Do you have any tips for city building? Or maybe any good RPG books for city building?
And I don't mean world building, I mean modern day city building. A city with districts (downtown, harbor, nightlife, slums etc.) and buildings in those districts.
I want to use it for my next WoD game, but I can't stand those city books they make. They have usually a very bad layout. You can never guess what you are gonna read based on the chapter titles or the section titles. On top of that they need about 100 words where other games only need 20 words.
Have you checked out Damnation City for Vampire: the Requiem?
Well ... if you want to build contemporary cities, why go to all that work when you can simply steal? Find a city with which none of your players are familiar, and file off the serial numbers. Get a guidebook, copy the Wikipedia article, pull up the yelp.com reviews for its businesses, and there you go.
Like a Vornheim except with modern day elements?
Sometimes you can grab some nice images off of google maps, you can do a print and lay a grid over it.
Well, it certainly wasn't written with any sort of RPG-related use in mind, and it won't give you ready-made answers, but Christopher Alexander's A Pattern Language is a book on real-life city design and architecture.
Chaosium had a RQ Cities supplement which did this for fantasy cities.
For modern cities, have you tried Sim City?
Quote from: The Butcher;731454Have you checked out Damnation City for Vampire: the Requiem?
Yep, but I like Block by Bloody block better. Damnation city suffers from the typical WW problems. Too many words, pretention and I don't need half of the book, because it gives me additional rules. YMMV, but I only like the example Princes in chapter one and the city of million in chapter two. The rest is just blatter to me. Chapter three and four are extra rules, so skip.
Chapter five is actually what I need. But again extra rules on districts and sites, so I skip those too. Redundant districts (slums 1,2,3 and 4) and one building districts (Cathedral, City Hall, City Court) are also getting a skip. So all in all is about 10-20% of the book useful to me.
Just checking if there is something else that is a little bit less wordy and more practical. I figured I only need six districts. Three residential (poor, suburbs, rich) and three commercial (industrial, nightlife, downtown). I could do without the entire first part in Damnation City about the Neo-Feudal society. It's a lot of words about several different subjects. I get lost in it, it gets me in the wrong headspace.
Use Google to search for images of older cities, especially ones like Bologna where the medieval part of town is still standing:
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_N7rE_MLfrq8/ShcAxBJnegI/AAAAAAAACD0/FWBoysfaR98/s1600/bologna.jpg)
Or you can just pick one that looks cool.
You can use some of these as-is, or use them as an outline to draw your own. I've found that it's usually much easier to draw the rivers, streets, hills, etc, then place the buildings.
Another thing to keep in mind is that unless you have a LOT of free time, there's really no need to do a detailed map of an entire town, or to worry about getting the scale 100% right. Just a general layout and a scenic pic is all you need.
(http://i-love-riquewihr.com/images/A_323_9.jpg)
I found a cool city build guide in The Dresden files RPG. It is more practical, because it works with themes (wod too) and threats (wod uses mood instead). Of course the threat is always related to the theme (and the mood). A threat can be a physical threat (orcs wanna kill you) or a mental threat (find the serial killer) or a social one (the elder is denying you to feed on the best feeding grounds).
I think this is something that is usually absent in the wod. It doesn't have a lot of external conflicts. Therefor it lacks focus sometimes. It isn't always clear what to do with it. Not like D&D or even Cthulhu. Of course the social threat is the most common in most wod games (vampire, mage, changeling), because it's a game of political intrigue. But they never present it in a way that has focus.
They hardly ever write something like: "The Mekhet Primogen has killed another vampire and wants to frame you for it.". Then you immediately have a plot and a theme (No one can be trusted.) and a mood (Dark conspiracy maybe?). It isn't that black and white.
Quote from: jan paparazzi;731611Yep, but I like Block by Bloody block better. Damnation city suffers from the typical WW problems. Too many words, pretention and I don't need half of the book, because it gives me additional rules.
No, that's actually a good rundown. :D If a tad more negative than my own take on it. I liked the new rules and the city-building guidelines, though. The writing, well, you don't read and play WW for 20 years without developing some serious anti-pretension antibodies.
