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Any Christians out there?  I'm planning to run a game of Kult.  I figured this forum is as good a place as any to get fellow Christian perspectives on the game and more specifically the Kult Tarot cards.  I'm assuming if I post this on rpg.net I would be inundated with all types of twattery from atheists. We're gamers so obviously we never bought into that satanic panic nonsense.   To me Kult is not blasphemy because it's just a horror setting and for gaming the tarot cards aren't real.  However i always stay clear of actual occult stuff.  I would never use tarot for actual divination and wouldn't mess with for example a Ouija board but the Kult Tarot cards look like a cool way to play the game.  I'm curious to hear other Christian thoughts on this matter. 

Fairly traditional Catholic here, and going by the Catechism, yes, as long as the cards are used strictly for entertainment purposes within the game you'll be perfectly OK. Tarot cards are just sets of symbols and tools -- they present no spiritual danger as long as you don't use them in any kind of real-world occult exercise.

One caveat to consider is whether there any people in the group who might get hooked on the idea of using them for real-world divination after using them that way in the game -- children, say, or people with extant unhealthy interest in the occult. But that is obviously going to depend on who exactly you're gaming with, so that has to be your judgement call.

My thoughts as this bug me now and then.

1: Are the cards straight up real Tarot cards? Or are they some sort of custom set? Like Ravenlofts?

If they are real Tarot cards then we get into the tricky part. Otherwise its a problem only for the religious lunatics who give everyone else a bad name.

2: Are the cards used to do actual tarot patterns? Or are they used as just a fancy randomizer? Ravenloft again has you lay the cards out in a fake tarot pattern. Lace and Steel just uses the cards as a randomizer.

If the game uses real patterns then things get alot more trickier. But still not a full problem unless the next factor comes up.

3: Is the DM expected to actually make divinations and readings? Are the cards supposed to be handled like real Tarot cards?

If yes then you need to stop and look really closely at this as now you are on the edge of the precipice. Stuff like this that employs the real trappings of the occult at every step make me very leery. That is way too much for just an RPG. And feels really fiddly too.

Everyone has their thresholds. The line they will not cross. I'll present some solutions with the cravat that sure enough someone out there will flip out even at these fixes. The solution then is to remove that player as you never know how deranged they really are or what hell they can cause for you.

1: Replace the tarot with standard playing cards. You lose the ambiance but gain peace of mind.
2: Change the patterns to not be real ones. Again you lose the ambiance but gain peace of mind.
3: Drop the divination part, or at least drop the rules of handling the cards and so on. This has stopped being ambiance and is drifting uncomfortably  into the occult. You lose nothing and gain alot of peace of mind.

Hope that helps.

The game is very adult oriented so my players would be mature.  Playing with unstable delusional people can hopefully be avoided. 

From my limited knowledge of tarot the similarities are that you interpret the cards and they have similar structure of suites and arcana symbols.  I don't believe the cards could be used for actual tarot since the symbols are specific to the major NPC archons and death angels.  Their characteristics are explained in the game and I guess that's how you come up with random stories, characters, items, locations, ect.  There are also less cards than a normal tarot and you rely on a chart to come up with "readings".  I'm not a big fan of how the publisher is marketing the deck though.  Their video and material on it suggest some kind of arcane power behind them but that's probably just theatrics. 

I look at only as an interesting game aid and performance prop.  The equivalent to a dice roll table but with imagination powering it. Nothing more.  I got them when the core book came out just because I was so hyped for the new edition.  It only occurred to me later that it could potentially pose a problem.  To be honest when I first actually thought of the implications my first instinct is to play it safe and just not mess with it. However the more I think about it I'm almost feeling like my hesitation is a little silly.  I'm thinking "do these dumb cards have more power than my faith?"   Nah.  Still if anyone thinks otherwise I would be fascinated to hear it and would definitely be sympathetic to your opinions on this.  Spiritual dangers are not to be taken too lightly imo. 

Drawing lots is the only biblically accepted form of divination (forgetting book, chapter, & verse, but I know it's there from 12+ years of Christian school) -- and Tarot is literally drawing lots with various symbols per lot. As is Chaldean lot drawing, Chinese I Ching, Yoruba Ifa, Persian sparrow-drawn poetry couplet fortunes, etc.  8) I hope that puts you at ease, especially since you are not even using them for divination.

Technically goat intestines, bone/cola nut/coin/etc. tossing, sticky/slippery disk rubbing, pendula, dice, dousing rods and many others that derive sequential "yes/no" values are also different media of the same "lot drawing" concept. Gazing (water, mirror, oculus, crystals), Guiding (Ouija planchette, dousing, pendulum), and Channeling (opening to received knowledge via clair-audience/voyance/utterance/sentience) are the ones that are forbidden due to concerns of possession during opening. You are most likely not doing anything not-biblical, to those who actually understand the words in the text. :D Many churches do get overzealous, so don't be surprised when they persist even though they are in translation err.

Prophesy is technically not risky divination per se. Neither is dream interpreting. These are seen as the divine deliberately communicating to the human, not the human risking opening up to reach the divine. The latter is perceived as exposing one human to "the astral" unguided and unprotected, which can end up with a 'phone call' answered by anyone in between, who may have ill intent. Hope that helps!

(Yes, there were USA Christian communities who forbade D&D because of the dice, but allowed its early lot drawing of chits. No, don't ask me to square that round peg. Just accept that some people are persnickety in literal interpretation. :) )

I am a Roman Catholic.  I agree that the Tarot cards, not being used for divination, are not intrinsically bad, it's a person using them in that way, but creating something that many people use for occult practices is something I wouldn't create, becuase I made something that is traditionally made for that purpose, and has the potential to be abused in such a manner.  Thank you for listening to views on the topic respectfully.

Quote from: myleftnut on July 17, 2022, 12:15:29 AM
From my limited knowledge of tarot the similarities are that you interpret the cards and they have similar structure of suites and arcana symbols.  I don't believe the cards could be used for actual tarot since the symbols are specific to the major NPC archons and death angels.  Their characteristics are explained in the game and I guess that's how you come up with random stories, characters, items, locations, ect.  There are also less cards than a normal tarot and you rely on a chart to come up with "readings".  I'm not a big fan of how the publisher is marketing the deck though.  Their video and material on it suggest some kind of arcane power behind them but that's probably just theatrics.

There was a tarot deck released for Mage the Ascension that used the same suits and arcana and broad symbols (upside down guy for the fool, female figures on the Queen cards, etc.).  People who were into tarot said it would lead to dark readings and such, given the dark pictures, but to me it seemed like saying you'd have "dark mathematics" because somebody used a spooky font when typing out multiplication tables.  Personally, I found it a great random element generator when I was stumped for ideas in a game and needing inspiration on the fly.  Up there with the game decks (not tarot!) for Hellas and Torg.

The tarot deck is like a Rorschach test in that it has no inherent truth to it, it's just a tool to start conversations and thoughts (and con folk out of their cash).  It's as accurate a form of divination as bibliomancy involving the Bible (i.e. the practice of opening the bible to a random passage, and then assigning it meaning relevant to your life).  And that's the thing: humans love to find meaning and pattern in chaos.  It's how we make language and math work, it's how our brains are literally designed to work.

In my experience, the people who have problems with divination are the ones who feel their lives are already out of control and terrifying, and are looking for some sort of guidance about what to do next in order to be safe.  But these days they turn to news and internet forums that support a viewpoint they already agree with over playing cards.  You know the people who talk about getting "the real news" and wallow in conspiracy theories (right, left, both sides have these folks)?  Yeah, they're playing tarot, even if their decks are a few cards short.

Quote from: myleftnut on July 17, 2022, 12:15:29 AMSpiritual dangers are not to be taken too lightly imo.

Honestly, I'd worry more about booze, pot, porn, poor diet, poor interactions with others, social anxiety, and a host of other things before I'd worry about the tarot.  Having said all that, different people handle things differently.  Some folks can eat a whole chocolate cake for dinner and maintain a healthy body, other people can't.  Some can drink without problem, others are recovering alcoholics.  Everybody's unique, so maybe your spreads ruin an already unhinged person's life.  I'm doubtful, but you know yours.   

Looking at the deck, it's not being marketed as something that could be used as a 'real' Tarot deck (something that left me uncomfortable with the White Wolf iteration of the Ravenloft Tarokka), so that bit of scandal isn't present. I'm with Stephen--it depends on the group, and if the risk of leading others into sin is a realistic concern. This will, of course, differ with individuals and broader context. I'd have had no problem running a Ravenloft adventure with a Tarokka reading for a random group in the 90s, but I'd be far more hesitant today.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 16, 2022, 08:16:41 PM
Fairly traditional Catholic here, and going by the Catechism, yes, as long as the cards are used strictly for entertainment purposes within the game you'll be perfectly OK. Tarot cards are just sets of symbols and tools -- they present no spiritual danger as long as you don't use them in any kind of real-world occult exercise.

One caveat to consider is whether there any people in the group who might get hooked on the idea of using them for real-world divination after using them that way in the game -- children, say, or people with extant unhealthy interest in the occult. But that is obviously going to depend on who exactly you're gaming with, so that has to be your judgement call.

Greetings!

Yes, I agree. Good approach, Stephen.

As a Christian, I also agree that it is always wise to be cautious and sober with any kind of spiritual matters.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on July 17, 2022, 08:04:01 AM
There was a tarot deck released for Mage the Ascension that used the same suits and arcana and broad symbols (upside down guy for the fool, female figures on the Queen cards, etc.).

Roman Catholic here. I'm going to double down on "use as a randomizer or other non-occult purpose is fine." Indeed, the traditional playing card deck is basically just the minor arcana (swords, cups, wands, coins) stripped of the distinct pictures. There are even card games akin to common ones today that employ the deck as just a more elaborate deck of cards.

The reason I quoted the above was specifically that the MtA also included a booklet that gave each card in the deck an association with some element of the MtA setting and various means of using a set of draws from the deck as an adventure seed generator. That use too is absolutely fine (the metaphysics of MtA are pretty anti-Christian, but that's another matter entirely... seriously, it's easier to play a Catholic Euthanatos* than a member of the Celestial Chorus** that is supposed to be the default Christian mage organization).

It's only when you veer into actual occult practices or provide scandal by suggesting there might be some legitimate basis to the use of the practice to others. One does not want to tempt others to sin after all.

* specifically, they didn't clearly lay it out until the Revised Trad Book, but the Euthanatos paradigm is one of meditation upon and union with godforms. This can syncretise pretty well with certain categories of Catholic mysticism that seeks union with God and a better understanding of His Will through prayer and meditation. You're just choosing to only meditate upon the Triune God and only seeking unity with His Will.

** by contrast, the Chorus' paradigm is that all religions (even pagan ones) are true and just shards of a greater ur-faith where each member is a fragment of a shattered god (i.e. its core tenant is that YOU are God... basically new age paganism with a fake Christian wrapper to lead Christians uncertain of their own faith astray). So, yeah, the death/fate mage faction is actually better at being Catholic than the supposed holy roller faction.

There's a reason I've come to appreciate VtM's cosmology played 100% straight (including the early-edition version of Golconda allowing one to become mortal again... they just have to give up all that unholy power to get it). God only gave Caine immortality so he'd have all the time he'd need to seek forgiveness and repentance... it was Caine out of spite who bargained with the demoness Lilith for unholy power and became the first vampire... which is fairly close to the Dracula story; where Vlad Tepes learned the black arts from Satan at Scholomance and his inhuman powers and weaknesses came from his deal with the Devil.

I have no idea what Kult is.

And yeah, as a Christian, I was brought up on the "Tarot Cards bad" meme as well, so I'm inclined toward suggesting avoiding "the appearance of evil." (1 Thess 5: 22).

But I also don't like Savage Worlds because of the playing cards used for initiative in that game.  But probably not for the reasons one might think!

A) I just wasn't happy with the Savage Worlds Rules, in part because I'm a GURPS snob and Savage Worlds is so basic and simple.  BORING.

B) The last Savage Worlds game also had Falkenstein rules arbitrarily interspersed and I HATE FAlkenstein.  That campaign was and endless exercise of broken rules and absurdity one after another.

So as a result, I started stacking the deck, ensuring that the players got very high initiative cards, while the GM consistently was pulling 2's and 3's for the bad guys.  (The poor player sitting next to the GM also suffered from a poor initiative on occasion).  But seriously?  How is it possible for the bad guys (with 20 initiative slots) to consistently get a string of cards and none of them are higher than a 6?!?!?

It was amazing how often those Jokers would show up in the Players hands.  It seemed like one or two players would get a Joker every round . . . .

Any rate, it's too easy to cheat with cards.

Stick with the dice.

Quote from: Opaopajr on July 17, 2022, 03:49:30 AM
Technically goat intestines, bone/cola nut/coin/etc. tossing, sticky/slippery disk rubbing, pendula, dice, dousing rods and many others that derive sequential "yes/no" values are also different media of the same "lot drawing" concept. Gazing (water, mirror, oculus, crystals), Guiding (Ouija planchette, dousing, pendulum), and Channeling (opening to received knowledge via clair-audience/voyance/utterance/sentience) are the ones that are forbidden due to concerns of possession during opening. You are most likely not doing anything not-biblical, to those who actually understand the words in the text. :D Many churches do get overzealous, so don't be surprised when they persist even though they are in translation err.

