My group wants to try an OSR game. The systems that were suggested are Dungeon Crawl Classics, Swords & Wizardry and Lamentations of the Flame Princess. Since they want me to run the game, I get to pick which one we play but I have only a little knowledge of LotFP and no clue about DCC or S&W (which looks like it has 3 versions: light, core and complete?).
Can anyone explain how the games differ from one another? Are there some pros and cons that I should be considering or are they all fairly similar and I'll be good just randomly picking any of them? For now I'm looking to run 3-4 sessions of about 5-6 hours each with 4 players if that makes any difference.
What are you trying to accomplish? S&W tries to distill OD&D into something more comprehensible (with White Box and Complete adding less/more options), LotFP is like a horror-themed version of B/X, and DCC is a version of AD&D mated with D&D 3.X. If you just want a generic "OSR experience", why not just play B/X and be done with it? If I had to pick an OSR game and didn't want to play anything original, I'd use Advanced Labyrinth Lord. Maybe Astonishing Swordsmen & Sorcerers of Hyperborea if I wanted a darker all-human game, and Lion & Dragon for something more mid-EVIL in bent.
Again, the answer lies in what you're trying to do. So, what are the goals?
Mostly to play something and have fun. I know, that's a crap answer.
Most of us have been playing RPGs for 30+ years and we've just moved on with whatever was coming out as time went on. So a lot of us started on 1st ed AD&D, then 2nd, 3rd, skipped 4th for Pathfinder and are now playing 5th. We've played dozens of other games of all types: rules light, rules heavy, story games, etc. The group in general tends to prefer something slightly heavier than Savage Worlds in rules crunch for ongoing campaigns.
When we were talking about what to play next (our Mutant Year Zero game is going to wind down soon) a few people mentioned "what about that OSR stuff". They aren't really big forum people and I think the 3 games I mentioned came up just because they happened to hear about them someplace but don't really know anything more than they exist.
They are probably expecting 10' poles, dungeon crawls with danger and gold, fantasy monsters and wizards who throw darts most of the time to save their spells. If one of those games offers something more than then others we'll take it (domain rules, mass combat, etc) and run with it.
No experience with LotFP.
DCC looks intimidating because of the thickness of the core rulebook, but in reality plays really fast IMO. The vast majority of pages in the rulebook are spells, since each spell gets its own table for effects when cast, so only the spellslinger needs to deal with that stuff. The DCC modules are really good if you want games that are like the old S&S stories where every monster is unique as compared to most modules where monsters are "just another orc" or somesuch. Each class has a couple of ways to bend the rules, but there aren't THAT many options that need to be figured out along the way.
S&W is a pretty standard OD&D-style game, with strengths and weaknesses as discussed ad nauseum in various threads. If you like the power scale, character options, and so forth of OD&D then you should enjoy S&W.
Maybe ACKS?
Quote from: rgalex;1072692Mostly to play something and have fun. I know, that's a crap answer.
Most of us have been playing RPGs for 30+ years and we've just moved on with whatever was coming out as time went on. So a lot of us started on 1st ed AD&D, then 2nd, 3rd, skipped 4th for Pathfinder and are now playing 5th. We've played dozens of other games of all types: rules light, rules heavy, story games, etc. The group in general tends to prefer something slightly heavier than Savage Worlds in rules crunch for ongoing campaigns.
When we were talking about what to play next (our Mutant Year Zero game is going to wind down soon) a few people mentioned "what about that OSR stuff". They aren't really big forum people and I think the 3 games I mentioned came up just because they happened to hear about them someplace but don't really know anything more than they exist.
They are probably expecting 10' poles, dungeon crawls with danger and gold, fantasy monsters and wizards who throw darts most of the time to save their spells. If one of those games offers something more than then others we'll take it (domain rules, mass combat, etc) and run with it.
Rules Cyclopedia then. It's not OSR and actually the real thing, but covers all those bases. ACKS is, in my opinion, a poor replacement for RC, especially when you consider all the Gazetteers and stuff. If you do full-blown RC with Gazetteers and Wrath of the Immortals, it's pretty much kitchen sink pulp fantasy crossed with steampunk. At low levels it's all about the 10' pole and tons of insta-death in megadungeons, but once you hit 9th level the domain stuff opens up and it's definitely a different game.
