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Pen & Paper Roleplaying Central => Pen and Paper Roleplaying Games (RPGs) Discussion => Topic started by: GeekyBugle on August 12, 2020, 02:44:16 pm

Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 12, 2020, 02:44:16 pm
Just what the tin says.

The Wheelchair has to be as light as a 21st century sports one.

It has to be able to be folded and not add width to the character in any axis.

It has to add zero drag when swimming.

It has to fly in order to traverse cliffs leaving the character the hands free if it needs them to fend of monsters.

It has to be able to change course when flying to avoid attacks.

It has to be self propelling to traverse muddy roads without loosing more speed than anyone walking.

Towns need accessibility ramps.

It probably needs to be able to propel the user even when folded in flooded tunnels for instance, and add zero weight.

The user has to be able to get on/off of it as fast as a character dropping to the floor, getting up.

It has to be able to jump chasms.

It has to be fire proof and not heat conductive.

It has to not slow down the user in steep inclines.

It has to not roll down those same steep inclines.

It has to be able to traverse rope bridges.

Or you have to eliminate anything and everything from your world that would make it impossible to be wheelchair bound and go adventuring you bigots!
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: RandyB on August 12, 2020, 02:46:29 pm
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1144548
Just what the tin says.

The Wheelchair has to be as light as a 21st century sports one.

It has to be able to be folded and not add width to the character in any axis.

It has to add zero drag when swimming.

It has to fly in order to traverse cliffs leaving the character the hands free if it needs them to fend of monsters.

It has to be able to change course when flying to avoid attacks.

It has to be self propelling to traverse muddy roads without loosing more speed than anyone walking.

Towns need accessibility ramps.

It probably needs to be able to propel the user even when folded in flooded tunnels for instance, and add zero weight.

The user has to be able to get on/off of it as fast as a character dropping to the floor, getting up.

It has to be able to jump chasms.

It has to be fire proof and not heat conductive.

It has to not slow down the user in steep inclines.

It has to not roll down those same steep inclines.

It has to be able to traverse rope bridges.

Or you have to eliminate anything and everything from your world that would make it impossible to be wheelchair bound and go adventuring you bigots!


Traveller calls it a Grav Belt. So, an artifact?
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 12, 2020, 02:51:19 pm
Quote from: RandyB;1144549
Traveller calls it a Grav Belt. So, an artifact?

What's the shape, size and weight of said Grav Belt?
How many uses does it have before needing recharge?
Is Traveller in a Medieval setting?
Is it self propelling?

I'm not against someone making such a character mind you, but I'm also not gonna change the world for it.
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: RandyB on August 12, 2020, 03:03:25 pm
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1144550
What's the shape, size and weight of said Grav Belt?
How many uses does it have before needing recharge?
Is Traveller in a Medieval setting?
Is it self propelling?

I'm not against someone making such a character mind you, but I'm also not gonna change the world for it.

No, Traveller is not medieval. I don't have the books near to hand, but as I recall it is literally a heavier belt.

For a medieval fantasy setting, such a device would have to be an artifact, whether technological or magical, rather than a piece of equipment. However, the advantages of that item are such that an able-bodied person would benefit from it.

So, bigoted!

Edit to add: for clarity, I agree with you. "Wheelchair bound fantasy adventurer" makes no damn sense.
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 12, 2020, 03:57:32 pm
Quote from: RandyB;1144554
No, Traveller is not medieval. I don't have the books near to hand, but as I recall it is literally a heavier belt.

For a medieval fantasy setting, such a device would have to be an artifact, whether technological or magical, rather than a piece of equipment. However, the advantages of that item are such that an able-bodied person would benefit from it.

So, bigoted!

Edit to add: for clarity, I agree with you. "Wheelchair bound fantasy adventurer" makes no damn sense.

I know Traveller isn't medieval, it was a rhetorical question, yep it would be so OP it would be used by anyone.

Yep Wheelchair bound adventurer makes zero sense, why not find someone to heal you? or get magical prosthetic limbs? Or a fucking flying carpet!
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: Stephen Tannhauser on August 12, 2020, 04:31:13 pm
Doing my usual blithe miss-the-point-completely gig, it occurs to me that you could make a fantastic RPG or literary hero out of a tragically paralyzed warrior given a magical suit of armour that allowed him to walk and fight again -- a suit of metal black as night, glinting blood red at the joints, animated by a dark supernatural force that demands its price from the wearer not in blood, but in tiny bits of soul and heart, wearing away one's humanity bit by bit . . . a suit that mysteriously, without warning, locks up in total immobility whenever the wearer comes too near a church, or a powerful cleric of Good, and which whispers . . . thoughts . . . to the wearer's mind whenever alone with innocents . . . .

As GURPS has pointed out in every edition, a disadvantage that isn't a disadvantage isn't worth anything. If it has a dramatic or rule relevance to the game, the most you can do is change how it disadvantages the PC, not the fact that it does.
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: RandyB on August 12, 2020, 04:33:37 pm
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser;1144569
Doing my usual blithe miss-the-point-completely gig, it occurs to me that you could make a fantastic RPG or literary hero out of a tragically paralyzed warrior given a magical suit of armour that allowed him to walk and fight again -- a suit of metal black as night, glinting blood red at the joints, animated by a dark supernatural force that demands its price from the wearer not in blood, but in tiny bits of soul and heart, wearing away one's humanity bit by bit . . . a suit that mysteriously, without warning, locks up in total immobility whenever the wearer comes too near a church, or a powerful cleric of Good, and which whispers . . . thoughts . . . to the wearer's mind whenever alone with innocents . . . .


That's one hell of a concept. :D
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 12, 2020, 04:34:40 pm
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser;1144569
Doing my usual blithe miss-the-point-completely gig, it occurs to me that you could make a fantastic RPG or literary hero out of a tragically paralyzed warrior given a magical suit of armour that allowed him to walk and fight again -- a suit of metal black as night, glinting blood red at the joints, animated by a dark supernatural force that demands its price from the wearer not in blood, but in tiny bits of soul and heart, wearing away one's humanity bit by bit . . . a suit that mysteriously, without warning, locks up in total immobility whenever the wearer comes too near a church, or a powerful cleric of Good, and which whispers . . . thoughts . . . to the wearer's mind whenever alone with innocents . . . .

As GURPS has pointed out in every edition, a disadvantage that isn't a disadvantage isn't worth anything. If it has a dramatic or rule relevance to the game, the most you can do is change how it disadvantages the PC, not the fact that it does.

That sounds as a comic book/novel/tv show/movie I would pay to see/read.
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: Stephen Tannhauser on August 12, 2020, 04:45:08 pm
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1144571
That sounds as a comic book/novel/tv show/movie I would pay to see/read.

Much obliged, although full disclosure requires me to acknowledge that it owes a pretty big debt to Moorcock's Elric of Melnibone, at least in terms of basic trope structure.  (EDIT: I also realized that another influence may well have been the Mantle of the Winter Knight, as described in The Dresden Files.)

One key detail to play with would be the character's backstory; has he always been physically impaired, like Elric, or was it a tragic and relatively recent result of accident or injury, like Charles Xavier in the recent X-MEN films? His attitude towards his own condition would be very shaped by this, especially if he was unjustly denied other solutions.  (Perhaps this is a world where the necessary magical healing was too expensive for him, or where injuries can't be repaired if they're left too long to heal by themselves first and the Church's clerics were simply not around.)
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: RandyB on August 12, 2020, 04:53:21 pm
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser;1144574
Much obliged, although full disclosure requires me to acknowledge that it owes a pretty big debt to Moorcock's Elric of Melnibone, at least in terms of basic trope structure.

One key detail to play with would be the character's backstory; has he always been physically impaired, like Elric, or was it a tragic and relatively recent result of accident or injury, like Charles Xavier in the recent X-MEN films? His attitude towards his own condition would be very shaped by this, especially if he was unjustly denied other solutions.  (Perhaps this is a world where the necessary magical healing was too expensive for him, or where injuries can't be repaired if they're left too long to heal by themselves first and the Church's clerics were simply not around.)

Or magical healing is somewhere between severely limited to nonexistent, with "there's always a price to be paid" fully in scope.
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: Stephen Tannhauser on August 12, 2020, 05:07:44 pm
Quote from: RandyB;1144575
Or magical healing is somewhere between severely limited to nonexistent, with "there's always a price to be paid" fully in scope.

That's a good solution for a story; I suspect it would go over less well in an RPG because that changes one of most RPG settings' (and players') critical assumptions, i.e. that super-effective healing is generally readily available and that as long as you can stay alive you're almost certain to stay fully functional.

Which is not to say that there aren't groups who wouldn't try it enthusiastically all the same, but pointing out that for certain concepts to work in certain settings, sometimes the entire group has to be on board with it. This can be harder to accomplish in practice than many of the, shall we say, over-idealistic advocates for such ideas sometimes grasp -- one doesn't have to be an outright jerk to dislike the idea of one player insisting the group and the game bend to fit his idea specifically.
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: RandyB on August 12, 2020, 05:13:12 pm
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser;1144577
That's a good solution for a story; I suspect it would go over less well in an RPG because that changes one of most RPG settings' (and players') critical assumptions, i.e. that super-effective healing is generally readily available and that as long as you can stay alive you're almost certain to stay fully functional.

Which is not to say that there aren't groups who wouldn't try it enthusiastically all the same, but pointing out that for certain concepts to work in certain settings, sometimes the entire group has to be on board with it. This can be harder to accomplish in practice than many of the, shall we say, over-idealistic advocates for such ideas sometimes grasp -- one doesn't have to be an outright jerk to dislike the idea of one player insisting the group and the game bend to fit his idea specifically.

Free your game from the D&D paradigm of magic. It's too limiting.

Your second point is the major point of this thread.
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: Shasarak on August 12, 2020, 05:27:13 pm
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1144548
Or you have to eliminate anything and everything from your world that would make it impossible to be wheelchair bound and go adventuring you bigots!


Which is why I never ever set my games in a medieval setting.

You know that in ADnD they had a spell called Tensers Floating Disk?  But somehow the real problem is making a Fantasy Wheelchair.
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: Stephen Tannhauser on August 12, 2020, 05:33:15 pm
Quote from: RandyB;1144578
Free your game from the D&D paradigm of magic. It's too limiting.

It's less about the paradigm of magic than it is about the paradigm of conflict in action-adventure generally.

In one game design thread I read back in my TBP days, a poster noted something that has stuck with me ever since: The biggest problem of RPG combat is that two game elements the target audience strongly likes -- (a) frequent combat and (b) realistic-seeming combat -- tend to logically lead to a third element the target audience strongly dis-likes, i.e. (c) frequent character death. Cheap and easy healing is only one way to get out of this bind -- some games try to teach players the hard way to be much more careful about fighting than usual, while others will deliberately structure it to be far less dangerous in practice than the fluff implies -- but games which have no way out of that bind tend not to do too well.

