What sort of stuff could be put into a game set maybe a thousand years after an apocalypse, that would make reference to our own time but might be misinterpreted?
For example, I just came up with a plot where there's a secret society in my setting, who think that the lyrics to Bob Dylan's Mr.Tambourine Man are actually a kind of sacred text with hidden keys to reaching some kind of utopia.
Photo albums stop in 2006. Future inhabitants think their was a sudden rise in a clut with a strong prohibition in idols and images.
Quote from: Headless;1007022Photo albums stop in 2006. Future inhabitants think their was a sudden rise in a clut with a strong prohibition in idols and images.
One does wonder what archeologists and historians of the future will think of such overnight changes in practice and culture. But we know how this works.
See, my first wife is an internationally recognized quilt historian, and I pushed her into doing that because she's a quilter, and we were both in the SCA together. A lot of SCAdians were quite down on her quilting and proclaimed it out-of-period, holding to the bizarre shibboleth that quilting was invented by 19th century American frontier housewives, and it drove her crazy.
They believe that movies and TV are actual chronicles of real events.
Quote from: jeff37923;1007110They believe that movies and TV are actual chronicles of real events.
I'm not sure a lot of movies or TV would be likely to survive, though if they did, they might, maybe have that impression.
I think more likely there would be a lot of books that would be seriously misinterpreted, though.
I do not know if this qualifies, but the scene from "Reign of Fire" where they watch a stage play, and you realise that it is actually "The Empire Strikes Back" was quite funny. I guess that some people from pre-apocalyptic times knew the movies by heart and reconstructed them from memory in written form - turning them into plays. Given enough generations, the idea that a "religious representation" could actually come from a movie could be lost.
Quote from: jeff37923;1007110They believe that movies and TV are actual chronicles of real events.
Around here, The Dukes of Hazzard is already considered a "how to" guide for a political system, as well as a documentary.
How's this for meta?
In some parts of the world, an ancient collection of writings called "Dungeons and Dragons" is preserved, venerated, and elevated to a sacred text. It offers a perplexing theology and worldview, an unusual mythology, a moral code of conduct, and many, many, many holy laws and dispute resolution mechanisms for the faithful. Many of these laws require the ritual casting of oddly-shaped "bones."
Of course, different versions of the sacred text, and many apocrypha, have come down to us from antiquity. Sages ponder the texts, compose elegant exegeses, but naturally doctrinal disputes abound. Sectarian strife is rampant.
Quote from: Zirunel;1007373How's this for meta?
In some parts of the world, an ancient collection of writings called "Dungeons and Dragons" is preserved, venerated, and elevated to a sacred text. It offers a perplexing theology and worldview, an unusual mythology, a moral code of conduct, and many, many, many holy laws and dispute resolution mechanisms for the faithful. Many of these laws require the ritual casting of oddly-shaped "bones."
Of course, different versions of the sacred text, and many apocrypha, have come down to us from antiquity. Sages ponder the texts, compose elegant exegeses, but naturally doctrinal disputes abound. Sectarian strife is rampant.
Yup, I could see that.
That would actully be awesome if you veiled it just enough so it wasn't a self indulgent meta circle jerk.
Holiday decorations.
What will future people make of Halloween?
Quote from: RPGPundit;1007307I think more likely there would be a lot of books that would be seriously misinterpreted, though.
"All this has happened before, and by the right of it, all of it will happen again."
NPC shaman wordyman holds up a tattered paperback copy of the novelization of Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome.
Quote from: Cave Bear;1007712Holiday decorations.
What will future people make of Halloween?
Good question. There's a chance they might mistake it as something much more serious than it was. Like, assuming that we really did believe in dark and evil spirits and dressed our children up as monsters to ward off that evil.
This is literally the premise of A ps2 rpg I had called MS saga A new dawn.
Basically after the end as people where figuring out the world before the apocalypse they found "records" describing the world before known as the "universal century" but there is disagreement abound with historians as "records" describing "another century" and "the other century" have also come to light.
