which means you need to get quite close (like an adjacent building).
Unless the sniper is trying to just cause terror by picking people off, or their target is going to be on a raised platform like a podium or in an open area like a park or plaza, it's pretty difficult to find a good shooting position.
Not to mention that simply finding a sniping spot is a challenge in an urban setting. You can't just walk to the rooftop of a random conveniently located building: you have people working or living in it, receptionists, security guards, building security inspectors, locked rooftop access hatches, etc..
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;492000If they did a good job planning like that I think you handled it fine (no need to dial up the challenge level just because pcs are choosing good tactics). That said there can still be fallout from sniping depending on the setting and context.
The only reason I am even taking a look at this is I had at least two players complain, and a third player mention he was a little suspect of how things played out. Add to this that I've politely asked for the player in questions character sheet four times, and four times now the player has found a way to spin me-I'm loathe to simply accuse someone of cheating publicly, which in our group is what a confrontation would be taken as. Especially since the player in question is a decent cat, but has a bad rap with how he handles competitiveness at the table.
My goal, as I see it, isn't to crank up the opposition-but rather make sure I have them dialed into the correct position.
Quote from: Serious Paul;492017The only reason I am even taking a look at this is I had at least two players complain, and a third player mention he was a little suspect of how things played out. Add to this that I've politely asked for the player in questions character sheet four times, and four times now the player has found a way to spin me-I'm loathe to simply accuse someone of cheating publicly, which in our group is what a confrontation would be taken as. Especially since the player in question is a decent cat, but has a bad rap with how he handles competitiveness at the table.
My goal, as I see it, isn't to crank up the opposition-but rather make sure I have them dialed into the correct position.
This is an entirely different situation than I first assumed based on the OP. If the players themselves are complaining there is clearly an issue. First I think you need to establish whether the player is cheating (and it sounds like he may be). Then I recommend you familiarize yourself more with the rules (really dig deep into them and see if he is misusing anything--is he exceeding stacking limits? Does he meet modifier requirements? Etc).
So is the problem you basically have one player who is always getting the upperhand somehow while the others are left in the dust?
In yesterday's game the player in question definitely did somethings that seem legal by the rules but just felt off to all of us. It's not impossible I missed something-but it is with in the realm of possibility the player was completely street legal. Shadowrun 4 has some funny loop holes in the rules that don't come up often, but can ridiculous when they do. This hasn't happened before, and I am making sure that next time a situation comes up like this I'll handle it better.
Cover being totally inadequate in SR4 RAW means that cyber-snipers with thermogoggles and some APDS ammo can shoot people through rather more building than you might expect.
Quote from: Serious Paul;491959So how does a GM handle the sniper as a character with out being too much of a dick?
You say: So, guys, sniping seems super-effective. I think I might be using the rules wrong. I re-read them last night, and I think we might be misinterpreting a rule. Sniper, can I see your sheet, I need to get the bonuses and run the math again, sorry.
And then you have three options.
1. Sniper was obviously cheating - with what's on his sheet, he could not reach the hit and damage that he's been declaring. You can call him on it, or call it a math error, as in "I think you might have added this bonus twice." And then move on.
2. You find the error, yours or his - whether he was intentionally making the error or not doesn't matter too much. "Oh, crap! A 20x scope adds +4 to the hit, it doesn't multiply the damage by 20!"
3. He's not cheating, and there are no errors. "Well, I guess by the rules, sniping is just that super-effective, so much so it's ruining the game for everyone who isn't a sniper. I'll take suggestions on rules/playstyle modifications for leveling the playing field. What do you guys think is fair?"
Along the lines of what was mentioned earlier about it being hard to find sniping locations: if the target is at all worried about snipers, they'll take steps to stakeout and guard any likely sniping locations, which will probably be fairly few. It should be a fair challenge just getting the sniper into position.