So if cheap and easy healing isn't available to characters, the game either has to be tailored to make its absence less disruptive, or the group has to get used to what may be a very different playstyle -- which, again, as you rightly spot, is a case of one player's concept changing the shape of the game for the whole group. That a good many groups will have no problem with this, I don't doubt; it's the presumption of the moral authority to demand it that I, like I suspect a number of others 'round these parts, object to.
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 13, 2020, 11:03:53 am
A summoner whose eidolon carries him around might work (especially if he's the much hated synthesist variant).
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: HappyDaze on August 13, 2020, 11:11:23 am
Quote from: Ghostmaker;1144704
A summoner whose eidolon carries him around might work (especially if he's the much hated synthesist variant).

And, if you have that player, then the wheelchair is a living construct and is the actual PC, with whatever rides in it being the familiar/follower/pet.
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: Pat on August 13, 2020, 11:26:14 am
I like the idea of an animated suit of armor. Another fun option might be a throne/palanquin. Since we want to give it a smaller profile, let's replace the litter and the litter-bearers with small golems, that carry the chair from beneath. In some ways it would resemble the Luggage, except if you look under the chair, dark onyx eyes peer back at you, and you might hear whispers like oiled blocks of a slate rubbing against each other as they chatter in their lithic tongue. They might get confused by conflicting or unclear orders, and pull in different directions. The bottom of the throne has handles for their tiny (but oversize, compared to their body) hands. There might be a set of handles on the back as well, for going up cliffs.
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: Alderaan Crumbs on August 13, 2020, 11:31:59 am
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser;1144569
Doing my usual blithe miss-the-point-completely gig, it occurs to me that you could make a fantastic RPG or literary hero out of a tragically paralyzed warrior given a magical suit of armour that allowed him to walk and fight again -- a suit of metal black as night, glinting blood red at the joints, animated by a dark supernatural force that demands its price from the wearer not in blood, but in tiny bits of soul and heart, wearing away one's humanity bit by bit . . . a suit that mysteriously, without warning, locks up in total immobility whenever the wearer comes too near a church, or a powerful cleric of Good, and which whispers . . . thoughts . . . to the wearer's mind whenever alone with innocents . . . .


*YOINK!*
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: Pat on August 13, 2020, 11:32:44 am
Quote from: Ghostmaker;1144704
A summoner whose eidolon carries him around might work (especially if he's the much hated synthesist variant).
The classic D&D version would be a djinn. (They have a carrying capacity for a reason.)
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: Stephen Tannhauser on August 13, 2020, 12:38:38 pm
Quote from: HappyDaze;1144707
And, if you have that player, then the wheelchair is a living construct and is the actual PC, with whatever rides in it being the familiar/follower/pet.

Okay, that is brilliant. :D
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: VisionStorm on August 16, 2020, 09:23:18 am
Someone posted this over at the Pub... :D

https://strataminiatures.com/shop/?store-page=Dungeons-and-Diversity-c57880798&fbclid=IwAR2U6IHYz_SskkknT5uhDS9tlAoGiItMI6oWukB1rrzhDh6EWNJBh9fSwdU

(https://www.rpgpub.com/attachments/strata-jpg.21254/)
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: FelixGamingX1 on August 16, 2020, 02:47:14 pm
Quote from: VisionStorm;1145086
Someone posted this over at the Pub... :D

https://strataminiatures.com/shop/?store-page=Dungeons-and-Diversity-c57880798&fbclid=IwAR2U6IHYz_SskkknT5uhDS9tlAoGiItMI6oWukB1rrzhDh6EWNJBh9fSwdU

(https://www.rpgpub.com/attachments/strata-jpg.21254/)

That's very cool in fact. I find it to be even more charming than other standard figures.
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: VisionStorm on August 16, 2020, 03:10:27 pm
Quote from: FelixGamingX1;1145123
That's very cool in fact. I find it to be even more charming than other standard figures.


Yeah, if I was into miniatures I might get some as a goof. Especially the dual axe spinning dwarf, or maybe the rogue with throwing knifes strapped to the wheels.
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: Simon W on August 17, 2020, 06:05:55 am
In the Netflix series Vikings, didn't one of the characters have little or no use of his legs? (I didn't watch it much). I think he mostly used a chariot?
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: RPGPundit on August 17, 2020, 08:45:54 am
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1144548
Just what the tin says.

The Wheelchair has to be as light as a 21st century sports one.

It has to be able to be folded and not add width to the character in any axis.

It has to add zero drag when swimming.

It has to fly in order to traverse cliffs leaving the character the hands free if it needs them to fend of monsters.

It has to be able to change course when flying to avoid attacks.

It has to be self propelling to traverse muddy roads without loosing more speed than anyone walking.

Towns need accessibility ramps.

It probably needs to be able to propel the user even when folded in flooded tunnels for instance, and add zero weight.

The user has to be able to get on/off of it as fast as a character dropping to the floor, getting up.

It has to be able to jump chasms.

It has to be fire proof and not heat conductive.

It has to not slow down the user in steep inclines.

It has to not roll down those same steep inclines.

It has to be able to traverse rope bridges.

Or you have to eliminate anything and everything from your world that would make it impossible to be wheelchair bound and go adventuring you bigots!


Here's the fundamental problem with your line of argument: when you say "medieval settings", you are presuming D&D settings like Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk. These are NOT medieval settings. They are ridiculous ren-faire US-tv-show fantasy funlands, where you could pretty much do any damn thing you wanted.  Gary Gygax had rules for slot machines in the dungeon.

So when SJWs say "you must let disabled player play disabled characters with Magical Combat Wheelchairs in your game", replying "this is not medieval" is a stupid and bad rebuttal to that. And it makes the SJWs seem reasonable and like the people fighting them are autistic nerds with no empathy who they can now accuse of "caring more about 'realism' in an elf-game than about PEOPLE!!1!".

The correct rebuttal is: "what you are demanding has nothing to do with gaming".
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 17, 2020, 08:48:28 am
Quote from: RPGPundit;1145213
Here's the fundamental problem with your line of argument: when you say "medieval settings", you are presuming D&D settings like Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk. These are NOT medieval settings. They are ridiculous ren-faire US-tv-show fantasy funlands, where you could pretty much do any damn thing you wanted.  Gary Gygax had rules for slot machines in the dungeon.

So when SJWs say "you must let disabled player play disabled characters with Magical Combat Wheelchairs in your game", replying "this is not medieval" is a stupid and bad rebuttal to that.

The correct rebuttal is: "what you are demanding has nothing to do with gaming".

In other words, mid to high fantasy worlds where such devices would be considered curiosities when compared to the utility of magic and sorcery. But you're not wrong. This is about someone wanting to shoehorn in a stupid idea.
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: RandyB on August 17, 2020, 09:00:00 am
Quote from: RPGPundit;1145213
The correct rebuttal is: "what you are demanding has nothing to do with gaming".


Well said.

That can be used as a rebuttal to anything the SJWs try to impose on the hobby, during the "I'm going to be polite while I still can" phase of the encounter.
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: The Exploited. on August 17, 2020, 10:49:35 am
Well said Pundit.

I've no problem with someone wanting play in a wheelchair. As long as they accept the possible consequences for doing so. Like not being able to get in and out of a dungeon every easily (if at al depending on the size). Or having the players leave them when the party encounter some nasty creature and they have to run like blazes. Or having tactical disadvantages to the rear. Or even having to traverse that narrow cliff pass atop of a snowy mountain. The list is endless.

Also, you could have a floating magic wheelchair. But I don't want that in a low magic or low fantasy system.

But that's how I like to game others may do it differently.
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: Ghostmaker on August 17, 2020, 11:55:30 am
I don't see the attraction at all, and it smacks of fetishism, which creeps me the fuck out. There is nothing 'awesome' or 'empowering' about having limited mobility. Even on a temporary basis it's no fun.
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 17, 2020, 12:05:10 pm
Quote from: RPGPundit;1145213
Here's the fundamental problem with your line of argument: when you say "medieval settings", you are presuming D&D settings like Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk. These are NOT medieval settings. They are ridiculous ren-faire US-tv-show fantasy funlands, where you could pretty much do any damn thing you wanted.  Gary Gygax had rules for slot machines in the dungeon.

So when SJWs say "you must let disabled player play disabled characters with Magical Combat Wheelchairs in your game", replying "this is not medieval" is a stupid and bad rebuttal to that. And it makes the SJWs seem reasonable and like the people fighting them are autistic nerds with no empathy who they can now accuse of "caring more about 'realism' in an elf-game than about PEOPLE!!1!".

The correct rebuttal is: "what you are demanding has nothing to do with gaming".

And you would be 100% correct if I was arguing with an SJW, but I'm not, I'm mocking them.

Besides I would totally allow someone to have a combat wheelchair in my games, after reading the shit and maybe toning it down if needed.

But here's the thing, If I don't know you and you come with this? It's just as big of a red flag as the "security tools".
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: Stephen Tannhauser on August 17, 2020, 03:51:35 pm
Quote from: Simon W;1145207
In the Netflix series Vikings, didn't one of the characters have little or no use of his legs? (I didn't watch it much). I think he mostly used a chariot?

Yes, that was Ivar the Boneless, who was actually a pretty awesome character. Played by Alex Hogh. He also used crutches and braces.

EDIT: It must also be acknowledged, however, that that series featured Ivar striking up a friendship with Prince Oleg of the Kievan Rus and riding with him on a hot air balloon, which Oleg apparently invented about 900 years ahead of time, so the series' historicity is, er, not strict.
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: Stephen Tannhauser on August 17, 2020, 04:02:00 pm
Quote from: RPGPundit;1145213
The correct rebuttal is: "what you are demanding has nothing to do with gaming".

Or only incidentally, at any rate. Insofar as all RPGing has a streak of wish-fulfillment in it, I have no objection to anyone else's per se; the difficulty here is that the particular type of fantasy being sought is something of a contradiction -- the desire is to "eat one's cake and have it too", to have players' RL experiences of personal obstacles represented without those experiences being obstacles in the game for the PC.

I won't say this is impossible, but it does strike me as something difficult enough to do plausibly that each group and PC is going to need to work out their own individual solution for it, tailored exactly to a specific hypothetical PC.
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: Lurkndog on August 18, 2020, 10:49:29 am
Quote from: RandyB;1144575
Or magical healing is somewhere between severely limited to nonexistent, with "there's always a price to be paid" fully in scope.


At which point you won't have to worry about players at all.

