I have a love/hate relationship with Shadowrun in all its aspects; this especially includes its lore. Its potential has always been great, but in practice its always felt frustrating (to me). This isn't a modern problem or a lore change issue. Even reading older lore stuff from 1e, I felt Shadowrun could never decide if it wanted to be tan trench coat or purple mohawk. There always seemed to be this streak of unrealized rebellion in the universe. Shadowrunner is a cool term, and the artwork (especially the older artwork) implies a level of care-free mayhem and anarchic chaos that the setting never really thought about how it would deliver:
'You're a badass who doesn't live by the rule of the megacorporations!...Except you pretty much work for them, they have plot protection powers, and your scum, they have all the best stuff and equipment, and the setting revolves around the actions of borderline godlike beings, and never Shadowrunner trash. They are also completely immune to any and all persecution but they need you as tentatively disposable assets for some reason'.
If Shadowrunners where called 'Scumrunner' or 'Muck-Men' or something else to imply low status and disposability, it would better imply the role that Shadowrunners have within the setting when not in a videogame or not going against writers favorites.
So I was thinking about how I would tweak Shadowrun to be more full 'purple mohawk' in subtle, and not so subtle ways.
Subtle:
1. The State of the world is pseudo-anarchic. Corporate feudalism isn't a state of betterment (even for the corpos), but of collapse. It does grant the especially power hungry people the ability to boss others around more, but so much resources are wasted in power play games, that as a whole even mega corporations are weaker then the "Pre-Fall" state of the world. The key core, is that with the collapse of a united social belief in some sort of unity, everybody falls back into tribal conflicts. Which takes me to the next point:
2. The Biggest rivals to corpos are (gimmicky) gangs. Large scale governments sort of exist, but in a massively fragmented and weakened state. Militarized gangs with a mixture of radicalized populace and disenfranchised ex-military/ militarized police have control of the streets (sort of like a more extreme version of mexicos gangs). A gang is unlikely to have the national or international reach of a corpo, but a gang is more likely to have stronger control over territory in its city or sprawl. Large shootouts between authorities is a common occurrence in the streets. Shipments of whatever goods are often highjacked and re-sold or re-purposed and then used by the gangers to extract concessions from the corpos. And vice versa.
3. The lack of a real culture of respect at corpos means that retention of upper tier talent is very weak. This is especially true for security forces that often have to do the corpos dirty work. As a result its more profitable to be an independent contractor, in the similar principle as a pirate during the age of sail. You can work for the corpos, the gangs, remnant power structures before the fall, individual people and agendas or just work for yourself and steal corpo crap and re-sell it on the black market. Loose organizations exist for some Shadowrunner groups for this reason due to the weakness of central law organisms.
4. The fall of centralized power means corporate power is less powerful and watchful outside of its own borders. What happens if somebody does a breach of contract and runs into another corpo. How do you punish them? Ask for them back? Tell the police? Organize an expensive retrieval squad? In place of observation nets at every street corner you have tangles of partly maintained surveillance equipment controlled by different people. With the fall of central trading everything is much more expensive as resources are mostly locked behind perpetual conflict.
a. This means you can generally perform most heists without a mask unless the corpo would absolutely use resources to try to get it back within a short period of time.
Not So subtle:
1. The FEV virus only directly killed like 10% of the population. But this indirectly massacred billions. 50+ish percent. Broken supply lines and starvation killed much more people.
2. Many metropolises are necropolises haunted by ghosts. With FEV as contagious and airborne, concentrated population centers that didn't evacuate on time just died in massive amounts. The depth of the agony creates mass hauntings. For this reason places like new York have not been possible to reclaim fully or even at all. For some reason the ghosts also somehow stabilize the areas, preventing it from simply instantly crumbling from disrepair. So trying to explore literal ghost cities for loot is a thing.
3. Magic has allowed human society to survive. Quickened spells and such allows for things like infinite energy, or increased crop yields. Its not just good for medicine or killing people.
4. Lots of areas have been reclaimed by magical effects or aggressive magical wildlife. If calling the exterminator requires they grab a rifle, staying in a place becomes more then its worth.
5. As a result, new denser mega-housing projects have been constructed in magically weaker zones.
Bare in mind if you like Shadowrun as it is, enjoy: this is more me thinking out loud.
I learned long ago to completely disconnect the art from the game. Because with annoying frequency the damn artists seem to not give a fuck and are just doing whatever. Or the art director couldnt direct their way out of a wet paper bag. Looking right at you White Wolf Gamma World!
Disconnect the art and Shadowrun is alot grimmer place. Even when people are sounding upbeat half the time its talking about something horrible happening. Or new ways to make something horrible happen. Good example is the Comet book that introduces the new changeling effect. Its upbeat one page and bleak the next, and somewhere in between after that and so on.