I agree that the one-building distrcits are dumb, but there's no reason you can't combine features from several in a single district.
And yeah, the Princes are awesome.
Quote from: The Butcher;731749No, that's actually a good rundown. :D If a tad more negative than my own take on it. I liked the new rules and the city-building guidelines, though. The writing, well, you don't read and play WW for 20 years without developing some serious anti-pretension antibodies.
I agree that the one-building distrcits are dumb, but there's no reason you can't combine features from several in a single district.
And yeah, the Princes are awesome.
Well, I am mostly glad I can actually say this without igniting a flame war. I have to admit that it is a lot better now the WW forum is axed and the Onyx Path forum replaced it. Same people, different attitude somehow.
Anyway, Damnation City is unique, but a mixed bag for me. So is Danse Macabre. The nwod books that I really like are Requiem for Rome/Fall of the Camarilla, Blood & Smoke and the Clanbooks. Outside of vampire I like the cores of Changeling and Hunter, Slasher and the Night Horrors series in general. I didn't like the first editions of vampire and mage at all. Really bland. I also like the God Machine Chronicle, but I find it a shame I still don't what it is exactly.
Travel guides?
Quote from: RPGPundit;732093Travel guides?
Wikitravel is really good. Better than wikipedia for city building in RPG's. Is am now using it for building a Chicago setting. It is nicely set up in districts and it doesn't give too much info on uninteresting residential districts.
Quote from: jan paparazzi;732189Wikitravel is really good. Better than wikipedia for city building in RPG's. Is am now using it for building a Chicago setting. It is nicely set up in districts and it doesn't give too much info on uninteresting residential districts.
Mm, I would have considered travel guides, but yeah, Wikitravel has a significant advantage: you can pull up a particular article, cut and paste it into your own word processor, and change things around more easily to fit in a city printout.
If you check this link (http://wikitravel.org/en/Chicago), you will see wikitravel nicely gives a short characterization of each district. You can also click on each neighbourhood for additional info. It details everything that stands out, like historical districts, downtown, industrial works, nightlife areas, city parks etc.
I just know a few years back I'd been given a European travel guide that had really excellent maps of the city centers of various European cities of note; don't remember the title or publisher, however.
Well, for WoD games I prefer maps like these:
- Moscow (http://rpgplotter.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/moscow_vampire_map.pdf)
- Ravensbridge (https://www.google.nl/search?q=vampire+requiem+map&espv=210&es_sm=93&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=byAKU6CgGamc0AWWr4DYBw&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAQ&biw=1440&bih=762#q=requiem+ravensbridge&tbm=isch&facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=0gtWdkhjJ7PqrM%253A%3B8x6XbShzt6_6rM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Ffc00.deviantart.net%252Ffs71%252Ff%252F2010%252F345%252F6%252F0%252Fravensbridge_colour_map_by_roma_naim-d34n6mf.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.shadownessence.net%252Fforum%252Findex.php%253F%252Ftopic%252F33868-wod-ravensbridge%252F%3B1684%3B1191)
- Miranbrück (http://d6ideas.com/?p=1931&lang=en)
I found a few other city books. There is the Bedlam setting for M&M. There also is a cheaper edition Bedlam City Basics available for a few bucks. I got my hands on the Haven City of Violence RPG. I believe it's two or three bucks. A pretty run of the mill game, but the city setting is very clear and well done.
Then this thing. You see, I like Deadlands. So I bought the Deadlands Noir edition. To my surprise there is a New Orleans setting in there. And it's really good. The weird thing is I like it a lot better than the WW New Orleans city books. Both the old and the new. But it has roughly the same content.
So what is it then? The By Night books aren't bad at all. But they suffer from WW's usual problems. Too many words and bad layout. I think it's mostly that. In the Deadlands Noir book you can easily see which neighbourhood belongs to which district. That way it's easy to get a grip on the setting. And you can decide the amount of detail in your city. For a lot of detail you include the nieghbourhoods, for a little bit less detail you stick to the districts. So it's all about getting a clear overview on the content.
