Long time listener, first time caller...playing Traveller (the 1977 boxed set) and The Fantasy Trip (In the Labyrinth, Advanced Wizard, and Advanced Melee).
I have been lurking here for a while reading all the erudite discussion of RPGs and rules and mechanics. I don't feel especially qualified to comment on any of that stuff so I have refrained from registering until today. (I know what games I have enjoyed and which ones I don't care for, but I couldn't tell you why mechanic X is superior to mechanics Y and Z or whatever like you guys and gals like to debate.) I see a whole lot of discussion of various Dungeons and various Dragons. Are there any threads here about Classic Traveller and/or The Fantasy Trip? Or any good web sites I should check out?
You can always do a search for old threads on these topics. Necro some of them from the dead.
Or, hell, just start some threads yourself on these Rpgs. I'm a fan of both of them, and would like to see some more discussion.
Welcome aboard!!
We have lots of fans of both games on this site, especially Traveller.
What supplements do you use with your Traveller games?
For me, Citizens of the Imperium is my #1 supplement for Classic Trav and I've backed off of using Mercenary and High Guard for chargen.
Quote from: Spinachcat;958178Welcome aboard!!
What supplements do you use with your Traveller games?
For me, Citizens of the Imperium is my #1 supplement for Classic Trav and I've backed off of using Mercenary and High Guard for chargen.
Thanks.
Aside from Books 1-3 from the boxed set, I sometimes use some of the equipment from Book 4: Mercenary, but I don't use the character generation from that book as I personally find there to be "power creep" when compared with characters generated with Book 1. Plus I'm not into combat-oriented campaigns with mercenary missions. I also occasionally find use for Supplement 1: 1001 Characters if I need a fast NPC, Supplement 2: Animal Encounters (mainly just to get an idea of what a beast should be like), and Supplement 4: Citizens of the Imperium (but not character generation).
Supplement 6: 76 Patrons I find very useful for generating an adventure idea, especially with the random rolls to see if the "mission" is actually what the patron claims or is something else entirely. I have Supplement 7: Traders and Gunboats, but don't think I've ever used it aside from to get an idea for a ship as I'm not much at building ships.
I have a handful of the Adventures and Double Adventures but I generally just borrow elements and don't use them as-is. I don't really like the "Imperium" setting in the later stuff so I just discard that and use a more wild-and-woolly frontier setting of my own devising as inspired by E.C. Tubb (my favorite sci fi author so far), Jack Vance, Andre Norton, and some other writers. I also have some Judges Guild stuff like Maranantha-Alkahest Sector, Glimmerdrift Reaches, and Ley Sector, but don't find them especially useful except for some of the rumor ideas. Merchants & Merchandise from Paranoia Press gives me ideas as well.
My most useful book is probably 76 Patrons as I keep coming back to it and can use it for other games, too. Just read "galley" instead of "starship" and so on and it can be used for a pseudohistorical game or a fantasy game.
I have a blog where I have written a great deal about playing Classic Traveller with only Books 1-3 and no "Imperium." (I mention the Dumarest books as well as the other literary inspirations for the game.)
See signature below!
Honestly I'd love to hear more about your Traveller games.
Damnit! I see this thread just as I have to go to work!
Tell me, have you done a comparison between Traveller 1977 and Traveller 1981?
More later....
Welcome!
And might I say that you have great taste in games :) There are a few TFT people here. I'm sure they will be along shortly.
Quote from: jeff37923;958194Damnit! I see this thread just as I have to go to work!
Tell me, have you done a comparison between Traveller 1977 and Traveller 1981?
More later....
Christopher Kubasik (the guy who posted above you) compared the 1977 and 1981 versions: https://talestoastound.wordpress.com/traveller-out-of-the-box/
That's some of the kind of stuff I am really looking for, plus just scenarios and other ideas.
I will try to post about Traveller, but as I stated in my original post I don't know how qualified I am to intelligently discuss games or the hows and whys of it all. I just play them....
Quote from: Madprofessor;958196Welcome!
Thank you.
Quote from: Madprofessor;958196And might I say that you have great taste in games :) .
Or could be I'm just old and not hip to the new breed. Or too cheap to buy new stuff.:D
I was Googling The Fantasy Trip and haven't seen much online presence, but then again it's unfortunately been out of print for 30+ years. (I have 3rd edition GURPS and it's pretty good as a sequel but I'm not really into debits for Advantages and credits for Disadvantages as I feel like the player should just make up his character's personality and roleplay it because she wants to play that character, not because playing a hypochondriac coward gets her extra points to spend elsewhere. But I do love me some GURPS sourcebooks from the 3rd edition product line.)
Quote from: ChristopherKubasik;958193I have a blog where I have written a great deal about playing Classic Traveller with only Books 1-3 and no "Imperium." (I mention the Dumarest books as well as the other literary inspirations for the game.)
See signature below!
Honestly I'd love to hear more about your Traveller games.
Your blog is really great stuff. I don't know about the Flame Princess (?) game but the Classic Traveller posts are very insightful and say a lot of the things I feel about why I play the 1977 edition rather than later editions. There are many small changes that accrue to make (to my eyes) rather large differences between the editions. I also don't care for the later books/supplements that make the ship sizes of the original version seem quaint and cozy, or make it much easier to get fuel, and so on. Or the changes to make the game seem more like it's in the midst of a galactic civilization rather than at the fringes. Not that you can't discard that stuff for your own setting but I find it easier to add to 1977 than to subtract from the later stuff; plus players will assume anything in the books you're using is fair game unless you specifically blacklist it so it's easier for me to use 1977 and add whatever options I want. I don't want to say anyone who likes the 3rd Imperium is wrong; I just am not into that setting. I kind of play Traveller and The Fantasy Trip as the same thing just one is out in space and the other is in a pseudo-Bronze Age fantasy world.
I'm also not good at explaining my position in the ways that Christopher Kubasik does on his blog. Which is why I shouldn't try to comment on that stuff.
Quote from: Dumarest;958217Your blog is really great stuff...
Thank you so much!
Quote from: Dumarest;958217I don't know about the Flame Princess (?) game
LotFP is a retro-clone of B/X D&D. My game draws on the same
sensibilities of play that I would bring to refereeing a Classic
Traveller game. Rules simplicity; character through roleplaying; no pre-plotted story; and so on. I consider them both part of the OSR. (That's by my definitions, which is useful and practical for me, and need not concern anyone else.)
Quote from: Dumarest;958217Which is why I shouldn't try to comment on that stuff.
What I'm really interested in is how you play. How you set up settings. How you set up the first session. How you play the game. What kinds of things the Players have their characters do.
Quote from: ChristopherKubasik;958235What I'm really interested in is how you play. How you set up settings. How you set up the first session. How you play the game. What kinds of things the Players have their characters do.
When I get a chance I will try to post about that on here since you asked. Not sure how interesting it will be! It's not complicated but I need to sit down and think about how to tell about it in a way that makes sense to someone other than me and is also not dull. Hopefully.
Quote from: Dumarest;958236When I get a chance I will try to post about that on here since you asked. Not sure how interesting it will be! It's not complicated but I need to sit down and think about how to tell about it in a way that makes sense to someone other than me and is also not dull. Hopefully.
I don't care much about dull, really. (It can only be so lengthy, right?)
