TheRPGSite

Greetings!

Well, in my studies of ancient China, it is especially enlightening to see the contrast between Medieval Europe and Medieval China. Take the Song Empire, around the 10th or 11th centuries, A.D. The Song Empire had cities of over 1 million people, and many, many cities of hundreds of thousands of people. These cities were often highly fortified with extensive walls and towers. The Song cities were highly organized, laid out in districts, all the while being in position to maximize their resources and profitability. Apparently, the Song Empire was capitalist, with merchants of every kind coming and going, trading goods from around the world.

The major cities of the Song Empire had 24-hour business and commerce, with an vibrant nightlife, restaurants of every kind, and promoting artistry and intellectual pursuits everywhere. There were published books--novels, romance novels, books on cuisine and cooking, and more. Evidently, the Song cities were well-lit, well patrolled and guarded. The people everywhere--according to some quoted primary sources--were happy, joyful, industrious, and prosperous.

When thinking about the "Medieval World" in developing my campaigns, it has definitely been eye-opening to consider not just Medieval Europe--but Medieval China as well.

Of course, as a friend pointed out to me, embracing a Medieval Chinese theme for a campaign radically changes many of the underlying assumptions of the game. The Song Empire was clearly the most advanced society on the planet at the time, and approached many modern sensibilities, with 24-hour market-places, nightlife, restaurants, cuisine, international trade, large-scale book publishing, advanced crafting skills, artistry, well-developed theater traditions, advanced universities, paper money, an official and elaborate fashion industry, high court diplomacy, and superior technology and processes in every field. It's staggering to go down a list of all of the achievements and accomplishments of the Song Empire. All o these things were *normal* for the Song Empire.

I suppose embracing a Medieval Chinese theme would radically change many campaign assumptions. What do you think? I have been tempted, for certain. *Laughing*

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Sounds amazing!  It saddens me to know that that the Song Empire didn't last, and fell to corruption and ultimately barbarian invaders. 

I wonder what stage you will place your civilization in?

While very interesting and certainly a change of pace, I suspect finding people able to wrap their heads around the culture would be a challenge.
I suspect that most people would be willing to watch a movie in the setting and not that interested in trying to play in it.
Unless of course it was just Medieval Europe with funny names.

It is tough introducing a significantly different setting in RPGs. In a movie, there are all those visuals. In a book, you can have hundreds of pages of descriptive prose. But nobody except a GM is going to read all that crap to play an RPG, and RPGs aren't just passive pre-scripted entertainment, they're freeform and active, which makes it much harder.

The best way might to create a bridge. A way to start in a more familiar setting, and introduce the elements either gradually or through immersion, but with the expectation it's as new to the characters as it is to the players. It can be a distant realm with travelers who visit the PC's home, and maybe take a trip there. It could be a magical gate, or a ship blown off course and sunk, where the PCs are dumped into a new realm and have adapt to the local customs and power structures. The stranger in a strange land is a hoary and effective motif.

Something like "Art of Wuxia"?
http://dwdstudios.com/artofwuxia

There is always the original "Empire of the Petal Throne" with its players starting as foreigners arriving at the port of a huge ancient city.

I would like to hear more. What system would you use? One problem I always have with running a Chinese-inspired game is martial arts. I was never satisfied with how AD&D or D&D 3 did their martial arts systems.

Sounds excellent! The Tang dynasty is my favorite, but the Song has so many possibilities.

Are you thinking historical, alt-History, or historically-inspired fantasy?

What system are you using?

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on January 18, 2022, 07:27:38 PM
Sounds amazing!  It saddens me to know that that the Song Empire didn't last, and fell to corruption and ultimately barbarian invaders. 

I wonder what stage you will place your civilization in?

Well, there is your campaign right there. Protect the Empire from fast-breeding monsters who are bent on raping and pillaging the Empire. For added drama, have the players be exposed to examples that the Empire has become decadent and should fall.

The old Kara Tur boxed set has plenty of inspirational material.  Not sure if it's even available nowadays due to issues of political correctness.  Several of the recent wuxia rpgs like "Wandering Heroes of Ogre Gate" & "Righteous Blood, Ruthless Blades," offer good setting info.  I think the latter would be pretty easy for most players to gronk if they've seen a few martial arts films.  And it's got plenty of NPCs you could probably convert over to your preferred system if you don't use that one.

My own campaign setting features lands derived from China (more Tang era, though), Japan, and Korea, though these are not necessarily the main areas of action.  I've done one campaign mostly there. 

Personally, I favor the Ming-Qing eras as those are my areas of academic specialty.  But there's enough info out there in English to do pretty much any era of Chinese history.  And many of the major novels & short stories have been translated so you can easily find plots and setting details.  Monkey & Water Margin are probably the best for that, or one of the martial arts novels by Jin Yong.  If you want stuff specifically on the Song, let me know and I can make recommendations.  Water Margin is set in the Song, but was written in the Ming.

My favorite "China" based game is still Dragon Fist. It kept the "kick ass and take names" feel of Wuxia and transplanted it onto a fantasy world inspired by China that used a stripped down version of AD&D 2E with ascending AC and a stunt system. Overall, still love that game.

Quote from: Persimmon on January 18, 2022, 09:40:07 PM
The old Kara Tur boxed set has plenty of inspirational material.  Not sure if it's even available nowadays due to issues of political correctness. 

That won't stop them from taking your money, they're just going to call you a bigot while they take it.

(I'm not going to link it, but it's up on DTRPG, complete with a big bold shout of a virtue signal complaining about how terrible everything used to be and how you're bad if you like it.)

Greetings!

Here is a nice introduction to the Song Dynasty. Featuring Professor Michael Wood as the host.



Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I've read some enlightening descriptions of why medieval China was so different from medieval Europe. The major factors seem to be (a) rice - more calories per acre, higher population density and especially (b) hygiene - Chinese cities were kept very clean, which allowed for much bigger cities.

However China was still in the 'Malthusian Trap' and the result of higher populations and less disease was that China was much closer to the starvation line, with lower income per household and frequent severe famines. Europe had plague, China had famine.

 ;) Song dynasty is a fascinating contradiction. You have to give allowance for a lot of... how to nicely put it... hagiography and good PR because this was a period of simultaneous contraction and loss of homeland (Northern Song & Huang Ho Yellow river), and forced colonization (Nam Viet (not Vietnam, mind you!) & Yangtze river) and displacement (Haka peoples, Northern Song refugees, technically Han, but treated like Han+).

Technically not capitalist, more entrepeneurial, but that also led to special dispensations and immunities to their displaced northern bretheren Haka (the Northern Song), which in turn led to speculation bubbles and great religious revivals, millenarial cults, and much turmoil within and throughout. And the 'barbarians' were winning piece by piece all along the fringes. And all of this news was collated by a counter-reformationist Neo-Confucianism that sought to "clean up" the records to set a good future example to follow. Basically literati rewriting things to win the future of a decaying empire with the right-thinking narratives.  ;) The world may not repeat, but it rhymes -- thanks Matk Twain.

It was an interesting time no doubt, but read from the surrounding outsider lands and internally dispossessed the fissures were very real as the sanctioned choir sang louder. A great period full of contradictions and veneered decadence.

(edit: also little known was China was VERY LATE to the rice game. It was because of the Yangtze river colonization during the Southern Song (and loss of the Huang Ho Yellow river that was wheat growing in Norther Song) that China switched to rice around 1000 CE (AD). Before them Korea, Japan, Vietnam, Ryuukyuu Island (Pirate Isles), good part of SE and South Asia, as well as Persia and Caspian & Tigris Euphrates delta (Basra), was well acquainted with rice for at least a millennia, some even more than one. Rice domestication in Asia being sourced to the Red River by Hanoi and Caspian and Oxus and Mesopotamian Persian Gulf delta in Persia. Strange how technology spreads and can skip areas for long periods -- the Chinese elites favored their wheat until they had to flee their home river.)

Also good to see you back, SHARK!  :D

Interesting setting... And a lot of stuff there you could use.

Quote from: SHARK on January 18, 2022, 07:06:33 PM
Greetings!

Well, in my studies of ancient China, it is especially enlightening to see the contrast between Medieval Europe and Medieval China. Take the Song Empire, around the 10th or 11th centuries, A.D. The Song Empire had cities of over 1 million people, and many, many cities of hundreds of thousands of people. These cities were often highly fortified with extensive walls and towers. The Song cities were highly organized, laid out in districts, all the while being in position to maximize their resources and profitability. Apparently, the Song Empire was capitalist, with merchants of every kind coming and going, trading goods from around the world.

The major cities of the Song Empire had 24-hour business and commerce, with an vibrant nightlife, restaurants of every kind, and promoting artistry and intellectual pursuits everywhere. There were published books--novels, romance novels, books on cuisine and cooking, and more. Evidently, the Song cities were well-lit, well patrolled and guarded. The people everywhere--according to some quoted primary sources--were happy, joyful, industrious, and prosperous.

When thinking about the "Medieval World" in developing my campaigns, it has definitely been eye-opening to consider not just Medieval Europe--but Medieval China as well.

Of course, as a friend pointed out to me, embracing a Medieval Chinese theme for a campaign radically changes many of the underlying assumptions of the game. The Song Empire was clearly the most advanced society on the planet at the time, and approached many modern sensibilities, with 24-hour market-places, nightlife, restaurants, cuisine, international trade, large-scale book publishing, advanced crafting skills, artistry, well-developed theater traditions, advanced universities, paper money, an official and elaborate fashion industry, high court diplomacy, and superior technology and processes in every field. It's staggering to go down a list of all of the achievements and accomplishments of the Song Empire. All o these things were *normal* for the Song Empire.

I suppose embracing a Medieval Chinese theme would radically change many campaign assumptions. What do you think? I have been tempted, for certain. *Laughing*

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

My game Wandering Heroes of Ogre Gate is a fantasy Song Dynasty analog (lots of key aspects are different because it is a fantasy world, and it emulates wuxia and supernatural stories, but the cultural details were modeled after Song Dynasty). RBRB is set in a more timeless china setting modeled after movies and novels . 

Quote from: Opaopajr on January 19, 2022, 04:06:49 AM
;) Song dynasty is a fascinating contradiction. You have to give allowance for a lot of... how to nicely put it... hagiography and good PR because this was a period of simultaneous contraction and loss of homeland (Northern Song & Huang Ho Yellow river), and forced colonization (Nam Viet (not Vietnam, mind you!) & Yangtze river) and displacement (Haka peoples, Northern Song refugees, technically Han, but treated like Han+).

Technically not capitalist, more entrepeneurial, but that also led to special dispensations and immunities to their displaced northern bretheren Haka (the Northern Song), which in turn led to speculation bubbles and great religious revivals, millenarial cults, and much turmoil within and throughout. And the 'barbarians' were winning piece by piece all along the fringes. And all of this news was collated by a counter-reformationist Neo-Confucianism that sought to "clean up" the records to set a good future example to follow. Basically literati rewriting things to win the future of a decaying empire with the right-thinking narratives.  ;) The world may not repeat, but it rhymes -- thanks Matk Twain.

It was an interesting time no doubt, but read from the surrounding outsider lands and internally dispossessed the fissures were very real as the sanctioned choir sang louder. A great period full of contradictions and veneered decadence.

(edit: also little known was China was VERY LATE to the rice game. It was because of the Yangtze river colonization during the Southern Song (and loss of the Huang Ho Yellow river that was wheat growing in Norther Song) that China switched to rice around 1000 CE (AD). Before them Korea, Japan, Vietnam, Ryuukyuu Island (Pirate Isles), good part of SE and South Asia, as well as Persia and Caspian & Tigris Euphrates delta (Basra), was well acquainted with rice for at least a millennia, some even more than one. Rice domestication in Asia being sourced to the Red River by Hanoi and Caspian and Oxus and Mesopotamian Persian Gulf delta in Persia. Strange how technology spreads and can skip areas for long periods -- the Chinese elites favored their wheat until they had to flee their home river.)

Also good to see you back, SHARK!  :D

Not sure where you got the false info that they weren't growing rice in China prior to the Song.  What happened during the Song was that new strains were introduced from Champa.  This allowed for more intensive cropping, particularly in the south, where rice was (and is) more popular and widely grown.  So yeah, the north was more oriented towards other grains, but it wasn't like they had no knowledge of rice or that it wasn't eaten.  The Chinese pioneered rice cultivation and it spread from there to China's neighbors.  But even today, Chinese people will often ask, upon meeting someone, "Rice or noodles?"  This supposedly identifies you as a northerner or southerner.  My wife, who is from the north, is a noodle person.  But, of course she still eats lots of rice too.