Very much so. Our family had, note the had part, quite a few water diviners for some reason. The water finder type. But were persecuted and ended up living off in the middle of fucking no-where. This and first hand experience with the Satanic Panic and other problems has left me with a rather bleak view of the church anymore.

Quote from: myleftnut on July 17, 2022, 12:15:29 AMI look at only as an interesting game aid and performance prop. ...Still if anyone thinks otherwise I would be fascinated to hear it... Spiritual dangers are not to be taken too lightly imo.

They aren't, but as you say, neither are they to be thought inherently more powerful than an informed faith.

One thing to remember is that the degree of psychological obsession which can render someone vulnerable to negative spiritual influences can, in principle, be about anything, not just specifically occult-themed imagery or meaning systems; it's the degree of the obsession that's more important than its particular target, in most cases. As long as everybody knows it's a game and only uses the cards for the game, I'd say everybody should be fine.

(There's a parallel litmus test I've always used to evaluate someone's drinking habits: Can the person, on a reliable basis, stop after having one drink? If he can, he doesn't have a problem.)

Digression coming up.  (but hey, talking Mage in a Kult thread is like talking about X-men in an Avengers thread almost)

Quote from: Chris24601 on July 17, 2022, 12:01:42 PM
* specifically, they didn't clearly lay it out until the Revised Trad Book,

More likely they didn't really decide to make something up until the Revised Trad books.  Mage was and continues to be a trainwreck of a game, and I say this as someone who loved it and spent years playing (and tweaking it).

Quote from: Chris24601 on July 17, 2022, 12:01:42 PM
** by contrast, the Chorus' paradigm is that all religions (even pagan ones) are true and just shards of a greater ur-faith where each member is a fragment of a shattered god (i.e. its core tenant is that YOU are God... basically new age paganism with a fake Christian wrapper to lead Christians uncertain of their own faith astray). So, yeah, the death/fate mage faction is actually better at being Catholic than the supposed holy roller faction.

The Chorus was a complete and utter mess from top to bottom.

You basically have a group of people who know "belief makes reality", and so they go out and find those whose faiths (not to be confused with True Faith, which is a separate thing) are strong enough to let them shape reality.  Then they take those people and say "by the way, your faith is wrong about a lot of stuff, so let us teach you what is really going on.  Jesus?  Yeah, if enough people he wasn't the Son of God, then he wasn't.  Now use your Christian faith to power this rote a Virtual Adept taught you.  Just replace the laptop with candles or something.  It all makes sense because Qabbalists in the Order of Hermes assigned specific Spheres to make it work this way.  Even the guys who don't admit magic exists use a 10-base Sphere system to do their magic."  The Technocracy has a similar problem where their paradigm of science shaping reality doesn't hold water, and you realize the Oracles have dropped their paradigms and just make stuff happen.  At which point the whole game becomes essentially Harry Potter, where certain people have an inherent "magical" quality to them that really has nothing to do with belief making reality after all.  Which might be fine if it wasn't the exact opposite of what the game advertises itself as being about.

And -then- on top of that you have line developers and freelance authors who can't agree on how the systems work and won't really show their work to give you a better understanding of where they're coming from at least.  All packaged up with the Storyteller System which isn't that great a system to start with.  And I haven't even touched how the social commentary seems edgy and profound... if you're a liberal arts major who thinks the world owes you something because you're going mid five figures into debt for a humanities degree and the best job you'll ever land is waiting tables at Chilis.  "Fuck you modern medicine!  I'll use the crystal healing my tattoo artist swears by!  Now, time to play a game where I'm right and can shoot the people who say I'm wrong!"

Rant rant rant. 

So how do you fix it all?

* First of all, the Spheres are a mechanic and only a mechanic.  I respect that ideally each willworker would have their own entire magic system unique to them, and that's an unrealistic goal, but characters in setting don't talk about their Spheres or Sphere ratings any more than they'd say "I have six dots in Willpower and four dots in Firearms, but my first through third health boxes have Xs in them."
* Secondly, the Oracles don't exist (at least not as presented).  There are willworkers who drop foci, sure, but they never drop their paradigm.  No matter how powerful you get, there's some things you simply can't do.  Oracles are mysteries, practically gods to people who can reshape reality at a whim. 
* Third, the Traditions are losing in large part because they literally can't agree about anything other than "we have to stop the Technocracy".  There's small members of each group who try to work together, but it's like bringing together the most devout/extreme examples of a Muslim and a Jew and a Christian and telling them they're all right at the same time, while murderous cyborgs and credit adjusters are hunting them; it's not impossible, but collaboration is almost the exception rather than the norm, and when they do work together it's in a "you go do magic stuff your wrong way, and leave me to do my magic stuff the right way" fashion.
* Fourth, the Trads and Technos are morally gray, the Nephandi are black as fuck (but some mages are labeled such out of politics or misunderstanding without actually being a Nephandus at all), and the Marauders are so detached from Consensual reality (and shared classifications!) as to be beyond human morality (what ethical viewpoint does a rainbow possess?).  For a lot of folks all of this a "duh" sort of thing.  For some though, it needs to be spelled out.  In big glowing letters.  And some of them wrote the books.

I'll be good now.  Just venting about an ex I guess.

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on July 18, 2022, 08:55:56 AM
Digression coming up.  (but hey, talking Mage in a Kult thread is like talking about X-men in an Avengers thread almost)

  I don't know much about either game, but don't the cosmology of Kult and the Celestial Chorus paradigm have similar Gnostic roots--"Humans are all part of God, trapped in the illusion of creation, and with power over it if they just realize it"? :)

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on July 18, 2022, 09:50:42 AM

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on July 18, 2022, 08:55:56 AM
Digression coming up.  (but hey, talking Mage in a Kult thread is like talking about X-men in an Avengers thread almost)

  I don't know much about either game, but don't the cosmology of Kult and the Celestial Chorus paradigm have similar Gnostic roots--"Humans are all part of God, trapped in the illusion of creation, and with power over it if they just realize it"? :)

Not so much. 

Kult says God is Dead, which is good because when He was alive He hated you and made all of reality to imprison your divinely powered immortal soul.  Kult also has Jesus planning to start global nuclear war as a way to basically help free the handful of people who will ascend into Enlightenment do so, and too bad for the rest of humanity (by comparison, Buddah found Enlightenment, didn't like it, and now tries to "help" other people by stopping them from finding it and freeing themselves). 

The Celestial Chorus is pretty much what you describe, although they don't talk about reality being an illusion so much (as I recall).

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on July 18, 2022, 10:11:49 AM

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on July 18, 2022, 09:50:42 AM

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on July 18, 2022, 08:55:56 AM
Digression coming up.  (but hey, talking Mage in a Kult thread is like talking about X-men in an Avengers thread almost)

  I don't know much about either game, but don't the cosmology of Kult and the Celestial Chorus paradigm have similar Gnostic roots--"Humans are all part of God, trapped in the illusion of creation, and with power over it if they just realize it"? :)

Not so much. 

Kult says God is Dead, which is good because when He was alive He hated you and made all of reality to imprison your divinely powered immortal soul.  Kult also has Jesus planning to start global nuclear war as a way to basically help free the handful of people who will ascend into Enlightenment do so, and too bad for the rest of humanity (by comparison, Buddah found Enlightenment, didn't like it, and now tries to "help" other people by stopping them from finding it and freeing themselves). 

The Celestial Chorus is pretty much what you describe, although they don't talk about reality being an illusion so much (as I recall).

Sounds pretty damnably like the Christian Gnostic heresy to me. The God who created the material world was an evil prick who trapped our godlike selves in a prison of mortal flesh was destroyed when Jesus revealed his secret truth (give the leaders all your worldly possessions to learn it - seriously, it was the Scientology of its day) of how to escape this the prison by embracing your inner self so you can become a god.

Gnosticism keeps cropping up across the ages (its current iteration is modern scientism/transhumanism complete with the notion that a man can be a woman or an attack helicopter if he just believes it hard enough) because it very much appeals to a certain class of self-appointed elitist because its system states outright that those with the proper self-reflection REALLY ARE the elite who are more enlightened and just better than the poor masses who have not accepted the Gnostic beliefs.

So its also not a surprise it keeps popping up in games and literature where "You're a special snowflake" is part of the appeal.

Quote from: Chris24601 on July 18, 2022, 01:33:42 PM

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on July 18, 2022, 10:11:49 AM

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on July 18, 2022, 09:50:42 AM

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on July 18, 2022, 08:55:56 AM
Digression coming up.  (but hey, talking Mage in a Kult thread is like talking about X-men in an Avengers thread almost)

  I don't know much about either game, but don't the cosmology of Kult and the Celestial Chorus paradigm have similar Gnostic roots--"Humans are all part of God, trapped in the illusion of creation, and with power over it if they just realize it"? :)

Not so much. 

Kult says God is Dead, which is good because when He was alive He hated you and made all of reality to imprison your divinely powered immortal soul.  Kult also has Jesus planning to start global nuclear war as a way to basically help free the handful of people who will ascend into Enlightenment do so, and too bad for the rest of humanity (by comparison, Buddah found Enlightenment, didn't like it, and now tries to "help" other people by stopping them from finding it and freeing themselves). 

The Celestial Chorus is pretty much what you describe, although they don't talk about reality being an illusion so much (as I recall).

Sounds pretty damnably like the Christian Gnostic heresy to me.

My bad.  They're both Gnostic inspired, yes, it's just one is "shiny happy people holding hands" to be closer to God and the other is a foot literally stomping on your soul forever while God screams "FUCK YOU" until He has a heart attack and dies.

Anyway, I failed a reading check.

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on July 18, 2022, 02:30:57 PM
My bad.  They're both Gnostic inspired, yes, it's just one is "shiny happy people holding hands" to be closer to God and the other is a foot literally stomping on your soul forever while God screams "FUCK YOU" until He has a heart attack and dies.

Anyway, I failed a reading check.

  Yes, it sounds like the CC is more late 20th century, crystals and rainbows New Age Neognosticism, whereas Kult is the more 'old school' "The Demiurge is evil and the world is a horrible place" variety. :)

I'm not up to speed on Kult, but here's my take on Tarot cards.  I think as long as they are used for entertainment purposes only, they're probably fine.  What is condemned is divination practices through forces aligned with the the Devil or his emissaries.  Think of King Saul consorting with a medium to try to discern the future outcome.  Game purposes only?  I think if it makes it more fun and no one is actually taking it seriously it should be fine.

Another thing to consider is that Paul tells us not to do things that might lead weaker-minded brethren to sin.  His was in the context of whether it was ok to consume food sold on the secondary market that had originally been sacrificed to idol/other gods.  His point was that the food was fine to consume unless it caused a brother to stumble.  That is, if it caused them to question their faith or seek other faiths, then it was to be avoided.

So, with the tarot cards, if you find that someone in your group starts wondering if they can be used to actually discern things (e.g. - they start to stumble), then maybe lay off and go a different direction.

Just my 2 coppers.

Context is key. Without going off on a blog post sized exposition about Gnosticism that would dwarf anything already said on the subject here, using Tarot in the context of Kult's cosmology strongly requires maturity on the part of the GM and players to keep the false and fictional cosmology and setting of the game completely separate from the real world away from the game. Using a real-world divination tool as part of gameplay could make that more difficult.

I'd lean on the side of caution and simply not play Kult at all.

To me, tarot decks are tools and I use them only for story telling (as in solo role playing games and the like.) 

Just for fun, here's one way that I use them: http://tangent-zero.com/files/FourHouses_Tangent-Zero.pdf

At the end of the day though it boils down to this.

Does it make you uncomfortable using it as is?

If Yes. Then will changing some aspect fix that?

Of No then dont use it. Replace it with something else like a random gen table, etc.

If I came across a game that used the full on complete Tarot aspects then I'd baulk at that and start jettisoning or changing enough that its no longer a problem. And that can be as easy as just not handling the cards 'properly' to break the connection. And maybe swap out the actual patterns for something made up.

EG: change it like Ravenloft did.

The question I generally ask is, "what will you do if it works?"  There are some doors that are more easily openned than they are closed.  Even from an agnostic, psychological stand point, you have to ask yourself if you're ready to accept the potential consequences.

Exactly. One of my aunts could work an ouija board. That got more than a little out of hand. She eventually put the thing away in the attic in true Lovecraftian form. ahem.

Quote from: Omega on July 17, 2022, 03:31:07 PM

Quote from: Opaopajr on July 17, 2022, 03:49:30 AM
Technically goat intestines, bone/cola nut/coin/etc. tossing, sticky/slippery disk rubbing, pendula, dice, dousing rods and many others that derive sequential "yes/no" values are also different media of the same "lot drawing" concept. Gazing (water, mirror, oculus, crystals), Guiding (Ouija planchette, dousing, pendulum), and Channeling (opening to received knowledge via clair-audience/voyance/utterance/sentience) are the ones that are forbidden due to concerns of possession during opening. You are most likely not doing anything not-biblical, to those who actually understand the words in the text. :D Many churches do get overzealous, so don't be surprised when they persist even though they are in translation err.

