Im not looking for simultaneous combat...I like initiative, somebody is quicker than somebody else.
I'm looking where both combatants are both rolling "attack"
I don't like where one pc "attacks" then the other "defends" etc.
no GURPS., and most other TTRPGs seem to do a variant of this.
Then on the other hand you have Cairn which assumes both sides hit.
I don't like this either because I think it's possible to miss.
I'm looking for something where a pc attacks a foe and both roll their attack or fighting skill and add in a weapon mod and whoever scores highest success wins the fight then rolls damage - armor = hits/damage to the other.
Quote from: briansommers on March 18, 2024, 01:30:28 PM
Im not looking for simultaneous combat...I like initiative, somebody is quicker than somebody else.
...
I'm looking for something where a pc attacks a foe and both roll their attack or fighting skill and add in a weapon mod and whoever scores highest success wins the fight then rolls damage - armor = hits/damage to the other.
These two sentences seem to contradict each other to me. If both sides roll simultaneously, where would a separate initiative come into play? It seems there's no space for it either narratively or mechanically.
My own system is similar to what you describe -- I call it SMOR (Simultaneous Mass Opposed Roll) -- but it also subsumes initiative. In SMORC
all combatants roll simultaneously, success is besting your defender's roll, damage is the difference between the rolls, initiative is whoever rolls highest resolves first. One roll for everything.
I don't know of any published systems that do anything similar (but likely someone else does, I don't pay much attention).
Quote from: briansommers on March 18, 2024, 01:30:28 PM
Im not looking for simultaneous combat...I like initiative, somebody is quicker than somebody else.
I'm looking where both combatants are both rolling "attack"
I don't like where one pc "attacks" then the other "defends" etc.
no GURPS., and most other TTRPGs seem to do a variant of this.
Then on the other hand you have Cairn which assumes both sides hit.
I don't like this either because I think it's possible to miss.
I'm looking for something where a pc attacks a foe and both roll their attack or fighting skill and add in a weapon mod and whoever scores highest success wins the fight then rolls damage - armor = hits/damage to the other.
Tunnels and Trolls (1975) is the earliest example I know of this. It's changed some between editions, but in my edition, each side totals their attack total, and the difference between the two totals is split as damage among the losing side - though individual armor subtracts from damage taken.
Shadowrun (1989) has a more developed version of this. I'm only familiar with first edition, which uses this for melee combat. I'd have to look it up for details.
See if you can dig up a copy of the old indy game (late-80's to early-90's) called Darkus Thel.
It features just the sort of combat you're looking for. In combat, each side rolled their attack dice and subtracted the loser's from the winners to determine the damage to the loser. If two people were fighting the same opponent, you added their results together to compare against the enemy's roll.
You then subtract the value of your armor from the damage to find out how much you took. If you wanted to avoid more of the damage you could "cringe" parts of it to double the amount of damage it can soak, but that destroyed the piece.
Attack Spells generally just rolled damage and subtracted the armor for any damage it dealt, but the caster then got no rolled protection against attacks (unless someone else defends them with their dice roll).
WEG Star Wars D6 has combat being an opposed roll, winner takes all. They tied it into initiative in 1st edition which I found clunky and hard to use. (What if your target is fighting someone else? Does it chain around the participants? Who does what in a three way?) 2nd ed used initiative, and initative is easy to houserule into 1st.
Quote from: briansommers on March 18, 2024, 01:30:28 PM
Im not looking for simultaneous combat...I like initiative, somebody is quicker than somebody else.
I don't like where one pc "attacks" then the other "defends" etc.
Roll initiative, one side attacks then the other attacks. Sounds like D&D.
Quote from: briansommers on March 18, 2024, 01:30:28 PM
Im not looking for simultaneous combat...I like initiative, somebody is quicker than somebody else.
I'm looking where both combatants are both rolling "attack"
I don't like where one pc "attacks" then the other "defends" etc.
no GURPS., and most other TTRPGs seem to do a variant of this.
Then on the other hand you have Cairn which assumes both sides hit.
I don't like this either because I think it's possible to miss.
I'm looking for something where a pc attacks a foe and both roll their attack or fighting skill and add in a weapon mod and whoever scores highest success wins the fight then rolls damage - armor = hits/damage to the other.
Psssages D20 (2006, Blue Devil Games) is close.
Both attacker and defender roll d20 + Attack bonus.
Highest roller hits the other guy.
Damage = difference between rolls + weapon value - Armor.
Example:
Aramis is fighting Rochefort.
Aramis gets a 24 (17 + 7) and Rocherfort gets a 19 (13 + 6).
Aramis hits.
Damage = 5 (24-19) + rapier (2) - leather armor (2) for a total of 5 points of damage.
https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/23156/passages
(edit: I had it slightly wrong. It's been a while.)