I am more interested in this: People often make Classic Traveller too complicated: Too much background; to much politics out of the gate; too much information for the Players to digest even before they begin margin a character; too many options; too little clarity on
what they might do.
I'm curious about how people set up CT games that
work.
Welcome to the adult swim.
Quote from: Dumarest;958213I was Googling The Fantasy Trip and haven't seen much online presence, but then again it's unfortunately been out of print for 30+ years.
Have you looked at Dark City Games (http://www.darkcitygames.com/index.php)?
Quote from: Dumarest;958171Long time listener, first time caller...playing Traveller (the 1977 boxed set) and The Fantasy Trip (In the Labyrinth, Advanced Wizard, and Advanced Melee).
I have been lurking here for a while reading all the erudite discussion of RPGs and rules and mechanics. I don't feel especially qualified to comment on any of that stuff so I have refrained from registering until today. (I know what games I have enjoyed and which ones I don't care for, but I couldn't tell you why mechanic X is superior to mechanics Y and Z or whatever like you guys and gals like to debate.) I see a whole lot of discussion of various Dungeons and various Dragons. Are there any threads here about Classic Traveller and/or The Fantasy Trip? Or any good web sites I should check out?
Still one of my favorite games, actually. Played often and very recently lucked into a game with Marc Miller at GaryCon this year.
Citizens of the Imperium is a good website, started by Hunter who did 4e Traveller, and then taken over by FFE.
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/
The Zhodani Base is another great Traveller website
http://zho.berka.com/
Traveller Downport is really good
http://www.downport.com/
Finally I like to read, ...and every once in awhile contribute to,
Freelance Travellerhttps://www.freelancetraveller.com/
You'll find articles I write on Traveller once-in-awhile here in this forum, as well as over on G+ there;
https://plus.google.com/u/0/+DirkCollins
The G+ group is a private RPG circle, so If I know your handle on G+ (or you PM me an email addy) I"ll invite you so you can get access to gaming articles I post over there including plenty of
Traveller...
Quote from: jeff37923;958194Damnit! I see this thread just as I have to go to work!
Tell me, have you done a comparison between Traveller 1977 and Traveller 1981?
More later....
Oh, ...actually just picked up an original Traveller boxed set for $35 last month, and it is the first time I have owned the original edition since since 1977. They changed much sooner than 1981, cause I picked up a second boxed set in 1980 that no longer had the jump routes tables included...
Quote from: Dumarest;958198I don't know how qualified I am to intelligently discuss games or the hows and whys of it all. I just play them....
Opinions are like assholes. Everyone's got one.
And mine is the only one that smells great!
Please feel free to let your freak flag fly. If you say something smart or stupid, we'll pounce on it either way.
BTW, the fact that YOU PLAY RPGS set you apart from too many people who played, not play, the games they love. We love to hear about cool stuff from your table and we also have plenty of posters whose first language isn't English.
We call them Canadians.
Quote from: Dumarest;958213Or could be I'm just old and not hip to the new breed. Or too cheap to buy new stuff.:D
There is a crapton of free stuff on the web.
There are loads of 3rd party creations too available on DriveThruRPG and RPGNow.
BTW, its not for the Traveller system, but Stars Without Number gets a lot of love from Traveller fans. Here's a link to the free PDF.
http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/86467/Stars-Without-Number-Free-Edition
Quote from: Black Vulmea;958238Welcome to the adult swim.
Have you looked at Dark City Games (http://www.darkcitygames.com/index.php)?
BV's right in Dark City. They have a whole line of TFT compatible games under the "Legends of" titles now and a bunch of solos too.
Legends of the Ancient World is the fantasy version with 14 adventures.
Legends of Time and Space is the SF version and has the second most adventures out at 5.
Legends of the Untamed West is the last one and has so far the least at a mere 1.
The core rules for each are free and all except Untamed West has a 2 free adventures too.
There have been a few threads and discussions on TFT or Melee/Wizard in the last few months so if you do a search you might find them.
Quote from: ChristopherKubasik;958237I don't care much about dull, really. (It can only be so lengthy, right?)
I am more interested in this: People often make Classic Traveller too complicated: Too much background; to much politics out of the gate; too much information for the Players to digest even before they begin margin a character; too many options; too little clarity on what they might do.
I'm curious about how people set up CT games that work.
Not sure how much detail you are I interested in, so if you want more just say so...
I start by rolling up a subsector at random. I take the random results and then alter anything that I think could work better but not until I think about various planet/star system results and what the could mean on their own and also in conjunction with each other. I try to make sure there are reasonable opportunities and means to travel from one system to another, as well as reasons you might want or need to. I try to see if there are any relationships or ties, trade or otherwise, that might make sense between the various planets. I prefer to have pretty much no central government at all, so it's more like E.C. Tubb's Dumarest stories. Basically independent planets with their own governments and cultures. It makes for good episodic gaming and ways to pick up new and different PCs if anyone dies or needs a backup. Yes, I steal institutions from Tubb as well, although it may not be the Cyclan or the Universal Brotherhood there will be nefarious and religious sects. I also think up and steal and randomly generate rumors the PCs may hear at various locations. I try to have at least three per locale, plus possible (and possibly competing) patrons or employers. Then we roll up characters and extrapolate backgrounds based on their scores and skills and ages, of course taking the setting into account. That is, there is no Galactic Navy, so maybe you were in the Navy of Planet X while this PC was a merchant working trade routes between Planets X, Y, and Z. I like to establish that they've either retired or been fired and have them tell me why they are out here in the fringes of civilization. Sometimes I give them some information or rumors about the subsector to spur the whys and how-comes of their characters being there. If someone scored a ship in character generation, I'll get that written up and named and figure out who they owe money to (bank? guild? mafioso? etc.) and see how that affects what the PCs will do. I steal a page from the West End Games Star Wars game and ask the players to come up with their connections to each other, and again the scores and skills and backgrounds help with that. Two guys both in the Scouts? Maybe they know each other from that. Maybe that Merchant is your cousin or former brother-in-law. I don't know, you tell me. Then I usually plop them down on whichever planet seems a good starting point and away we go. I don't worry about much else until it comes up in play or looks likely to do so. If there's something the PCs would know about a person or place or thing, I just tell them. Otherwise they find out about as soon as I do. I don't set up encounters or scenarios as set pieces; instead I roll up random stuff and try to make it coherent (as in it makes sense whether the PCs know it or not, as stuff happens in the background whether they are aware or not) and let the players choose what they want to do. One nice thing about Traveller is you can always go somewhere else if where you are isn't fun or interesting. I don't think I've ever needed more than one or two subsectors so I've never had to generate a galaxy or empire or any of that stuff. It's more like the Wild West and boomtowns and mining operations and pony express and cattle barons in space, at least that's what I like. I just wish I got to be a PC more often; I have the misfortune of being the reliable person who is willing to put in the work and read books so I nearly always end being the ref. Which is fun too.
Quote from: GameDaddy;958239Still one of my favorite games, actually. Played often and very recently lucked into a game with Marc Miller at GaryCon this year.
Citizens of the Imperium is a good website, started by Hunter who did 4e Traveller, and then taken over by FFE.
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/
The Zhodani Base is another great Traveller website
http://zho.berka.com/
Traveller Downport is really good
http://www.downport.com/
Finally I like to read, ...and every once in awhile contribute to, Freelance Traveller
https://www.freelancetraveller.com/
You'll find articles I write on Traveller once-in-awhile here in this forum, as well as over on G+ there;
https://plus.google.com/u/0/+DirkCollins
The G+ group is a private RPG circle, so If I know your handle on G+ (or you PM me an email addy) I"ll invite you so you can get access to gaming articles I post over there including plenty of Traveller...