If you want to play a game very much like Original D&D, with or without the additional options; welcome to Swords & Wizardry. White Box FMAG is also in this camp.
DCC is a different take on AD&D. It does not emulate AD&D rules, but tries to capture that feeling. It requires different dice than other D&D variants.
LotFP is a D&D variant, with a saucy redhead thrown in.....
I've yet to find a compelling reason to actually use an OSR ruleset.
They may have an interesting custom mechanic or two. Nick it/them.
Swords and Wizardry is truest to old school D&D, as a retroclone it's the most faithful of the three. So depending on how strictly you define "OSR" that may be what you want.
LotFP is another retro ruleset, but not quite a straightforward clone. Only fighters get better at combat, thieves are replaced by specialists who choose the skills they're good at it, the spell list is altered somewhat... It is a strong contender in it's own right, and even if you don't use it I recommend stealing the encumbrance system, and possibly the Summon spell. LotFP the name/publisher is famous partly for the adventure line and not the ruleset though, and you don't actually need to run the ruleset to use the adventures, monster stats are entirely compatible. Look at Tower of the Stargazer for a good basic introductory adventure, or The God That Crawls if you want to throw your players in the deep end of a James Raggi nega-dungeon.
Dungeon Crawl Classics was influenced by the OSR, it shares an OSR aesthetic and some design principles, but is very much it's own thing and falls farthest away from original D&D. I've played it and had fun, so I can recommend it in it's own right, but I don't consider it OSR in a strict definition. It would take some work to convert adventures from other systems, and most of the DCC adventures I've seen are extremely linear. Evocative, imaginative, challenging, weird and strange where other adventures are vanilla, but fundamentally linear. (If I'm wrong, post some adventure names, I'd love to see them.)
Quote from: Dave R;1072702Dungeon Crawl Classics was influenced by the OSR, it shares an OSR aesthetic and some design principles, but is very much it's own thing and falls farthest away from original D&D. I've played it and had fun, so I can recommend it in it's own right, but I don't consider it OSR in a strict definition. It would take some work to convert adventures from other systems, and most of the DCC adventures I've seen are extremely linear. Evocative, imaginative, challenging, weird and strange where other adventures are vanilla, but fundamentally linear. (If I'm wrong, post some adventure names, I'd love to see them.)
That's a good summary. Anyone expecting dungeon crawls or other classic play modes from Dungeon Crawl Classics is going to be in for a surprise. It's a good game with some cool adventures, but they're pretty much plot-driven sword and sorcery stories set to ultra-hard mode.
Maybe give Labyrinth Lord a try? Race as class is different than what most modern players expect and it's a very cleanly written set of rules.
I really like the streamlining in Swords & Wizardry - ascending AC (starting at 10) & to-hit bonus of course, but the real trick is the unified save number, which suddenly gives me a neat level-based resolution mechanic for all kinds of stuff, like whether the rescued princess falls in love with her viking rescuer (she did) :), without any charts or fiddling with skill points.
S&W is so streamlined I find I prefer 'Complete', it also has the advantage of a comprehensive online SRD https://www.d20swsrd.com/ which even includes Rob Conley's Blackmarsh campaign setting!
Thanks.
I think most of us would go back and play AD&D again except all but of one of us don't have the books anymore (and his are in a different state). I think that's why they were looking at some of the new clones/OSR/offshoots. If we're, potentially, going to be getting new books anyway why not something actually new.
I'm going to take a look at LotFP again, since the pdf is free. I'll probably also look at S&W and the RC. DCC's different dice is a bit of a turn off. Better to save that one for when I hit up a con and can try it without the extra expense.
While I hate using pre-made modules, I'm not against stealing ideas from them. Some were mentioned above but if anyone else has any to recommend I'm all ears.
Adventures - I use a bunch of free stuff from basicfantasy.org - go to https://www.basicfantasy.org/downloads.html - they are print-at-cost via amazon, too.