As for Neo-Confucianism, that actually started in the late Tang (618-907), but picked up steam in the Southern Song (1127-1279), with the writings of Zhu Xi & the Cheng brothers.  It was initially more of a reaction against Buddhist influence, but once the Northern Song (960-1126) fell to the Jurchens, the anti-barbarian rhetoric in society as a whole increased.  Then it was under the Mongols, ironically enough, that the civil service exams gained their Neo-Confucian emphasis.  They had been much broader in scope before then.  That in itself probably isn't as interesting from a gaming perspective, but you can work the bureaucracy and exam system into plots & scenarios.

If you want a detailed picture of late Song society, read Jacques Gernet's Daily Life in China on the Eve of the Mongol Invasion.  Theoretically, you can also read Marco Polo, but that's not always the easiest read.  Incidentally, some scholars also think the whole thing was made up and Polo never went to China at all.  See: https://www.amazon.com/Did-Marco-Polo-Go-China/dp/0813389992/ref=sr_1_4?crid=1QXDUN8FYV1EO&keywords=frances+wood&qid=1642600213&s=books&sprefix=frances+wood%2Cstripbooks%2C107&sr=1-4

The Chinese produce tons of series that are set in the Middle Ages. Needless to say, you can use them as inspiration.
The most notable one atm is Luoyang, although it is set in the Tang Dynasty, not Song:

Quote from: Rhymer88 on January 19, 2022, 12:33:40 PM
The Chinese produce tons of series that are set in the Middle Ages. Needless to say, you can use them as inspiration.
The most notable one atm is Luoyang, although it is set in the Tang Dynasty, not Song:

For the Tang I would also recommend the Detective Dee movies and the film Legend of the Demon Cat.

There are a lot of good movies and books set in the song dynasty. The condor heroes series spans the Song to Yuan Dynasty (and end at the start of the Ming). The Water Margin is also set in this period. Fourteen Amazons is one of my favorite movies set in this period. Eight Diagram Pole Fighter is another. The Four trilogy is also set in the Song and is probably the most gameable series of movies (it just is easy to see how it would translate into a party in a typical RPG). I am pretty sure the movie Legend of the Mountain also is set during the Song period (but it mostly takes place in a remote haunted fort).

In doing a non-Ancient or Medieval French/England European Setting the focus of the setting has to be its culture and religious/spiritual outlooks on things and how different they are from bog standard European Fantasy. This also includes the cultures Myths and Legends, if there is a pantheon of deities and spiritual ways of life and the way these influence their society.

12th to 14th century European Medieval fantasy has been hammered into us so much that it's become the only form of medieval life that many of us see and a lot of people seem to think that that's how the entire world was like because of this. Even a setting in Europe but placed earlier in history and in a different culture, like how Aquelarre is set in Medieval Spain, has a totally different feel and look to it even though it should be part of the Medieval Europe motif, but it's not.

Ancient and Medieval China definitely needs more attention brought to it.

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on January 18, 2022, 07:27:38 PM
Sounds amazing!  It saddens me to know that that the Song Empire didn't last, and fell to corruption and ultimately barbarian invaders. 

I wonder what stage you will place your civilization in?

Greetings!

Hey there, Svenhelgrim! Yes, it is a truly fascinating subject! I think I will establish the China-like empire at around the 11th-12th centuries. That way, they are still firmly still in a medieval framework.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Even though it is freely available, how many people have read "Outlaws of the Water Margin"?
http://uploads.worldlibrary.net/uploads/pdf/20130423230739the_outlaws_of_the_marsh_pdf.pdf
It's very evocative of a Medieval China setting.

Quote from: Greentongue on January 18, 2022, 08:22:41 PM
While very interesting and certainly a change of pace, I suspect finding people able to wrap their heads around the culture would be a challenge.
I suspect that most people would be willing to watch a movie in the setting and not that interested in trying to play in it.
Unless of course it was just Medieval Europe with funny names.

Greetings!

*Laughing* Hi, Greentongue! Yeah, I'm afraid you may be right. I have some good players, intelligent, well-read, and such, but still, the culture thing can be intimidating for sure. I sometimes wonder, players often have difficulties in trying to grasp anything like a semi-realistic ancient or medieval European milieu--how much more of a barrier to expect them to get into a totally foreign culture?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Pat on January 18, 2022, 08:33:41 PM
It is tough introducing a significantly different setting in RPGs. In a movie, there are all those visuals. In a book, you can have hundreds of pages of descriptive prose. But nobody except a GM is going to read all that crap to play an RPG, and RPGs aren't just passive pre-scripted entertainment, they're freeform and active, which makes it much harder.

The best way might to create a bridge. A way to start in a more familiar setting, and introduce the elements either gradually or through immersion, but with the expectation it's as new to the characters as it is to the players. It can be a distant realm with travelers who visit the PC's home, and maybe take a trip there. It could be a magical gate, or a ship blown off course and sunk, where the PCs are dumped into a new realm and have adapt to the local customs and power structures. The stranger in a strange land is a hoary and effective motif.

Greetings!

Hey there, Pat! Yeah, indeed, I suspect you are right. I will probably have them make their normal characters, then have them go on a great journey and arrive in the China-like empire. Having them roll up native China-like characters might be too overwhelming or them. *Laughing*

Though, you know, honestly, I realize there is this perception, but in my own studies of Ancient China, and Ancient India, both on my own study and for my university course work, much of the differences are often cosmetic. Politically, militarily, economically, family relationships, inheritance--they have all the same issues that Europeans have, from any time period. Similar problems, similar solutions, similar struggles. I often found myself drawing connections between China and India with ancient Greece, the Roman Empire, Charlemagne, Emperor Justinian and Byzantium, Grand Prince Vladimir of Rus--it all seems relatable to me, personally.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Not that it matters for roleplaying purposes, but the Song is not regarded as "medieval" China.  Only specialists in European history would apply such a designation to the Song.  It is generally considered early modern, or perhaps late imperial, with the Ming (1368-1644) generally being considered the advent of modern China by specialists.  For example, per capita iron production rates achieved in the Song were not surpassed elsewhere in the world until the Industrial Revolution.  And Shark has already mentioned many other notable traits.

For adventuring purposes, having your players go to the mysterious Celestial Empire of (insert name here) to say, retrieve a rare herb, magic item, or scroll, or help sign a treaty against a common enemy would all be good ways to introduce them to this "exotic" place.  The old Horde boxed set for AD&D 2e has stuff you could use, or maybe wait for Pundit to publish his Silk Road game.  And, as we've discussed there are plenty of real world sources to mine from Marco Polo to William of Rubruck.  好運!

Quote from: Persimmon on January 19, 2022, 09:21:21 PM
Not that it matters for roleplaying purposes, but the Song is not regarded as "medieval" China.  Only specialists in European history would apply such a designation to the Song.  It is generally considered early modern, or perhaps late imperial, with the Ming (1368-1644) generally being considered the advent of modern China by specialists.  For example, per capita iron production rates achieved in the Song were not surpassed elsewhere in the world until the Industrial Revolution.  And Shark has already mentioned many other notable traits.

For adventuring purposes, having your players go to the mysterious Celestial Empire of (insert name here) to say, retrieve a rare herb, magic item, or scroll, or help sign a treaty against a common enemy would all be good ways to introduce them to this "exotic" place.  The old Horde boxed set for AD&D 2e has stuff you could use, or maybe wait for Pundit to publish his Silk Road game.  And, as we've discussed there are plenty of real world sources to mine from Marco Polo to William of Rubruck.  好運!

Is Pundit doing a Silk Roads game? I know he mentioned during the recent love stream that he had a massive amount of knowledge on China... Was really hoping he would do an OSR China game similar to Dark Albion / Lion and Dragon. I'd be interested to see how he would design such a game.

Quote from: World_Warrior on January 18, 2022, 08:40:02 PM
I would like to hear more. What system would you use? One problem I always have with running a Chinese-inspired game is martial arts. I was never satisfied with how AD&D or D&D 3 did their martial arts systems.

Greetings!

Cheers, World Warrior! System-wise, I use D&D 5E.

As for Martial Arts, with the way that Hit Points, AC, and damage work in D&D, it is fairly simple to create a few Martial Arts Feats (Traditions) which increase unarmed combat damage, initiative, an individual's AC, and be done with it. Weapons are, at the end of the day, of primary importance.

I have developed three large empires and kingdoms in my China-like area, with a dozen neighboring kingdoms or territories. There are 6 major religions, and about 25 prominent human languages. Besides the larger human kingdoms, there are also many human Pagan tribes that live throughout the rugged wilderness. Along the coasts, there are several large groups of islands, featuring powerful pirate states. There are 6 distinctive Monastic Traditions, and many philosophies.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on January 19, 2022, 09:43:14 PM

Quote from: World_Warrior on January 18, 2022, 08:40:02 PM
I would like to hear more. What system would you use? One problem I always have with running a Chinese-inspired game is martial arts. I was never satisfied with how AD&D or D&D 3 did their martial arts systems.

Greetings!

Cheers, World Warrior! System-wise, I use D&D 5E.

As for Martial Arts, with the way that Hit Points, AC, and damage work in D&D, it is fairly simple to create a few Martial Arts Feats (Traditions) which increase unarmed combat damage, initiative, an individual's AC, and be done with it. Weapons are, at the end of the day, of primary importance.

I have developed three large empires and kingdoms in my China-like area, with a dozen neighboring kingdoms or territories. There are 6 major religions, and about 25 prominent human languages. Besides the larger human kingdoms, there are also many human Pagan tribes that live throughout the rugged wilderness. Along the coasts, there are several large groups of islands, featuring powerful pirate states. There are 6 distinctive Monastic Traditions, and many philosophies.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

That sounds awesome. The one thing that 5E did right was giving more with the Feats, instead of chaining long sequences of Feats together to get what you wanted. I could easily see entire kung fu stances and even some secret techniques being done as Feats.

I have thought about how Pundit does his magic system in Lion and Dragon, and have considered eventually doing a martial arts system that takes the framework of the OA system, but instead of the basic moves, replacing with more Wuxia-style techniques. Unlike a Proficiency system (OA), Feats (3E), or Vancian-type Maneuver system (Dragon Fist), I'd just have characters have the ability to train to learn new techniques at each level (probably a DC check or something) but can also learn extra techniques by deciphering ancient manuals or learning from crazed kung fu hermits, etc. Less balance and more engagement from players.

But that's how I would do it.

The Feat system for 5E would absolutely work for that system.

Quote from: Aglondir on January 18, 2022, 09:02:49 PM
Sounds excellent! The Tang dynasty is my favorite, but the Song has so many possibilities.

Are you thinking historical, alt-History, or historically-inspired fantasy?

What system are you using?

Greetings!

Aglondir! How are you doing?

Yes, I will be using History-inspired fantasy. I have my own world of Thandor, with historical analogs, but the map of course is different. I use D&D 5E. I designed my world to be larger than our own world, essentially so that I could fit in all the various historical realms I wanted, plus have lots of room for many of the implied races of the game--Orcs, Beastmen, Ogres, Giants, Dragons, and more. Then, I also wanted to always have plenty of additional weird space available for random, hybrid kingdoms, or kingdoms raised up by player characters within the game campaign.

So, yes, the world is vaguely familiar, while also different.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: jeff37923 on January 18, 2022, 09:33:17 PM

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on January 18, 2022, 07:27:38 PM
Sounds amazing!  It saddens me to know that that the Song Empire didn't last, and fell to corruption and ultimately barbarian invaders. 

I wonder what stage you will place your civilization in?

Well, there is your campaign right there. Protect the Empire from fast-breeding monsters who are bent on raping and pillaging the Empire. For added drama, have the players be exposed to examples that the Empire has become decadent and should fall.

Greetings!

Hey there, Jeff! *Laughing* Yes, yes, so many cool possibilities! It is interesting, too, that ancient China actually often yo-yo'd back and forth between virtue and competence, and corruption and decadence throughout the centuries. Lots of endless drama and tension.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on January 19, 2022, 09:04:33 PM

Quote from: Pat on January 18, 2022, 08:33:41 PM
It is tough introducing a significantly different setting in RPGs. In a movie, there are all those visuals. In a book, you can have hundreds of pages of descriptive prose. But nobody except a GM is going to read all that crap to play an RPG, and RPGs aren't just passive pre-scripted entertainment, they're freeform and active, which makes it much harder.