Basically they think Mobil Suit manga are historical records.
Quote from: jeff37923;1007110They believe that movies and TV are actual chronicles of real events.
So...Galaxy Quest?
I'm curious why everyone thinks people in the future would be idiots following whatever apocalypse you invented. Did radiation make them mentally incompetent?
Quote from: Dumarest;1008468I'm curious why everyone thinks people in the future would be idiots following whatever apocalypse you invented. Did radiation make them mentally incompetent?
It's really more awareness of our own incompetence projected forward.
I mean, look at modern perceptions of medieval life.
We fear that our descendants will see us the same way we see our ancestors.
*edit*
Fortunately, there are bound to be some history-buffs in the future willing to do their research and dispel misconceptions about us.
*edit2*
...Maybe some future equivalent of HEMA devoted to recreating and understanding early 21st century urban combat. Those guys would surely invest themselves in researching the lives and diets of the United States soldiers that once fought in the middle-east.
Quote from: Dumarest;1008468I'm curious why everyone thinks people in the future would be idiots following whatever apocalypse you invented. Did radiation make them mentally incompetent?
Dunno. But following politics these days, it seems like the radiation is definitely doing its thing.
My favourite sf book set in a far future with the remnants of our culture left behind as inscrutable artifacts is Delany's THE EINSTEIN INTERSECTION. It is comparatively subtle and even puzzle-like. Actually I wonder if Adventure Time was influenced by it at all as they are very similar settings.
Quote from: Dumarest;1008468I'm curious why everyone thinks people in the future would be idiots following whatever apocalypse you invented. Did radiation make them mentally incompetent?
There's a long history in archaeology and history of people thinking incredibly stupid things based on limited evidence/artifacts of past times, and that's without an apocalypse.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1008897There's a long history in archaeology and history of people thinking incredibly stupid things based on limited evidence/artifacts of past times, and that's without an apocalypse.
Doesn't even have to be incredibly stupid things. Just has to be wrong guesses.
For my part, I'd love it if historians and archaeologists were more prone to say "There's just not enough evidence to make a reasonable guess."
Quote from: Ravenswing;1008915"There's just not enough evidence to make a reasonable guess."
They can't get published with that, and they can't keep their jobs unless they get published.
Quote from: Cave Bear;1008917They can't get published with that, and they can't keep their jobs unless they get published.
I'm minded of a passage from
Lucifer's Hammer *, a Niven/Pournelle post-apoc novel involving a comet strike on Earth. Prior to the strike, a reporter's expressing skepticism about how much of a spectacle the comet's putative close approach will be, given some recent duds, and the amateur astronomer sneers in response. So, says he, you've got two astronomers: one who tells your TV station that well, the comet may or may not be visible to the naked eye, and the other who squeals "Oooo, Kohoutek's going to be the Big Christmas Comet!!" Which one, says he, did your producer put on the six o'clock news?
* - I might have some of the details wrong here, because it's been a couple decades since I read it, but this is the gist of it.
Quote from: Cave Bear;1008917They can't get published with that, and they can't keep their jobs unless they get published.
That's one big part of the problem. The other is to that academics have personal agendas, and want to read those into the past.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1009196That's one big part of the problem. The other is to that academics have personal agendas, and want to read those into the past.
Well, we all have personal agendas. You would have to be a cold and indifferent robot to be completely impersonal toward the past.
Let's focus on the things we can fix.
@ pundit. Quit being an ass. Academics are no more or less evil than anyone else (except bankers).
And quit being ignorant. Everyone has an agenda. And you can't even read with out one.
An agenda is a near synonym for a model of the world inside your head. With out that model, and the model always has purpose, information just passes through and doesn't stick to anything. It doesn't inform, so its not even information.
If your model doesn't have a place for the information to fit, it passes by. Signal becomes noise.
Yes this is a denial of objective truth. But some truths are better than others.
If we want to go further we should probably switch fourms.