Make some NPC snipers first. You may learn something that will help you audit his character. And if not you'll have a bunch of counter-snipers all lined up and ready to go.
Sniping is very deadly.
So, why don't snipers kill more people in real life?
Because, as soon as they shoot, everyone goes to ground and fires at the place they were hiding, assuming they were spotted. Even if they get someone, they are not guaranteed a kill and have a high chance of being taken out themselves, especially if they stick around for shot number 2.
Quote from: Kaldric;4921213. He's not cheating, and there are no errors. "Well, I guess by the rules, sniping is just that super-effective, so much so it's ruining the game for everyone who isn't a sniper. I'll take suggestions on rules/playstyle modifications for leveling the playing field. What do you guys think is fair?"
Anything he can do, you can do too. He's far far from the only sniper-for-hire in the game world, and the security services have had over a hundred and fifty years to develop their anti-sniper tactics.
First, though, ice an NPC friendly to the party. Just so they know the game world means business.
Without actually knowing for sure there's a problem (more than "it kinda seems off"), I wouldn't do anything except keep my eyes open and ask the players what they thought of the scene/situation. If they're cool with it, shoot them with an NPC sniper and see if they're still cool with it. If they are, then no problem, just keep playing. If you find a problem, then do something to fix it.
Quote from: Ladybird;492218Anything he can do, you can do too. He's far far from the only sniper-for-hire in the game world, and the security services have had over a hundred and fifty years to develop their anti-sniper tactics.
First, though, ice an NPC friendly to the party. Just so they know the game world means business.
I was kind of assuming that in the third situation, there was actually a problem with the rules - as in, they'd been written by a sniper fanboy type.
Part of the general feel I've gotten with sniper rules in various games is that they sometimes they try to be realistic with sniper rules, while going for "cinematic" handgun rules, melee rules, etc.
In real life, a sniper kills you with one shot. In real life, so does the guy with a .45 from 10 yards away.
They tend to try to keep the first, and complicate the second - which makes sniping much more effective in comparison.
Quote from: Serious Paul;492023Shadowrun 4 has some funny loop holes in the rules that don't come up often, but can ridiculous when they do.
Such as?
RPGPundit
Not sure how familiar you are with SR4, so forgive me if I over simplify.
Well basically Shadowrun 4 uses a dice pool approach to it's system. So you get a pool based on (Usually) a skill and an ability score plus or minus modifiers and all of the target numbers are the same (5 and above counts as success.) There are some tasks that have a threshold that requires you to score a certain amount of successes.
By Rules as Written it's well with in the realm of possibility to generate a character who can throw 26 dice down on a given task, usually before modifiers. (Although a clever player can try and cherry pick a scenario to get the maximum benefits here and there.) A lot of players tend to invest this solely in combat skills, but it is possible to do it with social, magic, or technical skills. Add to this, that certain character types when hotsimmed-basically operating in a virtual relaity environment (In most cases used by Hackers, although a lot of use is seen by Riggers-people who operate drones, and vehicles in most combat scenarios)-can end up with twice as many, even three times as many actions as the rest of the group.
Combined with poorly written rules and confusing rules; and a confusing organization (A lot of see page X, and when you get to page X it refers you back to page Y or another book completely with out a page number to help speed it along) it can be both mathematically difficult to keep track of, and leads to some frustration on the part of the other players who sometimes feel like why bother getting shot or doing anything when the rigger can just wipe the floor with the opposition.
There's a lot more-the guys who built SR4 hate magic, and love anime (Yes, a generalization.) so they tried really hard to squash magic in this edition and encourage anime, manga and furry character concepts. This in itself might not be a problem at every table-obviously your mileage will vary; but don't need them to pick what concepts we need to play or not play; the game has some gaps in how it deals with some weapons and ammunition types.
The setting is powerful enough for us to wade through it all, and still have fun. We've been tightening up our game trying to be a little more conscious of the rules we tend to miss.