Thanks for the references. I will have to check those out. What was it like to play with Mr. Miller?
Quote from: Omega;958251BV's right in Dark City. They have a whole line of TFT compatible games under the "Legends of" titles now and a bunch of solos too.
Legends of the Ancient World is the fantasy version with 14 adventures.
Legends of Time and Space is the SF version and has the second most adventures out at 5.
Legends of the Untamed West is the last one and has so far the least at a mere 1.
The core rules for each are free and all except Untamed West has a 2 free adventures too.
There have been a few threads and discussions on TFT or Melee/Wizard in the last few months so if you do a search you might find them.
I had not heard of any of this stuff. Is it Fantasy Trip with the serial numbers files off or did they get the rights and change the name? I always thought the name sounded like a hippie band of potheads from Berkeley in the late '60s, like Quicksilver Messenger Service or something.
Quote from: Dumarest;958255I had not heard of any of this stuff. Is it Fantasy Trip with the serial numbers files off or did they get the rights and change the name? I always thought the name sounded like a hippie band of potheads from Berkeley in the late '60s, like Quicksilver Messenger Service or something.
Serials numbers filed off. It doesn't have the nuances of the original rules but the design principles and overall mechanics are the same. The same thing with Heroes and Other Worlds (http://heroworlds.blogspot.com/)
"What are you doing this weekend, Dumarest?"
"Playing The Fantasy Trip, maaaaaan!"
"Damn dirty hippie."
Quote from: Dumarest;958198Christopher Kubasik (the guy who posted above you) compared the 1977 and 1981 versions: https://talestoastound.wordpress.com/traveller-out-of-the-box/
That's some of the kind of stuff I am really looking for, plus just scenarios and other ideas.
I will try to post about Traveller, but as I stated in my original post I don't know how qualified I am to intelligently discuss games or the hows and whys of it all. I just play them....
If you play the games then you know how they work in practice and not just in theory, and that is preferable.
Don't know if you would be interested or not, but we have a Traveller RPG Group on Facebook where a lot of discussion occurs.
Quote from: jeff37923;958269If you play the games then you know how they work in practice and not just in theory, and that is preferable.
Don't know if you would be interested or not, but we have a Traveller RPG Group on Facebook where a lot of discussion occurs.
Thanks...I assume one needs to be on Facebook for that? I'm not on any social media to date. Is that like a forum or a video conference thing like Skype?
Quote from: Black Vulmea;958238Welcome to the adult swim.
Have you looked at Dark City Games (http://www.darkcitygames.com/index.php)?
I am looking at it now; thanks for the referral.
I also am enjoying reading the "back issues" of your swashbuckling RPG blog. I have a boxed set of Flashing Blades in my closet that I should break out sometime.
The name The Fantasy Trip is a nice little enshrining of the "hippy 70s" vibe that showed up in the early days. There were drug culture references here and there in various products, or Greg Stafford's fairly earnest interest in spiritual exploration, even things like some of the original TFT counters having some pretty cool bell-bottom wearing characters. All gone by about 1983 for the new 80s commercial marketplace.
In the early 80s, when I was a pretty young kid, I remember my family visiting some post-hippy friends in their (mud-brick?) home full of incense, beads etc. They had a couple of Dragon magazines lying around. Probably not even gamers but dragons and trippy art were the thing in those circles.
I'm a huge TFT fan. It was my first RPG, and still a sentimental favorite and influence, and it will still do, especially with house rules. I just finished a play through of TFT Grailquest last month.
Dark City Games' programmed adventures are well done, and adaptable for use with TFT. However the rules they published are like Cliff Notes version, and leave out a lot. But if you know TFT that's not much of a problem except some things are vague and want GM rulings to use them with TFT since their system is much simpler and slightly different.
The biggest group of online diehard TFT players I know of is the TFT Email List. It's often inactive until someone posts something, but new posts tend to lead to a flurry of replies. It has an archive that goes back years or decades.
I now generally prefer GURPS and modded GURPS to TFT just because I've played so much that plain TFT seems missing a few things I want. If you don't like getting points for disadvantages, there are of course ways to houserule fixes for that.
Quote from: Dumarest;958274I am looking at it now; thanks for the referral.
You're welcome.
Quote from: Dumarest;958255Is it Fantasy Trip with the serial numbers files off . . . ?
Pretty much, and compatible with all your existing
TFT materials.
So enjoy a dozen-plus new modules, maps, and counter sets for your game.
Quote from: Dumarest;958274I also am enjoying reading the "back issues" of your swashbuckling RPG blog. I have a boxed set of Flashing Blades in my closet that I should break out sometime.
You might enjoy our campaign wiki (https://le-ballet-de-l-acier.obsidianportal.com/) as well.
Gotta give you big props for the E.C. Tubb avatar and name. Just discovered his books recently. His muscular and literate space opera adventures come close to scratching my Leigh Brackett itch.
Quote from: Voros;958334Gotta give you big props for the E.C. Tubb avatar and name. Just discovered his books recently. His muscular and literate space opera adventures come close to scratching my Leigh Brackett itch.
I just wish the 32nd and 33rd books were easily obtained. I've seen them for sale in eBay and Amazon Marketplace for crazy prices. I think there may be electronic versions but the last thing I want do after work is read on a screen. Still, I may have to succumb and figure out this e-book thing as I'm reading the 30th book in the Dumarest series right now and it won't be long until I hit that unsatisfying lack of a conclusion in the 31st book.
TFT is easily my favorite game; I think its the best system published for action-oriented fantasy roleplaying. There are several official, in-print resources out there; in addition to Dark City games, there is Heroes and Other Worlds, which has an astonishingly large catalogue of spells, monsters and setting materials. But, much as I like the love these folks show for the system, I find them all problematic enough that I tend to just fall back on the originals (± my house rule additions, which I've distributed by pdf a couple of times).
Dark City's modules are relatively compatible to TFT, though in detail the treatment of talents and spell lists is a lot narrower, so you may find yourself wanting to adapt them. Nevertheless, they can be played pretty much as you would play Death Test, Grail Quest, etc. Their core rule books are not worth the effort; anyone who wants to play TFT should just get a copy of the original game (by hook or by crook...).
Heroes and Other Worlds is a more complicated case. The core rules are very nicely written and presented and contain some well thought out changes to the way attack and defense is resolved in combat. Unfortunately, the system of movement and maneuver is not carried over from Melee, meaning they removed the meat from the only really fast, playable tactical combat system anyone has ever published! I think anyone playing TFT should use the map board combat system, meaning you need to somehow hybridize HoW with melee. More problematically, HoW introduces a fourth stat that acts as a kind of hit point/spell point reservoir. In general, only player characters are allowed to have points in this stat, though a small and quite confusing list of monsters also gets points in it. Moreover, the campaign materials present NPC's with very low stats (particularly DX). The end result is a huge shift in the power balance of the game in favor of the PC's. This is not an improvement. In fact, I think it breaks a game that grew organically from a system for table-top play of more or less balanced gladiatorial fights. Also, the weapon damage scores are totally irrational - as are the fixes to them suggested in a supplement (i.e., damage is not regularly related to minimum ST). All in all, it is a noble effort that is fun to read, but I don't actually play it using its rules or even NPC stats.