Seriously, magical healing is essential. It's there so that a chance encounter with goblins on the way to the dungeon doesn't sideline half the party for a month. It balances a feeling of danger with the ability to keep playing the game.
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: The Exploited. on August 18, 2020, 11:45:20 am
Grimjim's just released a good vid on the matter:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_t9vMKRhyo&t=0s
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: Manic Modron on August 18, 2020, 12:03:21 pm
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser;1145289
Or only incidentally, at any rate. Insofar as all RPGing has a streak of wish-fulfillment in it, I have no objection to anyone else's per se; the difficulty here is that the particular type of fantasy being sought is something of a contradiction -- the desire is to "eat one's cake and have it too", to have players' RL experiences of personal obstacles represented without those experiences being obstacles in the game for the PC.

I won't say this is impossible, but it does strike me as something difficult enough to do plausibly that each group and PC is going to need to work out their own individual solution for it, tailored exactly to a specific hypothetical PC.

I agree.  This isn't a one size fits all scenario, to be sure.  It works for that person and fits what she wants to be able to do in her fantasy world, clearly.  Even for somebody else in her position with her conditions, they might not want the same thing out of their gaming.

Sufficiently applied thaumaturgy is indistinguishable from technology though, and while this wouldn't work for actual period games, other fantasy settings might not have the same limitations.

It would be incongruous in Lion and Dragon for sure.
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: Mistwell on August 19, 2020, 01:17:40 pm
Quote from: Ghostmaker;1145255
I don't see the attraction at all, and it smacks of fetishism, which creeps me the fuck out. There is nothing 'awesome' or 'empowering' about having limited mobility. Even on a temporary basis it's no fun.

The minis are pretty awesome.
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 19, 2020, 03:01:01 pm
Quote from: Mistwell;1145514
The minis are pretty awesome.

Oh well then everybody is wrong to reject this BS and we should all embrace it or be burned at the stake.
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: Razor 007 on August 19, 2020, 04:03:33 pm
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1144548
Just what the tin says.

The Wheelchair has to be as light as a 21st century sports one.

It has to be able to be folded and not add width to the character in any axis.

It has to add zero drag when swimming.

It has to fly in order to traverse cliffs leaving the character the hands free if it needs them to fend of monsters.

It has to be able to change course when flying to avoid attacks.

It has to be self propelling to traverse muddy roads without loosing more speed than anyone walking.

Towns need accessibility ramps.

It probably needs to be able to propel the user even when folded in flooded tunnels for instance, and add zero weight.

The user has to be able to get on/off of it as fast as a character dropping to the floor, getting up.

It has to be able to jump chasms.

It has to be fire proof and not heat conductive.

It has to not slow down the user in steep inclines.

It has to not roll down those same steep inclines.

It has to be able to traverse rope bridges.

Or you have to eliminate anything and everything from your world that would make it impossible to be wheelchair bound and go adventuring you bigots!


Why are you inserting Inspector Gadget into my medieval fantasy setting?
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: Stephen Tannhauser on August 19, 2020, 05:59:53 pm
Quote from: Razor 007;1145542
Why are you inserting Inspector Gadget into my medieval fantasy setting?

"Go, go, Gadget Rotor-Flail!"
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 19, 2020, 06:05:08 pm
Quote from: Razor 007;1145542
Why are you inserting Inspector Gadget into my medieval fantasy setting?

You don't want to be a bigot do you?
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: Spinachcat on August 19, 2020, 06:34:15 pm
Wanna have a PC in a wheelchair? Great. Now you're fucked in combat.

All the magic necessary to create a mobile mecha is far more magic than a healing spell. It's beyond idiocy in D&D and only makes the slightest "sense" in point-buy games where "can't walk" gives you a bucket of points to spend on other stuff.

I've been hospitalized by drunk/distracted drivers twice and lost some or most of my mobility for months while in recovery. There was nothing stunning, brave or empowering from the experience. As my friends are dark humor monsters, we had lots of fun at my expense, but there wasn't a moment when I wanted to play a PC afflicted with any disability. Again, that's why I smell sexual fetish with these D&D Twitter freaks.

One of my RIFTS pregens was born crippled and in a post-apoc monster filled world, it's amazing she made it to her late teens when her village sold her to slavers who borg'd her against her will. It was a tragic character to roleplay. Unsurprising, she was rarely chosen among the PCs even though she was very powerful on paper.
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: jeff37923 on August 19, 2020, 06:51:05 pm
I'm sitting here just wondering, "Why?"

Fuck the wheelchair, cut my character's useless legs off and shove his torso into a backpack with a bow and arrows. Now you have someone covering your back!
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: Shasarak on August 19, 2020, 07:59:47 pm
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1145554
You don't want to be a bigot do you?


Bit too late to start worrying about that.

;)
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: Mistwell on August 19, 2020, 08:03:42 pm
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1145539
Oh well then everybody is wrong to reject this BS and we should all embrace it or be burned at the stake.

Are you high, to have gotten that from "the minis are pretty awesome"?
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: jhkim on August 19, 2020, 08:10:57 pm
It's not a given that magic will let you automatically cure any injury more easily than creating an automaton. Magic varies a ton from game to game. For example, I'm playing in Call of Cthulhu now, and we regularly have to deal with a PC being temporarily disabled from a major injury. And here "temporarily" means weeks in-game since there is no healing magic. We have some magic from spell books (mostly summoning horribly things), but no healing magic. We haven't had a permanent crippling in my current game, but it's not impossible to imagine how it could work.

The only long-term wheelchair-using PC I recall was a long time ago, in a realistic modern-day superpowers game I ran in college. One of the PCs had electrical powers, and would have died from being shot, but as a twist, I offered to have him live but his spinal cord was severed. After the injury, he learned he could temporarily still use his legs by using his powers, but only for a short time and with concentration. So he needed a wheelchair for any long-term movement. I thought that made for a very interesting wrinkle to the game.

One of my favorite PCs in recent years didn't use a wheelchair, but did have limited mobility and used a cane to walk. It was in a game based on the TV series Alphas, where all the PCs had a neurological super-ability but it came with a major downside. My son's PC had perfect muscular control - he could make a house of cards as quickly as he could move his hand and was a masterful pickpocket and martial artist, but at the cost that he couldn't fully relax and was tired all the time. He needed a cane and frequent stops to get around. It was an intriguing concept that worked well in play.

I haven't had a wheelchair user in a fantasy game, but that doesn't mean it's an unworkable concept. I've had plenty of PCs with different disabilities -- partly but not wholly because of a past fondness for GURPS and HERO. It's sometimes taken some thinking to work them in, but doing so has always meant the game was better for it.


Quote from: Spinachcat;1145557
Wanna have a PC in a wheelchair? Great. Now you're fucked in combat.

All the magic necessary to create a mobile mecha is far more magic than a healing spell. It's beyond idiocy in D&D and only makes the slightest "sense" in point-buy games where "can't walk" gives you a bucket of points to spend on other stuff.

I've been hospitalized by drunk/distracted drivers twice and lost some or most of my mobility for months while in recovery. There was nothing stunning, brave or empowering from the experience. As my friends are dark humor monsters, we had lots of fun at my expense, but there wasn't a moment when I wanted to play a PC afflicted with any disability.
I'm sorry about your accidents -- and it's totally a valid preference to not want to play a PC with any disability. That said, just because you wouldn't want it or you would be offended by it, that doesn't mean it can't be fun for other groups.
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 19, 2020, 08:27:31 pm
Quote from: jhkim;1145574
It's not a given that magic will let you automatically cure any injury more easily than creating an automaton. Magic varies a ton from game to game. For example, I'm playing in Call of Cthulhu now, and we regularly have to deal with a PC being temporarily disabled from a major injury. And here "temporarily" means weeks in-game since there is no healing magic. We have some magic from spell books (mostly summoning horribly things), but no healing magic. We haven't had a permanent crippling in my current game, but it's not impossible to imagine how it could work.

The only long-term wheelchair-using PC I recall was a long time ago, in a realistic modern-day superpowers game I ran in college. One of the PCs had electrical powers, and would have died from being shot, but as a twist, I offered to have him live but his spinal cord was severed. After the injury, he learned he could temporarily still use his legs by using his powers, but only for a short time and with concentration. So he needed a wheelchair for any long-term movement. I thought that made for a very interesting wrinkle to the game.

One of my favorite PCs in recent years didn't use a wheelchair, but did have limited mobility and used a cane to walk. It was in a game based on the TV series Alphas, where all the PCs had a neurological super-ability but it came with a major downside. My son's PC had perfect muscular control - he could make a house of cards as quickly as he could move his hand and was a masterful pickpocket and martial artist, but at the cost that he couldn't fully relax and was tired all the time. He needed a cane and frequent stops to get around. It was an intriguing concept that worked well in play.

I haven't had a wheelchair user in a fantasy game, but that doesn't mean it's an unworkable concept. I've had plenty of PCs with different disabilities -- partly but not wholly because of a past fondness for GURPS and HERO. It's sometimes taken some thinking to work them in, but doing so has always meant the game was better for it.



I'm sorry about your accidents -- and it's totally a valid preference to not want to play a PC with any disability. That said, just because you wouldn't want it or you would be offended by it, that doesn't mean it can't be fun for other groups.

Virtue signaling and then strawmaning.
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 19, 2020, 08:31:09 pm
Lets see if some finally get the objections:

Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: HappyDaze on August 20, 2020, 05:28:52 am
Quote from: jhkim;1145574
That said, just because you wouldn't want it or you would be offended by it, that doesn't mean it can't be fun for other groups.

If only this could be adopted for everyone, everywhere about everything...
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: LiferGamer on August 20, 2020, 07:35:22 am
"Dungeons have stairs my dude."
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: Zalman on August 20, 2020, 10:36:17 am
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser;1144569
Doing my usual blithe miss-the-point-completely gig, it occurs to me that you could make a fantastic RPG or literary hero out of a tragically paralyzed warrior given a magical suit of armour that allowed him to walk and fight again -- a suit of metal black as night, glinting blood red at the joints, animated by a dark supernatural force that demands its price from the wearer not in blood, but in tiny bits of soul and heart, wearing away one's humanity bit by bit . . . a suit that mysteriously, without warning, locks up in total immobility whenever the wearer comes too near a church, or a powerful cleric of Good, and which whispers . . . thoughts . . . to the wearer's mind whenever alone with innocents . . . .


I almost skipped this thread to avoid all the nonsense ... so glad I didn't miss this.
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: Mistwell on August 20, 2020, 10:48:37 am
Dirty Ho is a 1979 kung fu comedy movie. It's very silly 70s cheesy kung fu. This scene involves what would be considered a D&D monk in a wheelchair in battle. It works fine. In a 70s cheesy king fu way.

Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 20, 2020, 11:14:54 am
Quoting this answer from kythri from the other thread because it is important and relevant.