Very much so. Our family had, note the had part, quite a few water diviners for some reason. The water finder type. But were persecuted and ended up living off in the middle of fucking no-where. This and first hand experience with the Satanic Panic and other problems has left me with a rather bleak view of the church anymore.

:( Aw, that sucks! Yeah, it doesn't take much for people to see how the forbidden can be used as a means to power through accusation. Great gaming fodder for RPGs, but  harsh lesson learnt from our real world exploitations.

It's something why I still love playing with game alignment, because each viewpoint can take the same social institution and see only their worldview in them. Yet it is a dangerous game in real life with real lives in consequence. Just like we can play with combat in a safe pretend way, we can play with worldview and its distorting lens in a safe pretend way. However I can see how it could be an uncomfortable "fun" too close to home.  :(

Great responses.  The references to scripture are especially appreciated.  I have experience with two of the players who are interested and we'll be trying to recruit one or two other strangers.  I'm not really worried about these people being a potential problem since I've found it pretty easy to identify troublemakers.  I'll also do a quick interview to go over the concepts I'll be promoting and talking about anything the player deems too upsetting for them.  I normally don't do that or expect it when I'm a player but for this game I think it has to be discussed. 

I'm gonna answer Omegas thoughts/questions on the matter as I just downloaded the deck (apparently its available for free as a PDF) and looked up the rules on their homepage. This is not so much as a reply to Omega himself as it's just tagging his post for my reply.

Quote from: Omega on July 16, 2022, 09:38:35 PM
My thoughts as this bug me now and then.

1: Are the cards straight up real Tarot cards? Or are they some sort of custom set? Like Ravenlofts?

If they are real Tarot cards then we get into the tricky part. Otherwise its a problem only for the religious lunatics who give everyone else a bad name.

It is not a real deck. It doesnt have 78 cards, it only has 68.
The Major arcana is not the same arcana as from a real Tarot deck. It's major arcana consists of the Archons and the Death angels and have different meanings than a real Tarotcard. It also has 23 cards in its major arcana instead of the 22.

Verdict: If you believe a true tarot deck having supernatural divination powers, be calm, as the Kult tarot deck is not a true tarot deck

Quote from: Omega on July 16, 2022, 09:38:35 PM
2: Are the cards used to do actual tarot patterns? Or are they used as just a fancy randomizer? Ravenloft again has you lay the cards out in a fake tarot pattern. Lace and Steel just uses the cards as a randomizer.

If the game uses real patterns then things get alot more trickier. But still not a full problem unless the next factor comes up.

Looking at the instructions, this might be trickier as the cards are supposed to be placed in a cross pattern resembling a tarot reading. This might concerna some people as it might feel ritualistic. But I think thats just for flavor. It doesnt really matter what pattern one places them in as they're supposed to read in a certain order anyway. If placing the cards as a cross feels wrong, just place them all out in a line 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 before "reading" them.

Quote from: Omega on July 16, 2022, 09:38:35 PM
3: Is the DM expected to actually make divinations and readings? Are the cards supposed to be handled like real Tarot cards?

If yes then you need to stop and look really closely at this as now you are on the edge of the precipice. Stuff like this that employs the real trappings of the occult at every step make me very leery. That is way too much for just an RPG. And feels really fiddly too.

It's not supposed to be a reading or divination. It's just a randomizer using cards. It's not even using a true Tarot deck.

The cards are just drawn in a order to on the fly decide "Who is the bad guy? What are their motives? What are their means?" and so on.

Quote from: Omega on July 16, 2022, 09:38:35 PM
Everyone has their thresholds. The line they will not cross. I'll present some solutions with the cravat that sure enough someone out there will flip out even at these fixes. The solution then is to remove that player as you never know how deranged they really are or what hell they can cause for you.

1: Replace the tarot with standard playing cards. You lose the ambiance but gain peace of mind.
2: Change the patterns to not be real ones. Again you lose the ambiance but gain peace of mind.
3: Drop the divination part, or at least drop the rules of handling the cards and so on. This has stopped being ambiance and is drifting uncomfortably  into the occult. You lose nothing and gain alot of peace of mind.

Hope that helps.

I kept Omegas final words in my reply as its good advice that I agree with . Nobody should do something they feel uncomfortable with.

I wonder if Kult used a non-Tarot deck count deliberately to break the occult connection problem. Its the sort of approach I'd use.
Even if someone flipped out and claimed it was really real occult they could just sit back and point out that no its not.
Or even pare it down to a more easier to produce standard playing card deck count. Though the count they used could have been due to production requirements. But that would be a rather off standard need? I know from working in the CCG biz briefly how some printers require you to have X cards on a sheet. At 68, assuming no extra cards, you could get a 16 x 17 pattern for 4 decks a sheet.

Just one of those old work related curiosities into what the process was behind the decision.

As for the pattern. Its rendered meaningless as the cards arent standard.

Quote from: Omega on July 19, 2022, 08:32:51 AM
I wonder if Kult used a non-Tarot deck count deliberately to break the occult connection problem. Its the sort of approach I'd use.

I think this probably attributes more objective value to the specifics of the tools used than is really important. Strictly speaking, you could use a perfectly ordinary deck of playing cards for divination as long as you worked out your own scheme of symbolic meaning for the cards, and by the standards of the Catechism that would be just as sinful an act as using any classical Tarot deck. It's the conscious choice to try to learn the future through a spiritually-inflected physical medium or procedure, rather than simply praying to God for guidance, which is the danger -- simply making superficial alterations to the makeup or organization of the deck so it's technically no longer a "true" Tarot wouldn't really make much difference to someone determined to use them that way.

Still, if the objective is to head people off from immediately thinking of that option, then anything that makes people less likely to think it will work may not be a bad thing.

Quote from: Omega on July 17, 2022, 03:31:07 PM

Quote from: Opaopajr on July 17, 2022, 03:49:30 AM
Technically goat intestines, bone/cola nut/coin/etc. tossing, sticky/slippery disk rubbing, pendula, dice, dousing rods and many others that derive sequential "yes/no" values are also different media of the same "lot drawing" concept. Gazing (water, mirror, oculus, crystals), Guiding (Ouija planchette, dousing, pendulum), and Channeling (opening to received knowledge via clair-audience/voyance/utterance/sentience) are the ones that are forbidden due to concerns of possession during opening. You are most likely not doing anything not-biblical, to those who actually understand the words in the text. :D Many churches do get overzealous, so don't be surprised when they persist even though they are in translation err.

Very much so. Our family had, note the had part, quite a few water diviners for some reason. The water finder type. But were persecuted and ended up living off in the middle of fucking no-where. This and first hand experience with the Satanic Panic and other problems has left me with a rather bleak view of the church anymore.

My church had no problem with D&D in the '80s. No Satanic Panic there. Rather, it was Pat Robertson's Retarded Quasi-Pentecostal Debatably-Christian Prohibitionist 700 Club that caused all of the problems.

I ignored my catechesis and did get into Ouija boards and Tarot cards in college. I saw some very strange stuff there and I would not touch them today.

Quote from: Timothe on July 19, 2022, 08:18:35 PMI ignored my catechesis and did get into Ouija boards and Tarot cards in college. I saw some very strange stuff there and I would not touch them today.

This is probably against the spirit of the thread, no pun intended, but I'd be interested to hear about this if you felt like talking about it. (If you'd rather not revisit it, of course, no worries.)

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 19, 2022, 09:18:46 PM

Quote from: Timothe on July 19, 2022, 08:18:35 PMI ignored my catechesis and did get into Ouija boards and Tarot cards in college. I saw some very strange stuff there and I would not touch them today.

This is probably against the spirit of the thread, no pun intended, but I'd be interested to hear about this if you felt like talking about it. (If you'd rather not revisit it, of course, no worries.)

I'd like to know too.  From watching a couple YouTube videos from people into tarot I get the impression they're people looking for answers in the wrong places.   Which is also the reason, for myself, have become less hesitant on the original topic since the thread started.  The concern for me is when you seek answers from the occult, something could respond. 

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 19, 2022, 05:19:16 PM

Quote from: Omega on July 19, 2022, 08:32:51 AM
I wonder if Kult used a non-Tarot deck count deliberately to break the occult connection problem. Its the sort of approach I'd use.

I think this probably attributes more objective value to the specifics of the tools used than is really important. Strictly speaking, you could use a perfectly ordinary deck of playing cards for divination as long as you worked out your own scheme of symbolic meaning for the cards, and by the standards of the Catechism that would be just as sinful an act as using any classical Tarot deck.

This is the thought process of the religious nuts. Where anything, and I mean anything even hinting of the supernatural is eeeeevil and must be killed. A standard deck of playing cards is never going to be a functioning Tarot reading device no matter how hard someone tries to delude themselves. So the religious quack should be pointing at the wanna-be tarot reader and yell "loony!" because that is at least accurate in some sense.

Tarot reading and many other occult trappings have some rather specific rules to them. You handle the object just so or its going to break. Alot of occult magic is remarkably fragile. Fuck up even one little step and you at best get nothing. And at worst attract somethings attention.

At the end of the day though I dont care of these things are occult, superscience from atlantis, psionics, subconcious/ID monster dialup, or all nonesense. Some people can make these things work and some people should never be handed a loaded gun. Hell. Some people should never be allowed near RPGs.

Storygamers are proof of that.  8)

Here's the video I was referring to.  Looking again I can't tell if this is officially from the publisher.  I think it's ill advised to market the thing like some supernatural experience.  I don't have statistics but anecdotally I sense a large percentage of role players have some mental illness. 

Quote from: Opaopajr on July 17, 2022, 03:49:30 AM
Drawing lots is the only biblically accepted form of divination (forgetting book, chapter, & verse, but I know it's there from 12+ years of Christian school)

Off the top of my head: they drew lots to decide between the two finalists to replace Judas as apostle #12.

But there was also a lot of prayer in the mix, as they were trying to discern God's will about it.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 16, 2022, 08:16:41 PM
Fairly traditional Catholic here, and going by the Catechism, yes, as long as the cards are used strictly for entertainment purposes within the game you'll be perfectly OK. Tarot cards are just sets of symbols and tools -- they present no spiritual danger as long as you don't use them in any kind of real-world occult exercise.

One caveat to consider is whether there any people in the group who might get hooked on the idea of using them for real-world divination after using them that way in the game -- children, say, or people with extant unhealthy interest in the occult. But that is obviously going to depend on who exactly you're gaming with, so that has to be your judgement call.

At the risk of redundancy, this, and for the same reasons.

Quote from: myleftnut on July 20, 2022, 02:20:58 AM
I don't have statistics but anecdotally I sense a large percentage of role players have some mental illness. 

Last I knew something like more than a quarter of people have mental illnesses.  And you ideally have around 5 people for a TTRPG, so...

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on July 20, 2022, 08:27:02 AM

Quote from: myleftnut on July 20, 2022, 02:20:58 AM
I don't have statistics but anecdotally I sense a large percentage of role players have some mental illness. 

Last I knew something like more than a quarter of people have mental illnesses.  And you ideally have around 5 people for a TTRPG, so...

Mental illness covers a pretty wide spectrum of conditions so I am almost surprised it isn't slightly higher.

Quote from: Charon's Little Helper on July 20, 2022, 04:26:21 AM

Quote from: Opaopajr on July 17, 2022, 03:49:30 AM
Drawing lots is the only biblically accepted form of divination (forgetting book, chapter, & verse, but I know it's there from 12+ years of Christian school)

Off the top of my head: they drew lots to decide between the two finalists to replace Judas as apostle #12.

But there was also a lot of prayer in the mix, as they were trying to discern God's will about it.

That was because both candidates were equally qualified. Basically flip a coin and save us the cost of an election.

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on July 20, 2022, 08:27:02 AM

Quote from: myleftnut on July 20, 2022, 02:20:58 AM
I don't have statistics but anecdotally I sense a large percentage of role players have some mental illness. 

Last I knew something like more than a quarter of people have mental illnesses.  And you ideally have around 5 people for a TTRPG, so...

That's a lot like saying the majority of gamers are overweight...when Ben Stein claimed a few years ago that overweight people are mentally ill.

Quote from: Omega on July 20, 2022, 02:07:12 AMA standard deck of playing cards is never going to be a functioning Tarot reading device no matter how hard someone tries to delude themselves. ... Tarot reading and many other occult trappings have some rather specific rules to them.

Tarot decks weren't created until the 15th century and weren't widely used for divination until the 18th century; I don't think there's any objective "truth" to their meaning or how they're used. To the best of my understanding of Church teaching, it's the intent of the action, the attempt to obtain (scientifically) inaccessible knowledge by methods other than straightforward prayer, that renders one vulnerable to dangerous spiritual influences -- not whether you get the techniques right or not.

QuoteSome people should never be allowed near RPGs.

Well, yes. But that's always been true.  :)

Have not read the whole thread, but I think the Lord is a bit more powerful than a pack of funny playing cards.

Here's my two bit, though I'm sure most of this has already been said ...

If you're not actually using the tarot card for an occult experience, then it's not a sin.

Even so, there are some reasons why you might want to stay away.

Using tarots in a game can acclimate you to their presence, reducing your resistance should you be tempted to use them for occult purposes later.

When others who are into the occult see you using tarots in a game, they might think you a kindred spirit and invite you to do other things, which would be an avoidable temptation.