The best way might to create a bridge. A way to start in a more familiar setting, and introduce the elements either gradually or through immersion, but with the expectation it's as new to the characters as it is to the players. It can be a distant realm with travelers who visit the PC's home, and maybe take a trip there. It could be a magical gate, or a ship blown off course and sunk, where the PCs are dumped into a new realm and have adapt to the local customs and power structures. The stranger in a strange land is a hoary and effective motif.

Greetings!

Hey there, Pat! Yeah, indeed, I suspect you are right. I will probably have them make their normal characters, then have them go on a great journey and arrive in the China-like empire. Having them roll up native China-like characters might be too overwhelming or them. *Laughing*

Though, you know, honestly, I realize there is this perception, but in my own studies of Ancient China, and Ancient India, both on my own study and for my university course work, much of the differences are often cosmetic. Politically, militarily, economically, family relationships, inheritance--they have all the same issues that Europeans have, from any time period. Similar problems, similar solutions, similar struggles. I often found myself drawing connections between China and India with ancient Greece, the Roman Empire, Charlemagne, Emperor Justinian and Byzantium, Grand Prince Vladimir of Rus--it all seems relatable to me, personally.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Pre-industrial societies generally have a lot in common with one another. However, it's a problem when you try to make historically-based settings, because most players have a totally 21st century Western mindset. It's also why most "European" D&D settings are, in fact, primarily American in style.  The values and worldview of Medieval Europe would be completely alien to most D&D players today.

Quote from: Persimmon on January 18, 2022, 09:40:07 PM
The old Kara Tur boxed set has plenty of inspirational material.  Not sure if it's even available nowadays due to issues of political correctness.  Several of the recent wuxia rpgs like "Wandering Heroes of Ogre Gate" & "Righteous Blood, Ruthless Blades," offer good setting info.  I think the latter would be pretty easy for most players to gronk if they've seen a few martial arts films.  And it's got plenty of NPCs you could probably convert over to your preferred system if you don't use that one.

My own campaign setting features lands derived from China (more Tang era, though), Japan, and Korea, though these are not necessarily the main areas of action.  I've done one campaign mostly there. 

Personally, I favor the Ming-Qing eras as those are my areas of academic specialty.  But there's enough info out there in English to do pretty much any era of Chinese history.  And many of the major novels & short stories have been translated so you can easily find plots and setting details.  Monkey & Water Margin are probably the best for that, or one of the martial arts novels by Jin Yong.  If you want stuff specifically on the Song, let me know and I can make recommendations.  Water Margin is set in the Song, but was written in the Ming.

Greetings!

Good Morning, Persimmon! Excellent! Yes, I actually have an original Kara Tur Boxed Set in my collection. I'll have to dig it out!

You specialized in the Ming/Qing Dynasties? Damn, that's awesome, my friend! Where did you go to school for that? Did your school have a great Asian Studies Program? That's so cool. I love it!

Myself, my main focus was Ancient & Medieval Europe, specializing in Ancient Greece and Ancient Rome. My university required us to select two secondary specialties--I picked American History, and Asian History, specializing in Ancient China & Ancient India. My university even established its own special Yadunandan Center for India Studies. I was going to take courses in Sanskrit, ahh, but geesus. You know how crazy the course work can be like at upper levels. There's only so much you can do in a set time frame.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I wonder if having real "Immortals" would still allow the fall by corruption or if it would actually be faster?
A "divine" central leader seems common. Though not unique to Asian kingdoms.

Quote from: S'mon on January 19, 2022, 02:28:03 AM
I've read some enlightening descriptions of why medieval China was so different from medieval Europe. The major factors seem to be (a) rice - more calories per acre, higher population density and especially (b) hygiene - Chinese cities were kept very clean, which allowed for much bigger cities.

However China was still in the 'Malthusian Trap' and the result of higher populations and less disease was that China was much closer to the starvation line, with lower income per household and frequent severe famines. Europe had plague, China had famine.

Greetings!

Hey S'mon! How are you my friend? Have you ever met Professor Michael Wood? He's a pretty prominent historian that teaches just up the road from you, at the University of Manchester! He seems like an awesome fellow, a great gentleman, and solid scholar. Professor Wood maintains that the people of the Song Dynasty were very well-fed; even the middle and poorer classes were eating good. He says they were probably the best fed population in the world.

Also interesting, famine often arrived in China after the Yellow River flooded periodically. The Yellow River floods would often kill *millions* of people, with several million more dying of famine. That's staggering to think about, you know? It blew me away learning about that!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Shark if you haven't already read it, I highly recommend the book Dividing the Realm in order to Govern: The Spatial Organization of the Song Dynasty. That is a very useful one for helping with world building. Another one I find I go back to a lot is Law and Order in the Sung China by Brian E McKnight (again helpful information for world building purposes). If you can find a copy, A Dictionary of Official Titles in Imperial China by Charles O Hucker is a useful thing to have at the table during play and when you are making adventures (the imperial bureaucracy is very important and knowing different official positions and their ranks---the dictionary doesn't give the ranks for all of them, but does provide many of the ranks---is really helpful). The entries also say which time periods the titles belong to (and usually gives information if the title changed). It is a bit messy at times, but the book is so chock full of stuff you can use. The beginning of the book also briefly covers the government structure of the different dynasties.

Quote from: Opaopajr on January 19, 2022, 04:06:49 AM
;) Song dynasty is a fascinating contradiction. You have to give allowance for a lot of... how to nicely put it... hagiography and good PR because this was a period of simultaneous contraction and loss of homeland (Northern Song & Huang Ho Yellow river), and forced colonization (Nam Viet (not Vietnam, mind you!) & Yangtze river) and displacement (Haka peoples, Northern Song refugees, technically Han, but treated like Han+).

Technically not capitalist, more entrepeneurial, but that also led to special dispensations and immunities to their displaced northern bretheren Haka (the Northern Song), which in turn led to speculation bubbles and great religious revivals, millenarial cults, and much turmoil within and throughout. And the 'barbarians' were winning piece by piece all along the fringes. And all of this news was collated by a counter-reformationist Neo-Confucianism that sought to "clean up" the records to set a good future example to follow. Basically literati rewriting things to win the future of a decaying empire with the right-thinking narratives.  ;) The world may not repeat, but it rhymes -- thanks Matk Twain.

It was an interesting time no doubt, but read from the surrounding outsider lands and internally dispossessed the fissures were very real as the sanctioned choir sang louder. A great period full of contradictions and veneered decadence.

(edit: also little known was China was VERY LATE to the rice game. It was because of the Yangtze river colonization during the Southern Song (and loss of the Huang Ho Yellow river that was wheat growing in Norther Song) that China switched to rice around 1000 CE (AD). Before them Korea, Japan, Vietnam, Ryuukyuu Island (Pirate Isles), good part of SE and South Asia, as well as Persia and Caspian & Tigris Euphrates delta (Basra), was well acquainted with rice for at least a millennia, some even more than one. Rice domestication in Asia being sourced to the Red River by Hanoi and Caspian and Oxus and Mesopotamian Persian Gulf delta in Persia. Strange how technology spreads and can skip areas for long periods -- the Chinese elites favored their wheat until they had to flee their home river.)

Also good to see you back, SHARK!  :D

Greetings!

Thank you, my friend!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Rhymer88 on January 19, 2022, 12:33:40 PM
The Chinese produce tons of series that are set in the Middle Ages. Needless to say, you can use them as inspiration.
The most notable one atm is Luoyang, although it is set in the Tang Dynasty, not Song:

Greetings!

This program looks awesome!

I will definitely be tracking this program down!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: RebelSky on January 19, 2022, 02:07:26 PM
In doing a non-Ancient or Medieval French/England European Setting the focus of the setting has to be its culture and religious/spiritual outlooks on things and how different they are from bog standard European Fantasy. This also includes the cultures Myths and Legends, if there is a pantheon of deities and spiritual ways of life and the way these influence their society.

12th to 14th century European Medieval fantasy has been hammered into us so much that it's become the only form of medieval life that many of us see and a lot of people seem to think that that's how the entire world was like because of this. Even a setting in Europe but placed earlier in history and in a different culture, like how Aquelarre is set in Medieval Spain, has a totally different feel and look to it even though it should be part of the Medieval Europe motif, but it's not.

Ancient and Medieval China definitely needs more attention brought to it.

Greetings!

*Laughing* Indeed, Rebelsky, so true, huh? It's kind of sad when you run into people that believe it's only possible to have an army of 5 or 10,000 soldiers in a medieval environment. The Emperor Huangdi at 50 A.D. raised over 1,000,000 troops in his ferocious army, as he conquered the other seven kingdoms to unify all of China and become the first Emperor. Many people's reference points are also very narrow, simply because they haven't read enough, or broadly enough. So many different things going on in Russia; in India; in Ancient China. Like you said, even in southern France things were different. Hammered into us is right, huh?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on January 20, 2022, 06:52:10 AM

Quote from: Persimmon on January 18, 2022, 09:40:07 PM
The old Kara Tur boxed set has plenty of inspirational material.  Not sure if it's even available nowadays due to issues of political correctness.  Several of the recent wuxia rpgs like "Wandering Heroes of Ogre Gate" & "Righteous Blood, Ruthless Blades," offer good setting info.  I think the latter would be pretty easy for most players to gronk if they've seen a few martial arts films.  And it's got plenty of NPCs you could probably convert over to your preferred system if you don't use that one.

My own campaign setting features lands derived from China (more Tang era, though), Japan, and Korea, though these are not necessarily the main areas of action.  I've done one campaign mostly there. 

Personally, I favor the Ming-Qing eras as those are my areas of academic specialty.  But there's enough info out there in English to do pretty much any era of Chinese history.  And many of the major novels & short stories have been translated so you can easily find plots and setting details.  Monkey & Water Margin are probably the best for that, or one of the martial arts novels by Jin Yong.  If you want stuff specifically on the Song, let me know and I can make recommendations.  Water Margin is set in the Song, but was written in the Ming.

Greetings!

Good Morning, Persimmon! Excellent! Yes, I actually have an original Kara Tur Boxed Set in my collection. I'll have to dig it out!

You specialized in the Ming/Qing Dynasties? Damn, that's awesome, my friend! Where did you go to school for that? Did your school have a great Asian Studies Program? That's so cool. I love it!

Myself, my main focus was Ancient & Medieval Europe, specializing in Ancient Greece and Ancient Rome. My university required us to select two secondary specialties--I picked American History, and Asian History, specializing in Ancient China & Ancient India. My university even established its own special Yadunandan Center for India Studies. I was going to take courses in Sanskrit, ahh, but geesus. You know how crazy the course work can be like at upper levels. There's only so much you can do in a set time frame.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Hey Shark,

I got my B.A. at The College of Wooster (OH) and my M.A. & Ph.D. at the University of Michigan.  I did my archival research at the Academia Sinica in Taiwan.  Since graduating I've done research in Korea, Japan, and mainland China.  I specialize in Ming-Qing military history.  I currently teach at Southern Miss and serve as the Book Review Editor of The Journal of Chinese Military History. 

If you're super interested you can find my books on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.com/Dragons-Head-Serpents-Tail-Commanders/dp/0806155817/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2XW49XIJBEQ6S&keywords=a+dragon%27s+head+and+a+serpent%27s+tail&qid=1642685120&sprefix=a+dragon%27s+%2Caps%2C159&sr=8-1
https://www.amazon.com/Military-Collapse-Dynasty-1618-44-Empires-ebook/dp/B00I06LPK0/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1Y6YJ21YZIFL1&keywords=the+military+collapse+of+china%27s+ming+dynasty&qid=1642685167&sprefix=the+military+collapse+of+china%27s+ming+dynasty%2Caps%2C122&sr=8-1
https://www.amazon.com/Trail-Yellow-Tiger-Dislocation-Transition/dp/0803249950/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1DDY3VACU2COZ&
keywords=on+the+trail+of+the+yellow+tiger&qid=1642685225&sprefix=on+the+trail+of+the+yellow+tiger%2Caps%2C106&sr=8-1

My current book is a military biography of General Zuo Zongtang (1812-1885), known to Americans as the namesake of General Zuo's chicken, but known in China for helping suppress the Taiping Rebellion, which was the largest civil war in world history, then crushing a series of Muslim revolts in the northwest and Central Asia which resulted in the creation of Xinjiang province, currently a hotbed of Uighur unrest.