Quote from: kythri;1145671
Learn a bit about "the one who made it" - "the one who made it" isn't in a wheelchair.  The one who made it is self-diagnosed with such a mild form of Ehlers-Danlos - so mild that it doesn't impact her life in any way, other than giving her the abilithy to virtue signal by appropriating disability, and using it to get sham jobs like "disability consultant" and "sensitivity reader - she's the "disabled" version of Rachel Dolezal.

A wheelchair user did not create this, you twat.  But the creator has no problem attacking wheelchair users who have dared to criticized this nonsense, as "ableist", which goes even further to show you what kind of a trash person they are.
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: RandyB on August 20, 2020, 11:30:19 am
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser;1144569
Doing my usual blithe miss-the-point-completely gig, it occurs to me that you could make a fantastic RPG or literary hero out of a tragically paralyzed warrior given a magical suit of armour that allowed him to walk and fight again -- a suit of metal black as night, glinting blood red at the joints, animated by a dark supernatural force that demands its price from the wearer not in blood, but in tiny bits of soul and heart, wearing away one's humanity bit by bit . . . a suit that mysteriously, without warning, locks up in total immobility whenever the wearer comes too near a church, or a powerful cleric of Good, and which whispers . . . thoughts . . . to the wearer's mind whenever alone with innocents . . . .


Quote from: Zalman;1145676
I almost skipped this thread to avoid all the nonsense ... so glad I didn't miss this.


Tasty, thirst quenching lemonade from the lemons of the initial concept being discussed.
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: Lurkndog on August 20, 2020, 11:42:11 am
Quote from: The Exploited.;1145237
I've no problem with someone wanting play in a wheelchair. As long as they accept the possible consequences for doing so. Like not being able to get in and out of a dungeon every easily (if at al depending on the size). Or having the players leave them when the party encounter some nasty creature and they have to run like blazes. Or having tactical disadvantages to the rear. Or even having to traverse that narrow cliff pass atop of a snowy mountain. The list is endless.

In my experience, it is very unlikely that the player will accept the consequences of their choice. Rather, those consequences will land on the rest of the party, as they will be the ones who have to haul Bob across the river.

If I were to allow this as a GM, it would be under the condition that the player doesn't get any points for the "disad" and the rest of the party gets to buy Wheelchair Character as a dependent.

Honestly, if the point is to get the character extra "screen time" they should have to buy it as an advantage.
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: The Exploited. on August 20, 2020, 11:57:06 am
Quote from: Lurkndog;1145699
In my experience, it is very unlikely that the player will accept the consequences of their choice. Rather, those consequences will land on the rest of the party, as they will be the ones who have to haul Bob across the river.

Yeah, I can see that if you have very self-entitled players. Fair point.

As a GM, if you know that will be a problem then I'd simply say no you can't play a crippled character from the get go (who the hell would want to play one anyway??). I've always thought when it comes to RPGin' that the needs of the group comes before the individual. Everyone is welcome at the table until one idiot wants to screw the game up for the others.
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: Omega on August 20, 2020, 01:02:38 pm
Didnt we discuss this to death four threads ago? And bang arouns all manner of ideas on how to make it work? Or better alternatives?

Why yes. Yes we did.

So here we are at this... again... Why?

Yes. A straight up wheelchair for an adventurer is a "roll new character" waiting to happen in myriad ways. But there are so many alternatives as listed off in the other threads.

At this point do I care if some fake handicapped person makes us look like morons, again? Yes. And No. Because this isnt the last we will see of stuff like this and it isnt new either. Sometimes its not a malicious inclusion. Someone just thinks its a cool idea or are handicapped themselves and think its worth including, or did research and think its worth including. Im one of those in the "handicapped and thought it was worth including" types and actually surprised a few RPG designers way back because they admitted the idea had never occurred to them. I put it in my book as a chargen option with the notation that its going to be a problem. As mentioned before I had one player who was disabled who wanted to play a disabled character who was for all intents and purposes not disabled through various magical workarounds. The character was created normally with no bonus points.
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: LiferGamer on August 20, 2020, 01:04:39 pm
Quote from: Lurkndog;1145699
In my experience, it is very unlikely that the player will accept the consequences of their choice. Rather, those consequences will land on the rest of the party, as they will be the ones who have to haul Bob across the river.

If I were to allow this as a GM, it would be under the condition that the player doesn't get any points for the "disad" and the rest of the party gets to buy Wheelchair Character as a dependent.

Honestly, if the point is to get the character extra "screen time" they should have to buy it as an advantage.


In my old group, well, you all know the joke about outrunning a bear right?

Just shoot it down immediately.  Don't open yourself to the headache.  Nine times out of ten its some asshole either wanting to game the system or just pull your chain.

I had a player want their tiefling (KoS in civilization in my campaign) warlock (ditto, but at least some can lay low) of the elder gawd (FML) have just one arm.  I told them: ''You don't really want that.''  Well, I allowed it, and even allowed that one of their spells manifested as a tentacle bursting from the stump.  That said, disadvantage rolls A PLENTY for anything that needs more than one arm.  Fortunately, he dropped out (again).


---------------------

ASIDE/Why I think it's mostly attention whores in play - This is the same fucker:

My setting has a very tropey (cliche'd) barely hidden American Western theme.  The halfling settlers moving west as part of the reclamation are downright quaker/puritan-esque; black floppy hats and all.  Ultra-consevative.

I explained that they worship Tamara the healer (http://amiawiki.shatuga.com/index.php?title=Tamara), and are mostly pacifistic, turn-the-other-cheek sorts.  (The main cultures worship the dragon pantheon; it's actually a meta-plot point for them to figure out why)  

So this fucker two sessions in, announced that their female cleric (already semi-scandalous, she was one-of-a-kind, but the worshipers took their cue from the fact that Tamara granted her her spells, so the earthly authorities begrudgingly accepted it) was now a married lesbian.  Basically, I ignored it.  When he first dropped out, his character was recalled, and pulled an accidental Martin Luther, so now the most beneficent, compassionate, widespread healers in the campaign, are having a (so far cold) holy war/schism.  Not helped by the fact that their gawdess is bleeding out in avatar form to heal the land, so can't exactly pay attention to this shit.
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: Stephen Tannhauser on August 20, 2020, 01:10:59 pm
Quote from: The Exploited.;1145701
I'd simply say no you can't play a crippled character from the get go (who the hell would want to play one anyway??).

To look at the other side of it, I can imagine somebody with an impairment in real life starting to find it really painful playing characters who don't share it. Sometimes forgetting one's problems temporarily only makes having to remember them again all the worse.  It's not unreasonable to try to find a middle road where you can still play a game you love with your friends without setting yourself up for that.

Quote
I've always thought when it comes to RPGin' that the needs of the group comes before the individual. Everyone is welcome at the table until one idiot wants to screw the game up for the others.

This too makes sense, but again, on the other hand, if a game isn't fun for everybody in the group then it's failing somewhere. The individual has a right to object if the rest of the group is doing something that's screwing things up for him too.

Of course, leaving groups to work all this out for themselves used to be a perfectly valid option. Trying to preach moral or sociopolitical standards for it in an attempt to sell a new kind of product is an altogether dodgier approach.
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: Stephen Tannhauser on August 20, 2020, 01:18:20 pm
Quote from: RandyB;1145695
Tasty, thirst quenching lemonade from the lemons of the initial concept being discussed.

Eh, 'swhat I do. :o  Much obliged for the kind words.
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: The Exploited. on August 20, 2020, 01:31:55 pm
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser;1145707
To look at the other side of it, I can imagine somebody with an impairment in real life starting to find it really painful playing characters who don't share it. Sometimes forgetting one's problems temporarily only makes having to remember them again all the worse.  It's not unreasonable to try to find a middle road where you can still play a game you love with your friends without setting yourself up for that.



This too makes sense, but again, on the other hand, if a game isn't fun for everybody in the group then it's failing somewhere. The individual has a right to object if the rest of the group is doing something that's screwing things up for him too.

Of course, leaving groups to work all this out for themselves used to be a perfectly valid option. Trying to preach moral or sociopolitical standards for it in an attempt to sell a new kind of product is an altogether dodgier approach.

The middle ground is found by saying, sure you can play a crippled character buuuut you're mobility is limited. A person who wishes to play a cripple should also be willing to make some sacrifices to the group and not be a dick either.

On the group side of things... It really depends on who they are. It's my role as a GM to make sure everyone is enjoying the game (myself included). The guys I generally play with are all pretty cool. So, you'd not get any one person screwing the group dynamic up. If an interloper came along and wanted to play something silly, and that could screw the game up, I would not allow it. And I'd be fine if they wanted to play somewhere else or called me a prick. I'm not trying to be deliberately mean... But I just want to play with people who are on the same level so-to-speak.

Lastly, and this is a definite sticking point for me. And one that I wouldn't move on personally... In a high-fantasy 5e setting you could get a floating magical chair thingey. But not in a low-magic or gritty setting. So, at the end of the day, if you do get a chair in that type of setting you're screwed, when it comes to going down stairs or into a small cave, tomb or whatever. Then it's up to the players, do you want to carry 300lb Bulbo the Barbarian, or leave him there at the entrance as a guard? Up to them...
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: jhkim on August 20, 2020, 01:42:45 pm
Quote from: Omega;1145704
Didnt we discuss this to death four threads ago? And bang arouns all manner of ideas on how to make it work? Or better alternatives?
Sorry, I missed out on the previous threads, and I just now did a web search to find the D&D wheelchair article. This isn't to you, Omega - but it would be helpful if people were to provide links if they're making reference to a specific other discussion or article.

Quote from: Omega;1145704
At this point do I care if some fake handicapped person makes us look like morons, again? Yes. And No. Because this isnt the last we will see of stuff like this and it isnt new either. Sometimes its not a malicious inclusion. Someone just thinks its a cool idea or are handicapped themselves and think its worth including, or did research and think its worth including. Im one of those in the "handicapped and thought it was worth including" types and actually surprised a few RPG designers way back because they admitted the idea had never occurred to them. I put it in my book as a chargen option with the notation that its going to be a problem. As mentioned before I had one player who was disabled who wanted to play a disabled character who was for all intents and purposes not disabled through various magical workarounds. The character was created normally with no bonus points.
That's cool, Omega. Could you say more about what the chargen entry was in your book?
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: Stephen Tannhauser on August 20, 2020, 01:55:35 pm
Quote from: The Exploited.;1145713
A person who wishes to play a cripple should also be willing to make some sacrifices to the group and not be a dick either.

Exactly. As noted above, wanting to play a disadvantage without being at a disadvantage compared to the group (or refusing to admit that the PC may thereby become a dangerous disadvantage to the group) is the problem, because it's trying to eat one's cake and still have it.

Quote
The guys I generally play with are all pretty cool. So, you'd not get any one person screwing the group dynamic up.