JN2 "Monkey Isle" is an excellent riff on Isle of Dread, and would work with DCC and LoTFP as well as S&W.
The fortress in "Fortress Tower & Tomb" riffs off "Palace of the Silver Princess", with goodly duke seduced by cunning thief - it is a lot of fun and definitely useable in a wide variety of ways.
Quote from: rgalex;1072709Thanks.
I think most of us would go back and play AD&D again except all but of one of us don't have the books anymore (and his are in a different state). I think that's why they were looking at some of the new clones/OSR/offshoots. If we're, potentially, going to be getting new books anyway why not something actually new.
One last bit of info, in case you're unaware, and then I'll leave the thread for the OSR rule set fans to opine:
You can get an top quality offset print OSRIC book that is all-in-one (PHB, DMG, MM in one book) for less than $30 from Black Blade (you can PM grodog from BB here at the 'site) that is absolutely dripping with art. The reason it's such a good buy is that there's virtually no profit in it (IIRC other than a few cents due to rounding up to the nearest $).
There is no better value in gaming if your opinion of AD&D is positive.
Quote from: rgalex;1072709I think most of us would go back and play AD&D again except all but of one of us don't have the books anymore (and his are in a different state). I think that's why they were looking at some of the new clones/OSR/offshoots. If we're, potentially, going to be getting new books anyway why not something actually new.
As EOTB mentioned, if you're looking for a straight-up AD&D 1e clone, OSRIC is free @ http://knights-n-knaves.com/osric/ and you can order the Black Blade hardcover for $26 + shipping via PM at our Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/BlackBladePublishing/ You can also check out Advanced Labyrinth Lord, which is the other main OSR AD&D 1e rule set: //www.goblinoidgames.com (but it looks like their web site is borked---as is our BBP one, which is why we use FB for the nonce).
Quote from: rgalex;1072709While I hate using pre-made modules, I'm not against stealing ideas from them. Some were mentioned above but if anyone else has any to recommend I'm all ears.
My top OSR/AD&D 1e module recommendations (stuff your other players will never have read or played if they're not plugged into the old-school forums scene in general):
- OSRC's 10th Anniversary module, The Hyqueous Vaults @ https://hyqueousvaults.blogspot.com/ (PDF is free, Lulu print version is at-cost)
- Rob Kuntz's Bottle City, Cairn of the Skeleton King, and Tower of Blood, from Black Blade at our Facebook page @ https://www.facebook.com/BlackBladePublishing/photos/?tab=albums
- Chaotic Henchmen's F1 and F3 adventures, and Rob Kuntz's Dark Druids @ http://www.chaotichenchmen.com/
- Anthony Huso's Fabled City of Brass (2 books) and Night Wolf Inn (I've not read the Mortuary Temple of Esma yet, since it may show up in our campaign): http://www.lulu.com/spotlight/anthonyhuso
- Jeff Talanian's ASSH modules---all are great, and map pretty cleanly back to AD&D: http://www.hyperborea.tv/products.html
If you're looking for old-school AD&D 1e module recommendations, my top picks are discussed in last year's 18 day module challenge: https://grodog.blogspot.com/2018/10/module-challenge-epitaph.html
Allan.
I'd use Basic Fantasy Role Playing Game. Electronic versions are free. At cost $5 paperback from Amazon. Crazy high production standards. d20 SRD v3.5 retroed to be more OSR.
https://www.basicfantasy.org/ (https://www.basicfantasy.org/)
Quote from: kythri;1072694Maybe ACKS?
Strong recommendation, considering the group's interests and desires (as described, above). Though I'm wondering why switch from what you're currently running, if they like a bit of crunch. That doesn't strike me as much of a change?
Quote from: Tod13;1072722I'd use Basic Fantasy Role Playing Game. Electronic versions are free. At cost $5 paperback from Amazon. Crazy high production standards. d20 SRD v3.5 retroed to be more OSR.
https://www.basicfantasy.org/ (https://www.basicfantasy.org/)
Also excellent recc.