Personally, the idea of using actual tarots in the game makes me very uncomfortable.  Maybe that's just me, but I think it's more likely to be God telling me don't go there.  When you have such a feeling it's generally smart to listen to it.

Are you guys are seriously worried about using bullshit Tarot cards in an elf game??  :o

No.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on July 21, 2022, 07:34:07 AM
Are you guys are seriously worried about using bullshit Tarot cards in an elf game??  :o

Only if the use is the real thing. Otherwise its either senseless handwringing... or edging dangerously the other direction. Religious nuttery.

That is where I draw the line. Using all aspects of Tarot reading right down to the handling procedures. Otherwise its just a prop no matter how much some might try to claim otherwise. 

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on July 21, 2022, 07:34:07 AM
Are you guys seriously worried about using bullshit Tarot cards in an elf game??

Not in the elf game, no. It's whatever propensity they may have to inspire people into using the real thing outside the game that is being discussed.

That propensity is low and the risk of encountering spiritual danger is low even if someone did, but yes, the Christian faith does teach that that risk is not zero, and that divination via occult means is illicit for both that reason and for the sin of Pride that it represents.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 21, 2022, 02:01:53 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on July 21, 2022, 07:34:07 AM
Are you guys seriously worried about using bullshit Tarot cards in an elf game??

Not in the elf game, no. It's whatever propensity they may have to inspire people into using the real thing outside the game that is being discussed.

That propensity is low and the risk of encountering spiritual danger is low even if someone did, but yes, the Christian faith does teach that that risk is not zero, and that divination via occult means is illicit for both that reason and for the sin of Pride that it represents.

This is as stupid as assuming the rolling of dice in RPGs will lead to gambling.

Quote from: HappyDaze on July 21, 2022, 02:05:05 PM

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 21, 2022, 02:01:53 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on July 21, 2022, 07:34:07 AM
Are you guys seriously worried about using bullshit Tarot cards in an elf game??

Not in the elf game, no. It's whatever propensity they may have to inspire people into using the real thing outside the game that is being discussed.

That propensity is low and the risk of encountering spiritual danger is low even if someone did, but yes, the Christian faith does teach that that risk is not zero, and that divination via occult means is illicit for both that reason and for the sin of Pride that it represents.

This is as stupid as assuming the rolling of dice in RPGs will lead to gambling.

Good point...

Although, I would suspect that a fundamentalist Christian's answer would be something like, 'but dark powers are involved and therefore much more able to tempt the user into going down the route of evil'.

Of course, I don't believe in any of that mumbo jumbo. Tarot cards, astrology, and divination, etc. are pure nonsense as far as I'm concerned. But whatever floats 'yer boat.

It's deeply ironic that those silly little religious comics that prick did back in the 80s telling us rpgers that we were all going down Satan's path to ruin. LOL How the goalposts have changed.

Quote from: Omega on July 21, 2022, 01:28:09 PM
Only if the use is the real thing.

I can't really get on board with that tbh.

Beyond the game, psychics n' shit use the real thing to take money from the gullible IMO. None of that shit works it's all fake.

Quote from: HappyDaze on July 21, 2022, 02:05:05 PM
This is as stupid as assuming the rolling of dice in RPGs will lead to gambling.

There are plenty of non-religious people who have reported bad experiences with occult experimentation who would disagree. And I would not be surprised to hear that part of gambling addiction therapy involves abstaining from games of chance, even when money isn't on the line, so as to avoid triggering established reactions.

That said, as noted, it's a pretty remote possibility and keeping it on a purely fictional entertainment basis is spiritually harmless. But there is such a thing as excessive fantasy getting out of control in risky ways.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 21, 2022, 02:28:08 PM
But there is such a thing as excessive fantasy getting out of control in risky ways.

I'd agree there but it's exceedingly rare. Of course, you can apply that to most media. That said you've got to have a screw loose in the first place to be affected significantly.
I don't believe that the 'occult' has anything to do with it, or has any true power in the real world. YMMV.

I'm a Christian.  This is as dangerous as a comic book or Hammer Horror movie (including The Devil Rides Out), The Exorcist, the phony-baloney "Necronomicon" or any number of meaningless slips of paper or celluloid entertainment.  My Covenant is between God and myself and no work of human imagination intended for entertainment or titillation can interdict that.

People who look to things like this for real-world inspiration or guidance should rethink their lives and I hope they seek actual spiritual insight from the Almighty and not from some bored game designer's word processor.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on July 21, 2022, 02:31:47 PM
That said you've got to have a screw loose in the first place to be affected significantly.

Agreed, and most times it's pretty easy to spot vulnerable people if you look first. But it does help to think about the possibility first, however briefly.

Quote
I don't believe that the 'occult' has anything to do with it, or has any true power in the real world. YMMV.

Well, then you're definitely not the sort of person who would try it in real life in hope of getting something out of it, any more than I would. It's the people who fall between those poles who are the potential risk set -- of falling into bad habits of (literally in this case) magical thinking, if nothing else.

Greetings!

Pagan Witches practice using the Tarot on a regular basis. Along with dancing, chanting, and singing praises to Pagan gods and goddesses. Spellcasting, and a host of mystical, spiritual rituals are regularly taught, embraced, and practiced.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 21, 2022, 02:41:23 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on July 21, 2022, 02:31:47 PM
That said you've got to have a screw loose in the first place to be affected significantly.

who are the potential risk set -- of falling into bad habits of (literally in this case) magical thinking, if nothing else.

That's possible... Assuming they have the propensity for that sort of thing. It could take over your life like drugs, alcohol or just being obsessed with anything.

I've always been fascinated by the occult. But I never tried any of it really. Although I did try a ouija board years ago with my mum, of course, nothing happened.

Quote from: SHARK on July 21, 2022, 02:47:28 PM
Greetings!

Pagan Witches practice using the Tarot on a regular basis. Along with dancing, chanting, and singing praises to Pagan gods and goddesses. Spellcasting, and a host of mystical, spiritual rituals are regularly taught, embraced, and practiced.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

What is the problem with that though, as long as it's all consenting adults and they don't harm anyone?

Quote from: thedungeondelver on July 21, 2022, 02:36:19 PM
My Covenant is between God and myself and no work of human imagination intended for entertainment or titillation can interdict that.
People who look to things like this for real-world inspiration or guidance should rethink their lives and I hope they seek actual spiritual insight from the Almighty and not from some bored game designer's word processor.

Hm... You do you.

But I'm going to play Kult or any other RPG I want. And if 'the almighty' has a problem with that he can come and say it to my face.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on July 21, 2022, 02:51:58 PM

Quote from: SHARK on July 21, 2022, 02:47:28 PM
Pagan Witches practice using the Tarot on a regular basis. Along with dancing, chanting, and singing praises to Pagan gods and goddesses. Spellcasting, and a host of mystical, spiritual rituals are regularly taught, embraced, and practiced.

What is the problem with that though, as long as it's all consenting adults and they don't harm anyone?

Well, that's the entire question -- are they running the risk of opening themselves to dangers they incorrectly think they can handle, or incorrectly think harmless or benevolent?

If you don't believe there's any such supernatural reality, then the answer is obviously no, there's no such risk. My own thinking on that, outside my basic faith, is a variant of Pascal's wager: that would be a Hell of a bad way to find out one was wrong.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on July 21, 2022, 02:31:47 PM

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 21, 2022, 02:28:08 PM
But there is such a thing as excessive fantasy getting out of control in risky ways.

I'd agree there but it's exceedingly rare. Of course, you can apply that to most media.

Including the bible and the Quran, if history is any indication. And that one is probably more reliable than unverifiable anecdotal reports from people who are already predisposed towards casting the occult and spiritual beliefs from other religions and spiritual traditions in an unfavorable light.

Quote from: VisionStorm on July 21, 2022, 03:05:07 PM
Including the bible and the Quran, if history is any indication.

I'd suggest that's veering a little too far away from the original question of the thread.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on July 21, 2022, 02:23:40 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on July 21, 2022, 02:05:05 PM

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 21, 2022, 02:01:53 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on July 21, 2022, 07:34:07 AM
Are you guys seriously worried about using bullshit Tarot cards in an elf game??

Not in the elf game, no. It's whatever propensity they may have to inspire people into using the real thing outside the game that is being discussed.

That propensity is low and the risk of encountering spiritual danger is low even if someone did, but yes, the Christian faith does teach that that risk is not zero, and that divination via occult means is illicit for both that reason and for the sin of Pride that it represents.

This is as stupid as assuming the rolling of dice in RPGs will lead to gambling.

Good point...

Although, I would suspect that a fundamentalist Christian's answer would be something like, 'but dark powers are involved and therefore much more able to tempt the user into going down the route of evil'.

Of course, I don't believe in any of that mumbo jumbo. Tarot cards, astrology, and divination, etc. are pure nonsense as far as I'm concerned. But whatever floats 'yer boat.

It's deeply ironic that those silly little religious comics that prick did back in the 80s telling us rpgers that we were all going down Satan's path to ruin. LOL How the goalposts have changed.

What's even more amusing is to see which idiots are kicking for those goalposts today after years of laughing at the fools that did it the last time.

The reason I started the thread was to get opinions from other Christians on whether mimicking occult practices is dangerous or contrary to scripture or contrary to their doctrine.  I was hesitant of even playing with occult tools.  I'm not the type with the arrogance to think my doctrine is superior to all others so I put the question out there.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 21, 2022, 03:01:11 PM
If you don't believe there's any such supernatural reality, then the answer is obviously no, there's no such risk. My own thinking on that, outside my basic faith, is a variant of Pascal's wager: that would be a Hell of a bad way to find out one was wrong.

But wouldn't god be pissed at the people who were using Pascal's wager? To me, it doesn't reflect true faith or any devotion it's just about covering your own ass just in case there is a hell. Wouldn't god want someone who was at least honest about their feelings?

But to the other point... Even if god was real. Shouldn't people have the right to choose what and how they worship, as in the pagan stuff? Does Christianity have the right to force itself on anyone else, same goes for Islam?

Quote from: myleftnut on July 21, 2022, 04:02:30 PM
I was hesitant of even playing with occult tools.

Why are you afraid of using cards with pictures on them? I mean, there's absolutely no credible evidence that these things actually work let alone 'court the devil'. The bible doesn't mention the use of tarot cards, so where is this irrational fear coming from?

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on July 21, 2022, 07:16:10 PM

Quote from: myleftnut on July 21, 2022, 04:02:30 PM
I was hesitant of even playing with occult tools.

Why are you afraid of using cards with pictures on them? I mean, there's absolutely no credible evidence that these things actually work let alone 'court the devil'. The bible doesn't mention the use of tarot cards, so where is this irrational fear coming from?

I've become very scripture oriented.  A lot of believers get that way eventually.  I'll save the space by just saying there are many passages in the Bible warning against false signs/wonders, divination, ect.  We have been given the gift of reason so I can take the Word seriously and contemplate it without having to be some bible thumping tool.  Not to mention when I think about it, every story I've heard from someone who experienced some freaky occult thing was from an atheist. 

Quote from: myleftnut on July 21, 2022, 08:58:06 PM
We have been given the gift of reason so I can take the Word seriously and contemplate it without having to be some bible thumping tool.  Not to mention when I think about it, every story I've heard from someone who experienced some freaky occult thing was an atheist.

That's fair enough... I mean, if you feel that strongly about something then there's no point in using Tarot (or whatever) if it doesn't seem or feel right.

But on the evidence side of things, those stories are just stories. We had loads of those urban myths about psychics and ouija boards, etc. Kids dying or having terrible accidents after 'dabbling'. There is absolutely no proof that any of them really happened. So for me, I take all those stories with a pinch of salt.

If I saw something 'in the flesh' I'd be happy to change my mind but until then I'm remaining highly skeptical but YMMV.

Quote from: myleftnut on July 21, 2022, 08:58:06 PMNot to mention when I think about it, every story I've heard from someone who experienced some freaky occult thing was from an atheist.

Even if true, that's anecdotal (I've heard stories of people who experienced freaky occult stuff from religious and New Agey types as well) and that doesn't mean that those accounts are necessarily credible or that the bible's or Christian fundamentalist's take on the occult is necessarily the correct one even if some type of unexplained phenomena does exist (which I can't prove, but I may have experienced as well).

Quote
But wouldn't god be pissed at the people who were using Pascal's wager? To me, it doesn't reflect true faith or any devotion it's just about covering your own ass just in case there is a hell. Wouldn't god want someone who was at least honest about their feelings?

But to the other point... Even if god was real. Shouldn't people have the right to choose what and how they worship, as in the pagan stuff? Does Christianity have the right to force itself on anyone else, same goes for Islam?

Last answer on this because this is definitely off topic now, but you're actually right: Pascal's Wager would only be the beginning of a real faith, not the end, and not enough in itself. However, it is in lots of ways still a very good first step, and it's better than not taking the step at all because one is too certain to consider the possibility of being wrong. Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, but it's not the end.

As for the right to choose how one worships, or whether one worships or what one worships, that again is outside the topic so I will say only as a last note that making that choice is one thing; being properly informed about what actions may influence the choice in one direction or another is something else. Certainly someone can have the right to decide, "Hey, I want to try these fortune-telling cards in real life and see if they work," but if someone else sincerely thinks that's a dangerous thing to do, basic conscience suggests they should both say so and avoid making that easy for someone.