The key there is your group is all already operating in established trust and good faith with one another. Thus the absolute axiomatic error of making such ideas about a political ideal of "representation" -- because that destroys good faith by assuming it's absent to begin with.

Quote
In a high-fantasy 5e setting you could get a floating magical chair thingey. But not in a low-magic or gritty setting.

From which we can get the general principle: Yes, a player who wants to make managing a solution to a PC's personal difficulty part of his game can sometimes be accommodated... but that solution has to work as a viable part of the chosen game, just like everything else, especially if it's meant to be a long-term element of it.

As with all other forms of entertainment, the game has to come before the message, whatever the message.
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: Pat on August 20, 2020, 02:43:05 pm
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser;1145716
Exactly. As noted above, wanting to play a disadvantage without being at a disadvantage compared to the group (or refusing to admit that the PC may thereby become a dangerous disadvantage to the group) is the problem, because it's trying to eat one's cake and still have it.
Playing a disadvantage is eating cake?

Why does it have to be a disadvantage? If you have a magic wheelchair in GURPS that compensates for your disability with no more limitations than working legs, it should be net 0 points. If it's a game like D&D, there aren't even any rules for something like that. It could just be an alternate way of getting around, neither advantage nor disadvantage. It won't fit in every world, but that can be said about anything.
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: Zalman on August 20, 2020, 06:03:10 pm
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser;1145707
To look at the other side of it, I can imagine somebody with an impairment in real life starting to find it really painful playing characters who don't share it. Sometimes forgetting one's problems temporarily only makes having to remember them again all the worse.


To that point, we are all disabled with respect to the fantasy characters of our imagination. Personally, I find it terribly painful to recall that I can't throw fireballs, and have less than 18/00 strength. Still, I'm not sure I'd want to play a powerless wizard or feeble fighter in an RPG as a means of remedying that situation.
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: Stephen Tannhauser on August 20, 2020, 06:41:37 pm
Quote from: Zalman;1145742
I find it terribly painful to recall that I can't throw fireballs, and have less than 18/00 strength.

Likewise. But nobody else around me in real life has those capacities either. There is a difference.

EDIT: I will walk back the snarkiness of the above and concede that I do understand your point; like I said back on page 1, all RPGing is about wish fulfillment to some degree, so I see nothing wrong with anyone else's in itself. But there's also a difference between healthy and unhealthy extremes of wish fulfillment fantasy, and it can be easier (which is not to say it's guaranteed by any means) for it to become unhealthy if it's for a real, normal capacity that one is exceptional in lacking.
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: RollingBones on August 21, 2020, 01:02:54 am
If the magical wheelchair is a full replacement for legs, and completely negates any disability, doesn't it then stop being representative of said disability, and therefore become just a redundant bit of appearance fluff? As if, for some weird reason of identity, the character wanders around casting a permanent illusion of being in a wheelchair?

If we're already going that far, why not just say that this magical chair, which incurs no disadvantages and has no effect on gameplay, just happens to look exactly like a common ambulant pair of legs.

I'd argue that if the purpose of the chair specifically is representation of paraplegics in D&D, the character *must* suffer some disadvantage associated with the chair. Otherwise, whatever it is they're after, it isn't representation.

All that said, I have zero issue if someone wants to play a paraplegic character in a fantasy setting. Since there's so many more fun and practical ways for them to get around than in a chair. Anything from spider constructs, to something like Thunderdome's Masterblaster or GoT's Hodor. Chewy carrying C3PO also comes to mind. Why not tied to the back of a trained animal or familiar? Why would you want a wheelchair, when you could be riding a wolf?!

On the one hand, it's a fantasy realm, we can make anything work. On the other hand, if we can make anything work, why in hell do you want a wheel chair?


EDIT - I don't know why or when I started imagining this theoretical disabled character as a gnome magic user, but I obviously did. It'd certainly be more practical.
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: Pat on August 21, 2020, 03:11:04 am
Quote from: RollingBones;1145774
If the magical wheelchair is a full replacement for legs, and completely negates any disability, doesn't it then stop being representative of said disability, and therefore become just a redundant bit of appearance fluff? As if, for some weird reason of identity, the character wanders around casting a permanent illusion of being in a wheelchair?

Because a wish-fulfillment fantasy isn't about becoming someone entirely new. It's about being you, but better. And being restricted to a wheelchair can be a pretty significant part of someone's identify. Taking away the wheelchair can make a character feel less like them. So they keep the wheelchair, but come up with fantastic ways that it's no longer a hindrance.
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: RollingBones on August 21, 2020, 04:27:53 am
So this whole saga is just about using D&D to provide specific wish-fulfillments that support player identities?

I misinterpreted that the mission was representation. My mistake.

I'm not sure the average player seeks to create fantasy versions of themselves in RPGs. People regularly play characters of different genders, species, abilities, even flaws and disabilities; rarely do any but the newest players run fantasy versions of themselves, or seek to create a character that feels like them.

If that's the game that the GM is running, sure why not, but that sounds like a very specific type of game. D&D could certainly be used as a platform for that, and in that context I don't see what objection anyone could have. It kind of reminds me of the old D&D cartoon.

I don't want to read into anything beyond what's intended, but if the game is supposed to be therapeutic, I don't think the average gaming table is an appropriate environment.
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: LiferGamer on August 21, 2020, 07:46:30 am
Those of you who are being disingenuous about what the hell the big deal is, I'll play along and give benefit of the doubt:

It's like Paizo's bullshit declaration in PF2 about trannies... if you got a group that has a need for something like this, you'll realize it and you'll figure it out with your group.  The corporations and the creators shoving it in the game are doing it to literally show how compassionate they are and some of them are secretly or openly fetishizing.

It being an article just out in the wild on the internet?  No big deal but we're all expecting it to become an official supplement or rolled into their new diversity plus player's handbook.

There's some bad blood out there in a lot of you go at each other as much out of habit as anything else, and I'm grateful we have a forum where this occurs I don't want it shut down.

This horse has been beat to death and if you hadn't looked at Grim Jim's video, he gives a handful of suggestions at the end for games where it might work, and a lot of reasons why it wouldn't in DND.
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: RollingBones on August 21, 2020, 08:54:38 am
Wheelchair or no, I'm already writing up my rough living, hard drinking, mastiff riding, Gnomish wizard. Hamlet Halfleg. He may be a small creature, but he's medium where it counts.
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: Omega on August 21, 2020, 09:41:33 am
Quote from: jhkim;1145714
Sorry, I missed out on the previous threads, and I just now did a web search to find the D&D wheelchair article. This isn't to you, Omega - but it would be helpful if people were to provide links if they're making reference to a specific other discussion or article.


That's cool, Omega. Could you say more about what the chargen entry was in your book?

https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?42337-Combat-Wheelchairs-in-the-Ministry-of-Truth-(WotC-retroactive-book-revision) (https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?42337-Combat-Wheelchairs-in-the-Ministry-of-Truth-(WotC-retroactive-book-revision))

And another, I cant find.

As for how I approached it. Totally abstract, The player could gain some points for being handicapped and had to define it. More points based on just how debilitating it was. And a note that it was going to be a problem. And that buying it off would likely take some effort and RP points to find a cure. And later in the book an example of a handicapped character that was created normally because the character had a workaround that negated being handicapped. Another approach possible was to take a handicap for extra chargen points then use those points to buy an enhanced other sense to counter it in some way.

That allowed for alot of different approaches if a player wanted to go that route. It also allowed handicapped players to explore workarounds without getting too far into unknown territory if they preferred that.
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: Omega on August 21, 2020, 09:51:14 am
Quote from: RollingBones;1145808
Wheelchair or no, I'm already writing up my rough living, hard drinking, mastiff riding, Gnomish wizard. Hamlet Halfleg. He may be a small creature, but he's medium where it counts.

When I saw the mechanical defender option and other tricks the Artificer could do in 5e D&D one of the first things we bounced around was could this be made into a sort of sentient conveyance and other fun things.
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: Pat on August 21, 2020, 10:00:28 am
Quote from: RollingBones;1145789
So this whole saga is just about using D&D to provide specific wish-fulfillments that support player identities?

No. I just provided one explanation that fits the "representative of said disability" angle you were discussing. I speak for no one else in the thread, and my personal preferences would fall more along the lines "is it fun?".
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: RollingBones on August 21, 2020, 11:04:07 am
Quote from: Pat;1145819
No. I just provided one explanation that fits the "representative of said disability" angle you were discussing. I speak for no one else in the thread, and my personal preferences would fall more along the lines "is it fun?".


100% agree, it all just comes down to "is it fun".

What I was trying to say about being "representative of disability", is that if the wheelchair totally negates the disability, it isn't, by its very definition, representative or inclusive of disability.

If the disabled character isn't disabled, then where's the representation?

It's just cosmetic fluff, with a massive pile of mechanics and excuses to try and make the fluff into something more. Worse than that, it's unnecessary fluff that has been specifically written in service of an ideology. Not in the name of fun.

I don't think anyone's really totally against a player (ambulant or otherwise) running a paraplegic character in their games. But many GMs will be against having something as anachronistic as a 'combat wheelchair', instead of the many creative solutions that are internally consistent with the established lore.

Honestly, I couldn't care less what people put in their own games, but it irks me when I see people demanding works of fiction (D&D) conform to a certain moral standard. Especially when that system already encourages people to make up their own games and include whatever homebrew they want.

If it's really all about the chair, then by it's basic nature, D&D has always included combat wheel chairs in potential. There's never been any rule blocking anyone from saying, hey, my character's in a wheelchair; or a GM saying, guess what guys, in this one-shot, you're all wheelchair bound barbarians. If it's ever happened, it'll have been rare, mostly because it's a bit stupid considering all the creative options at hand. But hey, it's always been possible, and it didn't need this recent social media posturing to make it so.

This isn't a case of just making a cool thing because your wheelchair rolling gaming buddy thinks it'll be a laugh. This is a person going out of their way to say RPGs are inherently wrong-fun unless they are pre-modified to be extra inclusive, because she feels the implied total inclusivity afforded by the OGL is inadequate. It's almost as if she thinks GMs are too stupid to enable wheelchair users to maximise their fun unless it's in the RAW? Wizards of the Coast can't stop anyone putting whatever they want in any of their games. If anything, they encourage it.

The whole combat wheelchair project stinks of virtue signalling in the name of kofi and patreon $$$.
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: Pat on August 21, 2020, 11:39:16 am
Quote from: RollingBones;1145826
What I was trying to say about being "representative of disability", is that if the wheelchair totally negates the disability, it isn't, by its very definition, representative or inclusive of disability.