Certainly everyone has an agenda. But academics are required to have agendas that are made to fit interpretations of facts and truths. In a lot of cases instead what we get is totally out-of-context materials and findings being blown up into gigantic all-encompassing theories.
This is not really meant to be a criticism of new post-modernist academia, by the way. In fact, it's something that's been happening for ages, since the 19th century at least. Actually, the difference with post-modernist academia is that they don't even bother to use a scrap of evidence. They just blatantly invent shit.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1009622This is not really meant to be a criticism of new post-modernist academia, by the way. In fact, it's something that's been happening for ages, since the 19th century at least. Actually, the difference with post-modernist academia is that they don't even bother to use a scrap of evidence. They just blatantly invent shit.
That's nothing new.
If it's not post-modern academia inventing shit, its religion.
Everybody has a narrative, man. Even you.
Quote from: Cave Bear;1009636That's nothing new.
If it's not post-modern academia inventing shit, its religion.
Everybody has a narrative, man. Even you.
Everyone has biases.
Everyone even engages in unconscious confirmation bias from time to time.
But not everyone intentionally starts with a narrative and then intentionally forms that entire narrative while inventing false facts out of nothing just to push that narrative.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1009998Everyone has biases.
Everyone even engages in unconscious confirmation bias from time to time.
But not everyone intentionally starts with a narrative and then intentionally forms that entire narrative while inventing false facts out of nothing just to push that narrative.
Evidently, that's irrelevant.
http://rifters.com/real/articles/Neuropsychologia_Rosenthal_2008.pdf
http://rifters.com/real/articles/Science_The_Right_Choice.pdf
http://journal.sjdm.org/14/14321/jdm14321.html
Quote from: Cave Bear;1010018Evidently, that's irrelevant. ]
Only for people not really interested in the truth, or ...you know... doing real science, and maybe, ...just maybe, advancing our skills and knowledge for everyone's benefit. But then there's the slavers, who don't care what you think. Which camp are you in?
This is poltics now. Lock it or move it.
Quote from: GameDaddy;1010020Only for people not really interested in the truth, or ...you know... doing real science, and maybe, ...just maybe, advancing our skills and knowledge for everyone's benefit. But then there's the slavers, who don't care what you think. Which camp are you in?
Henry and June are given a task. They must consider complex information and make a decision. Henry is given time to commit his full and undivided attention to the task in order to make a conscious decision. June is distracted with crossword puzzles; she has to make her decision unconsciously.
June is 5% more likely to make the correct decision.
The truth, at least as far as current neurological research suggests, is that consciousness is less important than we like to think it is. Your 'self', your self-transparent model of consciousness likes to think it is in charge. Your 'self' is more like a pointy-haired boss taking credit for ideas that came from below and telling elaborate stories about it.
Quote from: Cave Bear;1010026Henry and June are given a task. They must make consider complex information and make a decision. Henry is given time to commit his full and undivided attention to the task, in order to make a conscious decision. June is distracted with crossword puzzles; she has to make her decision unconsciously.
June is 5% more likely to make the correct decision.
The truth, at least as far as current neurological research suggests, is that consciousness is less important than we like to think it is. Your 'self', your self-transparent model of consciousness likes to think it is in charge. Your 'self' is more like a pointy-haired boss taking credit for ideas that came from below, and telling elaborate stories about it.
Eh, So now you are claiming that it is science that the person who spends no time committing their full and undivided attention on a task is going to make the best decision about it. Every single blacksmith that ever forged a Damascus steel sword for the armies that you,... even now, ...bow down to, respectfully disagrees. No smith who was unconscious about what they were doing, ever forged a remarkable blade.
As for you
Headless... STFU. Take your raggedy A$$ed RPG.net political dilettante philosophy back to RPG.net and do not interfere anymore with our discussions about truth and science.
Quote from: GameDaddy;1010028Eh, So now you are claiming that it is science that the person who spends no time committing their full and undivided attention on a task is going to make the best decision about it.