DP

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 22, 2022, 02:12:34 PM

Quote
But wouldn't god be pissed at the people who were using Pascal's wager? To me, it doesn't reflect true faith or any devotion it's just about covering your own ass just in case there is a hell. Wouldn't god want someone who was at least honest about their feelings?

But to the other point... Even if god was real. Shouldn't people have the right to choose what and how they worship, as in the pagan stuff? Does Christianity have the right to force itself on anyone else, same goes for Islam?

Last answer on this because this is definitely off topic now, but you're actually right: Pascal's Wager would only be the beginning of a real faith, not the end, and not enough in itself. However, it is in lots of ways still a very good first step, and it's better than not taking the step at all because one is too certain to consider the possibility of being wrong. Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, but it's not the end.

As for the right to choose how one worships, or whether one worships or what one worships, that again is outside the topic so I will say only as a last note that making that choice is one thing; being properly informed about what actions may influence the choice in one direction or another is something else. Certainly someone can have the right to decide, "Hey, I want to try these fortune-telling cards in real life and see if they work," but if someone else sincerely thinks that's a dangerous thing to do, basic conscience suggests they should both say so and avoid making that easy for someone.

But is it really dangerous? There's no evidence to suggest it is and this applies to using Tarot cards in a game (or whatever the pagan thing may be). Is it really someone's conscience or are they trying to preach to others because they feel that they should?

I get it if you have a friend who's got a drinking problem or an eating disorder. Then you are obliged to help it's the right thing to do.

But trying to say that being a pagan, witch or using cards is dangerous to someone's soul or is wrong is not anyone's call to make but their own in my view. Assuming, as I said before, that it's all about consensual adults and no one is harming anyone else.

Use the Tarot cards if you want, or if you feel genuinely threatened (which may affect your mental health) then I'd suggest the OP leave them be. But not for the supernatural reasons he was talking about.

 ;D Proverbs! Apparently Proverbs 16, specifically 16:33! (And then apparently a whole bunch of other areas dealing with the prophets, etc.)

Here we go, here's a website called (early church history dot org) that gives a good compilation of its precedence. Didn't follow much else of the website so if it explodes into salesmanship, offense, or whatever, I didn't know and I expect you to be mature adults with discernment.  ;D Yes, it is a cruel expectation that goes against the Signs of the Times. /cue Prince's song.

Here's a link to the compilation from said website, hope it helps!
https://earlychurchhistory.org/beliefs-2/casting-lots-in-the-bible/

As for comfort during a game, remember we are all comprised of individuals as well as various sizes of concentric, overlapping, and interlocked community circles. There's no right answer for it is inherent in such a social animal with higher cognition to need to juggle competing and even contradictory expectations into something livable for themselves. Y'know, like religious mysteries! :)

Do what you need to feel OK, and be open to let others gracefully bow out for their own needs.  8) Adulting is hard. There's no perfect rules yet from over thousands of years of trying all over the world.

It ain't forbidden. But it got a stigma. Figure it out for you and yours and be ready to accept its consequences.  ;) You'll be fine, especially if the intent is sincere as a toy and prop.

Quote from: HappyDaze on July 21, 2022, 02:05:05 PM
This is as stupid as assuming the rolling of dice in RPGs will lead to gambling.

Guess what. There are places and whole countries that still use the "dice=gambling" excuse to ban RPGs.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on July 21, 2022, 02:26:24 PMI can't really get on board with that tbh.

Beyond the game, psychics n' shit use the real thing to take money from the gullible IMO. None of that shit works it's all fake.

For me its effectively "the thought that counts" and a dash of "why take chances?" and a good bit of personal experience with these things and no desire to push that line.

Its also for me a litmus test to tell if someones going to be a religious kook over it.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on July 21, 2022, 02:31:47 PM
I'd agree there but it's exceedingly rare. Of course, you can apply that to most media. That said you've got to have a screw loose in the first place to be affected significantly.
I don't believe that the 'occult' has anything to do with it, or has any true power in the real world. YMMV.

Not as rare as we'd prefer. LARPing seems to attract the worst of these.

Quote from: Omega on July 23, 2022, 03:59:24 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on July 21, 2022, 02:31:47 PM
I'd agree there but it's exceedingly rare. Of course, you can apply that to most media. That said you've got to have a screw loose in the first place to be affected significantly.
I don't believe that the 'occult' has anything to do with it, or has any true power in the real world. YMMV.

Not as rare as we'd prefer. LARPing seems to attract the worst of these.

There are definitely a few weirdos in that LARP stuff.

Christians have thoughts? Don't they just follow their made up instruction manual? Usually badly.

If the tarot cards are a potential problem, you could always insist on the game using an X-card too. Then, tap away.  8)

Quote from: HappyDaze on July 23, 2022, 09:41:50 AM
If the tarot cards are a potential problem, you could always insist on the game using an X-card too. Then, tap away.  8)

;D

Quote from: HappyDaze on July 23, 2022, 09:41:50 AM
If the tarot cards are a potential problem, you could always insist on the game using an X-card too. Then, tap away.  8)

;D ;D

I'm guessing there's a few people on here who would not be potential customers of The Invisible College then. Though I'll note that in that RPG, while the magic is all based on concepts from real world occultism, none of it is actually "practiced" in any way in play. You won't become an occultist because you're playing a game.

Quote from: Leon_ap_Hywel on July 23, 2022, 07:52:40 AM
Christians have thoughts? Don't they just follow their made up instruction manual? Usually badly.

Considering how much of our modern intellectual world is based on Christianity, and how much of our intellectual world derives from said instruction manual, yes they certainly do have thoughts.

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 23, 2022, 10:24:37 AM
I'm guessing there's a few people on here who would not be potential customers of The Invisible College then.

Ironically, I just bought a copy a few days ago and am very much looking forward to it arriving in the mail.

Though it would be amusing if the obligatory anti-lawsuit disclaimer read something like, "Don't try any of this stuff in real life. It either won't work and will just waste your time and tick you off, or it will work in which case you're about to have way bigger problems than whatever made you try it in the first place. Either way, it's not our fault, so go get help."

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 23, 2022, 10:25:28 AM

Quote from: Leon_ap_Hywel on July 23, 2022, 07:52:40 AM
Christians have thoughts? Don't they just follow their made up instruction manual? Usually badly.

Considering how much of our modern intellectual world is based on Christianity, and how much of our intellectual world derives from said instruction manual, yes they certainly do have thoughts.

Didn't Christians pretty much lift all those intellectual elements right out of Plato and Aristotle, though? It's not like the philosophical elements of Christianity arouse out of a vacuum of Abrahamic purity. Most of the Western intellectualism people attribute to Christians these days comes from pagan Greeks and enlightenment thinkers who were often critical of church dogma.

Any opinions on using a ouija board as a random adventure generator?
;D

Quote from: DocJones on July 23, 2022, 01:31:03 PM
Any opinions on using a ouija board as a random adventure generator?
;D

That it would take way too long to be worth the effort?  ???

Quote from: VisionStorm on July 23, 2022, 10:55:17 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 23, 2022, 10:25:28 AM

Quote from: Leon_ap_Hywel on July 23, 2022, 07:52:40 AM
Christians have thoughts? Don't they just follow their made up instruction manual? Usually badly.

Considering how much of our modern intellectual world is based on Christianity, and how much of our intellectual world derives from said instruction manual, yes they certainly do have thoughts.

Didn't Christians pretty much lift all those intellectual elements right out of Plato and Aristotle, though? It's not like the philosophical elements of Christianity arouse out of a vacuum of Abrahamic purity. Most of the Western intellectualism people attribute to Christians these days comes from pagan Greeks and enlightenment thinkers who were often critical of church dogma.

Don't you know Christian's invented everything, even their own god! Not at all based on a god from someone else's religion who was probably also ripped off from older religions.

Nope original fairytale all around.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 23, 2022, 03:10:29 PM

Quote from: DocJones on July 23, 2022, 01:31:03 PM
Any opinions on using a ouija board as a random adventure generator?
;D

That it would take way too long to be worth the effort?  ???

It would completely and utterly fail as a random anything.

And ouija board when its actually functioning is everything but random.

I am though surprised no one has tried press-ganging one of these entities into being the DM or an extra player. Slow as heck but would make the perfect Call of Cthulhu GM.

Quote from: Omega on July 24, 2022, 12:54:47 AM

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 23, 2022, 03:10:29 PM

Quote from: DocJones on July 23, 2022, 01:31:03 PM
Any opinions on using a ouija board as a random adventure generator?
;D

That it would take way too long to be worth the effort?  ???

It would completely and utterly fail as a random anything.

And ouija board when its actually functioning is everything but random.

I am though surprised no one has tried press-ganging one of these entities into being the DM or an extra player. Slow as heck but would make the perfect Call of Cthulhu GM.

You could always try using a Magic 8 Ball to GM a total sandbox.

Quote from: Leon_ap_Hywel on July 23, 2022, 06:00:36 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on July 23, 2022, 10:55:17 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 23, 2022, 10:25:28 AM

Quote from: Leon_ap_Hywel on July 23, 2022, 07:52:40 AM
Christians have thoughts? Don't they just follow their made up instruction manual? Usually badly.

Considering how much of our modern intellectual world is based on Christianity, and how much of our intellectual world derives from said instruction manual, yes they certainly do have thoughts.

Didn't Christians pretty much lift all those intellectual elements right out of Plato and Aristotle, though? It's not like the philosophical elements of Christianity arouse out of a vacuum of Abrahamic purity. Most of the Western intellectualism people attribute to Christians these days comes from pagan Greeks and enlightenment thinkers who were often critical of church dogma.

Don't you know Christian's invented everything, even their own god! Not at all based on a god from someone else's religion who was probably also ripped off from older religions.

Nope original fairytale all around.

Oh for fuck's sake.  Yes, we get it, Christians are dumb and bad, atheism is smart and good.  Nobody has ever made a point as well formulated and impactful as you have.  Thanks ever so much for sharing your unique and insightful insights that will surely change someone's mind.

I mean fuck, you're just plucking the lowest hanging comedic fruit too.  Lazy, obvious, polite-smile-at-the-pathetic-SOB tier humor.  And for what?  You're not getting thumbs or likes or any other "look at me, I'm so clever" internet cool kid points.  Hell, I think the thread is stupid as shit too, but (until now) I at least had the etiquette to keep my mouth shut about it.  (EDIT: to the OP, I think lots of threads are stupid as shit.  Don't take it too personally.)

Come back when the OP is hand-wringing about how their faith won't let them play with "the gays" or something.  What?  The OP wouldn't do that?  "But he's a Christian!  He has to!1!!  Says every bigoted atheist who needs a reason to justify to themselves why they act like jack-offs.

Evangelical atheists are still evangelical, and evangelical is just a synonym for "loud mouthed asshole who everyone wishes would shut the fuck up".  So if you dropped out of the thread we'd all be better for it, and you'd quit giving smart intelligent atheists a bad image.

They're Christian, they'll forgive me...the instructions manual says so.

Quote from: Leon_ap_Hywel on July 24, 2022, 11:02:25 AM
They're Christian, they'll forgive me...the instructions manual says so.

Repent or be purified by fire!

I'm Christian and played a game at GenCon which used tarot cards for some random stuff although I cannot remember the name of the system.
I did not find it problematic as there were no readings by the DM nor did he try speaking with the dead.

Quote from: VisionStorm on July 23, 2022, 10:55:17 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 23, 2022, 10:25:28 AM

Quote from: Leon_ap_Hywel on July 23, 2022, 07:52:40 AM
Christians have thoughts? Don't they just follow their made up instruction manual? Usually badly.

Considering how much of our modern intellectual world is based on Christianity, and how much of our intellectual world derives from said instruction manual, yes they certainly do have thoughts.

Didn't Christians pretty much lift all those intellectual elements right out of Plato and Aristotle, though? It's not like the philosophical elements of Christianity arouse out of a vacuum of Abrahamic purity. Most of the Western intellectualism people attribute to Christians these days comes from pagan Greeks and enlightenment thinkers who were often critical of church dogma.

It's going a bit beyond the limits of topicality here, but Christianity was the product of a mix of philosophies. If Christianity's philosophy was just like the Greek Pagans, there would have been no reason for why it would have been able to take the ancient world by storm.

It had an incredibly powerful and radically progressive message compared to the paganism of the time. This message was a combination of elements of greek philosophy, elements of Judaism, and the (possibly original) ideas of the early influences of the church. The core of that message was that everyone mattered equally to god, as opposed to paganism where it was mostly heroes, kings or magicians who had the special connection with the gods.  That idea, the Universal Fatherhood of God and the subsequently derived Universal Brotherhood of Man, was an incredibly powerful idea.

Quote from: Leon_ap_Hywel on July 23, 2022, 06:00:36 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on July 23, 2022, 10:55:17 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 23, 2022, 10:25:28 AM

Quote from: Leon_ap_Hywel on July 23, 2022, 07:52:40 AM
Christians have thoughts? Don't they just follow their made up instruction manual? Usually badly.