In the end, I'd say TFT is simply an old game that should still be played in its original form, mostly using setting materials you write yourself. Which is awesome, because that was always the whole point of table top roleplaying games! You could say much the same for Classic Traveller, but that's a post for another morning...
I feel as Larsdangly does about TFT and DCG and HOW, though after 5-7 years playing TFT, we were ready for more complexity and we desired some adjustments to the combat system, which GURPS filled in very nicely by being published at the time we were starting to write our own (even more complex) set of rules.
As for your (OP/Dumarest's) issue with GURPS disadvantages, I think (like most of the rest of GURPS) it becomes a non-problem if you have a good GM involved in new character creation. Yes, crazy characters can be made, and with no sanity applied, it seems like there's a weird situation where you could take handicaps in exchange of super-skills, but a good experienced GM will not approve that, and even the published guidelines don't really lead to that. That is, if you have (3e) 100-point starting characters with a maximum of 40 points in disads and you notice the guidelines about appropriate skills and a starting limit of about 2 points per year of age, there is no way to use disads to give yourself uber skills (because of the age limit and the 3e curved skill progression). Also when you look at the choices for spending 40 points in disads, you'll notice that you can get 40 points with disads that don't make you a freak at all, and may actually just be in character (sense of duty, enemies, reputation, dependents, social status, miserliness, code of honor, honesty, overconfidence, bad habits, short-sightedness, unattractive, short attention span, etc etc), and the freaky and crippling disads are not worth the points and even if you try something like taking One Arm or One Eye and dumping the points into combat skills or advantages, you end up with a weaker fighter than if you kept an intact body. And that's not even involving GM guidance. If 40 points seems like a bit too many disads, you can also just specify a lower maximum disads (even zero, if you really don't want any).
Quote from: Dumarest;958361I just wish the 32nd and 33rd books were easily obtained. I've seen them for sale in eBay and Amazon Marketplace for crazy prices. I think there may be electronic versions but the last thing I want do after work is read on a screen. Still, I may have to succumb and figure out this e-book thing as I'm reading the 30th book in the Dumarest series right now and it won't be long until I hit that unsatisfying lack of a conclusion in the 31st book.
So you know reading on a eink reader is nothing like a LCD screen. It pretty much like paper.
Quote from: Skarg;958382I feel as Larsdangly does about TFT and DCG and HOW, though after 5-7 years playing TFT, we were ready for more complexity and we desired some adjustments to the combat system, which GURPS filled in very nicely by being published at the time we were starting to write our own (even more complex) set of rules.
...
I have strong but mixed feelings about GURPS as the inheritor of TFT's crown. The games are part of the same lineage, and Steve Jackson clearly intended GURPS to be a sort of next-generation TFT. And in most respects it succeeds in just this way. However, I find that the tremendous breadth and complexity found in the character generation rules has two effects I don't like:
1) all trade offs are expressed through a single system - the character point 'economy'. But the properties you buy with those points vary enormously in their effects on play, so it is inevitable that players will game the system to exchange a variety of basically irrelevant weaknesses for one killer strength. TFT also has a trade-off economy in character creation, but the playing field is way, way narrower, so all strengths come with closely balanced, definitely relevant weaknesses. As a result, there are lots of different TFT character types, but is surprisingly hard to design a character who blows everyone's doors off in some narrowly defined playing field. Basically, I wish they had left character design so that you traded ST against DX, not ST against alcoholism, social status or color blindness.
2) the game is just so big that, no matter what setting you choose to play, you have to wade through a lot of stuff that is irrelevant to you. Perhaps this is just an aesthetic point, but I don't like shoveling through 300 pages of rules to play a game that could be expressed in 50 pages.
On the other hand, a lot of the small, mechanical changes to the rules between TFT and GURPS are obviously improvements on their shared 'engine'. The way parries and blocks work in combat; the properties of armor; damage and injury; how skills relate to stats. Perhaps what I really want is a version of GURPS that has been pared down to a simple core.
Quote from: Skarg;958382I feel as Larsdangly does about TFT and DCG and HOW, though after 5-7 years playing TFT, we were ready for more complexity and we desired some adjustments to the combat system, which GURPS filled in very nicely by being published at the time we were starting to write our own (even more complex) set of rules.
As for your (OP/Dumarest's) issue with GURPS disadvantages, I think (like most of the rest of GURPS) it becomes a non-problem if you have a good GM involved in new character creation. Yes, crazy characters can be made, and with no sanity applied, it seems like there's a weird situation where you could take handicaps in exchange of super-skills, but a good experienced GM will not approve that, and even the published guidelines don't really lead to that. That is, if you have (3e) 100-point starting characters with a maximum of 40 points in disads and you notice the guidelines about appropriate skills and a starting limit of about 2 points per year of age, there is no way to use disads to give yourself uber skills (because of the age limit and the 3e curved skill progression). Also when you look at the choices for spending 40 points in disads, you'll notice that you can get 40 points with disads that don't make you a freak at all, and may actually just be in character (sense of duty, enemies, reputation, dependents, social status, miserliness, code of honor, honesty, overconfidence, bad habits, short-sightedness, unattractive, short attention span, etc etc), and the freaky and crippling disads are not worth the points and even if you try something like taking One Arm or One Eye and dumping the points into combat skills or advantages, you end up with a weaker fighter than if you kept an intact body. And that's not even involving GM guidance. If 40 points seems like a bit too many disads, you can also just specify a lower maximum disads (even zero, if you really don't want any).
If I were to use GURPS I'd just say "here's your points, make your guy" and if you want him to be alcoholic or a coward or a kleptomaniac you're not getting any extra skills or attribute points for that. To me that's just the roleplaying part of RPGs and shouldn't require an incentive. I've had players in plenty of different games give themselves handicaps and disadvantages just for the fun of it so I don't really see the need to gain something else by doing it.
Quote from: estar;958385So you know reading on a eink reader is nothing like a LCD screen. It pretty much like paper.
I don't know what an eink reader is, actually; I'll have to look that up. But the only screens I have available at home are a laptop or my phone, neither of which I want to sit and read from while relaxing.
Quote from: Larsdangly;958373TFT is easily my favorite game; I think its the best system published for action-oriented fantasy roleplaying. There are several official, in-print resources out there; in addition to Dark City games, there is Heroes and Other Worlds, which has an astonishingly large catalogue of spells, monsters and setting materials. But, much as I like the love these folks show for the system, I find them all problematic enough that I tend to just fall back on the originals (± my house rule additions, which I've distributed by pdf a couple of times).
Dark City's modules are relatively compatible to TFT, though in detail the treatment of talents and spell lists is a lot narrower, so you may find yourself wanting to adapt them. Nevertheless, they can be played pretty much as you would play Death Test, Grail Quest, etc. Their core rule books are not worth the effort; anyone who wants to play TFT should just get a copy of the original game (by hook or by crook...).