If the disabled character isn't disabled, then where's the representation?
I look at it from the standpoint of the individual. If the player thinks the character represents them, whether it's wish-fullfillment, a desire to explore something different from themselves, or just comedy, that's real representation. "Disability" isn't a person, so whether or not they're "represented" doesn't matter.
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: RollingBones on August 21, 2020, 12:06:16 pm
Fair enough. I mean, I disagree, but I see your point, and we'd just be arguing semantics.

It doesn't change that nothing was ever stopping any player from creating a character that they think represents them. No rule said "no wheelchairs." The rules did say (and I paraphrase)... and whatever else you can come up with.

Instead, now there are people on her twitter asking if it's OK if they, as non-disabled players, dare play a disabled character and use her wheelchair. I mean seriously, they need some random activist's permission before playing a character amongst their own friends?

I maintain the whole thing was a red herring. By making a scene about how bad the lack of wheelchairs is, then marketing her solution, she's raised her profile, and doubtless raised some nice cash from her Kofi and Patreon.
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: Pat on August 21, 2020, 12:15:08 pm
I understand that definition, I just reject it.

And I'm completely unaware of any Twitter discussion. I'm just responding to a post on a message board that has a problem with pork derivatives.
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: RollingBones on August 21, 2020, 12:25:44 pm
Quote from: Pat;1145842
I understand that definition, I just reject it.

And I'm completely unaware of any Twitter discussion. I'm just responding to a post on a message board that has a problem with pork derivatives.

I was unaware of the twitter discussion too, until I had to go look up what all the fuss was about. Which meant, in the name of due diligence, I had to read her posts, then read the actual documents she's spruiking. Honestly, I wish I hadn't. It's time I'll never get back.
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: Pat on August 21, 2020, 12:28:19 pm
Quote from: RollingBones;1145846
I was unaware of the twitter discussion too, until I had to go look up what all the fuss was about. Which meant, in the name of due diligence, I had to read her posts, then read the actual documents she's spruiking. Honestly, I wish I hadn't. It's time I'll never get back.
I still have no idea what you're talking about. Are you saying that OP's post was inspired by Twitter somehow?
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: jhkim on August 21, 2020, 12:44:49 pm
Quote from: Pat
I just provided one explanation that fits the "representative of said disability" angle you were discussing. I speak for no one else in the thread, and my personal preferences would fall more along the lines "is it fun?".
Quote from: RollingBones
100% agree, it all just comes down to "is it fun".

What I was trying to say about being "representative of disability", is that if the wheelchair totally negates the disability, it isn't, by its very definition, representative or inclusive of disability.

If the disabled character isn't disabled, then where's the representation?
Quote from: Pat;1145833
I look at it from the standpoint of the individual. If the player thinks the character represents them, whether it's wish-fullfillment, a desire to explore something different from themselves, or just comedy, that's real representation. "Disability" isn't a person, so whether or not they're "represented" doesn't matter.
When I mentioned the topic to my son, he said he'd already heard about it through his mother, who uses a wheelchair. She apparently said she was totally buying the combat wheelchair miniatures, for what it's worth. As I see it, there are people who identify as "I'm someone who use a wheelchair" rather than "I'm a victim who's lesser than other people", and for them, it's not important that wheelchair users be less capable.

As you say, the point is whether some people have fun with it. It seems like some people enjoy the concept - so they're welcome to use it, and others are welcome to not use it.
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 21, 2020, 04:51:19 pm
Like I have said before, for this to work you need to change the world, and that's their goal, to control how you play. If you don't accommodate them you're an Istophobe of course. (https://twitter.com/feltheleb/status/1296248264443015168)

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4781[/ATTACH]
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: RollingBones on August 21, 2020, 07:21:49 pm
The underlying issue isn't individual games house-ruling a wheelchair. It's not even, 'how would wheel chairs in D&D work'.

This is going to sound obtusely academic, but I'm being trying to be specific with my words: The underlying issue is the assumption that TTRPGs are inherently ableist and discriminatory if they do not explicitly include solutions for cosmetic replication of real world paraphernalia inherent to the self perception of marginalised persons.

My interpretation has been formed by reading the work of the designer who has spearheaded the Combat Wheelchair, and going over the rules and descriptions she has produced. The designer's output, as far as I can tell, is largely from her twitter feed, and that is certainly how it has circulated social media. So yes, almost all discussion of the Combat Wheelchair in particular can be traced back to this designer's twitter posts.

It's clearly wrong to say 'no game anywhere can or should have wheelchairs', that'd be oppressive, stupid, and objectively incorrect. Any game can have wheelchairs, and that's kind of the point. They always could. Wheelchairs were never explicitly excluded. I strongly disagree with the accusations underlying the Combat Wheelchair's development.

I can say objectively that replicating real world wheelchairs for adventurers is incongruous, and that in the fantasy world in question, many other creative solutions are already afforded by the existing rules. I can also objectively say that creating a complicated solution to introduce something that looks like a wheelchair and simultaneously negates every non-cosmetic implication of a wheelchair is inelegant in the least.

In game, the Combat Wheelchair as written is an outrageously roundabout and complex solution to what is really a rather simple problem.

But it's not an 'in game' problem that it's seeking to solve. It is seeking to solve a manufactured problem. It appears to me that the designer's purpose in publishing the Combat Wheelchair is concretisation of the accusation that TTRPGs are discriminatory. Further to that, the implication that someone must fight this discrimination. The person making this fight for justice on the behalf of marginalised disabled persons is the game designer, and [sarcasm] won't you please donate to her patreon [/sarcasm].

I do like the minis, I think they're kind of badarsed. There's definitely appeal there, but the minis don't come with a side order of false accusation and misrepresentation for the purposes of virtue signalling and profit. Which the "Combat Wheelchair" does.

We all agree that the purpose of roleplaying is to have fun. TTRPGS are all about shenanigans.

We disagree whether the Combat Wheelchair has been introduced in the interests of fun, or for politically derived profit.
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: Omega on August 22, 2020, 12:37:11 am
Quote from: RollingBones;1145826
100% agree, it all just comes down to "is it fun".

What I was trying to say about being "representative of disability", is that if the wheelchair totally negates the disability, it isn't, by its very definition, representative or inclusive of disability.

If the disabled character isn't disabled, then where's the representation?


Um... are you really that dense... or are you just trolling? Both?
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: RollingBones on August 22, 2020, 02:16:46 am
Quote from: Omega;1145962
Um... are you really that dense... or are you just trolling? Both?


I guess I must just be that dense.

I see a distinct difference between "representing disability", with it's associated complications, and what is effectively a cosmetic option for a wheelchair.

In my personal opinion (which isn't worth a damn in anyone else's world, and I'm providing just to clarify my position), one celebrates triumph over adversity, the other trivialises it.

I get that saying, "hey, that hero looks like me," can be empowering. But I don't think (personally again) introducing a cosmetic artefact which disregards the complications of disability is what I'd describe as "representative" in any nuanced sense of the word. YMMV. Which is why I didn't think it was worth arguing semantics.

By way of contrast, if a character took the 'blinded' condition whenever not wearing *Combat Goggles*, but they never removed those goggles, I wouldn't say that character was "representative" of blind people in the real world. Yet if a character's vision were limited to Blindsight 20ft, I'd say they go at least some way toward being representative. Probably as far as is practical for most TTRPG tables.

Of course we could all have this arse about. The more I think about it, the more I wonder if the original purpose wasn't about character portrayal at all. Maybe it was just about wish fulfilment for a magical better wheelchair than we can make in the real world. That would actually make a lot more sense, reading the way it's been specced. That'd be a whole different kettle of fish, and if it's true it's a shame the ableism and representation issues got attached to it.
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: LiferGamer on August 22, 2020, 09:28:32 am
In short I see three broad stands on this here, and we're going in circles:
I'm pretty sure we're all with just running slightly nuanced versions of one of those arguments, with some are being misrepresented as

- Hating disabled players.
or
- Forcing me to have this crap in my game.

Best summary I can come up with.
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: HappyDaze on August 22, 2020, 10:30:09 am
Quote from: LiferGamer;1145984
In short I see three broad stands on this here, and we're going in circles:
  • People that are ok with disabled players, and possibly characters, that recognize the wheelchair is the worst solution in D&D.
  • People that are ok with disabled players, but think disabled characters are a non-starter.
  • People that would freely allow disabled characters, but then remove the disability for game purposes making it just cosmetic.
I'm pretty sure we're all with just running slightly nuanced versions of one of those arguments, with some are being misrepresented as

- Hating disabled players.
or
- Forcing me to have this crap in my game.

Best summary I can come up with.

You're forgetting:
Whatever. Hasn't come up in my gaming, and I don't anticipate that it will. If it does, I'll base my decision on the specifics and people involved without giving two shits about some greater meaning behind it all.
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: GnomeWorks on August 22, 2020, 11:22:38 am
I always kind of assumed that a disabled player would prefer to not play a disabled character. What with gaming being an escapist fantasy, and all that.

Regardless, I don't see a band of adventurers being okay with bringing a wheelchair-bound individual with them. That seems like just too much of a liability, in my mind, to the adventuring life. People in wheelchairs in reality have to be accommodated for in rather extreme ways, and I don't see how a naturally-formed cave system would be accessible to them in any meaningful sense.

IMC, this is moot because the tech level is a lot higher than in a typical setting. The dude with a sword may very well have a cybernetic hand, and if we're at that point, I think the typical answer to paraplegia would be some kind of cybernetics to fix that. Or stick 'em in a suit of power armor.

Or, y'know, some kind of magic to heal it.

It's fantasy. Part of that is that there can exist fantastical solutions to some of the real world's shittier problems. I don't know of anyone who is physically disabled in some fashion who wouldn't work towards a magical resolution to their problem if such a thing actually existed.
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: Stephen Tannhauser on August 22, 2020, 12:06:17 pm
Quote from: LiferGamer;1145984
I'm pretty sure we're all with just running slightly nuanced versions of one of those arguments, with some are being misrepresented as

- Hating disabled players.
or
- Forcing me to have this crap in my game.

I'd toss in one minor distinguo that for me it's less about being "forced" to have it in a game and more about the moral browbeating on how it should be included if at all, including the implicit assumption that the players who want to play it should be deferred to as the highest priority, even at the expense of the game. (Making sure everyone is happy is a priority, but it isn't the highest priority if the alternative is ruining the game.)
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: GeekyBugle on August 22, 2020, 02:25:53 pm
Quote from: LiferGamer;1145984
In short I see three broad stands on this here, and we're going in circles:
  • People that are ok with disabled players, and possibly characters, that recognize the wheelchair is the worst solution in D&D.
  • People that are ok with disabled players, but think disabled characters are a non-starter.
  • People that would freely allow disabled characters, but then remove the disability for game purposes making it just cosmetic.
I'm pretty sure we're all with just running slightly nuanced versions of one of those arguments, with some are being misrepresented as

- Hating disabled players.
or
- Forcing me to have this crap in my game.