As I said, your proposed campaign sounds great & I look forward to hearing about it!

Quote from: Persimmon on January 19, 2022, 09:21:21 PM
Not that it matters for roleplaying purposes, but the Song is not regarded as "medieval" China.  Only specialists in European history would apply such a designation to the Song.  It is generally considered early modern, or perhaps late imperial, with the Ming (1368-1644) generally being considered the advent of modern China by specialists.  For example, per capita iron production rates achieved in the Song were not surpassed elsewhere in the world until the Industrial Revolution.  And Shark has already mentioned many other notable traits.

For adventuring purposes, having your players go to the mysterious Celestial Empire of (insert name here) to say, retrieve a rare herb, magic item, or scroll, or help sign a treaty against a common enemy would all be good ways to introduce them to this "exotic" place.  The old Horde boxed set for AD&D 2e has stuff you could use, or maybe wait for Pundit to publish his Silk Road game.  And, as we've discussed there are plenty of real world sources to mine from Marco Polo to William of Rubruck.  好運!

Greetings!

Yeah, Persimmon, *Raises Hand*. I'm guilty of not getting out of my European History framework when thinking of time frames in Chinese Dynasties.

I like the idea of sending the group to the "Celestial Empire" like a baby pool, and gradually letting them swim in the shallow end. I don't want them overwhelmed with cultural, religious, political, and social details in a flood. *Laughing*

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on January 20, 2022, 07:23:48 AM
Shark if you haven't already read it, I highly recommend the book Dividing the Realm in order to Govern: The Spatial Organization of the Song Dynasty. That is a very useful one for helping with world building. Another one I find I go back to a lot is Law and Order in the Sung China by Brian E McKnight (again helpful information for world building purposes). If you can find a copy, A Dictionary of Official Titles in Imperial China by Charles O Hucker is a useful thing to have at the table during play and when you are making adventures (the imperial bureaucracy is very important and knowing different official positions and their ranks---the dictionary doesn't give the ranks for all of them, but does provide many of the ranks---is really helpful). The entries also say which time periods the titles belong to (and usually gives information if the title changed). It is a bit messy at times, but the book is so chock full of stuff you can use. The beginning of the book also briefly covers the government structure of the different dynasties.

Good old Charles Hucker.  We had to buy that book in grad school for my course in Song history because we were reading the primary sources.  I'm still reaching for it from time to time.  And the book also has organizational charts for the central governments of the various dynasties.

Quote from: Rhymer88 on January 20, 2022, 06:50:28 AM

Quote from: SHARK on January 19, 2022, 09:04:33 PM

Quote from: Pat on January 18, 2022, 08:33:41 PM
It is tough introducing a significantly different setting in RPGs. In a movie, there are all those visuals. In a book, you can have hundreds of pages of descriptive prose. But nobody except a GM is going to read all that crap to play an RPG, and RPGs aren't just passive pre-scripted entertainment, they're freeform and active, which makes it much harder.

The best way might to create a bridge. A way to start in a more familiar setting, and introduce the elements either gradually or through immersion, but with the expectation it's as new to the characters as it is to the players. It can be a distant realm with travelers who visit the PC's home, and maybe take a trip there. It could be a magical gate, or a ship blown off course and sunk, where the PCs are dumped into a new realm and have adapt to the local customs and power structures. The stranger in a strange land is a hoary and effective motif.

Greetings!

Hey there, Pat! Yeah, indeed, I suspect you are right. I will probably have them make their normal characters, then have them go on a great journey and arrive in the China-like empire. Having them roll up native China-like characters might be too overwhelming or them. *Laughing*

Though, you know, honestly, I realize there is this perception, but in my own studies of Ancient China, and Ancient India, both on my own study and for my university course work, much of the differences are often cosmetic. Politically, militarily, economically, family relationships, inheritance--they have all the same issues that Europeans have, from any time period. Similar problems, similar solutions, similar struggles. I often found myself drawing connections between China and India with ancient Greece, the Roman Empire, Charlemagne, Emperor Justinian and Byzantium, Grand Prince Vladimir of Rus--it all seems relatable to me, personally.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Pre-industrial societies generally have a lot in common with one another. However, it's a problem when you try to make historically-based settings, because most players have a totally 21st century Western mindset. It's also why most "European" D&D settings are, in fact, primarily American in style.  The values and worldview of Medieval Europe would be completely alien to most D&D players today.

Greeting!

Oh, yes, Rhymer88! *Laughing* It is definitely a challenge trying to get people to not view things in-game like it is the 21st Century America. So true! The values and worldview of Medieval Europe would be completely alien to most D&D players today! Oh, you KNOW that's right!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on January 20, 2022, 07:23:48 AM
Shark if you haven't already read it, I highly recommend the book Dividing the Realm in order to Govern: The Spatial Organization of the Song Dynasty. That is a very useful one for helping with world building. Another one I find I go back to a lot is Law and Order in the Sung China by Brian E McKnight (again helpful information for world building purposes). If you can find a copy, A Dictionary of Official Titles in Imperial China by Charles O Hucker is a useful thing to have at the table during play and when you are making adventures (the imperial bureaucracy is very important and knowing different official positions and their ranks---the dictionary doesn't give the ranks for all of them, but does provide many of the ranks---is really helpful). The entries also say which time periods the titles belong to (and usually gives information if the title changed). It is a bit messy at times, but the book is so chock full of stuff you can use. The beginning of the book also briefly covers the government structure of the different dynasties.

Greetings!

Thank you, BedrockBrendan! Those sound like excellent resources. I love all the crazy details!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Persimmon on January 19, 2022, 08:51:03 AM

Quote from: Opaopajr on January 19, 2022, 04:06:49 AM
;) Song dynasty is a fascinating contradiction. You have to give allowance for a lot of... how to nicely put it... hagiography and good PR because this was a period of simultaneous contraction and loss of homeland (Northern Song & Huang Ho Yellow river), and forced colonization (Nam Viet (not Vietnam, mind you!) & Yangtze river) and displacement (Haka peoples, Northern Song refugees, technically Han, but treated like Han+).

Technically not capitalist, more entrepeneurial, but that also led to special dispensations and immunities to their displaced northern bretheren Haka (the Northern Song), which in turn led to speculation bubbles and great religious revivals, millenarial cults, and much turmoil within and throughout. And the 'barbarians' were winning piece by piece all along the fringes. And all of this news was collated by a counter-reformationist Neo-Confucianism that sought to "clean up" the records to set a good future example to follow. Basically literati rewriting things to win the future of a decaying empire with the right-thinking narratives.  ;) The world may not repeat, but it rhymes -- thanks Matk Twain.

It was an interesting time no doubt, but read from the surrounding outsider lands and internally dispossessed the fissures were very real as the sanctioned choir sang louder. A great period full of contradictions and veneered decadence.

(edit: also little known was China was VERY LATE to the rice game. It was because of the Yangtze river colonization during the Southern Song (and loss of the Huang Ho Yellow river that was wheat growing in Norther Song) that China switched to rice around 1000 CE (AD). Before them Korea, Japan, Vietnam, Ryuukyuu Island (Pirate Isles), good part of SE and South Asia, as well as Persia and Caspian & Tigris Euphrates delta (Basra), was well acquainted with rice for at least a millennia, some even more than one. Rice domestication in Asia being sourced to the Red River by Hanoi and Caspian and Oxus and Mesopotamian Persian Gulf delta in Persia. Strange how technology spreads and can skip areas for long periods -- the Chinese elites favored their wheat until they had to flee their home river.)

Also good to see you back, SHARK!  :D

Not sure where you got the false info that they weren't growing rice in China prior to the Song.  What happened during the Song was that new strains were introduced from Champa.  This allowed for more intensive cropping, particularly in the south, where rice was (and is) more popular and widely grown.  So yeah, the north was more oriented towards other grains, but it wasn't like they had no knowledge of rice or that it wasn't eaten.  The Chinese pioneered rice cultivation and it spread from there to China's neighbors.  But even today, Chinese people will often ask, upon meeting someone, "Rice or noodles?"  This supposedly identifies you as a northerner or southerner.  My wife, who is from the north, is a noodle person.  But, of course she still eats lots of rice too.

As for Neo-Confucianism, that actually started in the late Tang (618-907), but picked up steam in the Southern Song (1127-1279), with the writings of Zhu Xi & the Cheng brothers.  It was initially more of a reaction against Buddhist influence, but once the Northern Song (960-1126) fell to the Jurchens, the anti-barbarian rhetoric in society as a whole increased.  Then it was under the Mongols, ironically enough, that the civil service exams gained their Neo-Confucian emphasis.  They had been much broader in scope before then.  That in itself probably isn't as interesting from a gaming perspective, but you can work the bureaucracy and exam system into plots & scenarios.

If you want a detailed picture of late Song society, read Jacques Gernet's Daily Life in China on the Eve of the Mongol Invasion.  Theoretically, you can also read Marco Polo, but that's not always the easiest read.  Incidentally, some scholars also think the whole thing was made up and Polo never went to China at all.  See: https://www.amazon.com/Did-Marco-Polo-Go-China/dp/0813389992/ref=sr_1_4?crid=1QXDUN8FYV1EO&keywords=frances+wood&qid=1642600213&s=books&sprefix=frances+wood%2Cstripbooks%2C107&sr=1-4

The Song is when China switched to a predominant rice growing culture. Rice was known, but like many discoveries during Nam Viet colonization it was considered 'too foreign' to be the mainstay and during the Tang there was a greater horse culture influence going on. And Neo-Confucianism really came into its own in the Song, much to I think Confucianism's regret. There was a touch of the Legalists 'apologia to abused power' legacy I think in the Neo-Confucian restructuring. But the times were emotionally hard as a period of lamented contraction, yet material indulgence. An interesting period to game in to be sure!

Quote from: Persimmon on January 20, 2022, 08:31:10 AM

Quote from: SHARK on January 20, 2022, 06:52:10 AM

Quote from: Persimmon on January 18, 2022, 09:40:07 PM
The old Kara Tur boxed set has plenty of inspirational material.  Not sure if it's even available nowadays due to issues of political correctness.  Several of the recent wuxia rpgs like "Wandering Heroes of Ogre Gate" & "Righteous Blood, Ruthless Blades," offer good setting info.  I think the latter would be pretty easy for most players to gronk if they've seen a few martial arts films.  And it's got plenty of NPCs you could probably convert over to your preferred system if you don't use that one.

My own campaign setting features lands derived from China (more Tang era, though), Japan, and Korea, though these are not necessarily the main areas of action.  I've done one campaign mostly there. 

Personally, I favor the Ming-Qing eras as those are my areas of academic specialty.  But there's enough info out there in English to do pretty much any era of Chinese history.  And many of the major novels & short stories have been translated so you can easily find plots and setting details.  Monkey & Water Margin are probably the best for that, or one of the martial arts novels by Jin Yong.  If you want stuff specifically on the Song, let me know and I can make recommendations.  Water Margin is set in the Song, but was written in the Ming.

Greetings!

Good Morning, Persimmon! Excellent! Yes, I actually have an original Kara Tur Boxed Set in my collection. I'll have to dig it out!

You specialized in the Ming/Qing Dynasties? Damn, that's awesome, my friend! Where did you go to school for that? Did your school have a great Asian Studies Program? That's so cool. I love it!

Myself, my main focus was Ancient & Medieval Europe, specializing in Ancient Greece and Ancient Rome. My university required us to select two secondary specialties--I picked American History, and Asian History, specializing in Ancient China & Ancient India. My university even established its own special Yadunandan Center for India Studies. I was going to take courses in Sanskrit, ahh, but geesus. You know how crazy the course work can be like at upper levels. There's only so much you can do in a set time frame.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Hey Shark,

I got my B.A. at The College of Wooster (OH) and my M.A. & Ph.D. at the University of Michigan.  I did my archival research at the Academia Sinica in Taiwan.  Since graduating I've done research in Korea, Japan, and mainland China.  I specialize in Ming-Qing military history.  I currently teach at Southern Miss and serve as the Book Review Editor of The Journal of Chinese Military History. 