Quote from: cranebump;1072723Strong recommendation, considering the group's interests and desires (as described, above). Though I'm wondering why switch from what you're currently running, if they like a bit of crunch. That doesn't strike me as much of a change?
We play 2x a week. We have an ongoing campaign session and a "let's try this" session. The ongoing campaign is something that we'll likely play for a year. The other one is something we'll play for 1-3 months depending on how we like it, just to try something different. Sometimes it's vastly different from what we typically play, sometimes it's just a different system to see what it's like or what changes/gimmicks it has from the usual.
The M:YZ game is what we're currently giving a shot. We've been playing for almost 3 months now and people just wanted to give something else a go.
I've heard of ACKS, read a bit about it here after the TBP kerfuffle. I might give this a look too now that you reminded me of it.
DCC definitely. It has unpredictable, mysterious magic, which frankly is how magic should be ;) And Mighty Deeds. I mean come on. SW and LotFP pale in comparison.
Regarding OSRIC:
I don't own a hardcopy, but I did download the free PDF; and i also own the AD&D core 3. My understanding; is that OSRIC is essentially the PHB, most of the MM, and the roll tables from the DMG, in a single volume.
I'd use OSRIC, especially since you "would just play AD&D, but don't have the books." If limited to the original three options listed, I'd probably pick S&W Complete.
Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;1072750I'd use OSRIC, especially since you "would just play AD&D, but don't have the books." If limited to the original three options listed, I'd probably pick S&W Complete.
Yeah, if you like 1e with bits of UA best then OSRIC is very nice. It has the more powerful 1e versions of PC classes; S&W is balanced around an OD&D-Classic power level.
Based on my actual play, here's my thoughts:
MAZES & MINOTAURS (http://mazesandminotaurs.free.fr/) - its free and its awesome, especially because its Greek Mythos via Hollywood via OD&D which is greatly flavorful. I find players love it because its totally familiar, but different enough so its not "just D&D"
SWORDS & WIZARDRY: WHITE BOX (and only White Box) - its free, awesome and takes you back to the 1974 edition of D&D where it all began. S&W:WB is badass because there are 3 classes for humans - Cleric, Fighting Man and Magic-User. It creates a very different paradigm for both how you create your campaign setting for how the players interact with it. The "limitations" of S&W:WB are actually its major strengths. I've run a crapton of White Box games and players get excited because its a throwback to a D&D they most likely never experienced.
PALLADIUM FANTASY 1e - the original AD&D clone! I can't nail down WHY, but I've had such incredibly memorable games with Palladium Fantasy in spite of the system wonkiness. There is some A grade gamer voodoo in that game. PF2e is good, but 1e is a concentrated heroin rush of kewlness.
OSRIC is rather good as an AD&D substitute, although the real thing is still the original books - OSRIC does not replicate Gary's masterwork, and doesn't try to.
S&W is a good option if you want a fast-flowing, low-maintenance game. I have played in a fair number of S&W games, from the vanilla to the heavily modded, and it has stood up well. It can feel a bit weightless for some players who prefer a bit more mechanical support for their PCs. Note that S&W comes in many different flavours. S&W Complete is comparable to a lightweight AD&D, while S&W White Box is a minimal framework. There are also versions and offshoots in between.
LotFP and DCC are both games with a specific flavour. I would pick them if you are looking for a departure from standard D&D.
I've found that, whenever I say I play OD&D, I think of S&W Whitebox. But what I'm actually playing, is a very streamlined OD&D with most of the stuff left out I don't use and AAC and some popular houserules added in for good measure.
That's my OSR ruleset. It mostly exists in my head and between the pages of the LBBs and S&W Whitebox.
Quote from: Brad;1072691W DCC is a version of AD&D mated with D&D 3.X.
Quote from: Razor 007;1072699DCC is a different take on AD&D. It does not emulate AD&D rules, but tries to capture that feeling. It requires different dice than other D&D variants.
I would say DCC is a a different take on classic, B/X, rules encyclopedia dnd, not adnd.