I don't know if this is usuful for anyone, but anyway I recommend Deadlands Noir. I am gonna check out the Companion book as well.
For city building go back to the base models for city topography. So Burgess, Hoyte, Ullman etc.
I find that Hoyte's sector model works best.
generally what I would do for a fastasy city is take a map of a european medieval quarter, Dubrovnik, Sienna , whatever, apply the Hoyte sector mode as an overlay based on the shape and size of buildings roadways etc and then add a sprinkling of fantasy over the top.
For a modern city I just use google maps.
Much as I may malign the game... d20 Gamma World had one expansion book that had this really nifty idea.
Communities as Characters.
The players worked together to stat out their base town. The town had skills and feats, could level up and had internal dynamics. It was a great system buried in a bad reimagining of a game setting in a game frought with mechanical problems.
It should have been adapted to a fantasy setting with more fleshed out rules for city to city interaction.
Quote from: The Butcher;731454Have you checked out Damnation City for Vampire: the Requiem?
Damnation City is an awesome book for *any* RPG concerning how to make a City, and make it its own character. Good call!
Quote from: jibbajibba;733333For city building go back to the base models for city topography. So Burgess, Hoyte, Ullman etc.
I find that Hoyte's sector model works best.
generally what I would do for a fastasy city is take a map of a european medieval quarter, Dubrovnik, Sienna , whatever, apply the Hoyte sector mode as an overlay based on the shape and size of buildings roadways etc and then add a sprinkling of fantasy over the top.
For a modern city I just use google maps.
Most districts correspond with that. There is a central bussiness district, a lower class, middle class (suburbs) and higher class district. And an industrial. I personally always add a nightlife district or tourism zone with lots of restaurants, shops, bars and clubs. For the world of darkness or vampire that's perfect. The problem with WoD books is that they never make a clear distinction between districts. They just start rambling about everything and nothing. It actually makes it harder to come up with five or six areas each with their own personality.
Quote from: jan paparazzi;733492Most districts correspond with that. There is a central bussiness district, a lower class, middle class (suburbs) and higher class district. And an industrial. I personally always add a nightlife district or tourism zone with lots of restaurants, shops, bars and clubs. For the world of darkness or vampire that's perfect. The problem with WoD books is that they never make a clear distinction between districts. They just start rambling about everything and nothing. It actually makes it harder to come up with five or six areas each with their own personality.
That's why they are the definitive models of geographic construction of cities :)
If you really want to build a city fromt eh ground up then just run it through from origins.
The city was founded 300 years ago by Dutch trappers who used the river to get intot eh interior where they hunted beaver and elk. 50 years later the city was captured by the French who exploited the deep natural harbour and abundant forests to establish a naval base that they used to build ships in a number of minor shuffles with the British. The British finally captured the town and burn out he ship yards in the mid 1850s. The British expanded trade and build the university and new civic buildings before independance in 1902.
So now you can build the city. The orinal Dutch bits will be gone but the centre of the town will be on the river where their trading point was as opposed to on the high buff where the air is better or on the docs. The French woudl ahve established a rich residential and light industrial zone round this and the street names and local population will have a distictly French feel. then the British will have build a central plaza area with neo-colonial townhall, museum etc. they will have renewed the docs and set up teh harbour front which is now either desintigrated into old run down warehouses or has been gentrified to a load of yuppie lofts and starbucks. riff from there.
Or just pick a city that already exists :)
I will be using Chicago, but this advice helps and wikitravel is also useful.
Chicago South and West side or lower class. The North side is upper class and the Far North is middle class/suburbs. Chicago Far South is industrial. South West used to be meatpacking and South East steel.
not sure if this is what you are looking for but maybe:
- Runequest's CITIES (chart-based rather than text; section on populating villages and cities, might be adaptable for modern day)
- GURPs 'City Stats' (might be able to find something in here, or at least get some ideas about what to consider)
RuneQuest Empires and Guilds, Factions and Cults also provide a mini-game for running communities and groups as "characters" that interact with each other. Pretty handy stuff if that's the game you're looking for ...