Then theres the novels which paint a different picture of the world as well.
Part of the problem is that the setting itself is not one homogeneous darkness. And that is a good thing really. It is perfectly possible to get out from under the shadows of the megacorps and have some fun. How long that fun will last is anyones guess.
So where the PCs are can have a big impact on the tone.
Quote from: Omega on May 19, 2022, 07:57:42 PMSo where the PCs are can have a big impact on the tone.
The PCs cannot have a large impact on Shadowrun because its demi-gods and Corporations are the writers actual pets. They are its Drizzt. So they don't want your annoying PC messing up what they have going. They will spend books detailing data that the PCs don't interact with, and doesn't really interact with them. "Well what do the Shadowrunners do in this?" is number 357 in priority.
The setting is by and large incongrous and doesn't stick together. My best Shadowrun experiences had been the videogame, and my best Cyberpunk experience was Huntdown. So im thinking out loud about its manic energy.
I like the idea of a Shadowrun setting true to its art.
This is a good thread with many interesting ideas.
I'd remove all the fantasy elements. The idea of orcs with trenchcoats is just too off the mark for my taste.
Like the rest of the vibe but I'd play it darker.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on May 19, 2022, 07:40:59 PM
'You're a badass who doesn't live by the rule of the megacorporations!...Except you pretty much work for them, they have plot protection powers, and your scum, they have all the best stuff and equipment, and the setting revolves around the actions of borderline godlike beings, and never Shadowrunner trash. They are also completely immune to any and all persecution but they need you as tentatively disposable assets for some reason'.
IDK, runners don't necessarily work for the corporations. They could be hired by all kinds of people with money who'd prefer runners do the job, cuz they don't want the corporations going after them if shit hits the fan. Then they'll probably sell whatever the PCs steal in the black market or to another corporation. And even when those people do work for other corporations they'd rather have runners be the ones stealing corporate secrets from the competition, cuz if someone has the power to go after a corporation it's other corporations. But getting runners involved gives them plausible deniability.
I haven't had the chance to run much Shadowrun, but if I were to run a game I wouldn't care about the metaplot and just do whatever I want working from the setting's basic premise. If that goes against something the writers had for one of the novels or adventures I'd never bother buying anyway, to bad.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on May 19, 2022, 09:36:46 PM
I'd remove all the fantasy elements.
Wouldn't that just be Cyberpunk at that point? The whole point of Shadowrun is to have an orc street shaman in a trenchcoat calling spirits in an alley while a dwarf decker hacks for access to whatever building they're breaking into and a cybered up human street samurai watches out, weapons ready in case someone's coming.
Quote from: VisionStorm on May 19, 2022, 11:56:20 PMI wouldn't care about the metaplot and just do whatever I want working from the setting's basic premise.
What I mean is even outside of the metaplot, having scoured the source materials for hooks, its overwhelmingly boring or focused on corpo/god activity. You don't necacarily have to work for the corporations, but you don't necacarily have to go mad encountering eldritch horrors in Call of Cathulu. You could file taxes instead.
What Im saying is that the setting is at war with its own central premise. And always has been. Its always wanted to be a crazy, rebellious frantic adventure, but in practice is a very downbeat if you actually use the setting materials (and even ignore the metaplot).
Its not like 'Well there are a few adventures/sourcebooks that prop up megacorpos and don't put any PC hooks'. Its almost
ALL of them. Because it takes itself stonefacedly serious. Its overwhelmingly interested in its own upper tier inner workings, and not interested at all in giving your PCs ways of influencing it. Just 'Glance' into it.
QuoteBut getting runners involved gives them plausible deniability.
Its overwhelmingly implausible. Corpos can get away with making a deathtrap that kills thousands of people, and suffer no longterm ramifications, with their names PLASTERED on the building. If they can get away with that, they should absolutely not care if a person attempting to rob 'Evil-Co' has a 'Bastards Incorporated' employee badge, or just had money routed to them and work freelance.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on May 19, 2022, 07:40:59 PMI have a love/hate relationship with Shadowrun in all its aspects; this especially includes its lore. Its potential has always been great, but in practice its always felt frustrating (to me). This isn't a modern problem or a lore change issue. Even reading older lore stuff from 1e, I felt Shadowrun could never decide if it wanted to be tan trench coat or purple mohawk.
That's a good way to phrase it and an excellent point. The thematic point of the noir-cum-cyberpunk genre is the contrast between what is ostensibly an advanced, peaceful and enlightened culture and the corruption running under the surface, a corruption resulting largely just from people being people. Throwing in the high fantasy elements up-ends both the systems and the nature of the corruption -- it's a lot harder to be cynical and resigned to achieving some minuscule good at best, if there are elves running around with the songs of the ancient wild in their heart and magicians who can heal wounds and demonstrate miracles.