Considering how much of our modern intellectual world is based on Christianity, and how much of our intellectual world derives from said instruction manual, yes they certainly do have thoughts.

Didn't Christians pretty much lift all those intellectual elements right out of Plato and Aristotle, though? It's not like the philosophical elements of Christianity arouse out of a vacuum of Abrahamic purity. Most of the Western intellectualism people attribute to Christians these days comes from pagan Greeks and enlightenment thinkers who were often critical of church dogma.

Don't you know Christian's invented everything, even their own god! Not at all based on a god from someone else's religion who was probably also ripped off from older religions.

Nope original fairytale all around.

Wow. Your point of view is so incredibly edgy! What method of time travel did you use to get here from 2004?

I guess it's a bit like having a thread on GURPS or Rolemaster, some guy's bound to show up and rant about how bad it is.

Quote from: Leon_ap_Hywel on July 24, 2022, 11:02:25 AM
They're Christian, they'll forgive me...the instructions manual says so.

Sorry, but there is no rules lawyering here. Manifest impenitence precludes forgiveness. That's called Cheap Grace. It doesn't exist.

Greetings!

Let the heretics and blasphemers be judged. Break them on the wheel, scourge them in wrath, and cast them into the fires! ;D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on July 24, 2022, 05:10:56 PM

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

We had a lot of Marines in my family. Two WWII, two Korean War, and two in the late '50s.

Quote from: Timothe on July 24, 2022, 05:32:21 PM

Quote from: SHARK on July 24, 2022, 05:10:56 PM

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

We had a lot of Marines in my family. Two WWII, two Korean War, and two in the late '50s.

Greetings!

OOH RAH! OUTSTANDING!

Yep. I was a machine-gunner, and rifleman serving in the Infantry in our illustrious Marine Corps. Good times!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Omega on July 24, 2022, 12:54:47 AM

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 23, 2022, 03:10:29 PM

Quote from: DocJones on July 23, 2022, 01:31:03 PM
Any opinions on using a ouija board as a random adventure generator?
;D

That it would take way too long to be worth the effort?  ???

It would completely and utterly fail as a random anything.

And ouija board when its actually functioning is everything but random.

I am though surprised no one has tried press-ganging one of these entities into being the DM or an extra player. Slow as heck but would make the perfect Call of Cthulhu GM.

There was a posthumously written and published book using the Ouija during the Spiritualism age of late 19th Cen. Took a trio of people to meet for repeated sessions for years to compile the chapters. It was published under the received name of the posthumous author. Should already be in the public domain, naturally.

Insert pithy rejoinder about Hamlet, monkeys & typewriters versus Victorians, planchette & Ouija board here.  8)

If anyone does use it, I do strongly recommend following the three main rules, as per even written in the Parker Bros. box.  ;) No solo gate opening and communing! And be tidy, always close the gate when your done.  ;D

Quote from: Timothe on July 24, 2022, 04:58:46 PM

Quote from: Leon_ap_Hywel on July 24, 2022, 11:02:25 AM
They're Christian, they'll forgive me...the instructions manual says so.

Sorry, but there is no rules lawyering here. Manifest impenitence precludes forgiveness. That's called Cheap Grace. It doesn't exist.

That's technically correct! The most useful kind of correct!  ;D

But yeah, 'sorry not sorry' means 'forgive not forgiven'.  ;D

Word games for everyone! And now back to the topic.  :) I hope our counsel has guided them in a positive direction.

It's quite interesting... Even though I'm a devout atheist I often talk to my mates who are Catholics (and who are true believers). There seems to be quite a disconnect between American Christians and European Christians (in the British isles at least).

I'd mentioned this thread to a few of my RPing buddies again who are all believers, incidentally, and they couldn't believe some of the responses about being in 'spiritual danger' by using the likes of Tarot cards (or toys like Ouija boards) in an imaginary RPG game.

It was greeted with much mirth tbh.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on July 24, 2022, 07:22:05 PMI'd mentioned this thread to a few of my RPing buddies again who are all believers, incidentally, and they couldn't believe some of the responses about being in 'spiritual danger' by using the likes of Tarot cards (or toys like Ouija boards) in an imaginary RPG game.

Again, as long as one sticks to the game there's no danger. The only thing to worry about is the possibility that someone gets the bright idea to take it outside the game and try it in real life, and as already noted, most times this is either vanishingly unlikely or pretty easy to spot in someone who might have that inclination (and as likewise noted, someone with problems distinguishing fantasy from reality might do well to steer away from RPGs at all, whether they use ostensibly "occult" tools or not).

It's like drinking; as long as someone only does it with his mates once in a while to make hanging out more fun, it's not likely to be a problem. The problems come when people start using it as a coping tool for things outside having fun, or when it becomes a necessary prerequisite to having fun at all. Most people can spot the difference and stop before things get bad, but that doesn't mean it's not a good idea to at least be aware of the possibility, and keep an eye out for those who can't.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on July 24, 2022, 07:22:05 PM
It's quite interesting... Even though I'm a devout atheist I often talk to my mates who are Catholics (and who are true believers). There seems to be quite a disconnect between American Christians and European Christians (in the British isles at least).

I'd mentioned this thread to a few of my RPing buddies again who are all believers, incidentally, and they couldn't believe some of the responses about being in 'spiritual danger' by using the likes of Tarot cards (or toys like Ouija boards) in an imaginary RPG game.

It was greeted with much mirth tbh.

The moral of this story? 'Murican Christians are more gullible than British Christians. ;)

In fairness, it probably depends a lot on who you talk to, and this thread probably amplifies the gullible voices through self-selection. But I live in a depressingly Christian island (at least if we believe census data, which I'm a bit skeptical about given the number of atheists/agnostics, as well as people who at least dabbled in Eastern religions or New Agey stuff, even if they still technically identify as "Christian"), and most people here wouldn't bat an eye at an actual deck of real Tarot carts. I've definitely run into Christian nuts a bunch of times over the years, but most are Christian in name only, or don't seem to really care as far as I can see.

I mentioned before that some doors may be best left closed.  The problem for many Christians is of course, that they already believe in the supernatural and the door is already half way open.  I think the more evangelical Christians generally take a more mystical approach to the world and religion than more mainstream groups and are thus more readily disturbed by occult paraphrenalia and imagery.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 24, 2022, 08:13:14 PM
It's like drinking; as long as someone only does it with his mates once in a while to make hanging out more fun, it's not likely to be a problem. The problems come when people start using it as a coping tool for things outside having fun, or when it becomes a necessary prerequisite to having fun at all. Most people can spot the difference and stop before things get bad, but that doesn't mean it's not a good idea to at least be aware of the possibility, and keep an eye out for those who can't.

Oh, I agree... But is that not really more to do with psychology as opposed to a tangible spiritual menace. I think the evangelicals are more paranoid than (most) Catholics or Protestants. The English church was always way more laid back than the old generation of Irish Catholics. But the church has undergone a huge change here and have very little power now unlike before the 90s. Most don't take the bible in a literal sense.

Quote from: David Johansen on July 24, 2022, 08:29:40 PM
I think the more evangelical Christians generally take a more mystical approach to the world and religion than more mainstream groups and are thus more readily disturbed by occult paraphrenalia and imagery.

That sounds about right to me as well from the evangelicals I've met (there are a few in Ireland and mainly American).

They always had bugbear with RPing and the devil's heavy metal music. :)

Quote from: VisionStorm on July 24, 2022, 08:23:31 PM
The moral of this story? 'Murican Christians are more gullible than British Christians. ;)

Indeed!

But yeah, there are always exceptions to the rule. I mean we have a few loons here still, but they are generally scoffed at by the majority. The Irish take on it, for the most part, seems to be: 'I believe in god and I'll try to do the right thing but I don't really need to do that at mass with all that droning and singing'.

Also, very few now trust the Irish Catholic church as an institution with all the child abuse that came to light in the 90s. And it's still being revealed today in other countries, etc.

To my mind, a big part of the problem is that translations of the Bible tend to give it a single, authoritative narrative voice that would not have existed in the original documents.  The evangelicals stick with the King James version which is fine as it is beautifully written and very readable but you get into the question of what's in and what's out and how do we take this relative to that and so forth.  Belief in Biblical infalliability can take you to some strange places.  "The Bible in the origininal English" as they say.  With no eye to historical context or modern scholarship.

Quote from: David Johansen on July 24, 2022, 08:56:23 PM
Belief in Biblical infalliability can take you to some strange places.  "The Bible in the origininal English" as they say.  With no eye to historical context or modern scholarship.

Indeed... That's very true. That infallibility fallacy definitely leads people to some very odd beliefs. It's the same with Islam. So you're telling me that Muhamad rode up on a 'unicorn', split the moon in half, and then bugged off to heaven. Riiiiiiiiiiight....  ;D

When I was a believer about 15 years ago. That was one of the things I loved about Jebus. He was humble and told us not to judge others, etc. I'm cherry-picking of course. But I always scratched my head at some of the purported information held in the bible. I thought it was more of a parable than a literal fact.

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 24, 2022, 02:29:14 PM

Quote from: Leon_ap_Hywel on July 23, 2022, 06:00:36 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on July 23, 2022, 10:55:17 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 23, 2022, 10:25:28 AM

Quote from: Leon_ap_Hywel on July 23, 2022, 07:52:40 AM
Christians have thoughts? Don't they just follow their made up instruction manual? Usually badly.

Considering how much of our modern intellectual world is based on Christianity, and how much of our intellectual world derives from said instruction manual, yes they certainly do have thoughts.

Didn't Christians pretty much lift all those intellectual elements right out of Plato and Aristotle, though? It's not like the philosophical elements of Christianity arouse out of a vacuum of Abrahamic purity. Most of the Western intellectualism people attribute to Christians these days comes from pagan Greeks and enlightenment thinkers who were often critical of church dogma.

Don't you know Christian's invented everything, even their own god! Not at all based on a god from someone else's religion who was probably also ripped off from older religions.

Nope original fairytale all around.

Wow. Your point of view is so incredibly edgy! What method of time travel did you use to get here from 2004?

Nah I'm more an eighties/nineties guy, I've had a Christian education and it doesn't hold up to serious scrutiny. But, to bring back to rpgs you don't see the stupid in a guy playing a made up game letting his made up beliefs be effected by other made up beliefs (half of which he probably thinks are untrue since they're pagan) rather than just having fun with his mates?

Quote from: Timothe on July 24, 2022, 04:58:46 PM

Quote from: Leon_ap_Hywel on July 24, 2022, 11:02:25 AM
They're Christian, they'll forgive me...the instructions manual says so.

Sorry, but there is no rules lawyering here. Manifest impenitence precludes forgiveness. That's called Cheap Grace. It doesn't exist.

I'm not the one that tells them to turn the other cheek.

Quote from: SHARK on July 24, 2022, 05:10:56 PM
Greetings!

Let the heretics and blasphemers be judged. Break them on the wheel, scourge them in wrath, and cast them into the fires! ;D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

That's the Christian's history knows and loves  ;D

Quote from: David Johansen on July 24, 2022, 08:29:40 PM
I mentioned before that some doors may be best left closed.  The problem for many Christians is of course, that they already believe in the supernatural and the door is already half way open.  I think the more evangelical Christians generally take a more mystical approach to the world and religion than more mainstream groups and are thus more readily disturbed by occult paraphrenalia and imagery.

I think if you're the kind of person who believes there's an old guy in the sky who watches you while you shower RPGs might not be a healthy outlet for you.

Quote from: Leon_ap_Hywel on July 25, 2022, 04:16:22 AM

Quote from: David Johansen on July 24, 2022, 08:29:40 PM
I mentioned before that some doors may be best left closed.  The problem for many Christians is of course, that they already believe in the supernatural and the door is already half way open.  I think the more evangelical Christians generally take a more mystical approach to the world and religion than more mainstream groups and are thus more readily disturbed by occult paraphrenalia and imagery.

I think if you're the kind of person who believes there's an old guy in the sky who watches you while you shower RPGs might not be a healthy outlet for you.

And another addition to my Ignore list. I'm not going have to spend lot of time checking this forum in the future.

Quote from: Leon_ap_Hywel on July 25, 2022, 04:16:22 AM
who believes there's an old guy in the sky who watches you while you shower RPGs might not be a healthy outlet for you.

Indeed... I would think God or Satan would have better things to do than watch us play RPGs.

Quote from: Leon_ap_Hywel on July 25, 2022, 04:14:00 AM

Quote from: SHARK on July 24, 2022, 05:10:56 PM
Greetings!

Let the heretics and blasphemers be judged. Break them on the wheel, scourge them in wrath, and cast them into the fires! ;D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

That's the Christian's history knows and loves  ;D

Indeed... Control through fear... Islam loves that one too.

I wonder are you allowed play RPGs under Sharia?

As off-topic as this is veering might I suggest relocating the discussion to Pundit's own forum (presuming he's even interested)?

Quote from: Chris24601 on July 25, 2022, 07:16:09 AM
As off-topic as this is veering might I suggest relocating the discussion to Pundit's own forum (presuming he's even interested)?

Well to bring it back on topic.

What's the overall feeling here then. Do most evangelicals believe that using props is a sin, or at least leads you into spiritual peril by contacting unwanted and possibly evil supernatural attention?