Best summary I can come up with.

I'm pretty much at 1 with the added caveat that I would even allow said "solution" but will not change the world to accommodate for it.
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: Omega on August 22, 2020, 04:42:31 pm
Quote from: GnomeWorks;1145994
I always kind of assumed that a disabled player would prefer to not play a disabled character. What with gaming being an escapist fantasy, and all that.

From experience. It varies a fair bit.

Some will do just like other players and essentially play themselves. Within limits of the system or DM allowances.

Some play the exact opposite and their characters are totally not disabled.

And some play somewhere in between those two. Such as my, and others, various examples of workarounds. Or their character just isnt as disabled as the player is. And so on. I know a few who like to explore how a setting would allow them to overcome a disability by some means. Or how under the tight circumstances or setting a disability becomes an advantage. Similar approach to a disabled player playing a non-disabled character.

Then there are a few edge cases, myself included, where a player might have a disabled character because they are unsure of playing otherwise. Or it is what they are used to. For some like myself it is simply a factor of not having a frame of reference.
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: Omega on August 22, 2020, 04:58:23 pm
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser;1145995
I'd toss in one minor distinguo that for me it's less about being "forced" to have it in a game and more about the moral browbeating on how it should be included if at all, including the implicit assumption that the players who want to play it should be deferred to as the highest priority, even at the expense of the game. (Making sure everyone is happy is a priority, but it isn't the highest priority if the alternative is ruining the game.)

Yeah that is where resistance can start. Not usually as severe as the reaction to force. But it can certainly grate on the nerves depending on the situation.

It is similar to any other situation where a player wants to do X that either isnt covered in the rules, or does not fit the campaign or setting even if allowable. How flexible the system or DM is will be the telling factor. Along with how reasonable or not a request is.
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: jhkim on August 22, 2020, 05:44:16 pm
Quote from: LiferGamer;1145984
In short I see three broad stands on this here, and we're going in circles:
  • People that are ok with disabled players, and possibly characters, that recognize the wheelchair is the worst solution in D&D.
  • People that are ok with disabled players, but think disabled characters are a non-starter.
  • People that would freely allow disabled characters, but then remove the disability for game purposes making it just cosmetic.
I'm pretty sure we're all with just running slightly nuanced versions of one of those arguments, with some are being misrepresented as

- Hating disabled players.
or
- Forcing me to have this crap in my game.

Best summary I can come up with.

I don't think I fit with any of your three. I am OK with both disabled players and disabled characters, and it's on a case-by-case basis whether a character disability is a cosmetic feature (like Daredevil being blind) or whether it is a real game limitation (like Charles Xavier requiring a wheelchair). Previously I gave examples earlier of similar characters from previous campaigns. One of them (modern-day superpowers) was largely cosmetic wheelchair use because he could use his electrical powers to use his legs for limited periods. One of them (the Alphas game) had a tiring condition that was a serious in-game limitation where he walked with a cane and had to frequently stop, but he also had an awesome power.

Mostly, I find the arguments for position #2 to be hollow - because a lot of them assert things that don't match with my experience in games.


Quote from: GnomeWorks;1145994
Regardless, I don't see a band of adventurers being okay with bringing a wheelchair-bound individual with them. That seems like just too much of a liability, in my mind, to the adventuring life. People in wheelchairs in reality have to be accommodated for in rather extreme ways, and I don't see how a naturally-formed cave system would be accessible to them in any meaningful sense.
This is a straightforward issue of game balance. In D&D, adventuring parties regularly bring along a 98-pound weak bookworm, even if they don't have the physical skills to keep up with others in the party. The weakling probably needs help climbing over a wall, and might even need lifting at some point. But they bring corresponding strengths to the party because of their magical abilities. In military terms, they could be thought of as specialists or artillery.

A character without the use of their legs would need to have other abilities to compensate. Once they have enough other other abilities, then they would be a balanced member of the party. If they have even more abilities, they would become overpowered.
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: Spinachcat on August 22, 2020, 07:49:48 pm
This entire "magic wheelchair = disability representation" harkens back to the point buy arguments regarding Disadvantages in games like Hero and GURPS. AKA, if a disadvantage doesn't actually disadvantage the character, its not a disadvantage.

Under SJW ideology, a disability can't be a disadvantage because that's "ableist". Thus, any disabled character must be equal, preferably BETTER than any able character. It's an offshoot of the cringey "handicapable" nonsense from the 90s.


Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser;1145995
I'd toss in one minor distinguo that for me it's less about being "forced" to have it in a game and more about the moral browbeating on how it should be included if at all, including the implicit assumption that the players who want to play it should be deferred to as the highest priority, even at the expense of the game.


SJWs don't need to force when threatening is so much more effective because the hobby (and nation) is full of weaklings.

"OBEY or we'll call you an -ist!!" is enough to silence the masses and ostracize most of those who oppose them.  


Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser;1145995
(Making sure everyone is happy is a priority, but it isn't the highest priority if the alternative is ruining the game.)


I'm the Game Master. Not the Happy Master. Players are responsible for their own fun.

If someone wants to play a disabled character, that's fine. Their disability is going to cause disadvantages and their PC might not live long enough to afford the magic/tech to nullify those disadvantages.
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: Mishihari on August 23, 2020, 05:11:06 am
I'm fine with a player who wants a character with whatever disability in my game.  The caveat is that I'm not going to change the game-fiction of my world to accommodate them.  Choices and differences have real consequences.  If not, what's the point in having them?  

If the game is traveller and the PC has a grav-belt, great, that fits.  If he's in a gritty low-fantasy game and in a wheel chair, there will be challenges.  If you don't want the challenges, then don't make that character.  

I'm not going to go out of my way to target the character's weakness, but there are going to be problems.  To quote Po from Kung Fu Panda, "Ah, my old enemy, stairs..."  If the party is carrying the handicapped PC and his wheelchair down the stairs and the wandering monster wanders on by, it's going to be tough.  I don't pull my punches as a GM, so the handicapped PC will probably die before his comrades.  When it's time for his next character, the player can either learn from his experience or not, it's up to him.
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: SHARK on August 23, 2020, 05:38:41 am
Quote from: Spinachcat;1146034
This entire "magic wheelchair = disability representation" harkens back to the point buy arguments regarding Disadvantages in games like Hero and GURPS. AKA, if a disadvantage doesn't actually disadvantage the character, its not a disadvantage.

Under SJW ideology, a disability can't be a disadvantage because that's "ableist". Thus, any disabled character must be equal, preferably BETTER than any able character. It's an offshoot of the cringey "handicapable" nonsense from the 90s.




SJWs don't need to force when threatening is so much more effective because the hobby (and nation) is full of weaklings.

"OBEY or we'll call you an -ist!!" is enough to silence the masses and ostracize most of those who oppose them.  




I'm the Game Master. Not the Happy Master. Players are responsible for their own fun.

If someone wants to play a disabled character, that's fine. Their disability is going to cause disadvantages and their PC might not live long enough to afford the magic/tech to nullify those disadvantages.

Greetings!

THE HAPPY MASTER!!!!:D

Exactly. Everyone knows that handicapped characters are heavily disadvantaged. That's why no one typically wants to have a character in a fucking wheelchair or being fucking blind. No, there's no cybernetic bowl of cornflakes with that. You have no legs, or your blind, or paralyzed on the whole left side of your body, guess what?

Life is hard.:D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: SHARK on August 23, 2020, 05:43:39 am
Quote from: Mishihari;1146093
I'm fine with a player who wants a character with whatever disability in my game.  The caveat is that I'm not going to change the game-fiction of my world to accommodate them.  Choices and differences have real consequences.  If not, what's the point in having them?  

If the game is traveller and the PC has a grav-belt, great, that fits.  If he's in a gritty low-fantasy game and in a wheel chair, there will be challenges.  If you don't want the challenges, then don't make that character.  

I'm not going to go out of my way to target the character's weakness, but there are going to be problems.  To quote Po from Kung Fu Panda, "Ah, my old enemy, stairs..."  If the party is carrying the handicapped PC and his wheelchair down the stairs and the wandering monster wanders on by, it's going to be tough.  I don't pull my punches as a GM, so the handicapped PC will probably die before his comrades.  When it's time for his next character, the player can either learn from his experience or not, it's up to him.

Greetings!

Damn right, my friend! Wheelchair Bob gets eaten the fuck up, first! I find it hilarious all these people want to make a severely handicapped character somehow survivable in an adventuring environment. Forget that nonsense. Wheelchair Bob or Blind Betty needs to be hanging out in the Library or a special community center--not attempting to crawl through ancient labyrinths deep underground, and fighting monsters in dungeons.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: Mishihari on August 23, 2020, 06:12:04 am
Quote from: SHARK;1146098
Wheelchair Bob or Blind Betty needs to be hanging out in the Library or a special community center--not attempting to crawl through ancient labyrinths deep underground, and fighting monsters in dungeons.

To be fair, I've seen examples of handicapped characters that managed to be pretty awesome adventurers in fiction, and I would not mind such in my game.  If the player is smart enough and the character is tough enough to make it work, then more power to them.  

One example is Cho-Hag in one of Eddings' books.  His legs were damaged by something like polio, but on his horse he's equal to any fighter.  That doesn't match my experience riding, but whatever, I'm certainly not enough of an expert to say it's not possible.  Or the guy with no legs from the first Bourne movie.  He and Jason fight and Jason kills him, but it's a close thing.  Bourne's girlfriend is like WTH, man?  But he tells her "You saw an old handicapped man.  I saw the most dangerous man in Europe.  If I hadn't killed him I would be dead."  Or something like that.

The point is that they had disabilities with real consequences and managed to be badass anyway.  If the author or screenwriter had waved his magic wand and removed the consequences of their disabilities then their success would be lame rather than awesome. Similarly in my game, if a PC has a disability with real consequences and manages to kick ass anyway, that's awesome.  I'm happy to give them the chance to do that.  He'll probably die instead, but whatever, it's a game.  I'm not going to take away his chance to be awesome by removing the consequences of the disability.  And if he fails, I'll try to make sure he gets a good death - glorious, hilarious, or whatever seems right at the moment.
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: jhkim on August 23, 2020, 08:53:40 am
Quote from: Mishihari;1146093
I'm fine with a player who wants a character with whatever disability in my game.  The caveat is that I'm not going to change the game-fiction of my world to accommodate them.  Choices and differences have real consequences.  If not, what's the point in having them?
OK, but there's a difference between *character creation* and *game-play*. I've played a lot of game systems where hindrances or disadvantages gain some additional points to the player -- like Savage Worlds, World of Darkness, GURPS, or HERO. In game systems where there are no point rewards for hindrances, then unsurprisingly players tend to not have any such hindrances.