One of the biggest decisions about running a
Shadowrun campaign should be deciding, is this fantasy with cyberpunk trappings, or is it cyberpunk with fantasy trappings?
QuoteSo I was thinking about how I would tweak Shadowrun to be more full 'purple mohawk' in subtle, and not so subtle ways.
Subtle:
1. The State of the world is pseudo-anarchic. Corporate feudalism isn't a state of betterment (even for the corpos), but of collapse. ...everybody falls back into tribal conflicts.
2. The Biggest rivals to corpos are (gimmicky) gangs. Large scale governments sort of exist, but in a massively fragmented and weakened state. Militarized gangs with a mixture of radicalized populace and disenfranchised ex-military/ militarized police have control of the streets (sort of like a more extreme version of mexicos gangs).
The primary question a culture like this would have to answer is, how is the industrial manufacturing base maintained? Failed states of this sort tend not to be able to endure for very long unless they can gain support from external powers with stabler economies. It's hard to have the cyberpunk adventures of Matrix-running in a city prone to rolling blackouts on an unpredictable basis.
Quote3. The lack of a real culture of respect at corpos means that retention of upper tier talent is very weak. This is especially true for security forces that often have to do the corpos dirty work. As a result its more profitable to be an independent contractor, in the similar principle as a pirate during the age of sail.
As above, the thing about the Golden Age of Piracy was that it was only viable for a brief period of time (about 30 years) and required a stable base of legitimate economic activity from established powers to parasite upon. If it really is more profitable for top talent to be freelancers rather than bound by contract, the corp contracts have to offer benefits that are worth sacrificing that profit and freedom for in order to stay stable and viable. (AI memory backup, allowing for "resurrection" in a cloned body a la
Altered Carbon, might be one such benefit, and would explain why shadowrunners keep running into the same foes even if they do kill them.)
Quote4. The fall of centralized power means corporate power is less powerful and watchful outside of its own borders. What happens if somebody does a breach of contract and runs into another corpo. How do you punish them? Ask for them back? Tell the police? Organize an expensive retrieval squad?
Well, one thought that occurs to me is: What if this is a world that has
already been taken over by massively powerful AIs? The whole point of noir as a
sub rosa corruption is that there
does have to be a remote, but real, threat of destruction from whatever systems run the nation if the bad guys get too visible in their crime. If central human governments have become too weak, maybe there's a coalition of AIs who will join forces to contract private security on any shadowrunner who becomes too visible or destructive. (In fact, that is why the corps need the shadowrunners; the AIs enforce their primary contracts in a way that only zeroed-out private contractors with no licit Matrix presence can avoid.)
QuoteNot So subtle:
1. The FEV virus only directly killed like 10% of the population. But this indirectly massacred billions. 50+ish percent. Broken supply lines and starvation killed much more people.
2. Many metropolises are necropolises haunted by ghosts. With FEV as contagious and airborne, concentrated population centers that didn't evacuate on time just died in massive amounts. The depth of the agony creates mass hauntings. For this reason places like new York have not been possible to reclaim fully or even at all. For some reason the ghosts also somehow stabilize the areas, preventing it from simply instantly crumbling from disrepair. So trying to explore literal ghost cities for loot is a thing.
3. Magic has allowed human society to survive. Quickened spells and such allows for things like infinite energy, or increased crop yields. Its not just good for medicine or killing people.
4. Lots of areas have been reclaimed by magical effects or aggressive magical wildlife. If calling the exterminator requires they grab a rifle, staying in a place becomes more then its worth.
5. As a result, new denser mega-housing projects have been constructed in magically weaker zones.
That makes for a really interesting setting, but I would have to say I think it has completely parted ways with anything resembling
Shadowrun at this point. Again, if you don't have a mostly stable and widespread culture that
looks like it's thriving and prospering for most ordinary folks, you can't have the elements of noirish cynicism and punkish rebellion that are central to the game, because there's not really an established system to be cynical about or rebellious against.
I tried tweaking Shadowrun to my taste when it came out and I found that it was easier and less time consuming to just use Cyberpunk or Cyberpunk 2020.
Like most, I too have a love/hate relationship with Shadowrun. Mine however is mostly with the rules. I played through the first three editions, and in my younger days, I managed through the rules but could see the huge warts.
However, for me back then, the metaplot while fairly ubiquitous, was more background fluff for me. It seasoned the meal, but didn't overwhelm the palate.
However, I revisited Shadowrun a couple years ago, picking up "Anarchy" (Which I almost instantly houseruled to death to make it playable, before switching the Savage Worlds) and realized the metaplot had become this unbearably disjointed mismatch of flavors. Roe and mashmallow fluff of gaming.
So I basically ditched all of the meta plot, and created my own. The same mega corps are there, many of the old clubs are there. Racial tension is still there. Gangs still roam in the barrens and so on. I stripped it back down to it's 1980s roots.