Heroes and Other Worlds is a more complicated case. The core rules are very nicely written and presented and contain some well thought out changes to the way attack and defense is resolved in combat. Unfortunately, the system of movement and maneuver is not carried over from Melee, meaning they removed the meat from the only really fast, playable tactical combat system anyone has ever published! I think anyone playing TFT should use the map board combat system, meaning you need to somehow hybridize HoW with melee. More problematically, HoW introduces a fourth stat that acts as a kind of hit point/spell point reservoir. In general, only player characters are allowed to have points in this stat, though a small and quite confusing list of monsters also gets points in it. Moreover, the campaign materials present NPC's with very low stats (particularly DX). The end result is a huge shift in the power balance of the game in favor of the PC's. This is not an improvement. In fact, I think it breaks a game that grew organically from a system for table-top play of more or less balanced gladiatorial fights. Also, the weapon damage scores are totally irrational - as are the fixes to them suggested in a supplement (i.e., damage is not regularly related to minimum ST). All in all, it is a noble effort that is fun to read, but I don't actually play it using its rules or even NPC stats.
In the end, I'd say TFT is simply an old game that should still be played in its original form, mostly using setting materials you write yourself. Which is awesome, because that was always the whole point of table top roleplaying games! You could say much the same for Classic Traveller, but that's a post for another morning...
My plan is to steal whatever I can from those free adventures and use them with the rules I already have. I don't really need another version of a game I already have. (I can't really wrap my head around all the D&D "clones" for the same reason, except maybe if we're talking about clarifying some of the more impenetrable passages in 1974 D&D or the original DMG and PHB.)
Besides, I know where free PDFs of The Fantasy Trip can be obtained and have them at home in addition to my actual books. I would be reluctant to spread them around since I'm pretty sure the web site where I saw them has no right to the intellectual property as last I read those rights were still with Howard Thompson (Metagaming), which is kind of a shame since he's just been sitting on them for 35 years. On the other hand, since I paid for and own actual copies I don't feel I'm doing anything wrong by having an electronic backup if I'm not spreading it around to people.
Quote from: jeff37923;958194Damnit! I see this thread just as I have to go to work!
Tell me, have you done a comparison between Traveller 1977 and Traveller 1981?
More later....
I have a detailed comparison here:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jsH-EgKvaR0mdbtJMj_Xj7X3TcYyZTqQGf-Gwu58PX0/edit?usp=sharing
Quote from: jeff37923;958194Damnit! I see this thread just as I have to go to work!
Tell me, have you done a comparison between Traveller 1977 and Traveller 1981?
More later....
Quote from: Dumarest;958253Not sure how much detail you are I interested in, so if you want more just say so...
I start by rolling up a subsector at random. I take the random results and then alter anything that I think could work better but not until I think about various planet/star system results and what the could mean on their own and also in conjunction with each other. I try to make sure there are reasonable opportunities and means to travel from one system to another, as well as reasons you might want or need to. I try to see if there are any relationships or ties, trade or otherwise, that might make sense between the various planets. I prefer to have pretty much no central government at all, so it's more like E.C. Tubb's Dumarest stories. Basically independent planets with their own governments and cultures. It makes for good episodic gaming and ways to pick up new and different PCs if anyone dies or needs a backup. Yes, I steal institutions from Tubb as well, although it may not be the Cyclan or the Universal Brotherhood there will be nefarious and religious sects. I also think up and steal and randomly generate rumors the PCs may hear at various locations. I try to have at least three per locale, plus possible (and possibly competing) patrons or employers. Then we roll up characters and extrapolate backgrounds based on their scores and skills and ages, of course taking the setting into account. That is, there is no Galactic Navy, so maybe you were in the Navy of Planet X while this PC was a merchant working trade routes between Planets X, Y, and Z. I like to establish that they've either retired or been fired and have them tell me why they are out here in the fringes of civilization. Sometimes I give them some information or rumors about the subsector to spur the whys and how-comes of their characters being there. If someone scored a ship in character generation, I'll get that written up and named and figure out who they owe money to (bank? guild? mafioso? etc.) and see how that affects what the PCs will do. I steal a page from the West End Games Star Wars game and ask the players to come up with their connections to each other, and again the scores and skills and backgrounds help with that. Two guys both in the Scouts? Maybe they know each other from that. Maybe that Merchant is your cousin or former brother-in-law. I don't know, you tell me. Then I usually plop them down on whichever planet seems a good starting point and away we go. I don't worry about much else until it comes up in play or looks likely to do so. If there's something the PCs would know about a person or place or thing, I just tell them. Otherwise they find out about as soon as I do. I don't set up encounters or scenarios as set pieces; instead I roll up random stuff and try to make it coherent (as in it makes sense whether the PCs know it or not, as stuff happens in the background whether they are aware or not) and let the players choose what they want to do. One nice thing about Traveller is you can always go somewhere else if where you are isn't fun or interesting. I don't think I've ever needed more than one or two subsectors so I've never had to generate a galaxy or empire or any of that stuff. It's more like the Wild West and boomtowns and mining operations and pony express and cattle barons in space, at least that's what I like. I just wish I got to be a PC more often; I have the misfortune of being the reliable person who is willing to put in the work and read books so I nearly always end being the ref. Which is fun too.
Cool to see another Classic Traveller guy out there...
Frank
Quote from: Dumarest;958171Long time listener, first time caller...playing Traveller (the 1977 boxed set) and The Fantasy Trip (In the Labyrinth, Advanced Wizard, and Advanced Melee).
I played TFT when I thought I was going towards simulation mechanics for my games. It became more so when Man To Man was released.
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;958416I played TFT when I thought I was going towards simulation mechanics for my games. It became more so when Man To Man was released.
Saw a copy of Man to Man once but never have read it or played it. My impression was it was some sort of gladiatorial fighting game.
Quote from: jeff37923;958194Damnit! I see this thread just as I have to go to work!
Tell me, have you done a comparison between Traveller 1977 and Traveller 1981?
More later....
Quote from: Dumarest;958427Saw a copy of Man to Man once but never have read it or played it. My impression was it was some sort of gladiatorial fighting game.
I did also, long enough to photocopy the battle map... I've always thought of it as "Man to Man is to GURPS and Melee is to The Fantasy Trip"
Is TFT doable if you prefer theatre of the mind or is the battle map essential to how the game plays/feels?
Quote from: Weru;958437Is TFT doable if you prefer theatre of the mind or is the battle map essential to how the game plays/feels?
I'm no authority but I think you'd lose a lot of what makes then game exciting and fun. The combat choices you make depend a lot on your position in relation to your opponent. I'd rather use a hex grid and some sort of figure or token when combat arises. I guess you could do it all in your mind but I don't know if that would be playing to the strength of the game.
Probably someone more expert on the topic could answer better. I just play the games; I don't really theorize about them.
Quote from: Weru;958437Is TFT doable if you prefer theatre of the mind or is the battle map essential to how the game plays/feels?
I think TFT is best with a hex map and you lose something if you don't use one. I use to play Melee and Wizard (ancestors of TFT) as a wargame a lot and it is very tactical, lots of choices. That tactical trade-off that the game is so good at really needs the map. However, I personally don't like using such maps or minis for RPGs, and I have run many games of TFT and HoW as theater of the mind. It still works very well as an RPG, you just don't get that wargame experience too, without the map.
Quote from: Weru;958437Is TFT doable if you prefer theatre of the mind or is the battle map essential to how the game plays/feels?
TFT is GURPS Lite without all the skills/advantages/disadvantages/traits/perks/quirks/actives/younameit. Both can(not) use hexgrid maps for fight scenes, depending on who's wargaming (or not) at the table.