In a broader conceptual framework, this is a question of system mastery. Some GMs prefer to reward players for using the rules to design the most powerful character possible. Character creation is a competition, and if a player creates a suboptimal character, then that's the player's fault and they have to live with it. Personally, as a GM, I'm all about challenging players *during the game* -- but I generally prefer character creation to not be a competition. I don't want players competing to choose the most powerful options in the system. Instead, I try to work with the players so that the characters are roughly balanced at the start, and then challenge them to use those characters the best *in the game*.

As I see it, making the characters roughly balanced at the start isn't coddling -- it's enabling more real competition.
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: Razor 007 on August 24, 2020, 11:22:40 pm
So.... Assuming that a Combat Wheelchair exists in medieval fantasy; can you imagine it's scarcity and worth in gold pieces?  Perhaps a genius constructed one for his disabled child?  It's pretty much an artifact; a one of a kind item.  Can you imagine the cost?
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: jhkim on August 25, 2020, 01:34:17 am
Quote from: Razor 007;1146331
So.... Assuming that a Combat Wheelchair exists in medieval fantasy; can you imagine it's scarcity and worth in gold pieces?  Perhaps a genius constructed one for his disabled child?  It's pretty much an artifact; a one of a kind item.  Can you imagine the cost?
Obviously, it will vary depending on the game world. In most worlds, animated constructs don't seem that rare. For example, the Artificer class for 5E includes a "Steel Defender" feature for the Battle Smith that gives the PC a speed 40 construct. My son is GMing a campaign where one of the PCs is a gnome artificer who rides his Steel Defender pretty much all the time. (Since he's small and it's medium-size, they can fit anywhere a human can.) That's better than a combat wheelchair, and it's a standard class feature for 3rd level.

I'd say it should be somewhat easier to create than animated armor (which is a standard creature) or a steel defender (which is a standard class feature). It can move, but it doesn't have it's own mind. Obviously, any new creation is subject to whatever ruling the GM makes. But I don't see that it's inherently all that magically difficult.
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: Mishihari on August 25, 2020, 06:32:57 am
Quote from: jhkim;1146115
OK, but there's a difference between *character creation* and *game-play*. I've played a lot of game systems where hindrances or disadvantages gain some additional points to the player -- like Savage Worlds, World of Darkness, GURPS, or HERO. In game systems where there are no point rewards for hindrances, then unsurprisingly players tend to not have any such hindrances.

In a broader conceptual framework, this is a question of system mastery. Some GMs prefer to reward players for using the rules to design the most powerful character possible. Character creation is a competition, and if a player creates a suboptimal character, then that's the player's fault and they have to live with it. Personally, as a GM, I'm all about challenging players *during the game* -- but I generally prefer character creation to not be a competition. I don't want players competing to choose the most powerful options in the system. Instead, I try to work with the players so that the characters are roughly balanced at the start, and then challenge them to use those characters the best *in the game*.

As I see it, making the characters roughly balanced at the start isn't coddling -- it's enabling more real competition.

I can see the validity of your idea in the theoretical sense, but in the practical sense, doing it is going to be nigh impossible.  I believe there's a consensus that advantage/disadvantage point system don't work well, the main objection being that a PC built with large disadvantages usually eventually finds a trick to negate them, then he has a large advantage over the other character.  The wheelchair guy is an extreme case of this.  He faces inability to navigate many types of terrain, including common ones like stair and ladders; even forest trails are going to be tough - I can speak from related experience since I've pushed and carried hiking strollers over quite a few roots, rocks, and steps on rough trails.  He also faces limited very limited mobility in combat, especially if the terrain is not perfect.  There probably should be combat penalties as well, since his ability to, frex, dodge an arrow is limited.  He's going to need a lot of advantages to overcome this.  If he manages to negate his disadvantage, then he's going to be massively more powerful than the other PCs.  That's certainly not fair.  Even worse, the disadvantage is situational:  it's a lot more limiting on a difficult terrain.  So even if you manage to set the advantage so that on average it's equal to the disadvantage, in certain encounters wheelchair guy will be much stronger than his compatriots and and in others, he will be much weaker.  That does not sound like fun for everyone.  And unless you totally negate his disadvantages (which begs the question of why make him in the first place) eventually he's going to hit a the perfect storm where his disadvantages line up with the strengths of the opposition, and he's going to die.

Another objection is that you're negating the player's choice.  Choosing to be wheelchair guy does not just mean that you look like a guy in a wheelchair.  Ask anyone who is in one.  It means you have to work significantly harder to do some of the things your friends are doing, and in the case of several people I know, you develop mental toughness and related positive traits to cope.  If you choose to play wheelchair guy, you're choosing that experience.  Removing the disadvantage or adding compensating advantages eliminates this.
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: RandyB on August 25, 2020, 08:34:02 am
Quote from: Razor 007;1146331
So.... Assuming that a Combat Wheelchair exists in medieval fantasy; can you imagine it's scarcity and worth in gold pieces?  Perhaps a genius constructed one for his disabled child?  It's pretty much an artifact; a one of a kind item.  Can you imagine the cost?


So it's exactly the kind of thing a snowflake PC should have from the very beginning of the game. Because special.
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: tenbones on August 27, 2020, 10:21:27 am
Cybernetics.

One of the conceits of cyberpunk is people *willingly* removing their limbs because they're *better* than having meat-limbs. If you're going to gloss over whatever that means without mechanical realities - meta or otherwise, what is the point?

In D&D since 2e you've had options like this. In the Forgotten Realms (which is pretty much kitchen-sink D&D) - Drow have had "cyberlimbs" in the Drow of the Underdark. There is *zero* reason why Priests of Gond couldn't do the same thing. Hell, by the standards established DECADES ago - you could make the case that magitech power-suits or full-body conversions could have happened.

The idea that wheelchairs would be a thing in D&D, as Pundit and everyone else with a shred of common-sense already knows, unless you *really* just wanted to sit in a wheelchair, for your PC, there is no reason to overtly do so. At least not in the sense that there are not many solutions to towards that would make such a condition temporary at best.

Which speaks for the real obvious reasons why this is even a thing...
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: Spinachcat on August 27, 2020, 07:35:12 pm
Anyone ever see a wheelchair move quickly side to side?

No, because it's a chair with wheels that rolls backward or forward, going to the left or right requires reorientation that is not quick. Thus, there is no dodging incoming attacks. Thus, foes have Advantage against these effectively prone targets.

Outside of the delusional freaks of Twatter, who is going to play a PC who's got Advantage against them 24/7?

Watch some paraplegic wheelchair sports. They're hardcore brave, very strong, totally dedicated and not going to survive melee combat with a black person, oops I meant, an orc.

Okay, maybe against Urkel Orc, but even Cardi-Borc and Beyorcnce will stabby stab them dead.
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: Warboss Squee on August 27, 2020, 08:39:36 pm
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1144571
That sounds as a comic book/novel/tv show/movie I would pay to see/read.


It was called Mantis and it only got half a season back in the 90's.
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: Omega on August 28, 2020, 04:24:21 am
I can see a wheelchair as being a temporary solution for an adventurer that has lost the ability to walk but still wants to adventure. Something that is simple and affordable till they can either find a cure or get a better conveyance. Its not a great solution. But its whats on hand for now and finding better could be the seed of a quest, or side quest.

I mean really. D&D is all about finding new ways to hammer square pegs into round holes and making lemonade from this chest of lemons you just found.
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: Franky on August 28, 2020, 10:47:53 pm
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser;1144569
Doing my usual blithe miss-the-point-completely gig, it occurs to me that you could make a fantastic RPG or literary hero out of a tragically paralyzed warrior given a magical suit of armour that allowed him to walk and fight again -- a suit of metal black as night, glinting blood red at the joints, animated by a dark supernatural force that demands its price from the wearer not in blood, but in tiny bits of soul and heart, wearing away one's humanity bit by bit . . . a suit that mysteriously, without warning, locks up in total immobility whenever the wearer comes too near a church, or a powerful cleric of Good, and which whispers . . . thoughts . . . to the wearer's mind whenever alone with innocents . . . .

As GURPS has pointed out in every edition, a disadvantage that isn't a disadvantage isn't worth anything. If it has a dramatic or rule relevance to the game, the most you can do is change how it disadvantages the PC, not the fact that it does.
 This Artifact (in the original D&D sense) needs a name and write-up.  Seriously.
Title: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: Omega on August 29, 2020, 09:57:02 am
This is part of why I leave out superhero settings and comics from these discussions as theres been ALOT of heroes and heroines going quite far back that were in one form or another disabled. But have some workaround.

The original Hourman is a good example. Someone who was blinded. But uses a serum that allows him to see. But only in darkness. Others being Daredevil and the Shade. Its also popped up at least twice in live action superhero shows. Personal favourite is Exo-Man about a scientist who is paralyzed from the legs down and unable to walk. And uses a power armour suit to walk. The other notable being Mantis. And since it pretty much is a superhero show. The Six-Million dollar Man series is another good example. Moreso in the original books. Another to a leser degree being Night Man who after an accident gains night vision, but much like Hourman is practically blinded in daylight. And numerous others. Silhouette from New Warriors is another paraplegic who gets about via crutches and teleport powers.
Title: Re: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: RPGPundit on September 05, 2020, 03:12:48 pm


The original Hourman is a good example. Someone who was blinded. But uses a serum that allows him to see. But only in darkness.


That wasn't Hourman (though Hourman was arguably a drug addict).
The blind superhero was Dr. Mid-Nite.  It wasn't a serum, if I recall, it was the same accident that made him blind gave him nightvision. In any situation where there's light he needs goggles to see.
When you mention Daredevil you're probably thinking of the Silver-Age Marvel Daredevil who was of course blind but had super-senses that made up for it.
But a better example might be the Golden Age Daredevil, who was a mute.



Title: Re: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: Svenhelgrim on September 06, 2020, 10:45:31 am

You know that in ADnD they had a spell called Tensers Floating Disk?  But somehow the real problem is making a Fantasy Wheelchair.


This!


It’s a level 1 spell, can carry 500 lbs, and lasts for 1 hour.  Plus it is a ritual so it won’t eat up a spell slot if you take the 10 mins to cast it.
Title: Re: Combat Wheelchairs and how to make them work in medieval settings.
Post by: Omega on September 06, 2020, 09:09:46 pm


The original Hourman is a good example. Someone who was blinded. But uses a serum that allows him to see. But only in darkness.


That wasn't Hourman (though Hourman was arguably a drug addict).
The blind superhero was Dr. Mid-Nite.  It wasn't a serum, if I recall, it was the same accident that made him blind gave him nightvision. In any situation where there's light he needs goggles to see.
Right. Meant Mid-Night.