As for the shadowrunners, they tend to work less for the corps, and more for individuals within the corps. Usually they are mid tier exec who use the runners to expand their power in the corporation, or to perform tasks that would be best kept quiet.
Also, since the runners tend to live in the seedier side of the sprawl, they sometimes tend to become reluctant protectors and get involved in low life local situations.
By keeping it smaller, the mega corps are still there, but more as background flavor. My metaplot looks little like the official one. So much so, that I will likely just ditch it all and use a few tropes for a different version of the game.
I'd say the biggest problem is that there's a metaplot in the first place. It's a game, not a novel.
As such, it needs a setting/starting cast and maybe an inciting incident... then it's up to the GM and player choices what happens next. If the PCs decide to overthrow a particular mega-corp by gathering tons of allies and slaying the dragon behind the curtain... that's the story of that campaign. Your next campaign can either treat that as table canon or reset for the next campaign.
Quote from: Chris24601 on May 20, 2022, 08:12:29 AM
I'd say the biggest problem is that there's a metaplot in the first place. It's a game, not a novel.
As such, it needs a setting/starting cast and maybe an inciting incident... then it's up to the GM and player choices what happens next. If the PCs decide to overthrow a particular mega-corp by gathering tons of allies and slaying the dragon behind the curtain... that's the story of that campaign. Your next campaign can either treat that as table canon or reset for the next campaign.
IMO the metaplot was the boon and bane of the game in some ways. In the early days, the Shadowrun novels helped to establish the world. This increased the games exposure and popularity, much like Dragonlance did for D&D. However, as time went by, and every edition moved the timeline forward, the metaplot became too bloated. Now its a convoluted mess.
I'd trim back the ubiquity of 'you can't fight the megacorporations' bullshit.
I like SR, but damn, sometimes it feels like the designers got married to 'status quo is god'. The closest they've come to upending that was Dunkelzahn's death (and subsequent will).
I would put out a sourcebook giving ideas on 'How to let your runners flip the table', figuratively speaking, regarding the current metaplot. Blowing up Z-O, for example.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 20, 2022, 09:55:03 AM
I'd trim back the ubiquity of 'you can't fight the megacorporations' bullshit.
I like SR, but damn, sometimes it feels like the designers got married to 'status quo is god'. The closest they've come to upending that was Dunkelzahn's death (and subsequent will).
I would put out a sourcebook giving ideas on 'How to let your runners flip the table', figuratively speaking, regarding the current metaplot. Blowing up Z-O, for example.
Is it my inner Grognard or did the Shadowrun metaplot feel like it went off the rails when FASA lost control of it?
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on May 20, 2022, 02:28:19 AMThe thematic point of the noir-cum-cyberpunk genre is the contrast between what is ostensibly an advanced, peaceful and enlightened culture and the corruption running under the surface, a corruption resulting largely just from people being people. Throwing in the high fantasy elements up-ends both the systems and the nature of the corruption -- it's a lot harder to be cynical and resigned to achieving some minuscule good at best, if there are elves running around with the songs of the ancient wild in their heart and magicians who can heal wounds and demonstrate miracles.
I don't think cyberpunk is about the world being fantastic for the normies with "some" internal corruption. Maybe its in way more other cyberpunk literature, but I always thought it was about a shitty state of the world with fallen standards for the value of life. All the dystopic elements of today with machinery replacing life, but ratcheted up to dystopic levels. Things being good with evil below the surface I didn't think fit.
I don't think the fantasy harms it in any way. In Shadowrun magic has been a 99.99999% bad thing for the world anyway. Again its more interested in prattling on about all the untold number and variety evil god spirits/diseases/cults/creatures about to wreck your day, moreso then any magical wonder.
QuoteThat makes for a really interesting setting, but I would have to say I think it has completely parted ways with anything resembling Shadowrun at this point.
Possibly. For a while, Shadowrun made me think I hated cyberpunk. But I realized I don't. There are tons of cyberpunky settings and stories I really like: Shadowrun is just not a good setting outside of its catch of 'Cyberpunk but with magic'.
I especially like the videogame 'Huntdown', which is ostensibly what Shadowrun was suposed to be about, it just tones itself better. Playing Huntdown felt like a setting that would be cool to roleplay in. So I was thinking of a way to add more Huntdown to Shadowrun.
Also its got an amazing trailer I want to show off to everybody:
Quote from: Godsmonkey on May 20, 2022, 08:22:33 AMIMO the metaplot was the boon and bane of the game in some ways. In the early days, the Shadowrun novels helped to establish the world.
Metaplots are always a bane. It established the world: as being moved by NPCs you will never interact with or play. It was always a setup in the wrong direction. I have never seen a metaplot actually improve a state of a game world.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 20, 2022, 09:55:03 AM
I'd trim back the ubiquity of 'you can't fight the megacorporations' bullshit.