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on July 25, 2022, 06:14:18 AM

Quote from: Leon_ap_Hywel on July 25, 2022, 04:14:00 AM

Quote from: SHARK on July 24, 2022, 05:10:56 PM
Greetings!

Let the heretics and blasphemers be judged. Break them on the wheel, scourge them in wrath, and cast them into the fires! ;D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

That's the Christian's history knows and loves  ;D

Indeed... Control through fear... Islam loves that one too.

I wonder are you allowed play RPGs under Sharia?

Only Buddha loves the roleplay...pagans are larpers

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on July 25, 2022, 07:20:50 AM
Well to bring it back on topic.

What's the overall feeling here then. Do most evangelicals believe that using props is a sin, or at least leads you into spiritual peril by contacting unwanted and possibly evil supernatural attention?

One third of Christians are evangelicals.  And most evangelicals reside outside of North America and Europe.
The evangelicals in the USA share such disparate beliefs the question you ask is not really answerable under the
premise "What do evangelicals believe about tarot (or props)?".
I would presume you would get wildly different answers from a Catholic evangelical, Methodist, Pentacostal and a Seventh-Day Adventist.

Quote from: DocJones on July 25, 2022, 11:05:45 AM
I would presume you would get wildly different answers from a Catholic evangelical than a Seventh Day Adventist.

And all equally as nonsensical.

Quote from: Timothe on July 25, 2022, 05:19:59 AM

Quote from: Leon_ap_Hywel on July 25, 2022, 04:16:22 AM

Quote from: David Johansen on July 24, 2022, 08:29:40 PM
I mentioned before that some doors may be best left closed.  The problem for many Christians is of course, that they already believe in the supernatural and the door is already half way open.  I think the more evangelical Christians generally take a more mystical approach to the world and religion than more mainstream groups and are thus more readily disturbed by occult paraphrenalia and imagery.

I think if you're the kind of person who believes there's an old guy in the sky who watches you while you shower RPGs might not be a healthy outlet for you.

And another addition to my Ignore list. I'm not going have to spend lot of time checking this forum in the future.

Indeed.  I thought Battlemaster was worthless, but even he occasionally offered something of value, unlike the Cymwad here.

Quote from: I on July 25, 2022, 11:24:42 AM

Quote from: Timothe on July 25, 2022, 05:19:59 AM

Quote from: Leon_ap_Hywel on July 25, 2022, 04:16:22 AM

Quote from: David Johansen on July 24, 2022, 08:29:40 PM
I mentioned before that some doors may be best left closed.  The problem for many Christians is of course, that they already believe in the supernatural and the door is already half way open.  I think the more evangelical Christians generally take a more mystical approach to the world and religion than more mainstream groups and are thus more readily disturbed by occult paraphrenalia and imagery.

I think if you're the kind of person who believes there's an old guy in the sky who watches you while you shower RPGs might not be a healthy outlet for you.

And another addition to my Ignore list. I'm not going have to spend lot of time checking this forum in the future.

Indeed.  I thought Battlemaster was worthless, but even he occasionally offered something of value, unlike the Cymwad here.

Can't add value to trash. Which is where religion belongs.

Quote from: DocJones on July 25, 2022, 11:05:45 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on July 25, 2022, 07:20:50 AM
Well to bring it back on topic.

What's the overall feeling here then. Do most evangelicals believe that using props is a sin, or at least leads you into spiritual peril by contacting unwanted and possibly evil supernatural attention?

One third of Christians are evangelicals.  And most evangelicals reside outside of North America and Europe.
The evangelicals in the USA share such disparate beliefs the question you ask is not really answerable under the
premise "What do evangelicals believe about tarot (or props)?".
I would presume you would get wildly different answers from a Catholic evangelical, Methodist, Pentacostal and a Seventh-Day Adventist.

I was brought up conservative/confessional Lutheran, where theological doctrine is concerned the Bible is definitely infallible. No relation to the larger liberal Lutheran denomination. Our ancestors came over from Saxony around 1838 onward mainly settling in the Midwest. I think we have more in common with the Roman Catholics (except we didn't spend generations recruiting gay priests who later molested children) than the American Evangelical Protestants who I think are mostly batshit crazy. A pastor I know calls them Methobapticostals.

Quote from: DocJones on July 25, 2022, 11:05:45 AM
One third of Christians are evangelicals.  And most evangelicals reside outside of North America and Europe.
The evangelicals in the USA share such disparate beliefs the question you ask is not really answerable under the
premise "What do evangelicals believe about tarot (or props)?".
I would presume you would get wildly different answers from a Catholic evangelical, Methodist, Pentacostal and a Seventh-Day Adventist.

I think though (in general) Americans are more conservative than Europeans when it comes to religion. Now there are exceptions to every rule as well but in the British Isles, the wackos don't have any political power because they are far too small. That's not to say they are free from religious problems but that waaay of topic.

Not all Christians are whackos of course. As I said previously my mates are all religious but they are a very laid back about it. I think the OP said it best about the bible (or Quran) when people see it as 'infallible'. So I can see why some might think that about Tarot cards - if you follow the bible blindly. Most Catholics (even in the Vatican) tend to support science as in Evolution. Unlike say the Discovery institute bods who built a replica of the ark.

Quote from: DocJones on July 25, 2022, 11:05:45 AM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on July 25, 2022, 07:20:50 AM
Well to bring it back on topic.

What's the overall feeling here then. Do most evangelicals believe that using props is a sin, or at least leads you into spiritual peril by contacting unwanted and possibly evil supernatural attention?

One third of Christians are evangelicals.  And most evangelicals reside outside of North America and Europe.
The evangelicals in the USA share such disparate beliefs the question you ask is not really answerable under the
premise "What do evangelicals believe about tarot (or props)?".
I would presume you would get wildly different answers from a Catholic evangelical, Methodist, Pentacostal and a Seventh-Day Adventist.

Props are okay, Tarot cards not too sure, since I personally don't think any of those things really work (unless maybe you make a deal with the devil) I would have no problem using them as randomizers, but I wouldn't really use them in their intended use.

What I find fascinating is the need of Rob, "I", Leon_ and others to evangelize Christians in a thread that's obviously not aimed at them and I will point that discussion of Religion outside of the realm of the question is off topic.

Given the OP asked I will assume he feels insecure in ussing them, IMHO that's your Guardian Angel talking to you, you ignore the voice at your own risk.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 25, 2022, 01:17:12 PM
What I find fascinating is the need of Rob, "I", Leon_ and others to evangelize Christians in a thread that's obviously not aimed at them and I will point that discussion of Religion outside of the realm of the question is off topic.

What I find even more fascinating is that you said I was on your ignore list - So please put me on that list.

Also, I've tried to bring it back on topic. I find it a highly interesting conversation.

And as for your last point. Welcome to the internet... This is a forum for chat is it not? How many threads have you 'interacted' with that were not aimed at you I wonder?

Anyway, let's keep it on the topic at hand before Pundit has a heart attack.

Quote from: Leon_ap_Hywel on July 25, 2022, 11:26:47 AM

Can't add value to trash. Which is where religion belongs.

OK.  So the OP was asking for the thoughts of practicing Christians on the use of Tarot cards.  You are, admittedly, not a Christian.  So why do you think your opinion matters?  Some things aren't about you.

I once had an argument with a person who thought that atheism created narcissists.  Once you accepted that there is nothing larger than yourself, it only stands to reason that you should be the central focus of your concern.  I disagreed with him.  I think it's the other way around.  Narcissists are attracted to atheism, because it reinforces their already held beliefs that they are the most important things in the universe.  As you can see from the commentary on this thread, these narcissists can't even fathom that their opinions are irrelevant to this topic, and they are still trying to make it about themselves.  It's like the old joke: How can you tell if someone is a vegan, atheist, or into CrossFit?  Just wait a second... they'll tell you.  Not all atheists are narcissists, but they are certainly over-represented...

As to the OP, I think there's another angle to this as well.  The idea that "magic" is real and outside the purview of God is a very Old Testament view (that multiple gods and powers exist and are in a struggle for worship and supremacy).  I think there is an argument to be made that a New Testament view would assert that there is no "magic" outside of God's miracles (with demonic possession a separate discussion... as it features prominently in the NT), and therefore, Tarot cards are only harmful if you actually believe they work.  So it's no big deal to use them in a game, any more than to use a dragon in that game, because you recognize that they are fictional and have no real power.  Only when you fear them do you risk sin, as you are attributing to them a power reserved for God alone.  Just an added consideration...

As I saw a fair number of Catholic positions on the first few pages, I'll add a Protestant one.

I actually know at least two people (a couple) who are practicing occultists. I think they are actually some manner of Irish Druidic and unless I am mistaken, I think Tarot cards are more a central European thing, so these particular people would probably not use Tarot cards specifically, but they do practice divination. And as an FYI, I cut this relationship because I suspect one of them attempted to lace a drink of mine with something (I don't know what) because it abruptly lost all carbonation and he was the only one who was close to it.

He had been a friend of mine since my sophomore year in highschool some 15 years prior. This is not one of my fonder memories. However, they are still in the friends of friends of friends circle, and I can't do much about that. Now, I understand having people like this in my extended social network makes me the exception and not the norm, but I would not voluntarily play a game with a real Tarot card deck because it could send the wrong signals. You know it's just a deck of cards, and I know it's just a deck of cards...but people who don't think that way do exist.

I want to reiterate that I do think that players can responsibly use things like a Tarot card deck. It's just a deck of cards with artworks on them. But at the same time, real occultists are not so rare and giving them an inch seems unnecessary.

Quote from: Leon_ap_Hywel on July 25, 2022, 04:12:20 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 24, 2022, 02:29:14 PM

Quote from: Leon_ap_Hywel on July 23, 2022, 06:00:36 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on July 23, 2022, 10:55:17 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 23, 2022, 10:25:28 AM

Quote from: Leon_ap_Hywel on July 23, 2022, 07:52:40 AM
Christians have thoughts? Don't they just follow their made up instruction manual? Usually badly.

Considering how much of our modern intellectual world is based on Christianity, and how much of our intellectual world derives from said instruction manual, yes they certainly do have thoughts.

Didn't Christians pretty much lift all those intellectual elements right out of Plato and Aristotle, though? It's not like the philosophical elements of Christianity arouse out of a vacuum of Abrahamic purity. Most of the Western intellectualism people attribute to Christians these days comes from pagan Greeks and enlightenment thinkers who were often critical of church dogma.

Don't you know Christian's invented everything, even their own god! Not at all based on a god from someone else's religion who was probably also ripped off from older religions.

Nope original fairytale all around.

Wow. Your point of view is so incredibly edgy! What method of time travel did you use to get here from 2004?

Nah I'm more an eighties/nineties guy, I've had a Christian education and it doesn't hold up to serious scrutiny. But, to bring back to rpgs you don't see the stupid in a guy playing a made up game letting his made up beliefs be effected by other made up beliefs (half of which he probably thinks are untrue since they're pagan) rather than just having fun with his mates?

Right, here's my Admin moment to you: this is not quite an official warning yet, but this thread is for talking about tarot cards in Kult, and it is in the broader sense acceptable to talk about whether Christianity should affect someone's choices in RPG play in general. That's allowed.
But just making posts where you mock or attempt to "debunk" Christianity in general is NOT on topic for this thread. So I would suggest you walk carefully.

Quote from: Chris24601 on July 25, 2022, 07:16:09 AM
As off-topic as this is veering might I suggest relocating the discussion to Pundit's own forum (presuming he's even interested)?

No. People just need to stay on topic. Or they'll be banned.

Quote from: Leon_ap_Hywel on July 25, 2022, 11:10:59 AM

Quote from: DocJones on July 25, 2022, 11:05:45 AM
I would presume you would get wildly different answers from a Catholic evangelical than a Seventh Day Adventist.

And all equally as nonsensical.

Right. THIS is now you OFFICIAL WARNING.
The purpose of this thread was clearly to talk about how/whether someone's Christianity should affect their purchase/use of RPGs. It was not to debate the validity of Christianity itself.

Don't post off-topic again, on this thread or any other thread, or you'll be permanently banned.

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 25, 2022, 04:28:09 PM
The purpose of this thread was clearly to talk about how/whether someone's Christianity should affect their purchase/use of RPGs.

That opens up the thread even more in that case.

Since I've been RPGing since I was 13 that meant I was a heavy believer for many decades when I was playing. However, even when I believed I never let any of that satanic nonsense make me believe that RPGs were bad or evil. Or that if you play evil characters you were a bad person, etc.

Most people just balked at the concept and continued to play completely unimpeded. We (mostly) all greeted the satanic panic as a bizarre American phenomenon.

As far as I'm concerned Role Playing is just mental flatulence and has no effect on anything (except your serotonin levels). That is unless someone is emotionally disturbed or a schizo who's off their meds. Just like Marilyn Manson who were not responsible for the columbine shooting. The two little kunts that did it were broken and truly evil people.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on July 24, 2022, 08:46:19 PM

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 24, 2022, 08:13:14 PMMost people can spot the difference and stop before things get bad, but that doesn't mean it's not a good idea to at least be aware of the possibility, and keep an eye out for those who can't.

Oh, I agree... But is that not really more to do with psychology as opposed to a tangible spiritual menace.