Quote from: Larsdangly;958395I have strong but mixed feelings about GURPS as the inheritor of TFT's crown. The games are part of the same lineage, and Steve Jackson clearly intended GURPS to be a sort of next-generation TFT. And in most respects it succeeds in just this way. However, I find that the tremendous breadth and complexity found in the character generation rules has two effects I don't like:
1) all trade offs are expressed through a single system - the character point 'economy'. But the properties you buy with those points vary enormously in their effects on play, so it is inevitable that players will game the system to exchange a variety of basically irrelevant weaknesses for one killer strength. TFT also has a trade-off economy in character creation, but the playing field is way, way narrower, so all strengths come with closely balanced, definitely relevant weaknesses. As a result, there are lots of different TFT character types, but is surprisingly hard to design a character who blows everyone's doors off in some narrowly defined playing field. Basically, I wish they had left character design so that you traded ST against DX, not ST against alcoholism, social status or color blindness.
2) the game is just so big that, no matter what setting you choose to play, you have to wade through a lot of stuff that is irrelevant to you. Perhaps this is just an aesthetic point, but I don't like shoveling through 300 pages of rules to play a game that could be expressed in 50 pages.
On the other hand, a lot of the small, mechanical changes to the rules between TFT and GURPS are obviously improvements on their shared 'engine'. The way parries and blocks work in combat; the properties of armor; damage and injury; how skills relate to stats. Perhaps what I really want is a version of GURPS that has been pared down to a simple core.
I partly agree with you on point 1). However as GM I give guidance and intervene when/if the point system seems to be a problem for some PC's creation. A GM can take that as far as they like, even disallowing most/all disadvantages, lowering the max disad points, limiting the list of points spendable on what, etc. But the ability to do that well kind of wants a lot of familiarity with the system, and time/energy etc. Good experienced players also often come up with really fun/cool/appropriate characters rather than munchkin monsters.
I also partly (mostly, if you mean the 4e Basic Set) agree with you on point 2), though I think the 3e Basic Set is a good core book for a lowish-tech campaign. I still find the 4e Basic Set annoyingly full of stuff I never want to use and/or would prefer to have in a special book as in 3e.
I'm sure it helps that on top of liking the type of game, I learned it in historical order of ascending complexity: TFT, Advanced TFT, Man to Man, GURPS 1e, 2e, 3e, 4e. And even so, what I play is part 3e, part 4e, various houserules (and often a TFT context in the back of my head).
I kind of prefer the TFT magic system to vanilla GURPS Magic in several ways, too.
Man to Man is the Melee of GURPS, except they never re-printed it. That is, it's just the medieval combat system and medieval fighter character creation rules (and no Disadvantages!), and was published first before there were any other GURPS products. (IIRC, it has no IQ-based skills, either.) Actually, it's more like Advanced Melee, because it has pretty much the full combat system in one place, which is great for learning, and that combat system didn't change a whole lot up through 3e. I do think the combat system has improved through 3e and partly in 4e, but it's mostly the same combat system and is most of what I love about GURPS, with none of the noise and non-combat stuff mixed in. (I.e. they're probably foolish to not continue to make Man to Man for the later editions, and it's a great way to learn the combat system, though there would be a few things to change/relearn for later editions, mainly somewhat different defense values (mainly shields) and removal of the Stop Thrust rules.)
There is one adventure module for Man to Man (Orcslayer) which I think is a pretty cool focused ready-to-play combat adventure.
As for playing TFT without maps in combat, as others said, you certainly can, but you certainly lose something, unless it's a 1 on 1 toe-to-toe fight in a boring location/situation. I have run simple combats without a map because I thought the map probably didn't matter, and then run a similar one with the map, and been surprised what I was missing. It's not really worse than running another game theater-of-the-mind, except 1) when you do know what you're missing and that bugs you (having enjoyed TFT/GURPS mapped combat is the main reason I am disinterested in playing any RPG without a map), and 2) as the system is designed for a map where positioning makes the difference between life and death, not using a map means whatever you use instead to decide who can attack whom becomes very important to determining who lives or dies. It'll likely be as deadly and arbitrary as classic Traveller but with only one attribute of damage before you're dead (or moreso, as there are effects of injury).
TFT without maps is like chess without a board. It could probably be done in some way, but I wouldn't bother - there are literally hundreds of roleplaying games out there, and if you don't like something fundamental about the one in front of you, you're probably best advised to find another.
And whoever said magic in TFT is special definitely said a mouthful! I've never seen another game that can touch TFT when it comes to the use of magic in combat. For the obvious reason that TFT is the only full roleplaying game I know of that was built on top of a table-top dueling game, so a lot of thought and play testing went into the implementation of magic in close combat.
Quote from: Dumarest;958448Probably someone more expert on the topic could answer better. I just play the games; I don't really theorize about them.
That's what makes you the better person to ask.
Quote from: Ronin;958651That's what makes you the better person to ask.
Ha, I don't know about that, you see some heady discussion on here about mechanics and rules and percentages and probabilities. I just read those threads without commenting as I've never bothered to figure out what the odds of rolling a 7 on 3d6 might be or whether a scimitar is better than a gladius is better than a wakizashi is better than a scimitar.:confused:
Quote from: Dumarest;958404I don't know what an eink reader is, actually; I'll have to look that up. But the only screens I have available at home are a laptop or my phone, neither of which I want to sit and read from while relaxing.
Kindles (https://www.amazon.com/Amazon-Kindle-Ereader-Family/b?ie=UTF8&node=6669702011)
Nook (http://www.barnesandnoble.com/b/nook/_/N-1pbl?st=SEM&sid=NOK_DRS_NOOK+General+-+Ex_00000000&2sid=Google_e&sourceId=SEGoS65736)
The screen of these devices comprises of thousands of microscopic capsules fill with black and white ink. One color is negatively charged and the other is positively charged. This allows the basic technology to display the written word and b/w pictures. What makes it like paper and ink is the fact that it is reflective of light like ink on a page. The screen of your laptop and phone emit light. For many people starting at what are thousands of fancy colored flashlights is tiring on their eyes. In contrast reading a e-ink work the same way as paper.
The major downside of the technology is that ability of the screen to change what display is a 100 times slows than the screen on your phone or lapstop. Granted we are talking a tenth of a second versus 1 ms for LCD screen however this means that e-ink screen are best at displaying static images.
Today's the best reader have microcapsule density that in the ballpark of printed paper. (typical print is around 300 dots per inch, the best quality like for glossy magazine is 1,000 dots per inch)
So anyway using a e-ink reader is just like reading a book as far the reading the words themselves go. There is a nook for $50, the cheapest Kindle is $80. I personally use a paperwhite kindle that cost me around $120. It great, not only buy off amazon, I went to the free books at Project Gutenberg and download many of the classics to read. They even have some original Conan stories as the copyright of the original publications were not renewed so are in the public domain.
Anyway you seem like you enjoy reading so just passing along the information about the tech.
Quote from: estar;958659Kindles (https://www.amazon.com/Amazon-Kindle-Ereader-Family/b?ie=UTF8&node=6669702011)
Nook (http://www.barnesandnoble.com/b/nook/_/N-1pbl?st=SEM&sid=NOK_DRS_NOOK+General+-+Ex_00000000&2sid=Google_e&sourceId=SEGoS65736)
The screen of these devices comprises of thousands of microscopic capsules fill with black and white ink. One color is negatively charged and the other is positively charged. This allows the basic technology to display the written word and b/w pictures. What makes it like paper and ink is the fact that it is reflective of light like ink on a page. The screen of your laptop and phone emit light. For many people starting at what are thousands of fancy colored flashlights is tiring on their eyes. In contrast reading a e-ink work the same way as paper.