No. These guys do.
Quote from: Cave Bear;1010018http://rifters.com/real/articles/Neuropsychologia_Rosenthal_2008.pdf
http://rifters.com/real/articles/Science_The_Right_Choice.pdf
http://journal.sjdm.org/14/14321/jdm14321.html
Quote from: GameDaddy;1010028Every single blacksmith that ever forged a Damascus steel sword for the armies that you,... even now, ...bow down to, respectfully disagrees. No smith who was unconscious about what they were doing, ever forged a remarkable blade.
Even brain-surgeons zone out. You've never absently drifted off during a complex task, and realized only after the fact that you've finished flawlessly without even thinking about it? It's called being "in the zone". Maybe dwarven blacksmiths don't do that in your campaign, but we aren't talking about Dungeons & Dragons right now so fuck off.
Quote from: Cave Bear;1010032No. These guys do.
Even brain-surgeons zone out. You've never absently drifted off during a complex task, and realized only after the fact that you've finished flawlessly without even thinking about it? It's called being "in the zone". Maybe dwarven blacksmiths don't do that in your campaign, but we aren't talking about Dungeons & Dragons right now so fuck off.
Being "in the zone" gets many more people killed than helps them make good decisions, or successfully evolve. ...You're driving, unconsciously your mind takes over. When you start focusing again, you find you are many miles away and almost at your destination. You don't remember the roads you have driven on, or what cars have been in front of you, or behind you. You only know today, you made it.
Then there's the guy that was driving like that, that plowed into the car in front of them, and died instantly, completely unaware he was totally f*^&%*& up. I know of at least two (no three, ...thinking about it) people personally that have done that, and they are dead now. Pretty sure, even without looking, that the scientists you are quoting, didn't bother to expand their study to see what happened to the other half, that failed half of those unconscious retards. Maybe if they did real science, they would know better than to make such ill-researched ridiculous unsupportable claims.
Also, don't be mad at me for calling you on your BS. Be thankful, because now you know more, and can make better decisions than when you are drifting along in ignorance.
...Also, we are talking about real life now, not D&D, although the same lesson applies. The guy that consciously puts time into being a better GM is automatically going to do better at GMing more often, than the guy who doesn't practice. That's also why the term
"bitter non-gamer" came into it's own. Gamers need to actually be at a table running games, or at least playing in order to make better and more entertaining games.
Sure. Whatever you say, then.
You sound like a fish:
Man this water is wet. This is bullshit, when did water get so wet. I won't stand for it, down with the liberal media and their wet water agenda."
There is no natural, what is, is becuase of accident or choice. It can change, it has changed and when it changes next those that are doing well currently will howl.
There is no neutral. Every law or absense of law creats winners and losers.
Quote from: Headless;1010068You sound like a fish:
Man this water is wet. This is bullshit, when did water get so wet. I won't stand for it, down with the liberal media and their wet water agenda."
There is no natural, what is, is becuase of accident or choice. It can change, it has changed and when it changes next those that are doing well currently will howl.
There is no neutral. Every law or absense of law creats winners and losers.
Who are you addressing?
The fish part? Not you.
The second part is more pontificating than adderessing any one in particular. But if you find it edifying you're welcome.
Quote from: Headless;1010072The fish part? Not you.
The second part is more pontificating than adderessing any one in particular. But if you find it edifying you're welcome.
No, I was just confused about who that post was directed at. Thank you for clearing that up.
Alright, let's trace our steps.
First we were talking about the post-apocalyptic future.
We were talking about how people in the post-apocalyptic future might interpret the ruins and relics of our time.
We form our ideas of how future people might behave by extrapolating from our own behavior.
We have a history of academics publishing questionable ideas about past civilizations, and we fear that the academics of the future might publish spurious conjectures about us.
Somebody suggested that academics should not publish articles on things we don't know about.
I replied that academics have to publish work in academic journals to continue working in academia.
As usual, the Pundit expressed some opinions about that.