It would be less annoying if the writers focused on anything but the workings of megacorpos. An interesting detailing of just a city and what you can do in it to make life better in a tangible way, would be fine even if your not going against a megacorp. But the writers are not interested in small scale stories like that, and the ones they do are super boring. Shadowrun is like a D&D campaign where your expected to play 5th level heroes but all the setting books are about the actions of level 60 gods.
Quote from: Godsmonkey on May 20, 2022, 10:01:01 AMIs it my inner Grognard or did the Shadowrun metaplot feel like it went off the rails when FASA lost control of it?
Its your inner grognard. I intentionally went back to older materials (as a guy introduced with new stuff), and it was ALWAYS a problem.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on May 20, 2022, 10:01:38 AM
I don't think cyberpunk is about the world being fantastic for the normies with "some" internal corruption. Maybe its in way more other cyberpunk literature, but I always thought it was about a shitty state of the world with fallen standards for the value of life. All the dystopic elements of today with machinery replacing life, but ratcheted up to dystopic levels. Things being good with evil below the surface I didn't think fit.
Well, that's true, but I think the thing about dystopias is that they only survive because most people in them accept them as the best they can get (and the people in charge of them always spin them to be better than they are). That, too, is part of noir and cyberpunk: the resigned acceptance by most of the "normies" of "the way things are" has a strain of both superficial, hypocritical public support and unspoken cynicism and dissatisfaction.
Neither
Shadowrun,
Neuromancer nor
Blade Runner ever painted much of a picture of what it was like to live in the middle class of those societies, that I know of; it was always the clash of the wealthy elite vs. the criminal underclass.
QuoteIn Shadowrun magic has been a 99.99999% bad thing for the world anyway.
There I will agree that the worldbuilding definitely took an unnecessary fail. There are so many ways access to the powers of Shadowrun-style magic could improve society -- and so many cultural attitude shifts it would logically produce as well -- that assuming they have
never done so simply trips my suspension of disbelief. (I have the same issue with
The Walking Dead as a universe: the length of time it took our heroes to find/build a post-Walker society that wasn't psychotic in some way finally broke my ability to buy into that world.)
QuoteMetaplots are always a bane. It established the world: as being moved by NPCs you will never interact with or play.
That's the basic difficulty of non-shared world iterations: PCs who want to change their world can never change more than their local copy of it, but PCs who want to feel like part of a world that has an independent changing reality of its own have to accept that they themselves will never make those big changes. (I think that may be part of the appeal of MMORPGs.)
The setting of Harn, for example, explicitly terminates all setting products as of the start of the year TR 720, so that all PCs have their own version of the world to play in where they can be the movers and shakers; the downside of that is that nobody gets to know what the "official" version of Harn's future would look like, and the popularity of metaplots does indicate some demand for that.
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on May 20, 2022, 03:21:09 PMWell, that's true, but I think the thing about dystopias is that they only survive because most people in them accept them as the best they can get (and the people in charge of them always spin them to be better than they are). That, too, is part of noir and cyberpunk: the resigned acceptance by most of the "normies" of "the way things are" has a strain of both superficial, hypocritical public support and unspoken cynicism and dissatisfaction.
Having lived in eastern europe I understand that. What I mean is that, if things are by and large 'fine', being a rebel in such a system makes you look like a jackass. And unless there is some guy to directly punt for it to get better, then punting people also makes you a nitwit. And playing a nitwit jackass that calls themselves a 'Shadowrunner' is extruciating when not in a comedy game.
QuoteNeither Shadowrun, Neuromancer nor Blade Runner ever painted much of a picture of what it was like to live in the middle class of those societies, that I know of; it was always the clash of the wealthy elite vs. the criminal underclass.
I assumed the idea of such settings is a collapse OF a middle class. There is also a large degree of irreversable calamity in the setting responsible to prevent some degree of normalization. Except Shadowrun, which doesn't logically consider the consequences of its worldbuilding under a degree of serious scrutiny. And throws in some new minor calamity every once in a while so that things can't normalize while still trying to be poe-faced serious. There has to be a new hotness to be racist-at every decade or so.
QuoteThere are so many ways access to the powers of Shadowrun-style magic could improve society -- and so many cultural attitude shifts it would logically produce as well -- that assuming they have never done so simply trips my suspension of disbelief.
It wouldn't be such a problem if the game didn't take itself so 'tax-filing' seriously. Megacorps owning fleets of aircraft carriers in a light tone game? Is over the top and cool. But in a setting that wants you to take it seriously, its LUDICRIST.
QuoteThat's the basic difficulty of non-shared world iterations: PCs who want to change their world can never change more than their local copy of it, but PCs who want to feel like part of a world that has an independent changing reality of its own have to accept that they themselves will never make those big changes.