If you're super interested you can find my books on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.com/Dragons-Head-Serpents-Tail-Commanders/dp/0806155817/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2XW49XIJBEQ6S&keywords=a+dragon%27s+head+and+a+serpent%27s+tail&qid=1642685120&sprefix=a+dragon%27s+%2Caps%2C159&sr=8-1
https://www.amazon.com/Military-Collapse-Dynasty-1618-44-Empires-ebook/dp/B00I06LPK0/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1Y6YJ21YZIFL1&keywords=the+military+collapse+of+china%27s+ming+dynasty&qid=1642685167&sprefix=the+military+collapse+of+china%27s+ming+dynasty%2Caps%2C122&sr=8-1
https://www.amazon.com/Trail-Yellow-Tiger-Dislocation-Transition/dp/0803249950/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1DDY3VACU2COZ&
keywords=on+the+trail+of+the+yellow+tiger&qid=1642685225&sprefix=on+the+trail+of+the+yellow+tiger%2Caps%2C106&sr=8-1

My current book is a military biography of General Zuo Zongtang (1812-1885), known to Americans as the namesake of General Zuo's chicken, but known in China for helping suppress the Taiping Rebellion, which was the largest civil war in world history, then crushing a series of Muslim revolts in the northwest and Central Asia which resulted in the creation of Xinjiang province, currently a hotbed of Uighur unrest.

As I said, your proposed campaign sounds great & I look forward to hearing about it!

Interesting! My minor History focus was on East Asia as well. But as much as I did for China it was predominantly on the rest of East Asia, especially Humanities: culture, arts, cuisine, philosophy, religion, and exchange. The dialogue and archaeology from the neighbors around China has delightful... discrepancies to popular narratives. But I still love all of the friction, tracing ideas as they travel!

Due to your interest in war, if you ever get a chance I recommend the War Museum in Seoul, Korea. It is excellent. When talking to Museum Studies majors they would appreciate their application of modern practice. You might love it!

Quote from: Opaopajr on January 20, 2022, 09:33:08 AM

Quote from: Persimmon on January 20, 2022, 08:31:10 AM

Quote from: SHARK on January 20, 2022, 06:52:10 AM

Quote from: Persimmon on January 18, 2022, 09:40:07 PM
The old Kara Tur boxed set has plenty of inspirational material.  Not sure if it's even available nowadays due to issues of political correctness.  Several of the recent wuxia rpgs like "Wandering Heroes of Ogre Gate" & "Righteous Blood, Ruthless Blades," offer good setting info.  I think the latter would be pretty easy for most players to gronk if they've seen a few martial arts films.  And it's got plenty of NPCs you could probably convert over to your preferred system if you don't use that one.

My own campaign setting features lands derived from China (more Tang era, though), Japan, and Korea, though these are not necessarily the main areas of action.  I've done one campaign mostly there. 

Personally, I favor the Ming-Qing eras as those are my areas of academic specialty.  But there's enough info out there in English to do pretty much any era of Chinese history.  And many of the major novels & short stories have been translated so you can easily find plots and setting details.  Monkey & Water Margin are probably the best for that, or one of the martial arts novels by Jin Yong.  If you want stuff specifically on the Song, let me know and I can make recommendations.  Water Margin is set in the Song, but was written in the Ming.

Greetings!

Good Morning, Persimmon! Excellent! Yes, I actually have an original Kara Tur Boxed Set in my collection. I'll have to dig it out!

You specialized in the Ming/Qing Dynasties? Damn, that's awesome, my friend! Where did you go to school for that? Did your school have a great Asian Studies Program? That's so cool. I love it!

Myself, my main focus was Ancient & Medieval Europe, specializing in Ancient Greece and Ancient Rome. My university required us to select two secondary specialties--I picked American History, and Asian History, specializing in Ancient China & Ancient India. My university even established its own special Yadunandan Center for India Studies. I was going to take courses in Sanskrit, ahh, but geesus. You know how crazy the course work can be like at upper levels. There's only so much you can do in a set time frame.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Hey Shark,

I got my B.A. at The College of Wooster (OH) and my M.A. & Ph.D. at the University of Michigan.  I did my archival research at the Academia Sinica in Taiwan.  Since graduating I've done research in Korea, Japan, and mainland China.  I specialize in Ming-Qing military history.  I currently teach at Southern Miss and serve as the Book Review Editor of The Journal of Chinese Military History. 

If you're super interested you can find my books on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.com/Dragons-Head-Serpents-Tail-Commanders/dp/0806155817/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2XW49XIJBEQ6S&keywords=a+dragon%27s+head+and+a+serpent%27s+tail&qid=1642685120&sprefix=a+dragon%27s+%2Caps%2C159&sr=8-1
https://www.amazon.com/Military-Collapse-Dynasty-1618-44-Empires-ebook/dp/B00I06LPK0/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1Y6YJ21YZIFL1&keywords=the+military+collapse+of+china%27s+ming+dynasty&qid=1642685167&sprefix=the+military+collapse+of+china%27s+ming+dynasty%2Caps%2C122&sr=8-1
https://www.amazon.com/Trail-Yellow-Tiger-Dislocation-Transition/dp/0803249950/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1DDY3VACU2COZ&
keywords=on+the+trail+of+the+yellow+tiger&qid=1642685225&sprefix=on+the+trail+of+the+yellow+tiger%2Caps%2C106&sr=8-1

My current book is a military biography of General Zuo Zongtang (1812-1885), known to Americans as the namesake of General Zuo's chicken, but known in China for helping suppress the Taiping Rebellion, which was the largest civil war in world history, then crushing a series of Muslim revolts in the northwest and Central Asia which resulted in the creation of Xinjiang province, currently a hotbed of Uighur unrest.

As I said, your proposed campaign sounds great & I look forward to hearing about it!

Interesting! My minor History focus was on East Asia as well. But as much as I did for China it was predominantly on the rest of East Asia, especially Humanities: culture, arts, cuisine, philosophy, religion, and exchange. The dialogue and archaeology from the neighbors around China has delightful... discrepancies to popular narratives. But I still love all of the friction, tracing ideas as they travel!

Due to your interest in war, if you ever get a chance I recommend the War Museum in Seoul, Korea. It is excellent. When talking to Museum Studies majors they would appreciate their application of modern practice. You might love it!

Greetings!

Opaopajr! You studied East Asia, too? Like Tibet, Vietnam, Thailand?

I have of course done some reading and study of ancient Vietnam and Thailand, and damn, there's more good things and drama going on there, too. Wars, armies, kings, dynasties, religions, great cities, temples built, lots of drama, too. They also liked using lots of war Elephants!!! As I recall, for many centuries, Thailand blended Hinduism with Buddhism and Confucianism.

Opaopajr, do you love Asian cuisine, too? I just love Indian food, Chinese food, and Thai food as well. So yummy! *Laughing*

Sometimes, before game sessions, I get the group to go to an Indian restaurant or a Chinese restaurant for lunch. It helps to get their minds in the right frame for the game!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on January 20, 2022, 10:05:25 AM

Quote from: Opaopajr on January 20, 2022, 09:33:08 AM

Quote from: Persimmon on January 20, 2022, 08:31:10 AM

Quote from: SHARK on January 20, 2022, 06:52:10 AM

Quote from: Persimmon on January 18, 2022, 09:40:07 PM
The old Kara Tur boxed set has plenty of inspirational material.  Not sure if it's even available nowadays due to issues of political correctness.  Several of the recent wuxia rpgs like "Wandering Heroes of Ogre Gate" & "Righteous Blood, Ruthless Blades," offer good setting info.  I think the latter would be pretty easy for most players to gronk if they've seen a few martial arts films.  And it's got plenty of NPCs you could probably convert over to your preferred system if you don't use that one.

My own campaign setting features lands derived from China (more Tang era, though), Japan, and Korea, though these are not necessarily the main areas of action.  I've done one campaign mostly there. 

Personally, I favor the Ming-Qing eras as those are my areas of academic specialty.  But there's enough info out there in English to do pretty much any era of Chinese history.  And many of the major novels & short stories have been translated so you can easily find plots and setting details.  Monkey & Water Margin are probably the best for that, or one of the martial arts novels by Jin Yong.  If you want stuff specifically on the Song, let me know and I can make recommendations.  Water Margin is set in the Song, but was written in the Ming.

Greetings!

Good Morning, Persimmon! Excellent! Yes, I actually have an original Kara Tur Boxed Set in my collection. I'll have to dig it out!

You specialized in the Ming/Qing Dynasties? Damn, that's awesome, my friend! Where did you go to school for that? Did your school have a great Asian Studies Program? That's so cool. I love it!

Myself, my main focus was Ancient & Medieval Europe, specializing in Ancient Greece and Ancient Rome. My university required us to select two secondary specialties--I picked American History, and Asian History, specializing in Ancient China & Ancient India. My university even established its own special Yadunandan Center for India Studies. I was going to take courses in Sanskrit, ahh, but geesus. You know how crazy the course work can be like at upper levels. There's only so much you can do in a set time frame.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Hey Shark,

I got my B.A. at The College of Wooster (OH) and my M.A. & Ph.D. at the University of Michigan.  I did my archival research at the Academia Sinica in Taiwan.  Since graduating I've done research in Korea, Japan, and mainland China.  I specialize in Ming-Qing military history.  I currently teach at Southern Miss and serve as the Book Review Editor of The Journal of Chinese Military History. 

If you're super interested you can find my books on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.com/Dragons-Head-Serpents-Tail-Commanders/dp/0806155817/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2XW49XIJBEQ6S&keywords=a+dragon%27s+head+and+a+serpent%27s+tail&qid=1642685120&sprefix=a+dragon%27s+%2Caps%2C159&sr=8-1
https://www.amazon.com/Military-Collapse-Dynasty-1618-44-Empires-ebook/dp/B00I06LPK0/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1Y6YJ21YZIFL1&keywords=the+military+collapse+of+china%27s+ming+dynasty&qid=1642685167&sprefix=the+military+collapse+of+china%27s+ming+dynasty%2Caps%2C122&sr=8-1
https://www.amazon.com/Trail-Yellow-Tiger-Dislocation-Transition/dp/0803249950/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1DDY3VACU2COZ&
keywords=on+the+trail+of+the+yellow+tiger&qid=1642685225&sprefix=on+the+trail+of+the+yellow+tiger%2Caps%2C106&sr=8-1

My current book is a military biography of General Zuo Zongtang (1812-1885), known to Americans as the namesake of General Zuo's chicken, but known in China for helping suppress the Taiping Rebellion, which was the largest civil war in world history, then crushing a series of Muslim revolts in the northwest and Central Asia which resulted in the creation of Xinjiang province, currently a hotbed of Uighur unrest.

As I said, your proposed campaign sounds great & I look forward to hearing about it!

Interesting! My minor History focus was on East Asia as well. But as much as I did for China it was predominantly on the rest of East Asia, especially Humanities: culture, arts, cuisine, philosophy, religion, and exchange. The dialogue and archaeology from the neighbors around China has delightful... discrepancies to popular narratives. But I still love all of the friction, tracing ideas as they travel!

Due to your interest in war, if you ever get a chance I recommend the War Museum in Seoul, Korea. It is excellent. When talking to Museum Studies majors they would appreciate their application of modern practice. You might love it!

Greetings!

Opaopajr! You studied East Asia, too? Like Tibet, Vietnam, Thailand?

I have of course done some reading and study of ancient Vietnam and Thailand, and damn, there's more good things and drama going on there, too. Wars, armies, kings, dynasties, religions, great cities, temples built, lots of drama, too. They also liked using lots of war Elephants!!! As I recall, for many centuries, Thailand blended Hinduism with Buddhism and Confucianism.

Opaopajr, do you love Asian cuisine, too? I just love Indian food, Chinese food, and Thai food as well. So yummy! *Laughing*

Sometimes, before game sessions, I get the group to go to an Indian restaurant or a Chinese restaurant for lunch. It helps to get their minds in the right frame for the game!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Then you're probably familiar with this move, although it's set in the 1590s and therefore not "medieval":

Quote from: Persimmon on January 20, 2022, 08:31:10 AM

Quote from: SHARK on January 20, 2022, 06:52:10 AM

Quote from: Persimmon on January 18, 2022, 09:40:07 PM
The old Kara Tur boxed set has plenty of inspirational material.  Not sure if it's even available nowadays due to issues of political correctness.  Several of the recent wuxia rpgs like "Wandering Heroes of Ogre Gate" & "Righteous Blood, Ruthless Blades," offer good setting info.  I think the latter would be pretty easy for most players to gronk if they've seen a few martial arts films.  And it's got plenty of NPCs you could probably convert over to your preferred system if you don't use that one.

My own campaign setting features lands derived from China (more Tang era, though), Japan, and Korea, though these are not necessarily the main areas of action.  I've done one campaign mostly there. 