I was thinking you could build a random city generator based on a number of tables.
it woudl be better if it were computerised but tables would do.
Start with the reason it was founded, port, crossroads, defensive choke point, market, all the usual options. Then roll for the central zone, then basically roll for each other zones using a tile kind of model.
Easier to do for fantasy cities as they are smaller.
About 12 tabels would let you generate the different sections of town and define its rough shap, the computer program could of course map the wholetown and even populate it it you wanted it to.
Might be a worthwhile endeavour
One of my favorite things to note is the difference between old, often rather organic city "planning," and new, very artificial city planning. Comparing older Asian or European cities versus very recent American cities (especially if a lot has been remade in the past 200 years) is a great study in contrasts. The latter has street grids, ideas on civic space and parade routes, massive thoroughfares, mass transit, etc. (A good exception example would be China's old imperial city grids.)
Old travel guides -- often available on the cheap at library sales -- are another resource. Those are good for noting how city districts are grouped and designated. Sometimes what once was planned for one function ends up in practice being spliced between other districts anchors. Travel guides are a great source for categories and examples of these regional anchors (parks, museums, malls, temples, & universities) and the flavor bits that these tend to attract.
To further comment on Opaopajr's remarks.. depending on how much of a time suck you want this to be,
General 'city building' :
In terms of cities from a designing perspective, the first book I think I would recommend is Design of Cities- by Edmund Bacon
For one book on the history of city planning, I would probably recommend The City Shaped: Urban Patterns and Meanings Through History by Spiro Kostof. But it deals with a timeframe much larger than you can concerned with here. Nonetheless, I think it gives a great sense of how cities develop.
If your local library has the OOP series 'Planning and Cities' put out by the Publisher George Braziller, you might check this series out.
For maps, there is the David Rumsey Historical Collection (http://www.davidrumsey.com/)
Specific to the OP (re: Chicago):
I found a few floor plans for 1920s Chicago Projects (http://tinypic.com/r/2dili15/8) (Marshall Field Gardens and Michigan Boulevard Gardens) that I scanned and uploaded, if you have some use for them.
This animated map of Chicago growth from 1850 to 1990 (http://tigger.uic.edu/depts/ahaa/imagebase/chimaps/chiang.gif) is pretty neat (the animation is a bit slow..) the individual maps can be found here: http://tigger.uic.edu/depts/ahaa/imagebase/chimaps/mcclendon.html
1956 Chicago map (http://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~212219~5500294:Shell-Map-of-Metropolitan-Chicago--?sort=Pub_List_No_InitialSort%2CPub_Date%2CPub_List_No%2CSeries_No&qvq=q:shell;sort:Pub_List_No_InitialSort%2CPub_Date%2CPub_List_No%2CSeries_No;lc:RUMSEY~8~1&mi=123&trs=193) from the David Rumsey collection.
A lot of tips. Thanks!
What has been working for me till now are:
- The city models (Burgess, Hoyt, Ullman/Harris)
- Wikitravel: clear overview of the city districts and a corresponding map.
- Deadlands Noir: again a clear overview of the city districts
What hasn't been working for me is the WoD city descriptions. They do more or less the same. They also try to describe the city districts and neighbourhoods, but somehow it's hard for me to get a clear overview of city just by glancing over the book.
I don't really know what it is. Maybe it's their way of nuancing everything instead of exaggerating the characteristics of each area. Or maybe the unclear layout of the books. They sometimes use section titles for districts, sometimes they use it for neighbourhoods and sometimes they use one section title for for two neighbourhoods at once. Or they use a section title for the local university or the public transportation. It might be my autistic side or whatever, but that drives me nuts.
On the subject of travel-oriented city guides, well, Frommer's (http://www.frommers.com/) is free and while I find it more useful for actual travel planning than campaign planning. But there are usually a few good headings: "neighborhoods in brief" gives you a rough feel of the city's layout, there are notes on services such as communications, transportation and healthcare, and sometimes even a decent historical summary (that should be good enough for anyone playing a resident of the city).