Again, what makes it worse is that the metaplot ends up taking priority in generating material over generating cool hooks and places for PCs to do things.
Chaning independant realities happen in larps. Just when its published literature it sucks.
QuoteI think that may be part of the appeal of MMORPGs.
It isn't because narratively its assumed that you 'Did' those changes. A NPC generally isn't critical for change: you are. And even if it isn't king boss of bosses, then you played a MAJOR role in making it happen. The major appeal of MMORPGs is addictive social conditioning.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on May 20, 2022, 03:48:01 PMWhat I mean is that, if things are by and large 'fine', being a rebel in such a system makes you look like a jackass. And unless there is some guy to directly punt for it to get better, then punting people also makes you a nitwit. And playing a nitwit jackass that calls themselves a 'Shadowrunner' is excruciating when not in a comedy game.
Well, there's a difference between "actually objectively fine" and "fine enough for most people to grudgingly accept for lack of an alternative". But yes, rebels do generally tend to look like jackasses and criminals to most non-rebels, right up until things in general get bad enough that they don't -- and part of being a rebel is to push the situation to that point.
From this perspective the problem with
Shadowrun is the existential difficulty of all "-punk" art, in that it's inherently about defying established orders without actually proposing any viable replacement, or even believing that a viable replacement is possible or desirable -- it's defying the system solely because it
is a system. For those who choose it as a vocation, shadowrunning isn't about overthrowing the megacorps, it's about carving out as free a life for yourself as you can before the inevitable end -- maybe, at best, enjoying the chaos that would come from being able to somehow set corp against corp ("chaos is a ladder," as Petyr Littlefinger said). But as a mindset that way of life is very difficult to sustain, and the tension between those who embrace the shadows and those who are trying to get out of them would have been another rich source of roleplaying drama.
QuoteThere is also a large degree of irreversable calamity in the setting responsible to prevent some degree of normalization. Except Shadowrun, which doesn't logically consider the consequences of its worldbuilding under a degree of serious scrutiny. And throws in some new minor calamity every once in a while so that things can't normalize while still trying to be poe-faced serious. There has to be a new hotness to be racist-at every decade or so.
Agreed, although to some extent that's a product of the medium and the marketing; you can see the same effect bedevilling the Forgotten Realms with every edition shift in D&D. Novelty sells.
QuoteAgain, what makes it worse is that the metaplot ends up taking priority in generating material over generating cool hooks and places for PCs to do things.
True, although the flip side of that is that the more rigorously the consequences of the PCs' actions from cool hooks/locations Set A are followed -- especially if they are epic and setting-changing -- the less likely the cool hooks/locations from Sets B and C are going to be available. Just to pick one of the classic gags of the setting, if your PCs somehow assassinate Dunkelzahn the Dragon before he even begins his campaign for President, every hook based around that expected campaign immediately becomes useless.
(And lack of ability to effect meaningful large-scale change for the better is, in its own way, another hallmark of noir fiction, so one could argue for it having a place in cyberpunk as well. But this is one of the ways in which I think RPGs differ fundamentally from literature; in a game, player actions have to make critical differences to outcomes, or it stops feeling like a game.)
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on May 21, 2022, 01:51:45 AMFor those who choose it as a vocation, shadowrunning isn't about overthrowing the megacorps, it's about carving out as free a life for yourself as you can before the inevitable end -- maybe, at best, enjoying the chaos that would come from being able to somehow set corp against corp ("chaos is a ladder," as Petyr Littlefinger said).
And Shadowruns biggest problem is that it makes it look glamerous, and then saddles you with the paperwork instead. In both mechanical and lore-terms.
In Huntdown you play bounty hunters. The very introduction of the game (https://youtu.be/jViZD0YDZTY) makes it clear that its people trying to live by their own rules. Not joining the gangs or the corpos. But throught the game, you work freelance for a corpo, hunting down gangs making trouble, and even turning down lucrative offers from your targets. And while the gangs are evil, the hunters themselves are bloodthirsty sociopaths, and there is little to show the corpos to be anything but corrupt and ruthless.
Spoilers:At the end of the game, your stiffed of your money by the same corpo you where working for, and a bounty is put on YOUR head. And then even your employer is also axed off for being a loose end!
But the critical, CRITICAL difference, is that Huntdown makes it all super cool, with a large amount of black humor, and doesn't like to hear itself talk. It gives JUST enough information for the basics of a fleshed out world, but focuses on being cool and YOU being cool, not the setting wanking itself off with tons of minutia. Things in the setting focus on being really imagination catching, and cool to be in, even in a relatively toned down way.
QuoteTrue, although the flip side of that is that the more rigorously the consequences of the PCs' actions from cool hooks/locations Set A are followed -- especially if they are epic and setting-changing -- the less likely the cool hooks/locations from Sets B and C are going to be available.