There's a definite overlap, largely because there isn't always a clear dividing line between the psychological and the spiritual, and each can influence the other; psychological weaknesses can render one spiritually vulnerable and vice versa.

But this is all in the realm of rare extreme hypotheticals. Usually simply being aware of the possibility and keeping one's intentions clear is enough to forestall any danger from it, and as I'm starting to repeat myself I'll probably let the topic go here.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 25, 2022, 01:17:12 PM

What I find fascinating is the need of Rob, "I", Leon_ and others to evangelize Christians in a thread that's obviously not aimed at them and I will point that discussion of Religion outside of the realm of the question is off topic.

Given the OP asked I will assume he feels insecure in ussing them, IMHO that's your Guardian Angel talking to you, you ignore the voice at your own risk.

Me?  Evangelizing?  Don't lump me in with the other two guys.  I was just commenting on the Cymwad's complete lack of contribution to the topic.  Now, I didn't contribute either... but I'm not the only one to point out that the guy wasn't on topic and wasn't contributing anything.  I'm reading the thread to learn more about the subject, and this douchebag keeps interrupting the thread with his Tourette's-like anti-Christian commentary, and it annoyed me.

But since you brought it up -- I'm a Christian and I've used Tarot cards for years.  There's nothing "occult" or supernatural about them.  Various hucksters, fraudsters and superstitious people will say otherwise, but they are actually just a tool for meditation.  They are pictorial, symbolic representations of universal metaphysical concepts (the major arcana), personality types (the court), and  all sorts of different types of situations/things/incidents that can arise in life (the minor arcana).  You lay them out in a pattern and look at them and think about their relationships to one another.  That's all they are.  No more "evil," "occult" or "supernatural" than going to an art gallery (or playing an RPG, for that matter).  There is no such thing as "fortune-telling" with Tarot cards or anything else; con men and women use them for that to entertain some people, and fool the most gullible ones.  Now, I've never played Kult so maybe they ARE conceptually different in that game, for all I know.  The Emperor's Tarot in Warhammer 40K certainly is.

Quote from: myleftnut on July 16, 2022, 07:40:12 PM
Any Christians out there?  I'm planning to run a game of Kult.  I figured this forum is as good a place as any to get fellow Christian perspectives on the game and more specifically the Kult Tarot cards.  I'm assuming if I post this on rpg.net I would be inundated with all types of twattery from atheists. We're gamers so obviously we never bought into that satanic panic nonsense.   To me Kult is not blasphemy because it's just a horror setting and for gaming the tarot cards aren't real.  However i always stay clear of actual occult stuff.  I would never use tarot for actual divination and wouldn't mess with for example a Ouija board but the Kult Tarot cards look like a cool way to play the game.  I'm curious to hear other Christian thoughts on this matter.

Depends on how cool the artwork is on the cards.

Sorry been gone a while.  The thread really went off the rails. I appreciate everyone who stayed on topic and posted their view. My main concern was if the use of tarot cards went against biblical teaching as other believers interpret it.  Supernatural dangers is really just a small side concern.  I'm not really interested in a debate on the merits of the faith or lack there of.  I will say this though.  Every hardcore atheist I've ever met got turned away from Christianity by overzealous parents.  Parents seem to be the #1 cause of atheism.  I'll leave it at that since proselytising isn't my bag. If anyone has anything else to add concerning occult tools in gaming I'd like to hear it.

Edit.  One more jab lol.  A lot of people are atheist until they are about to die. 

Quote from: myleftnut on July 27, 2022, 12:31:27 AM
I will say this though.  Every hardcore atheist I've ever met got turned away from Christianity by overzealous parents.

My parents were not overzealous... It was skepticism, corruption, and science that turned me away.

huh,  one of the reasons I find Christianity useful is that it means suicide is kinda useless.  With atheism there's nothing to fear after death, I'd find that reassuring really.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on July 27, 2022, 06:04:10 AM

Quote from: myleftnut on July 27, 2022, 12:31:27 AM
I will say this though.  Every hardcore atheist I've ever met got turned away from Christianity by overzealous parents.

My parents were not overzealous... It was skepticism, corruption, and science that turned me away.

I'm not really an atheist anymore, but I was turned away from Christianity by its history, its implicit prejudice and destain (and outright persecution) towards other view points or belief systems—even different sects within their own religion—and the fact that I kept running into fundamentalist Christians growing up, despite my family not being very devout and my dad not even believing in it (he has his own beliefs aligning more with Dharmic religions, but was irreverent AF and I used to think he was an atheist till I was close to my teens). At this point I'm not likely to ever go back to Christianity given that I've had spiritual experiences that contradict its teachings, though, I wouldn't be above playing a Christian character (probably something inspired by the Templars in Knightfall) if I ended up playing a more historical game, since I'm not against playing characters with beliefs different from mine.

I'm not likely to use Tarot cards in game, since I tend to prefer dice as a randomizer and I'm not much for using props (specially if I have to pay extra for game-specific stuff), though I'm not fundamentally against it.

Quote from: VisionStorm on July 27, 2022, 10:47:56 AM
I'm not likely to use Tarot cards in game, since I tend to prefer dice as a randomizer and I'm not much for using props (specially if I have to pay extra for game-specific stuff), though I'm not fundamentally against it.

I'm the same... I don't like gimmicks or doodads. If a game uses cards or some such I just won't play it. I'm old-fashioned that way.  :)

But if people want to use them have at it.

Late to the party, but does it help that tarot cards started out as ordinary gaming materials and originally had nothing to do with the occult? It was only during the occult craze centuries later that people started using them for divination.

Quote from: HappyDaze on July 24, 2022, 01:01:19 AM
You could always try using a Magic 8 Ball to GM a total sandbox.

A few random adventure gen systems are pretty much that. We even goofed around with recreating an 8-ball as just rolling on a table for one Gamma World project. Was pretty funny.

Quote from: rytrasmi on July 27, 2022, 04:47:41 PM
Late to the party, but does it help that tarot cards started out as ordinary gaming materials and originally had nothing to do with the occult? It was only during the occult craze centuries later that people started using them for divination.

Part of the problem with using the bible as a guide for whats wrong or not is that its been altered and edited to suit certain agendas. Not exactly the most reliable source. Which just compounds the problem.

As said. I dont care if its occult, psi, subconcious, imagination, or trickery. Though my waryness is mostly directed as ouija boards as that is the one seen in action. Heck of alot creepier too than just laying out cards.

Quote from: rytrasmi on July 27, 2022, 04:47:41 PM
Late to the party, but does it help that tarot cards started out as ordinary gaming materials and originally had nothing to do with the occult? It was only during the occult craze centuries later that people started using them for divination.

  The consensus of the Christian community on this thread is that Tarot cards are akin to the meat sacrificed to idols of which Paul speaks in 1 Corinthians 8--they don't have any power of themselves, so they can be used as a game aid without concern so long as you don't lead 'weaker brethren' into believing that they might have some power, or that divination is morally acceptable.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on July 27, 2022, 05:21:46 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on July 27, 2022, 04:47:41 PM
Late to the party, but does it help that tarot cards started out as ordinary gaming materials and originally had nothing to do with the occult? It was only during the occult craze centuries later that people started using them for divination.

  The consensus of the Christian community on this thread is that Tarot cards are akin to the meat sacrificed to idols of which Paul speaks in 1 Corinthians 8--they don't have any power of themselves, so they can be used as a game aid without concern so long as you don't lead 'weaker brethren' into believing that they might have some power, or that divination is morally acceptable.

Cool. Thanks for summarizing.

Quote from: rytrasmi on July 27, 2022, 04:47:41 PM
Late to the party, but does it help that tarot cards started out as ordinary gaming materials and originally had nothing to do with the occult? It was only during the occult craze centuries later that people started using them for divination.

This isn't as clear cut as it may seem. While certainly there was a big development in the use of Tarot cards for divination in the 18th C, that doesn't mean it didn't have occult elements earlier. Some of the earliest creators of tarot decks (particularly the Sforza family) had a reputation for dabbling in heresy and magic. And the symbols on the cards have imagery that could be considered both spiritual and occult.
At the very least they undoubtedly contained moral and allegorical concepts and symbols, which was the bread and butter of renaissance magic. It's not so clear if divination was an early use or not, but it seems likely they were used in part as "flash cards" for magic.

Quote from: Omega on July 27, 2022, 05:13:04 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on July 27, 2022, 04:47:41 PM
Late to the party, but does it help that tarot cards started out as ordinary gaming materials and originally had nothing to do with the occult? It was only during the occult craze centuries later that people started using them for divination.

Part of the problem with using the bible as a guide for whats wrong or not is that its been altered and edited to suit certain agendas. Not exactly the most reliable source. Which just compounds the problem.

As said. I dont care if its occult, psi, subconcious, imagination, or trickery. Though my waryness is mostly directed as ouija boards as that is the one seen in action. Heck of alot creepier too than just laying out cards.

Not really. Copies of the Bibles that they found over the centuries didn't vary that much and the Gospel message wasn't changed at all. One New Testament book allegedly has an extra ending, but it doesn't contradict anything. Some seminaries still teach their pastoral candidates Ancient Hebrew and New Testament Greek. If you want to try something that's more literal to the original text try the New American Standard Bible.

I'm also a christian. I've played Kult before and used the Kult Tarot cards in the game. For me, it's all about separating fiction from reality. Kult is just a horror setting for gaming, and the tarot cards are simply a game mechanic, not something I'd use for actual divination. I steer clear of real occult practices, like Ouija boards, but using the Kult Tarot cards adds a cool dimension to the game. I also use coin flip online (https://flipsimu.com/) to make important decisions, but I don't think Christians aren't allowed to do that. Or are they?

Quote from: BertieMoss on July 06, 2023, 12:11:05 PM
I'm also a christian. I've played Kult before and used the Kult Tarot cards in the game. For me, it's all about separating fiction from reality. Kult is just a horror setting for gaming, and the tarot cards are simply a game mechanic, not something I'd use for actual divination. I steer clear of real occult practices, like Ouija boards, but using the Kult Tarot cards adds a cool dimension to the game. I also use coin flip online (https://flipsimu.com/) to make important decisions, but I don't think Christians aren't allowed to do that. Or are they?

Casting (or drawing) lots was done throughout the Bible as a means of determining matters that could go either way (who gets a limited availability boon or who has to do an unpleasant task).

That's not the same thing as divination as you're not trying to determine the future or contact spirits by rolling or drawing... you're using a randomizer to decide between generally equal options (which of six soldiers gets to dig the latrine, which one gets the cloak of the condemned man).

Eastern orthodox here with a past of dabbling with the occult. I personally would not use any kind of Tarot, even for "entertainment" purpose nor would I play Kult due to it´s gnosticism. Funnily enough, I used to own Kult back in the day. I got it second hand. The whole book was scribbled with notes the way you´d see someone do it in movies in some kind of hysterical state or maybe even demonic possession. I ended up getting rid off the books eventually.

I have refrained from posting on this thread because Kult is a game I know very little about, however I do have a good general understanding of theology. FYI: I am reformed Presbyterian.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on July 27, 2022, 05:21:46 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on July 27, 2022, 04:47:41 PM
Late to the party, but does it help that tarot cards started out as ordinary gaming materials and originally had nothing to do with the occult? It was only during the occult craze centuries later that people started using them for divination.

  The consensus of the Christian community on this thread is that Tarot cards are akin to the meat sacrificed to idols of which Paul speaks in 1 Corinthians 8--they don't have any power of themselves, so they can be used as a game aid without concern so long as you don't lead 'weaker brethren' into believing that they might have some power, or that divination is morally acceptable.

Mostly. That's a pretty good sparknotes of the thread, but the actual criteria is--like food sacrificed to idols--if it causes your brother to sin. Playing a fantasy game with Tarot cards is generally permitted, but there are certain circumstances where it becomes the wrong thing to do because one of the players at the table isn't mature enough to understand the difference between fantasy and real life, or is entangled in real world occultism. People tend to hear the word "proselytize" and assume that it's the Christian going out there with a bullhorn shouting that Jesus is coming and the world is ending, but games like Kult can be used by members of genuine occult sects to proselytize and recruit, and such people are almost always disingenuous about their motivations.

One last thing to note; Kult has strong Gnostic and Luciferian worldbuilding sensibilities, and while Gnosticism is not really a thing anymore, Luciferianism absolutely is (even though it's a pretty rare religion) and the fact that Luciferianism is wildly different from Satanism can and will catch people off guard when they're first exposed to the ideas. Luciferianism is an intellectual philosophy that teaches Lucifer was a Prometheus-figure bringing forbidden knowledge to humanity. Satanism is more a straight inversion of Judeo-Christian worship.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on July 27, 2022, 05:21:46 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on July 27, 2022, 04:47:41 PM
Late to the party, but does it help that tarot cards started out as ordinary gaming materials and originally had nothing to do with the occult? It was only during the occult craze centuries later that people started using them for divination.

  The consensus of the Christian community on this thread is that Tarot cards are akin to the meat sacrificed to idols of which Paul speaks in 1 Corinthians 8--they don't have any power of themselves, so they can be used as a game aid without concern so long as you don't lead 'weaker brethren' into believing that they might have some power, or that divination is morally acceptable.

Uhh. No.