Quote from: rgalex;1072686My group wants to try an OSR game. The systems that were suggested are Dungeon Crawl Classics, Swords & Wizardry and Lamentations of the Flame Princess. Since they want me to run the game, I get to pick which one we play but I have only a little knowledge of LotFP and no clue about DCC or S&W (which looks like it has 3 versions: light, core and complete?).
Can anyone explain how the games differ from one another? Are there some pros and cons that I should be considering or are they all fairly similar and I'll be good just randomly picking any of them? For now I'm looking to run 3-4 sessions of about 5-6 hours each with 4 players if that makes any difference.
Since you mentioned you have played adnd. OSRIC as mentioned is basically an adnd clone and its free. Another adnd clone is adventures dark and deep, but its not free.
Lamentations of the Flame princess is based on classic dnd, basically also called B/X dnd and rules cyclopedia which are essentially very similar. B/X dnd is for level 1-14 though fan media expansion for higher levels exist and rules cyclopedia for levels 1-36.
I would recommend B/X dnd and specifically the BX essentials series for a solid old school experience.
Another excellent game based on classic dnd is ACK, its also amazing.
Swords&Wizardry is based on odnd, the oldest and most basic dnd. I have no experience with it, but I think its basically an expansion of an expansion's expansion of a medieval wargame.
DCC is also awesome but if you are looking for old school experience stick with the clones IMO. Leave DCC for later.
Overall I would suggest B/X essentials (for your group).
Quote from: kythri;1072694Maybe ACKS?
I like ACKS for folks that like completeness/crunch, especially with the Player's Companion.
Quote from: Melan;1072760OSRIC is rather good as an AD&D substitute, although the real thing is still the original books - OSRIC does not replicate Gary's masterwork, and doesn't try to.
Curious about your meaning here, Melan: do you mean that OSRIC doesn't attempt to replicate Gygax's prose, or something else?
Allan.
Quote from: grodog;1072815Curious about your meaning here, Melan: do you mean that OSRIC doesn't attempt to replicate Gygax's prose, or something else?
Allan.
He probably means that the majority of the text found in the DMG, isn't included in OSRIC. Gary's copious words of wisdom didn't make the cut.
Yeah - OSRIC gives you the AD&D rules, and even a neat amount of support material (for instance, good dungeon stocking tables), but lacks the digressions and advice from Gary's work. This is the nature of the beast.
Quote from: Melan;1072829Yeah - OSRIC gives you the AD&D rules, and even a neat amount of support material (for instance, good dungeon stocking tables), but lacks the digressions and advice from Gary's work. This is the nature of the beast.
When you read the DMG, you can actually tell it was written from the perspective of someone who had been running games for almost ten years; it definitely wasn't a bunch of advice from some isolated ivory tower. Even if you disagree with what the DMG says, at least it's founded in reality. I cannot say the same when I read advice in more modern games...sometimes I wonder if they actually play tested, or just wrote the rules and arbitrarily decided it'd all work out at the table.
Quote from: rgalex;1072730We play 2x a week. We have an ongoing campaign session and a "let's try this" session. The ongoing campaign is something that we'll likely play for a year. The other one is something we'll play for 1-3 months depending on how we like it, just to try something different. Sometimes it's vastly different from what we typically play, sometimes it's just a different system to see what it's like or what changes/gimmicks it has from the usual.
The M:YZ game is what we're currently giving a shot. We've been playing for almost 3 months now and people just wanted to give something else a go.
I've heard of ACKS, read a bit about it here after the TBP kerfuffle. I might give this a look too now that you reminded me of it.
I see. Thanks for the explanation.
Of the OP choices, DCC is by far the most FUN to play, but you have to like your game gonzo.
If you're looking for a more serious game, well, then you should use one of the others. Though frankly, you should probably go for Lion & Dragon instead of either of those. Well, definitely instead of LotFP. L&D was created to be better than LotFP.
As for S&W, you could play that if what you want is something practically IDENTICAL to original D&D. If you don't want novelty. Otherwise, Lion & Dragon.
Oh, and if you do choose DCC, check out the RPGPundit Presents supplements, there's tons of them (all the "Last Sun" ones) which are made for gonzo craziness from my DCC campaign.