Oh god, you poor bastard, you aren't actually letting people use stuff from Unwired, are you?
That way madness lies.
I'm actually pretty lucky. My players are pretty cooperative, and they collaborate with me pretty well. Over all we do a good job of keeping the absurd stuff at bay.
Glad to hear it. Shadowrun 4e is one game that my group will no longer play, despite it also being the mechanical basis for one of our best campaigns (the one where I played my own grandson).
The dice pools just got too insane and too slow, and the house rules we initially tried to make cover more useful weren't adequate to the task.
I was under the impression that 4e was an improvement over previous editions. But then, I've never liked the system for any Shadowrun, it was always the big barrier to playing the game for me.
RPGPundit
Improvement? Meh-really it's the same game just sort of turned side ways. There's a few places where they improved, but really it's no btter or worse than previous editions in my book.
Quote from: Serious Paul;493085Improvement? Meh-really it's the same game just sort of turned side ways. There's a few places where they improved, but really it's no btter or worse than previous editions in my book.
So you're saying all SR sucks, then?
RPGPundit
The crunch? I might cosign that. The setting? No-the setting is awesome for us. But for me it's an example of how even a game that at times is written like crap can still be fun for the right people.
For me in all the editions it's never been the rules that sold me-I could run Shadowrun in any mechanical system out there. It's rules are neither ground breaking or unique. It's the setting that makes the game for me.
Quote from: Serious Paul;491964I appreciate every suggestion I get. Tonight was kind of a perfect storm of situational stuff-great terrain combined with superior positioning, an unaware target and an incredibly high die pool. Add in superior tactics on their part and they got the results they deserved but I just felt like I missed some opportunities to balance it properly.
So...They worked hard for a victory and had an awesome time.
I'm not seeing the flaw here.
I already addressed that exact same comment in this thread.
Based on what is said here I'm gonna go with a few points that I think are relevant rather than the entire spectrum of counter-sniper gaming.
First: High priority targets tend to have a lot of paranoid security types who do silly things to keep their VIPs from being sniped... like only getting in an armored car inside an underground garage. At no point should a sniper in Shadowrun just set up outside of, say, ARES HQ and just wait for the CEO to randomly show his face to catch a bullet.
Going with that point: A sniper op in shadowrun should be built so that the actual shot itself is almost anti-climactic, the dice roll almost a formality to capstone a long, group intensive operation to find when and where the target will be, setting up holes in security, distractions and more so that, at the end of the day the Sniper can do his job (Or for extra fun: Miss (Dice Gods!), so that the next session is all fallout from screwing up).
Also: Consider how security would be protecting a target. Long running 'zephyr' drones with sniper rifles on overwatch make rooftops lethal for the 'Runner'. People have mentioned doubles, though in Shadowrun that's just a likely to be an illusion or clone-skinned drone as a dude with surgery. Then there are protections...
Second: How many Shadowruns should you be building where popping a single target is a make or break it situation? A well built character of any type should be able to 'one-shot' a target of their choice under circumstances that favor that character. So what? A single good, well planned, dice roll should not dominate any single session.
Third, and since I don't feel like doing hours of typing, last: never neglect the penalties. Its been a while since I checked, but in SR4, most of the neat toys and tricks only help offset penalty conditions, they don't fully negate them (Er, other than range penalties... stupid game). Since degrees of success actually matter, reducing dice pools by even trival amounts can alter the degrees of success. Its easy to succeed, it can be hard to succeed well. Next time your super-sniper is about to take a 'game changing shot', take a quick time out to actually add up the modifiers properly. Why not? Its "GAME CHANGING"... nobody should be complaining you are bogging the game down at that point. I've found a lot of 'overpowered' players are simply taking advantage of the fact that the GM doesn't want to penalize them. Personally, I'm cool with that... until the other players complain!
Quote from: Serious Paul;493438I already addressed that exact same comment in this thread.
Ah; I apologize.