The major downside of the technology is that ability of the screen to change what display is a 100 times slows than the screen on your phone or lapstop. Granted we are talking a tenth of a second versus 1 ms for LCD screen however this means that e-ink screen are best at displaying static images.
Today's the best reader have microcapsule density that in the ballpark of printed paper. (typical print is around 300 dots per inch, the best quality like for glossy magazine is 1,000 dots per inch)
So anyway using a e-ink reader is just like reading a book as far the reading the words themselves go. There is a nook for $50, the cheapest Kindle is $80. I personally use a paperwhite kindle that cost me around $120. It great, not only buy off amazon, I went to the free books at Project Gutenberg and download many of the classics to read. They even have some original Conan stories as the copyright of the original publications were not renewed so are in the public domain.
Anyway you seem like you enjoy reading so just passing along the information about the tech.
Thanks for the information. I was not aware there was such a gadget out there. All I had seen were the shiny ones that hurt the eyes. By the way, I have one of your Savage Wilderlands books at home, I forget the title but it's sort of digest-sized and I guess you'd call it a campaign setting but I used it more just as an idea mine to plunder. There was some interesting material in it. I should look at it again.
Thanks for the answers about TotM in TFT. I do prefer mapless in RPGs, but maybe if I ever get the chance to run TFT I'll try it with the hexmap. Cheers.
Does anyone know a good source for erasable hex maps you can put on your tabletop and draw on? Inexpensive but good quality is preferred, obviously.
Quote from: Dumarest;958928Does anyone know a good source for erasable hex maps you can put on your tabletop and draw on? Inexpensive but good quality is preferred, obviously.
Inexpensive is relative of course, but...
This is the Chessex battle I got (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0015IUAAG/ref=s9_dcacsd_dcoop_bw_c_x_1_w) from Amazon.
Chessex makes them in a variety of sizes. Here is a page at Amazon with some of them listed (https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Dtoys-and-games&field-keywords=chessex+mat&rh=n%3A165793011%2Ck%3Achessex+mat).
Quote from: ChristopherKubasik;958930Inexpensive is relative of course, but...
This is the Chessex battle I got (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0015IUAAG/ref=s9_dcacsd_dcoop_bw_c_x_1_w) from Amazon.
Chessex makes them in a variety of sizes. Here is a page at Amazon with some of them listed (https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Dtoys-and-games&field-keywords=chessex+mat&rh=n%3A165793011%2Ck%3Achessex+mat).
Thanks.
Chessex are nice. Remember you can take pics of battle aftermath for later reference before cleaning or erasing.
What I often use though are photocopies of hex grids, usually onto transparent plastic paper (which well-equipped copy shops tend to have). That lets me draw terrain onto blank paper, overlay with hexes, and then keep the paper maps for later re-use.
I also sometimes lay some place out using drawing software (GIMP, Photoshop) and then print them out. This (or printing and using with transparencies) lets you use computer images, of which there are many available online. You could also check out Campaign Cartographer.
Chessex battle mats are awesome, I still have all of mine, must be over 30 years old at this point. Some key tips...
- If you ever put permanent ink on the mat, rub over it with dry-erase ink and wipe that off, you'll be amazed how good that works.
- Do not use acetone as a permanent ink cleaner, it will take the lines and color off the mat.
- Dry the mat before rolling it, the back is a type of fabric, if that gets wet because you didn't dry the front side before rolling, it can get moldy/mildewed (that's the one I had to toss).
- With any color other than black, make sure you wipe it off quick, don't leave it for a long time, it will be a bitch to get off. Red is the worst, but blue and green will become almost permanent if you leave it long enough.
Yes, Chessex mats are great. Mine might be a bit mildewed but I still have my first, purchased almost 40 years ago...
Somewhere along the line in the 80s I got a clear vinyl hex mat that is super cool because I can make any map a hex battle mat...
I also have a double sided one, hex on one side, squares on the other.
On the other hand, they have seen no use in the last 10 years, since I moved for a short while to OD&D with very abstract miniatures use (I'd lay out some pencils to show a few walls), to Burning Wheel, to play by post games, and lately a Google Hangouts game.
Thanks for the information. I've only ever used paper hex pages, which are a hassle and why I'm looking at reusable alternatives.
Oh, the other thing that was always part of my toolbox was a sheet of plexiglass. Drop that on top of printed battle maps from PDF modules, or maps from print publications and you can use overhead markers to your hears content. It can also help flatten folded or rolled maps and keep the map put (we have used the plexiglass sheet for board games also).
My gaming table used to be a 1/4" white hardboard panel about 3.5'x5' sitting on milk crates, with battle mats, plexiglass sheets, and whatnot on top.
Good information, thank you. I think I will try to find some see-through hex grids I can use over various underlying maps or drawings. That way the actual terrain or labyrinth can be naturalistic and we'll still have the hex for tactics and distances and movement and positioning.
It just occurred to me that Legends of Time and Space is in a small way TFT Traveller. Or can be with some work.
Quote from: Omega;959214It just occurred to me that Legends of Time and Space is in a small way TFT Traveller. Or can be with some work.
That's interesting. I might try that out sometime.
I will probably stick with Classic Traveller for science fiction gaming because I like games that were designed with their setting or premise in mind rather than games that try to be encompass all genres. No offense meant to GURPS fans as I do like GURPS for some things. I just think a game like King Arthur Pendragon is going to do "Arthurian romance roleplaying" much better than a generic system applied to that setting simply because the rules were made with that setting in mind and in service to that setting. Same with Traveller and the pre-Star Wars science fiction that I like to emulate in my games. And for Star Wars, I'd likely use the old West End Star Wars game.
Quote from: Dumarest;959216That's interesting. I might try that out sometime.
I will probably stick with Classic Traveller for science fiction gaming because I like games that were designed with their setting or premise in mind rather than games that try to be encompass all genres. No offense meant to GURPS fans as I do like GURPS for some things. I just think a game like King Arthur Pendragon is going to do "Arthurian romance roleplaying" much better than a generic system applied to that setting simply because the rules were made with that setting in mind and in service to that setting. Same with Traveller and the pre-Star Wars science fiction that I like to emulate in my games. And for for Star Wars, I'd likely use the old West End Star Wars game.
Agreed. I'm pretty sick of the endless discussions of how one can reskin one game to replace another, generally for no obvious reason. If you want to play traveller, play traveller. If you insist on reskinning the rules of your favorite My Little Pony LARP game for use in the traveller universe, please keep it to yourself.
Quote from: Larsdangly;959251Agreed. I'm pretty sick of the endless discussions of how one can reskin one game to replace another, generally for no obvious reason. If you want to play traveller, play traveller. If you insist on reskinning the rules of your favorite My Little Pony LARP game for use in the traveller universe, please keep it to yourself.
You don't like it when you ask, "Hey, what game is good for pirates adventuring in the Caribbean during the golden age of piracy?" and people answer, "James Bond 007 if you change half the rules and rewrite the other half of the game yourself"?