Some people checking the Pundit...
...Pundit pontificating...
Ah, he says something about unconscious confirmation bias and continues on to "But not everyone..."
I see the word unconscious and post scientific articles in neurological research regarding the illusory nature of consciousness.
Then there was GameDaddy, and his... whatever that was about.
Headless said something about fish.
Here's an idea. What if future people don't give a flying fuck about any of us?
Thousands of years from now someone will find a copy of the Bible, Mein Kampf, the AD&D Player's Handbook, or Dark Albion, and their companion will say to them:
"That doesn't mean anything. Throw it into the fire."
Quote from: Cave Bear;1010077Thousands of years from now someone will find a copy of the Bible, Mein Kampf, the AD&D Player's Handbook, or Dark Albion, and their companion will say to them:
"That doesn't mean anything. Throw it into the fire."
...Not remotely interested in what they prefer, know, ...or learn. I'm sure there are plenty of psychopaths right now that disagree with me, and are working hard to get to a place where they, or their descendants, may get an opportunity to make some sort of decision about that.
(Not replying to anybody, just continuing along a train of thought.)
Look at the following images. What do these look like to you?
Spoiler
[ATTACH=CONFIG]1987[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH=CONFIG]1986[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH=CONFIG]1985[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH=CONFIG]1984[/ATTACH]
These are images from a Victorian fashion magazine. These are predictions of what 20th century people might wear, based on extrapolations of current trends and advancements in textile technology. Look at the poofy, ornate designs. That seemed to be where the wind was blowing.
Then World War I happened.
Sudden scarcity bottle-necked fashion, and forced it to move in a different direction. Imagine how backwards we might look to those Victorian fashion futurists.
Our whole idea of post-apocalyptic cargo cults is based on seemingly logical extrapolations of our own history. But unexpected events occur constantly, and any black swan event big enough to destroy our global civilization is likely to change us deeply in ways we cannot anticipate.
What if we have post-apocalyptic people all wrong? They look like tribalistic cargo-cultists to us only because our perception is colored by our own biases, but perhaps they understand us just fine. If they have a different perspective on our culture, maybe it isn't because they see us through the veil of ignorance but because they see us through the lens of hindsight.
That's possible, Cave Bear, but it doesn't take into account the potential for lost contexts due to a massive collapse of civilization, and learning.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1010608That's possible, Cave Bear, but it doesn't take into account the potential for lost contexts due to a massive collapse of civilization, and learning.
Does the collapse of civilization necessarily entail a collapse of learning?
It often seems like our civilization discourages or actively suppresses learning.
Quote from: Cave Bear;1010629Does the collapse of civilization necessarily entail a collapse of learning?
It often seems like our civilization discourages or actively suppresses learning.
Our civilization is the most widely educated civilization in all of human history.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1011332Our civilization is the most widely educated civilization in all of human history.
Explain flat-earthers then.
Quote from: Cave Bear;1011334Explain flat-earthers then.
The internet allows all kinds of nutters to reinforce their paranoia and groupthink.
Quote from: Cave Bear;1011334Explain flat-earthers then.
... you need an explanation about why there are always going to be whackdoodles in the world?
Quote from: Voros;1011504The internet allows all kinds of nutters to reinforce their paranoia and groupthink.
Hence anti-vaxxers and climate-change deniers.
Regardless, the average cab driver in the West in 2017 has a higher education than 99.9% of the human population throughout the rest of human history.
If I were to ever run Gamma World, it would probably be set near the remains of Disneyworld/Magic Kingdom, and let there be a brewing war between the humans who worship the Princesses, and the mutated animals who worship the Mouse, the Duck, etc.
Quote from: Tulpa Girl;1012783If I were to ever run Gamma World, it would probably be set near the remains of Disneyworld/Magic Kingdom, and let there be a brewing war between the humans who worship the Princesses, and the mutated animals who worship the Mouse, the Duck, etc.