Personally, I favor the Ming-Qing eras as those are my areas of academic specialty.  But there's enough info out there in English to do pretty much any era of Chinese history.  And many of the major novels & short stories have been translated so you can easily find plots and setting details.  Monkey & Water Margin are probably the best for that, or one of the martial arts novels by Jin Yong.  If you want stuff specifically on the Song, let me know and I can make recommendations.  Water Margin is set in the Song, but was written in the Ming.

Greetings!

Good Morning, Persimmon! Excellent! Yes, I actually have an original Kara Tur Boxed Set in my collection. I'll have to dig it out!

You specialized in the Ming/Qing Dynasties? Damn, that's awesome, my friend! Where did you go to school for that? Did your school have a great Asian Studies Program? That's so cool. I love it!

Myself, my main focus was Ancient & Medieval Europe, specializing in Ancient Greece and Ancient Rome. My university required us to select two secondary specialties--I picked American History, and Asian History, specializing in Ancient China & Ancient India. My university even established its own special Yadunandan Center for India Studies. I was going to take courses in Sanskrit, ahh, but geesus. You know how crazy the course work can be like at upper levels. There's only so much you can do in a set time frame.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Hey Shark,

I got my B.A. at The College of Wooster (OH) and my M.A. & Ph.D. at the University of Michigan.  I did my archival research at the Academia Sinica in Taiwan.  Since graduating I've done research in Korea, Japan, and mainland China.  I specialize in Ming-Qing military history.  I currently teach at Southern Miss and serve as the Book Review Editor of The Journal of Chinese Military History. 

I just want to say as a former history student (I just have a BA----and not in Chinese history), military history is something I have always found challenging to read. It is definitely an area I would say I am weakest in history wise. And I mean proper military history, not just a survey of a war or something. Every once in a while I accidentally pick up a military history when I am delving into a subject and read it (or read a military history because there isn't anything else I can find on that topic) and I have so much trouble understanding the language because it seems rather specialized (and I have no military background and no real familiarity with the military so a lot of it goes over my head). I almost wish there was a guidebook to reading military history (sort of how they have philosophical dictionaries for philosophy students). For a while I was reading everything I could about the Khmer rouge and Cambodia, and the book that stumped me most, but one that I recall being important for getting the information I needed, was a military history book (wish I could remember the title right now).

Quote from: SHARK on January 20, 2022, 07:02:38 AM
Hey S'mon! How are you my friend? Have you ever met Professor Michael Wood? He's a pretty prominent historian that teaches just up the road from you, at the University of Manchester!

Heh, by British standards Manchester is very much not 'just up the road' from London. If I was still in Sheffield you might have a case.  ;D
I had a good PG Law induction/orientation today, but am stressed & unhappy about excessive workload and an unsympathetic manager.  :'( :D

Hello!
Are you familiar with Paul Mason's "Outlaws of the Water Margin" RPG? It is set in the Song period, or to be precise, against the background of the "Water Margin" novel . Neat, clean 2d6-based system, a (to my semi quarter barely-informed eyes) deep understanding of the time period, the mythology and the culture, and some short but juicy background information presented in an RPG-friendly way.

It used to be available free on the Internet, but Paul's website seems to have disappeared. It can still be reached through archive.org, though:
https://web.archive.org/web/20051216223040/http://www.tcp-ip.or.jp/~panurge/outdown.htm

I also have a more current and more expansive version as PDF files stored somewhere, but I'd a.) have to look for them and b.) have to check it's okay to distribute. Drop me a PM if you're interested.

So, to share my related experience, I recently-ish finished a campaign set in a world where definitely-not-just-China-renamed was the dominant human culture. Most of the campaign had heavy Asian influences in the monster selection and naming. This included Chinese, Japanese, Indian, Vietnamese, etc. references. One of the big things I realized is that, for most western players, they cannot for the life of them keep up with anything other than the most basic of Asian names. Pretty mush the only significant cultural touchstones for Asianess were Avatar and pop culture samurai depictions. Basically, delving into the nuances of Asian mythology and culture were appreciated to some extent, but bogged the game down as I had to explain the context.

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on January 20, 2022, 11:57:43 AM

Quote from: Persimmon on January 20, 2022, 08:31:10 AM

Quote from: SHARK on January 20, 2022, 06:52:10 AM

Quote from: Persimmon on January 18, 2022, 09:40:07 PM
The old Kara Tur boxed set has plenty of inspirational material.  Not sure if it's even available nowadays due to issues of political correctness.  Several of the recent wuxia rpgs like "Wandering Heroes of Ogre Gate" & "Righteous Blood, Ruthless Blades," offer good setting info.  I think the latter would be pretty easy for most players to gronk if they've seen a few martial arts films.  And it's got plenty of NPCs you could probably convert over to your preferred system if you don't use that one.

My own campaign setting features lands derived from China (more Tang era, though), Japan, and Korea, though these are not necessarily the main areas of action.  I've done one campaign mostly there. 

Personally, I favor the Ming-Qing eras as those are my areas of academic specialty.  But there's enough info out there in English to do pretty much any era of Chinese history.  And many of the major novels & short stories have been translated so you can easily find plots and setting details.  Monkey & Water Margin are probably the best for that, or one of the martial arts novels by Jin Yong.  If you want stuff specifically on the Song, let me know and I can make recommendations.  Water Margin is set in the Song, but was written in the Ming.

Greetings!

Good Morning, Persimmon! Excellent! Yes, I actually have an original Kara Tur Boxed Set in my collection. I'll have to dig it out!

You specialized in the Ming/Qing Dynasties? Damn, that's awesome, my friend! Where did you go to school for that? Did your school have a great Asian Studies Program? That's so cool. I love it!

Myself, my main focus was Ancient & Medieval Europe, specializing in Ancient Greece and Ancient Rome. My university required us to select two secondary specialties--I picked American History, and Asian History, specializing in Ancient China & Ancient India. My university even established its own special Yadunandan Center for India Studies. I was going to take courses in Sanskrit, ahh, but geesus. You know how crazy the course work can be like at upper levels. There's only so much you can do in a set time frame.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Hey Shark,

I got my B.A. at The College of Wooster (OH) and my M.A. & Ph.D. at the University of Michigan.  I did my archival research at the Academia Sinica in Taiwan.  Since graduating I've done research in Korea, Japan, and mainland China.  I specialize in Ming-Qing military history.  I currently teach at Southern Miss and serve as the Book Review Editor of The Journal of Chinese Military History. 

I just want to say as a former history student (I just have a BA----and not in Chinese history), military history is something I have always found challenging to read. It is definitely an area I would say I am weakest in history wise. And I mean proper military history, not just a survey of a war or something. Every once in a while I accidentally pick up a military history when I am delving into a subject and read it (or read a military history because there isn't anything else I can find on that topic) and I have so much trouble understanding the language because it seems rather specialized (and I have no military background and no real familiarity with the military so a lot of it goes over my head). I almost wish there was a guidebook to reading military history (sort of how they have philosophical dictionaries for philosophy students). For a while I was reading everything I could about the Khmer rouge and Cambodia, and the book that stumped me most, but one that I recall being important for getting the information I needed, was a military history book (wish I could remember the title right now).

Greetings!

Yeah, BedrockBrendan, getting into or accessing *Military History* can be intimidating. The field has its own lexicon and vernacular, and numerous concepts, ideas, and philosophies that are frequently referenced in discussion of whatever is at hand. Jump in, and keep plugging away!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: S'mon on January 20, 2022, 01:10:54 PM

Quote from: SHARK on January 20, 2022, 07:02:38 AM
Hey S'mon! How are you my friend? Have you ever met Professor Michael Wood? He's a pretty prominent historian that teaches just up the road from you, at the University of Manchester!

Heh, by British standards Manchester is very much not 'just up the road' from London. If I was still in Sheffield you might have a case.  ;D
I had a good PG Law induction/orientation today, but am stressed & unhappy about excessive workload and an unsympathetic manager.  :'( :D

Greetings!

*Laughing* Well, you have lived in America. You know how we can often be with measurements and distance. "Just up the road from London" *Roaring* Yeah, you must have been laughing at that, my friend! Forgive my ignorance. :)

I sympathize with your work stress. S'mon! Go to the pub, order up a good beer, and light up a cigar, my friend! I guarantee doing so will make the day better! I hope you are doing well, S'mon.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Wulfhelm on January 20, 2022, 02:54:14 PM
Hello!
Are you familiar with Paul Mason's "Outlaws of the Water Margin" RPG? It is set in the Song period, or to be precise, against the background of the "Water Margin" novel . Neat, clean 2d6-based system, a (to my semi quarter barely-informed eyes) deep understanding of the time period, the mythology and the culture, and some short but juicy background information presented in an RPG-friendly way.

It used to be available free on the Internet, but Paul's website seems to have disappeared. It can still be reached through archive.org, though:
https://web.archive.org/web/20051216223040/http://www.tcp-ip.or.jp/~panurge/outdown.htm

I also have a more current and more expansive version as PDF files stored somewhere, but I'd a.) have to look for them and b.) have to check it's okay to distribute. Drop me a PM if you're interested.

Greetings!

That sounds interesting, Wulfhelm! Did you ever play that game?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on January 20, 2022, 05:07:13 PM

Quote from: Wulfhelm on January 20, 2022, 02:54:14 PM
Hello!
Are you familiar with Paul Mason's "Outlaws of the Water Margin" RPG? It is set in the Song period, or to be precise, against the background of the "Water Margin" novel . Neat, clean 2d6-based system, a (to my semi quarter barely-informed eyes) deep understanding of the time period, the mythology and the culture, and some short but juicy background information presented in an RPG-friendly way.

It used to be available free on the Internet, but Paul's website seems to have disappeared. It can still be reached through archive.org, though:
https://web.archive.org/web/20051216223040/http://www.tcp-ip.or.jp/~panurge/outdown.htm

I also have a more current and more expansive version as PDF files stored somewhere, but I'd a.) have to look for them and b.) have to check it's okay to distribute. Drop me a PM if you're interested.

Greetings!

That sounds interesting, Wulfhelm! Did you ever play that game?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

If you have time, the actual Water Margins novel is a pretty interesting story. It's a bit long and the writing style is decidedly different from what we see nowadays, but it paints a pretty vivid picture of the era. Incidentally, though you may already be aware of it, Water margins is one of the great 4 pieces of literature in the Chinese literary canon. The other three are Journey to the West, Romance of the Three Kingdoms, and A Dream of Red Mansions. All of them are great resources, though I personally did not like Red Mansions all that much.

Quote from: Hzilong on January 20, 2022, 04:29:50 PM
So, to share my related experience, I recently-ish finished a campaign set in a world where definitely-not-just-China-renamed was the dominant human culture. Most of the campaign had heavy Asian influences in the monster selection and naming. This included Chinese, Japanese, Indian, Vietnamese, etc. references. One of the big things I realized is that, for most western players, they cannot for the life of them keep up with anything other than the most basic of Asian names. Pretty mush the only significant cultural touchstones for Asianess were Avatar and pop culture samurai depictions. Basically, delving into the nuances of Asian mythology and culture were appreciated to some extent, but bogged the game down as I had to explain the context.

Greetings!

Very interesting, Hzilong! How many players were in your group? What kind of characters did they play? How long did this awesome Asian-themed campaign endure?

It sounds like you did an excellent job! Alas, much of a DM's labour often goes unknown, and sadly, entirely unappreciated by the players.

As you mentioned, though, our culture does absolutely nothing to familiarize our society with Asian culture in any meaningful way. I've said for years that we get "Ninjas, Samurai, and Geishas". It can be such a struggle where you essentially have to educate the players to get them up to speed. So many nuances and elements of choices--why person A does X, but not Y, is because of *culture* Players have zero understanding of the culture, so they have zero understanding of appropriate or inappropriate choices, or *why*--and further understand the pros and cons of such different choices. Even their choices that they might make are like throwing darts while blindfolded. It's probably why all of these wonderful, foreign, "Diverse" campaigns have been absolute commercial failures through the years. No, the market as a whole does not want anything radically different. They want North-Western Medieval Europe, heaped on with vanilla pudding, and nuked, again, and again. Sometimes drizzled with chocolate sauce. ;D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Hzilong on January 20, 2022, 04:29:50 PM
So, to share my related experience, I recently-ish finished a campaign set in a world where definitely-not-just-China-renamed was the dominant human culture. Most of the campaign had heavy Asian influences in the monster selection and naming. This included Chinese, Japanese, Indian, Vietnamese, etc. references. One of the big things I realized is that, for most western players, they cannot for the life of them keep up with anything other than the most basic of Asian names. Pretty mush the only significant cultural touchstones for Asianess were Avatar and pop culture samurai depictions. Basically, delving into the nuances of Asian mythology and culture were appreciated to some extent, but bogged the game down as I had to explain the context.