Quote from: Dumarest;959291You don't like it when you ask, "Hey, what game is good for pirates adventuring in the Caribbean during the golden age of piracy?" and people answer, "James Bond 007 if you change half the rules and rewrite the other half of the game yourself"?
Ha! Exactly. Somehow half the game-system threads on these sorts of sites boil down to 50 people taking turns stating that their favorite game of the day is obviously 'can do' whatever topic you happen to be discussing.
Well, if I ever win the Megamillions Lotto I'll make him an offer he can't refuse and get The Fantasy Trip out there as the boxed set Steve Jackson wanted it to be, after incorporating the errata he wrote for The Space Gamer. Maps, dice, the whole shebang.
Someone remind me that one has to buy a ticket to win the lottery.
Meantime I was just reading through the rulebooks at lunch at work today and there really is a lot of good stuff in there even at such a short page count.
Quote from: Dumarest;959316Someone remind me that one has to buy a ticket to win the lottery.
Man, I get tripped up by that every fucking time.
Quote from: Dumarest;959316Well, if I ever win the Megamillions Lotto I'll make him an offer he can't refuse and get The Fantasy Trip out there as the boxed set Steve Jackson wanted it to be, after incorporating the errata he wrote for The Space Gamer. Maps, dice, the whole shebang.
Someone remind me that one has to buy a ticket to win the lottery.
Meantime I was just reading through the rulebooks at lunch at work today and there really is a lot of good stuff in there even at such a short page count.
I actually corresponded with SJ about this idea a couple of years ago, because if the price for the IP rights were anywhere within an order of magnitude of the correct value I would be happy to make it happen — if you did it right with the right partners and didn't get greedy, you could probably recover most or all of the money sunk into the initial IP costs. The answer was that the last time anyone checked Thompson wanted such a completely absurd amount of money for the rights that no one other than Bill Gates could bankroll the start of the project, and there is no way on earth the ~2-3000 potential customers could help you recoup your initial investment. The guy is just a fool, but there is nothing to be done about it.
Quote from: Larsdangly;959368The guy is just a fool, but there is nothing to be done about it.
Well, once he shuffles off this mortal coil, his estate will have every reason to squeeze whatever they can out of it as its money for nothing to them. Kind of like all the unreleased Prince recordings we'll be deluged with by his estate.
Rights will revert to Jackson (unfortunately) most likely on his death unless he wills the holdings over to next of kin.
Quote from: Larsdangly;959368I actually corresponded with SJ about this idea a couple of years ago, because if the price for the IP rights were anywhere within an order of magnitude of the correct value I would be happy to make it happen — if you did it right with the right partners and didn't get greedy, you could probably recover most or all of the money sunk into the initial IP costs. The answer was that the last time anyone checked Thompson wanted such a completely absurd amount of money for the rights that no one other than Bill Gates could bankroll the start of the project, and there is no way on earth the ~2-3000 potential customers could help you recoup your initial investment. The guy is just a fool, but there is nothing to be done about it.
Howard Thompson is an interesting character for sure. You can read some of his early Space Gamer editorials where he expresses his strong political ideas. Then you have his feud with Steve Jackson, presumably with some bitterness, and his complete disappearance from the gaming industry. 35 years and counting, he's never made a peep as far as I know. A bit of online sleuthing showed that he was active in Texas atheist circles a decade or two ago, and a couple of forum posters have claimed to know that he's still alive and well. Oh, there was a weird blog which popped up and seemed to be written by a family member, mentioning dad's old gaming endeavors in a bemused fashion. It's gone now.
It would be great if someone could score an interview with the guy, but I don't like their chances. As far as the TFT IP goes, he's clearly not motivated by money - some people just aren't.
If he's not motivated by money, I invite him to sign the rights over to me for one thin dime.
Quote from: Dumarest;959648If he's not motivated by money, I invite him to sign the rights over to me for one thin dime.
If it's any consolation - in an alternate timeline where TFT has been continuously in print from Steve Jackson Games, the upcoming Dungeon Fantasy boxed set is conceivably the 5th edition. Somewhat evolved and gone sideways, but the roots are still there.
Quote from: The_Shadow;959653If it's any consolation - in an alternate timeline where TFT has been continuously in print from Steve Jackson Games, the upcoming Dungeon Fantasy boxed set is conceivably the 5th edition. Somewhat evolved and gone sideways, but the roots are still there.
Good one. I'll stick with my hardcover 3rd edition from that timeline!
Quote from: Dumarest;959655Good one. I'll stick with my hardcover 3rd edition from that timeline!
Yeah, 4e did kinda jump the shark for me when they removed Cidri as the default setting...
Quote from: The_Shadow;959659Yeah, 4e did kinda jump the shark for me when they removed Cidri as the default setting...
But it was kind of cool how they released that Glorantha boxed set...setting off that firestorm of which are better: anthropomorphic Ducks or Prootwaddles?
Does anyone on the forum currently play The Fantasy Trip? I gather a few of you own copies but it sounds like most of them are mothballed!
I play pretty regularly (well, by my middle-age, busy adult standards). It is probably the dominant system I play, followed by some sort of D&D-like OSR hybrid. When I play TFT, I always use some proportion of house rules. But, I've been at this since 1978 and pretty much know what I'm doing with this system, so all the house rules that have survived this long are solid, play tested things.
Quote from: Larsdangly;960312I play pretty regularly (well, by my middle-age, busy adult standards). It is probably the dominant system I play, followed by some sort of D&D-like OSR hybrid. When I play TFT, I always use some proportion of house rules. But, I've been at this since 1978 and pretty much know what I'm doing with this system, so all the house rules that have survived this long are solid, play tested things.
Got any examples of house rules? Maybe I can steal something.
Also, do you play in Cidri? I never have, for whatever reason, although I guess Cidri is so underdeveloped that there is not much difference anyway whether you do or don't, unless you include Prootwaddles and the Mechanicians' Guild.
Hey Dumarest, you might want to take a look at this: The Traveller Trip (https://www.dropbox.com/s/g4f7u9h01nzf3jj/T3.pdf).
Quote from: Black Vulmea;960348Hey Dumarest, you might want to take a look at this: The Traveller Trip (https://www.dropbox.com/s/g4f7u9h01nzf3jj/T3.pdf).
That is very interesting. I just downloaded it to read later. Thanks.
Quote from: Dumarest;960304Does anyone on the forum currently play The Fantasy Trip? I gather a few of you own copies but it sounds like most of them are mothballed!
I plyed in a TFT (with house rules) campain just a few years ago, played some Dark City Games stuff with TFT last year, and just a month or so ago finished a play through of TFT Grailquest. I still might run some of my original TFT campaign set in Cidri, but I converted it to run with GURPS as soon as the first edition of the GURPS Basic Set came out.
Quote from: Dumarest;960314Got any examples of house rules? Maybe I can steal something.
Also, do you play in Cidri? I never have, for whatever reason, although I guess Cidri is so underdeveloped that there is not much difference anyway whether you do or don't, unless you include Prootwaddles and the Mechanicians' Guild.
Sure; I have some pdf's floating around my computer. I'll upload them to dropbox when I get a chance and pm you the link.
Quote from: Larsdangly;960505Sure; I have some pdf's floating around my computer. I'll upload them to dropbox when I get a chance and pm you the link.
Thanks, I'll be very interested in seeing what you've done.
The Traveller Trip is pretty cool! I can see trying that out.