The only contemporary example of this I'm aware of is Warlock!. Whenever the an attack is made, both parties roll their relevant weapon skills, the agressor gets a +5 bonus on the roll, and whoever wins hits. I generally like this system a lot. I do think that anytime you attack an armed opponent, there ought to be a chance of getting tagged for your trouble, but I would rather that it was possible for an exchange to end with no one getting hit. If I was homebrewing it, I'd probably make it so that you have to beat the opponent's roll by 3 on the modified check.
Arguably, Warlock! does not have an initiative system, but it is turn-based. The default rule is just having one of the players go, then one of the NPCs, and so on until everybody on both sides has gone.
Frostgrave
QuoteOnce a figure is in combat with an enemy figure, it may spend one of its actions
to fight. It is not required to do this, but generally its only other option is to do
nothing as figures are not allowed to move, shoot, reload, drink a potion, use an
item, or cast a spell while in combat. In a fight, each figure makes a Combat Roll
by rolling a die and adding its Fight stat and any relevant modifiers. The figure
with the higher score wins the fight and may inflict damage on its opponent. To
determine damage, the winning figure takes its Combat Roll, adds any damage
modifiers granted by its weaponry, and subtracts the loser's Armour stat. If the
result is a positive number, this is the amount of damage inflicted. This damage
is then subtracted from the Health of the loser...
In the event that the Combat Rolls are tied, the two figures land
their strikes simultaneously – both are considered to be the winner and both
might take damage.
You have to successfully attack to disengage from an opponent.
QuoteOnce a winner has been determined and any damage inflicted, the winner of
the fight has a decision to make. They can either have the two figures remain in
combat, or can push back one of them (either their own figure or their
opponent's) by 1". This move must be 1" directly away from the opposing figure.
HarnMaster?
The classic D6 Star Wars, but using the "Dueling Blades" rules is the only system I know of that does this.
https://griffonpubstudio.blogspot.com/p/schweigs-d6-resources.html (https://griffonpubstudio.blogspot.com/p/schweigs-d6-resources.html)
For those who don't know, Dueling Blades are a set of 1vs1 melee combat rules for Star Wars D6 that give more than just hit or miss as a result. There are five results. A tie, a push, a stun, a hit, and a GM narrated critical hit.
The way it works is skipping rolling initiative due to the fact that both duelists roll their attack at the same time. It is the margin of success or failure that determines what happens. This includes margin of failure. In that case you suffer the hit when you fail.
My game Deluxe USR Sword & Sorcery was built specifically to take a run at making combat simultaneous. After playing the shit out of it for years I am very happy with the results. Any questions? Fire away!
D&D. Roll initiative. Winner rolls to hit against some target number based on their armour, dexterity and so on. If you hit, roll damage. Then the opponent gets a go.
"I'm looking for a system like the very first rpg published." It really helps to know your rpg history, mate.
A simple rule is to do this.
Play your favorite RPG as normal. If you roll to hit and succeed, then you roll damage as normal. But, if you miss (or the enemy misses you) then roll damage as if you were attacked and hit.
Just get rid of misses. A miss becomes an attack-of-opportunity for the enemy that always hits. Also, the same goes for NPC attacks that miss. You hit them automatically.
It would speed up combat.
Yes, weirdguy. Or you just treat everything as two opposed rolls. Both combatants do an attack roll, highest wins, the difference between rolls is the damage inflicted.
Surprise or initiative are abstracted into, "well, you went first, so you get a +1 to your attack roll," or the like. Armour and general defence add to the attack roll, since if you're geared up you can be more aggressive in combat.
You'd have to make an exception when one attacker is using a ranged weapon at a distance the other with their melee weapon couldn't attack back (eg longbow vs sword at 100 feet), but that's about it.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron on March 23, 2024, 03:10:08 AM
You'd have to make an exception when one attacker is using a ranged weapon at a distance the other with their melee weapon couldn't attack back (eg longbow vs sword at 100 feet), but that's about it.
The problem I ran into is that this actually happens all the time. It's not an exception, it's a regularity. If I recall correctly, it happened
every time there were more than 2 enemy combatants fighting the party over the course of the six months we used this method in our weekly game.
This is why we switched to a single simultaneous roll for everyone, which has worked wonderfully for us. If an action includes both attack and defense, it includes defense against everyone attacking you -- whether in your face or at range. You swing your sword while blocking an axe blow and ducking below an arrow.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron on March 22, 2024, 07:18:43 AM
D&D. Roll initiative. Winner rolls to hit against some target number based on their armour, dexterity and so on. If you hit, roll damage. Then the opponent gets a go.
"I'm looking for a system like the very first rpg published." It really helps to know your rpg history, mate.
Quote from: briansommers on March 18, 2024, 01:30:28 PM
I'm looking for something where a pc attacks a foe and both roll their attack or fighting skill and add in a weapon mod and whoever scores highest success wins the fight then rolls damage - armor = hits/damage to the other.