That sounds really cool (the part about the heavily asian influence, not the having to explain).

Quote from: SHARK on January 20, 2022, 05:26:46 PM
Greetings!

Very interesting, Hzilong! How many players were in your group? What kind of characters did they play? How long did this awesome Asian-themed campaign endure?

It sounds like you did an excellent job! Alas, much of a DM's labour often goes unknown, and sadly, entirely unappreciated by the players.

As you mentioned, though, our culture does absolutely nothing to familiarize our society with Asian culture in any meaningful way. I've said for years that we get "Ninjas, Samurai, and Geishas". It can be such a struggle where you essentially have to educate the players to get them up to speed. So many nuances and elements of choices--why person A does X, but not Y, is because of *culture* Players have zero understanding of the culture, so they have zero understanding of appropriate or inappropriate choices, or *why*--and further understand the pros and cons of such different choices. Even their choices that they might make are like throwing darts while blindfolded. It's probably why all of these wonderful, foreign, "Diverse" campaigns have been absolute commercial failures through the years. No, the market as a whole does not want anything radically different. They want North-Western Medieval Europe, heaped on with vanilla pudding, and nuked, again, and again. Sometimes drizzled with chocolate sauce. ;D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

So I'm curious SHARK, what might be a solution, if there needs to be one? Cause this is something I've pondered/thought on. The sjdubs want to censor the 1e Oriental Adventures because it wasn't inclusive of all of Asia (is my understanding).

But honestly, unless you're from the culture or have delved deeply into the history you won't know those nuanced things.

We all have our finite time and what we want to spend it on. When I want to 'play dnd' what I know is that European/Western world view.

Idk, I'm rambling.

But the issue is that SJW "bananas" like Danny Kwan don't know jackshit about actual Asian history and culture.  Plus, they completely ignore the fact that ALL of D&D is simplified cultural appropriation and use of stereotypes.  Not to mention the fact that real Asians aren't offended by this, or at least none that I know.  And I know lots of Asians....

Quote from: Persimmon on January 20, 2022, 06:13:31 PM
But the issue is that SJW "bananas" like Danny Kwan don't know jackshit about actual Asian history and culture.  Plus, they completely ignore the fact that ALL of D&D is simplified cultural appropriation and use of stereotypes.  Not to mention the fact that real Asians aren't offended by this, or at least none that I know.  And I know lots of Asians....

Yes, you said it better but that's how my thoughts have gone. Thank you.

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on January 20, 2022, 05:41:07 PM

Quote from: SHARK on January 20, 2022, 05:26:46 PM
Greetings!

Very interesting, Hzilong! How many players were in your group? What kind of characters did they play? How long did this awesome Asian-themed campaign endure?

It sounds like you did an excellent job! Alas, much of a DM's labour often goes unknown, and sadly, entirely unappreciated by the players.

As you mentioned, though, our culture does absolutely nothing to familiarize our society with Asian culture in any meaningful way. I've said for years that we get "Ninjas, Samurai, and Geishas". It can be such a struggle where you essentially have to educate the players to get them up to speed. So many nuances and elements of choices--why person A does X, but not Y, is because of *culture* Players have zero understanding of the culture, so they have zero understanding of appropriate or inappropriate choices, or *why*--and further understand the pros and cons of such different choices. Even their choices that they might make are like throwing darts while blindfolded. It's probably why all of these wonderful, foreign, "Diverse" campaigns have been absolute commercial failures through the years. No, the market as a whole does not want anything radically different. They want North-Western Medieval Europe, heaped on with vanilla pudding, and nuked, again, and again. Sometimes drizzled with chocolate sauce. ;D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

So I'm curious SHARK, what might be a solution, if there needs to be one? Cause this is something I've pondered/thought on. The sjdubs want to censor the 1e Oriental Adventures because it wasn't inclusive of all of Asia (is my understanding).

But honestly, unless you're from the culture or have delved deeply into the history you won't know those nuanced things.

We all have our finite time and what we want to spend it on. When I want to 'play dnd' what I know is that European/Western world view.

Idk, I'm rambling.

Greetings!

Hello, there, my friend! Good question!

Well, I would say, as beginning principles, for both the players and the DM, is to be open-minded, patient, curious, and willing to learn. And also flexible.

Next, ask yourself, (And each other) is this campaign in Quasi-Asia--(Or wherever)--is it to be a beer and pretzels game? If it is, then the culture, history, lore, none of that really matters. Just roll dice and stomp everything, just like in the Forgotten Realms or something.

If the campaign is not a "Beer and Pretzels Game"--but something more historical, even if fantasy, presumably everyone is on board to experience something different. Even as the DM, I, too, want to always learn new things, and experience different cultures, eras, and so on. So, that requires some extra effort, and slowing the pace of the game down--at least sometimes--in order to soak in the new knowledge, and highlight the new experiences.

Encourage individual players to read some of the books on the culture and history. (People in this hobby used to pride themselves on being well-read!--and always eager to read new things!)

Keep "Lore Segments" brief, but fairly frequent and continuous. Part of this is to help immerse the players in a new culture.

The DM needs to account for a generous table or random mechanic in helping the players make choices as play develops. Alternatively, or in addition, have numerous NPC friends, family members, mentors, available, to frequently interact with the player characters, advise them, and have discussions in-character on culture, values, morality, the family's goals, why this, why that, politics, whatever.

I have an extensive soundtrack collection, as well as playing culture-themed music as appropriate during every session.

I often encourage meals at every game session which feature Greek, Italian, Chinese, Indian, Persian, Thai, or Turkish cuisine. Good, yummy, culture food does wonders for setting the mood!

I have books--the internet can also be used--for floor plans, vivid pictures, of buildings, natural locations, lakes, mountains, jungles, forests, beaches, fortresses, clothing styles, animals, and of course, PEOPLE. Also pictures of food, jewelry, artwork, cosmetics, formal and casually dressed people. Have these resources ready and available before the session starts, and give the players about 15 minutes to look over them, and absorb them, immerse themselves in the pictures, in the environments shown.

Create and pass out a fairly concise Player Campaign Guide, with key terms, glossary, definitions, and cultural notes. The players are not expected to read it all at once--but gradually, over time, and to frequently consult it and reference it as play develops.

As desired or able, every fourth or fifth week, add a culture-appropriate film to the night's activities. Or have the plyers watch on their own time at home, but it is often best done as a group, together, so that they can also ask the DM questions and engage in discussion.

As the DM, make cultural knowledge important, and be sure to reward players that are both curious, and put in effort to learn more. Most players usually catch on, and get into it. It can also help to have some highlighted skills available, feats, and such, for players to mechanically get a handle on different aspects of the culture.

I think it is important to make learning *FUN* and highlight several senses on an ongoing basis. (Incense, music, food, books, discussion) each session. After about 6 to 8 weeks, things tend to start flowing together well. Of course, this is all predicated on the participants being reasonably curious, open-minded, fun, and at least somewhat intellectual. I hate to say it, but if these traits are not found in the current crop of players, then one should continue searching to recruit new players that do have these traits.

I think all of these efforts can make the cultural campaign fun, interesting, and enlightening, each and every game session, and provide a top-shelf, rewarding experience for everyone involved.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on January 20, 2022, 05:41:07 PM

Quote from: SHARK on January 20, 2022, 05:26:46 PM

Quote from: Hzilong on January 20, 2022, 04:29:50 PM
So, to share my related experience, I recently-ish finished a campaign set in a world where definitely-not-just-China-renamed was the dominant human culture. Most of the campaign had heavy Asian influences in the monster selection and naming. This included Chinese, Japanese, Indian, Vietnamese, etc. references. One of the big things I realized is that, for most western players, they cannot for the life of them keep up with anything other than the most basic of Asian names. Pretty mush the only significant cultural touchstones for Asianess were Avatar and pop culture samurai depictions. Basically, delving into the nuances of Asian mythology and culture were appreciated to some extent, but bogged the game down as I had to explain the context.

As you mentioned, though, our culture does absolutely nothing to familiarize our society with Asian culture in any meaningful way. I've said for years that we get "Ninjas, Samurai, and Geishas". It can be such a struggle where you essentially have to educate the players to get them up to speed. So many nuances and elements of choices--why person A does X, but not Y, is because of *culture* Players have zero understanding of the culture, so they have zero understanding of appropriate or inappropriate choices, or *why*--and further understand the pros and cons of such different choices.

So I'm curious SHARK, what might be a solution, if there needs to be one? Cause this is something I've pondered/thought on. The sjdubs want to censor the 1e Oriental Adventures because it wasn't inclusive of all of Asia (is my understanding).

But honestly, unless you're from the culture or have delved deeply into the history you won't know those nuanced things.

We all have our finite time and what we want to spend it on. When I want to 'play dnd' what I know is that European/Western world view.

There's no "solution" in the sense of an absolute fix, but I find I'm more comfortable if I do a few things:

(1) Draw on some well-known stereotypes, but also
(2) Dispel some common false assumptions, while
(3) Mix in atypical genre tropes

So, for example, I ran a FATE campaign set in 1860s Korea in the universe of Naomi Novik's "Temeraire" series -- basically 19th century with domesticated dragons. I did this as over-the-top pulp fiction -- complete with strong-jawed heroes, fiendish traps, and rooftop fights. It was clearly not historically accurate given dragons and pulp, but it did also pull in a lot of historical detail that isn't commonly known -- like the unique culture of Jeju Island (where the PCs were based), peasant rebellions, Catholics, and Japanese pirates.

To speak more to China -- I've been running a yearly Amber Diceless game for over a decade that re-imagines the fantasy universe of Amber along Chinese lines. It uses all the standard Amber mechanics and a lot of the cosmology (with Pattern and Chaos and such), but it does draw on some less common sources. As a very high-power game, I've recommended that the players particularly watch "Red Cliff" - which is a popular film adaptation of The Romance of the Three Kingdoms.

I find that having a clear break from history and an alternate genre helps make things fun, while still allowing for pulling in a lot of less well-known historical detail.

Quote from: SHARK on January 20, 2022, 06:49:31 PM
Greetings!

Hello, there, my friend! Good question!

Well, I would say, as beginning principles, for both the players and the DM, is to be open-minded, patient, curious, and willing to learn. And also flexible.

Next, ask yourself, (And each other) is this campaign in Quasi-Asia--(Or wherever)--is it to be a beer and pretzels game? If it is, then the culture, history, lore, none of that really matters. Just roll dice and stomp everything, just like in the Forgotten Realms or something.

If the campaign is not a "Beer and Pretzels Game"--but something more historical, even if fantasy, presumably everyone is on board to experience something different. Even as the DM, I, too, want to always learn new things, and experience different cultures, eras, and so on. So, that requires some extra effort, and slowing the pace of the game down--at least sometimes--in order to soak in the new knowledge, and highlight the new experiences.

Encourage individual players to read some of the books on the culture and history. (People in this hobby used to pride themselves on being well-read!--and always eager to read new things!)

Keep "Lore Segments" brief, but fairly frequent and continuous. Part of this is to help immerse the players in a new culture.

The DM needs to account for a generous table or random mechanic in helping the players make choices as play develops. Alternatively, or in addition, have numerous NPC friends, family members, mentors, available, to frequently interact with the player characters, advise them, and have discussions in-character on culture, values, morality, the family's goals, why this, why that, politics, whatever.

I have an extensive soundtrack collection, as well as playing culture-themed music as appropriate during every session.

I often encourage meals at every game session which feature Greek, Italian, Chinese, Indian, Persian, Thai, or Turkish cuisine. Good, yummy, culture food does wonders for setting the mood!

I have books--the internet can also be used--for floor plans, vivid pictures, of buildings, natural locations, lakes, mountains, jungles, forests, beaches, fortresses, clothing styles, animals, and of course, PEOPLE. Also pictures of food, jewelry, artwork, cosmetics, formal and casually dressed people. Have these resources ready and available before the session starts, and give the players about 15 minutes to look over them, and absorb them, immerse themselves in the pictures, in the environments shown.