I just want to say this is one of the coolest post Apocalypse idea's I have ever heard.
Quote from: Tulpa Girl;1012783If I were to ever run Gamma World, it would probably be set near the remains of Disneyworld/Magic Kingdom, and let there be a brewing war between the humans who worship the Princesses, and the mutated animals who worship the Mouse, the Duck, etc.
You remind me of a CK2 mod which has Disneyworld as a tribal society
Quote from: Tulpa Girl;1012783If I were to ever run Gamma World, it would probably be set near the remains of Disneyworld/Magic Kingdom, and let there be a brewing war between the humans who worship the Princesses, and the mutated animals who worship the Mouse, the Duck, etc.
Clever!
Also, if I didn't say it already, welcome to theRPGsite!
Quote from: RPGPundit;1013660Clever!
Also, if I didn't say it already, welcome to theRPGsite!
Thanks!
Quote from: RPGPundit;1013660Clever!
Also, if I didn't say it already, welcome to theRPGsite!
Thanks!
(something about Gamma World - at least the edition I have - just seems to really encourage that sort of loopy batshit insanity)
An old McDonald's restaurant converted to a Church. The inhabitants worship an old statue of Ronald McDonald as their God mistakenly referred to as "Big Mac", which upsets a splinter cult in another old McDonald's dating back to the 70s who have statues of other character including Officer Big Mac, Mayor McCheese and the Hamburgler. The splinter cult is more interested in law and order. Back to the original Church, they have a sacred relic that they have on display for worship in the form of a perfectly preserved happy meal. The splinter cult desperately wants this relic as they feel since they have more statues with more characters that it is rightfully theirs. They have agents dressed as the Hamburgler who occasionally attempt this. None have succeeded. Both the Church and Splinter Cult are surprisingly good at making Hamburgers and fries despite not having access to things like beef, potatoes and wheat.
In my OSR post-apocalyptic wuxia campaign (somewhat inspired by Into the Badlands), society has been recreated into an entirely new civilization that was mainly founded by one guy obsessed with old kung fu and samurai movies, and martial-arts comics. Usagi Yojimbo is a relic-level sacred text.
Quote from: Cave Bear;1011334Explain flat-earthers then.
I would be a lot of them are trolls exploiting the weak minded and gullible. The term "education" is tenuous. Anyone with a basic level of literacy is "educated". That doesn't stop them from believing in fairy tales and complete fabrications.
So I'm writing a very-post apocalyptic Space Opera story. Feudal Future. There's a Church. Galactic Christendom is a thing.
The Apocalypse was centuries ago, but it was one of those "Damn near wiped everything out" sorts, and the recovery's been uneven. There's been some interesting interpretations of pre-Apocalypse culture, which I prefer to use as little bonuses for the reader to enjoy.
e.g. "Saint Itano, Patron of Pilots and Gunners. Asked to protect ships from enemy ordinance, while blessing their own. Origin unclear (https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Itano%20circus), but has to do with late 20th Century Japan and how its military and popular culture intersected. Unknown why he's referred to in conjunction with circuses, as there seems to be no connection."
For any DCC fans out there, I should mention I just received a review-copy of a product called the Umerican Survival Guide, which is set up to run DCC as a weird-fantasy post-apocalyptic Earth game.
It's pretty freaking awesome. That is all.
In a nearby street full of functional boxy buildings, there's a restaurant with classical Greek-style architecture, columns and so forth. An archaeologist in the ruins might easily get the idea that it was a survival of ancient religion or culture rather than a tacky commercial building.
Quote from: The_Shadow;1015580In a nearby street full of functional boxy buildings, there's a restaurant with classical Greek-style architecture, columns and so forth. An archaeologist in the ruins might easily get the idea that it was a survival of ancient religion or culture rather than a tacky commercial building.
That's funny, though I find it kind of dubious. More likely, they'd think that our civilization went through some kind of brief classical revival, and would make high-faluting theories about what kind of moral principles we renewed from the ancients.