Except thats the issue: the hooks SUCK, and the locations BLOW. Linear adventures can at least offer the promises of really powerful set pieces that free-structured adventures can't provide. But Shadowrun doesn't even trust the players with that.
Its idea of a 'Adventure', is you MAYBE being a bodyguard to the REAL movers and shakers, and just observe as they do stuff. The PCs are there just to stand around and see stuff unfold, maybe shoot a bloke every once in a while. Even as linear storytelling material, that is WANK.
And I don't believe that Shadowrun really wants to be about cynicism and you loosing all the time. In its videogames, its literature, its always an exceptional crew making a large difference. Saving the world once. But thats because they just have self contained villians to be defeated. And thats the stuff people walk away with the most pleasing memories of and compliments of.
And I wouldnt demand that. You don't need to save the world, or a city, in order to make RPG play meaningful. The general writers for Shadowrun just suck, and have sucked from the very start.
Quote from: Godsmonkey on May 20, 2022, 10:01:01 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 20, 2022, 09:55:03 AM
I'd trim back the ubiquity of 'you can't fight the megacorporations' bullshit.
I like SR, but damn, sometimes it feels like the designers got married to 'status quo is god'. The closest they've come to upending that was Dunkelzahn's death (and subsequent will).
I would put out a sourcebook giving ideas on 'How to let your runners flip the table', figuratively speaking, regarding the current metaplot. Blowing up Z-O, for example.
Is it my inner Grognard or did the Shadowrun metaplot feel like it went off the rails when FASA lost control of it?
Felt that way to me. Or at the very least it felt like it lost its vision with each new edition and as the original writers left.
Theres some good stuff in the later books but it seems more and more megacorp oppression oriented and less and less magic and wilderness as time went on.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on May 21, 2022, 02:26:44 AM
In Huntdown you play bounty hunters. The very introduction of the game (https://youtu.be/jViZD0YDZTY) makes it clear that its people trying to live by their own rules. Not joining the gangs or the corpos. But throught the game, you work freelance for a corpo, hunting down gangs making trouble, and even turning down lucrative offers from your targets. And while the gangs are evil, the hunters themselves are bloodthirsty sociopaths, and there is little to show the corpos to be anything but corrupt and ruthless.
Spoilers:At the end of the game, your stiffed of your money by the same corpo you where working for, and a bounty is put on YOUR head. And then even your employer is also axed off for being a loose end!
But the critical, CRITICAL difference, is that Huntdown makes it all super cool, with a large amount of black humor, and doesn't like to hear itself talk. It gives JUST enough information for the basics of a fleshed out world, but focuses on being cool and YOU being cool, not the setting wanking itself off with tons of minutia. Things in the setting focus on being really imagination catching, and cool to be in, even in a relatively toned down way.
To be fair, you're comparing the feelings you're getting from a single-player run-and-gun video game with pregen characters and a linear plot to the feelings you get from a tabletop rpg and everything that entails.
Of course that video game has a tight interesting plot filled with cool moments and witty quips... its all scripted and your twitch reflexes are as meaningful to the plot's progress as turning the page of a novel (even if it does require more coordination and effort).
I suspect you'd be having the exact same problems with a HUNTDOWN tabletop rpg because it too would have to balance the canon and status quo of the on-rails video game with the ability of ttrpg PCs to go totally off-script... which also requires building up enough of the setting so when the PCs do go off the rails there's actually something to see and, because the GM is now having to improvise dialogue and plots based on unscripted PC actions, suddenly all that cool black humor dies because the GM is nowhere near as witty in real time as a script writer with hours to craft perfect moments can be.
I mean, I stand by my "metaplot is a problem" statement, but I think part of the problem too is you're just wanting things from one genre (on-rails video games) that just don't cross into the ttrpg genre very well (even one roll to resolve a combat takes longer than it would to resolve a mook fight in a video game).
It reminds me a bit of the discussion over in the Star Trek game without time travel thread about how the genre conventions of scripted television/films don't necessarily translate well at all to ttrpg play. Shadowrun's main problem seems to be that it's veered hard towards enforcing the events of its non-ttrpg media onto the rpg.
Quote from: Chris24601 on May 21, 2022, 11:13:47 AMI suspect you'd be having the exact same problems with a HUNTDOWN tabletop rpg because it too would have to balance the canon and status quo of the on-rails video game with the ability of ttrpg PCs to go totally off-script... which also requires building up enough of the setting so when the PCs do go off the rails there's actually something to see and, because the GM is now having to improvise dialogue and plots based on unscripted PC actions, suddenly all that cool black humor dies because the GM is nowhere near as witty in real time as a script writer with hours to craft perfect moments can be.