Create and pass out a fairly concise Player Campaign Guide, with key terms, glossary, definitions, and cultural notes. The players are not expected to read it all at once--but gradually, over time, and to frequently consult it and reference it as play develops.

As desired or able, every fourth or fifth week, add a culture-appropriate film to the night's activities. Or have the plyers watch on their own time at home, but it is often best done as a group, together, so that they can also ask the DM questions and engage in discussion.

As the DM, make cultural knowledge important, and be sure to reward players that are both curious, and put in effort to learn more. Most players usually catch on, and get into it. It can also help to have some highlighted skills available, feats, and such, for players to mechanically get a handle on different aspects of the culture.

I think it is important to make learning *FUN* and highlight several senses on an ongoing basis. (Incense, music, food, books, discussion) each session. After about 6 to 8 weeks, things tend to start flowing together well. Of course, this is all predicated on the participants being reasonably curious, open-minded, fun, and at least somewhat intellectual. I hate to say it, but if these traits are not found in the current crop of players, then one should continue searching to recruit new players that do have these traits.

I think all of these efforts can make the cultural campaign fun, interesting, and enlightening, each and every game session, and provide a top-shelf, rewarding experience for everyone involved.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Thanks for the reply, SHARK. I appreciate you taking the time. Some good stuff to think about.

Quote from: jhkim on January 20, 2022, 07:03:47 PM
There's no "solution" in the sense of an absolute fix, but I find I'm more comfortable if I do a few things:

(1) Draw on some well-known stereotypes, but also
(2) Dispel some common false assumptions, while
(3) Mix in atypical genre tropes

So, for example, I ran a FATE campaign set in 1860s Korea in the universe of Naomi Novik's "Temeraire" series -- basically 19th century with domesticated dragons. I did this as over-the-top pulp fiction -- complete with strong-jawed heroes, fiendish traps, and rooftop fights. It was clearly not historically accurate given dragons and pulp, but it did also pull in a lot of historical detail that isn't commonly known -- like the unique culture of Jeju Island (where the PCs were based), peasant rebellions, Catholics, and Japanese pirates.

To speak more to China -- I've been running a yearly Amber Diceless game for over a decade that re-imagines the fantasy universe of Amber along Chinese lines. It uses all the standard Amber mechanics and a lot of the cosmology (with Pattern and Chaos and such), but it does draw on some less common sources. As a very high-power game, I've recommended that the players particularly watch "Red Cliff" - which is a popular film adaptation of The Romance of the Three Kingdoms.

I find that having a clear break from history and an alternate genre helps make things fun, while still allowing for pulling in a lot of less well-known historical detail.

Hi jhkim. I appreciate the response.

This is good advice I think. And points out that stereotypes are okay in some instances. Plus I'm don't care what the sjdubs think. I mean when I have a 'heavily influenced' central America, or 'heavily influenced' middle east, I don't care if I don't 'treat' the culture historically accurate enough for some sjdub. It boggles my mind that they seem incapable of knowing that I'm in a fantasy world.

As I really don't follow the critical role game anymore I still know there were tons of people who were pre-pissed off that the new campaign was going was being set in a "middle-east" influenced region. And these sjdubs just knew the players weren't going to do it justice. Despite it being the whole creation of Matt Mercer.

There's probably not much to say about my game. Most of what I did was reskinning names and realigning the cosmology to reflect the idea of the Celestial Court that you find In Taoist teachings. I think the most obviously "Asian flavored" adventure we did was a trip to the underworld and seeing the Taoist view of the afterlife and nearly getting judged by King Yama, the judge of the dead.

Also, lots of Avatar and mystical/xiaolin monk references since we had a four elements water genasi monk.

Shark, you might enjoy this novel as a source for your campaign:

https://www.amazon.com/Bridge-Birds-Ancient-Chronicles-Master/dp/0345321383

I greatly enjoyed it.

Quote from: World_Warrior on January 19, 2022, 09:55:36 PM

Quote from: SHARK on January 19, 2022, 09:43:14 PM

Quote from: World_Warrior on January 18, 2022, 08:40:02 PM
I would like to hear more. What system would you use? One problem I always have with running a Chinese-inspired game is martial arts. I was never satisfied with how AD&D or D&D 3 did their martial arts systems.

Greetings!

Cheers, World Warrior! System-wise, I use D&D 5E.

As for Martial Arts, with the way that Hit Points, AC, and damage work in D&D, it is fairly simple to create a few Martial Arts Feats (Traditions) which increase unarmed combat damage, initiative, an individual's AC, and be done with it. Weapons are, at the end of the day, of primary importance.

I have developed three large empires and kingdoms in my China-like area, with a dozen neighboring kingdoms or territories. There are 6 major religions, and about 25 prominent human languages. Besides the larger human kingdoms, there are also many human Pagan tribes that live throughout the rugged wilderness. Along the coasts, there are several large groups of islands, featuring powerful pirate states. There are 6 distinctive Monastic Traditions, and many philosophies.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

That sounds awesome. The one thing that 5E did right was giving more with the Feats, instead of chaining long sequences of Feats together to get what you wanted. I could easily see entire kung fu stances and even some secret techniques being done as Feats.

I have thought about how Pundit does his magic system in Lion and Dragon, and have considered eventually doing a martial arts system that takes the framework of the OA system, but instead of the basic moves, replacing with more Wuxia-style techniques. Unlike a Proficiency system (OA), Feats (3E), or Vancian-type Maneuver system (Dragon Fist), I'd just have characters have the ability to train to learn new techniques at each level (probably a DC check or something) but can also learn extra techniques by deciphering ancient manuals or learning from crazed kung fu hermits, etc. Less balance and more engagement from players.

But that's how I would do it.

The Feat system for 5E would absolutely work for that system.

One thing to think about is stealing how Lore Sheets work from Weapons of the Gods. Lore Sheets are an underutilized system in rpgs.

Although this doesn't specifically have anything to do with China: But has anyone ever made a setting based on Buddhist cosmology? It has intrigued me for decades, due to the concept of many parallel worlds and a plethora of heavens and hells. It seems to be an ideal setting for fantasy rpgs. I was thinking of starting the players off on the southern continent of Jambudivpa, which would be loosely based on ancient India/SE Asia.

Quote from: Rhymer88 on January 21, 2022, 04:07:37 AM
Although this doesn't specifically have anything to do with China: But has anyone ever made a setting based on Buddhist cosmology? It has intrigued me for decades, due to the concept of many parallel worlds and a plethora of heavens and hells. It seems to be an ideal setting for fantasy rpgs. I was thinking of starting the players off on the southern continent of Jambudivpa, which would be loosely based on ancient India/SE Asia.

Funny enough, I think a few tweaks to the Planescape setting could emulate this pretty easily (depending on how well researched you already are). I have thought about trying it, but haven't dedicated much effort to it as it's a bit of a niche concept and might need a higher than average player buy in. As I'm writing this I'm reminded of an older anime that sort of played on this idea. I think it was called Magical Shopping Arcade Abenobashi.

Quote from: SHARK on January 20, 2022, 05:07:13 PM

Quote from: Wulfhelm on January 20, 2022, 02:54:14 PM
Hello!
Are you familiar with Paul Mason's "Outlaws of the Water Margin" RPG? It is set in the Song period, or to be precise, against the background of the "Water Margin" novel . Neat, clean 2d6-based system, a (to my semi quarter barely-informed eyes) deep understanding of the time period, the mythology and the culture, and some short but juicy background information presented in an RPG-friendly way.

It used to be available free on the Internet, but Paul's website seems to have disappeared. It can still be reached through archive.org, though:
https://web.archive.org/web/20051216223040/http://www.tcp-ip.or.jp/~panurge/outdown.htm

I also have a more current and more expansive version as PDF files stored somewhere, but I'd a.) have to look for them and b.) have to check it's okay to distribute. Drop me a PM if you're interested.

Greetings!

That sounds interesting, Wulfhelm! Did you ever play that game?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Unfortunately, no. I drew some inspiration from it for my own homebrews, but at that time my group of players was quite reluctant to stray from standard fantasy fare.

What surprised me is that Paul, after some >20 years, seems to be back at working on the game ("Sleepyscholar" being him obviously):
https://www.rpgpub.com/threads/outlaws-of-the-water-margin.4318/page-10

You might want to get in touch with him directly on that site if you're interested.

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on January 20, 2022, 07:15:53 PM
This is good advice I think. And points out that stereotypes are okay in some instances. Plus I'm don't care what the sjdubs think. I mean when I have a 'heavily influenced' central America, or 'heavily influenced' middle east, I don't care if I don't 'treat' the culture historically accurate enough for some sjdub. It boggles my mind that they seem incapable of knowing that I'm in a fantasy world.

I figure I'll always be potentially pissing someone off. For example, a lot of posters here were pissed off by the "Coyote & Crow" game. I run my games to have fun for myself and my friends. not to avoid offending others.

Also, I think always be dealing in some stereotypes regardless of what I do. That's inherent in how these games work. But I can pay attention to what stereotypes I'm using. For a Chinese game, I'll draw more from Chinese films and books for their stereotypes, and I'll also pull in general American stereotypes that are wider than culture. Like in my 1860s Korea pulp game, I used a bunch of pulp stereotypes - like the strong-jawed hero or the gentle giant, but I didn't draw from pulp stereotypes of Asians like Fu Manchu.

For the Korea campaign, we watched the film "Blood Rain" as inspiration before the campaign started.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0462684/

It's got a lot of great pulp action and works pretty well - and fit with it's island setting and period.

Quote from: jhkim on January 21, 2022, 04:27:44 PM

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on January 20, 2022, 07:15:53 PM
This is good advice I think. And points out that stereotypes are okay in some instances. Plus I'm don't care what the sjdubs think. I mean when I have a 'heavily influenced' central America, or 'heavily influenced' middle east, I don't care if I don't 'treat' the culture historically accurate enough for some sjdub. It boggles my mind that they seem incapable of knowing that I'm in a fantasy world.

I figure I'll always be potentially pissing someone off. For example, a lot of posters here were pissed off by the "Coyote & Crow" game. I run my games to have fun for myself and my friends. not to avoid offending others.

Also, I think always be dealing in some stereotypes regardless of what I do. That's inherent in how these games work. But I can pay attention to what stereotypes I'm using. For a Chinese game, I'll draw more from Chinese films and books for their stereotypes, and I'll also pull in general American stereotypes that are wider than culture. Like in my 1860s Korea pulp game, I used a bunch of pulp stereotypes - like the strong-jawed hero or the gentle giant, but I didn't draw from pulp stereotypes of Asians like Fu Manchu.

For the Korea campaign, we watched the film "Blood Rain" as inspiration before the campaign started.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0462684/

It's got a lot of great pulp action and works pretty well - and fit with it's island setting and period.

Exactly.  When jhkim stereotypes, he makes sure to use the right stereotypes.  Your stereotypes will inevitably be insensitive or wrong.  You could try to pick the right stereotypes, but you can't.  Just resign yourself to being wrong...

Greetings!

Can you imagine having dinner with Su Sung? Su Sung, was originally from the city of Fu Jen, and lived during the Song Dynasty. Su Sung was a brilliant Polymath and an expert in numerous fields, from science and engineering, to nature, animals, and more.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quotebut I didn't draw from pulp stereotypes of Asians like Fu Manchu.

Why not really? He is basically Chinese Moriarty just in attire of Chinese bureaucrat rather than English gentleman.

Quote from: Wrath of God on February 07, 2022, 05:23:57 PM

Quotebut I didn't draw from pulp stereotypes of Asians like Fu Manchu.

Why not really? He is basically Chinese Moriarty just in attire of Chinese bureaucrat rather than English gentleman.

I would definitely use Fu Manchu in a Min Guo (1920s/30s) setting. He'd make a perfect villain, especially if he's allied with a variety of local warlords who provide added muscle.

I have also thought about the Song Dynasty sometimes, but never used it for anything. I even like the art from that period. It's generally more elegant than the "baroque" T'ang dynasty. If I remember correctly, they used gas fires in some areas, for heating and cooking and such, maybe some smelting processes.

The empire was under constant pressure from outside, which lead to an inflated army. Their borders might have had a bit of an insecure "frontier" feeling sometimes. There were some secret societies, which had a long history in China, often with some elements of mafia, rebellion, and religion all mixed together. China had a long history of extreme contrast between rich and poor which may have been one of the draws of these secret societies  (and sadly much later made the Communist part attractive).