Possibly. I don't expect A-tier quips from book writers, and I don't compare all my TTRPG elements to videogames 99% of the time. I just brought it up because it was the most comprable plot wise: Bounty Hunters/Shadowrunners.
But the black humor was more then just written quips. 40K had this sort of humor as well about its setting, until it started taking itself seriously and justified all of its humerous elements within setting, killing the joke and becoming self indulgent.
QuoteI mean, I stand by my "metaplot is a problem" statement, but I think part of the problem too is you're just wanting things from one genre
I agree with that, I just say that is not its main issue. Thats the deflection of the main issue because the world itself isn't designed around interesting hooks of stuff to do. The only thing that was a highlight was the metaplot, so the writers kept working it up and ignoring everything else.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on May 19, 2022, 08:48:02 PM
Quote from: Omega on May 19, 2022, 07:57:42 PMSo where the PCs are can have a big impact on the tone.
The PCs cannot have a large impact on Shadowrun because its demi-gods and Corporations are the writers actual pets. They are its Drizzt. So they don't want your annoying PC messing up what they have going. They will spend books detailing data that the PCs don't interact with, and doesn't really interact with them. "Well what do the Shadowrunners do in this?" is number 357 in priority.
The setting is by and large incongrous and doesn't stick together. My best Shadowrun experiences had been the videogame, and my best Cyberpunk experience was Huntdown. So im thinking out loud about its manic energy.
This is my problem with pretty much all long-running well-established trpg settings. It's just the writers' fanfiction masquerading as game fluff and isn't actually designed to played in.
That's why I have a preference for interstellar scifi settings where the focus is on the PCs going on wild unpredictable adventures ranging from pure pulp to pure horror. One week they might rescue a princess and stop an interstellar war, the next they might investigate a ghost ship and fight horrible space parasites.
Hypothetically you could do that for any genre, such as paranormal investigators. These long-running franchises don't do that tho and I'm sick of it. I'm sick of bloated irrelevant overbearing creativity-sapping lore/metaplot.
The SNES Shadowrun game did a good job of capturing the feel of the setting and some of the mechanics. It has a better feel of tech meets magic.
The Sega Shadowrun feels slightly more tech and less magic in some ways. But I never got far with it so maybe shifts later?
And from what I saw the Sega CD SR game bore little resemblance to Shadowrun and would have been better titled Cyberpunk 2020.
The SR arena game was just some arena game with the Shadowrun title slapped on and some of the avatars tweaked to be more SR-ish. The Shadowrun action figure game from WizKids feels more SR than that thing.
Havent seen the PC games yet. Curious how those will feel.
Think that over time its felt like the setting itself has felt less and less Shadowrun with each edition.
Quote from: Omega on May 21, 2022, 11:45:58 PM
The SNES Shadowrun game did a good job of capturing the feel of the setting and some of the mechanics. It has a better feel of tech meets magic.
The Sega Shadowrun feels slightly more tech and less magic in some ways. But I never got far with it so maybe shifts later?
And from what I saw the Sega CD SR game bore little resemblance to Shadowrun and would have been better titled Cyberpunk 2020.
The SR arena game was just some arena game with the Shadowrun title slapped on and some of the avatars tweaked to be more SR-ish. The Shadowrun action figure game from WizKids feels more SR than that thing.
Havent seen the PC games yet. Curious how those will feel.
Think that over time its felt like the setting itself has felt less and less Shadowrun with each edition.
I have Shadowrun Hong Kong, Shadowrun Dragonfall, and Shadowrun Returns on PC. They were free releases on Epic some time ago. Of those, I can only speak to Dragonfall as I haven't tried the others yet. The combat system is pretty much Xcom, which is a good thing, and the story and dialogue are not bad. I'd say it feels pretty solidly like Shadowrun to me, except perhaps for a few characters that are a bit too virtuous for the setting.
Quote from: Omega on May 21, 2022, 11:45:58 PMThink that over time its felt like the setting itself has felt less and less Shadowrun with each edition.
This is a common issue with many settings.
It's one of the reasons I stick with first editions, even if they are mechanically flawed compared to later editions, invariably first editions have a raw power in their settings that often lacking in future renditions.
Does the BurgerKrieg visit here? Some good thoughts on the subject.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3f8087Vz9U
Quote from: Spinachcat on May 22, 2022, 09:38:36 PM
Quote from: Omega on May 21, 2022, 11:45:58 PMThink that over time its felt like the setting itself has felt less and less Shadowrun with each edition.
This is a common issue with many settings.
It's one of the reasons I stick with first editions, even if they are mechanically flawed compared to later editions, invariably first editions have a raw power in their settings that often lacking in future renditions.
I've noticed this too. It's like the writers take for granted that players are already familiar with the fluff and don't bother to be as evocative and creative in their descriptions as they used to be.