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Imagine the following situation:

You have announced to run a gritty hard scifi game at a local gaming convention.

When you show up at your table, it turns out that of the six players, two are 12 year old girls. A quick conversation reveals that they have roleplayed before (once, some kind of homebrew), they chose your game because they like scifi (although you haven't heard the scifi things they mention), they claim their parents are ok with them playing (but they aren't anywhere near), and they are eager to play.

You have prepared a pretty straight forward investigation/action scenario, but it touches some mature themes. There is nothing in it that is overtly unsuited for children that you couldn't tone down or change on the spot, but the base premise still is "Blindsight" meets "Invasion of the Body Snatchers". A 12 year old might get the "rough picture" ("those aliens killed and replaced the scientists"), but they probably won't get the nuances and implications (which might be a good thing). Your pregenerated characters all have some transhumanist element in them: Cyberware, shared consciousnesses, one is an outright AI, that kind of thing.

The other players appear to be normal convention folk, perhaps a little bit on the annoying side.

What do you do?

Run the game.  Why wouldn't you?

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;923532Run the game.  Why wouldn't you?

Agreed.

But from experience heres some thoughts.

Keep an eye on the other players. Not because they might cause problems. Merely because they may forget that theres kids present. Make sure the other players know this right off. Both my younger sisters were handling D&D at around 10 and 8 and by the time they were 13 and 11 respectively were pretty good at handling this stuff. So 13 is my personal threshold for when I stop worrying as much. (But still keep an eye on things anyhoo...)

Describe what sort of adventure you are running and see if that really appeals to them. This is good advice for dealing with any age or gender really.

If you still feel uncomfortable then have them bring over their parents to confirm its ok. It shouldnt take that long and will put at least one possible worry at ease.

Summon forth a staff person to fetch said parents. Get their buy-in. Make sure the adventure is not going to squick out 12 year old girls. You just became a herald of the hobby, like it or not, and your behavior/performance is going to leave an impression on young minds. No pressure or anything.

If you are concerned about the apropriateness of your game for the girls a check in with the parents is more than appropriate.

Remind the other players that two of the players are young. Repeat as needed. Be aware that the girls may be the worst offenders.

Have fun.

Quote from: Pyromancer;923531What do you do?

Keep an eye on them and make sure they don't get out of hand with the rape jokes and over the top violence.

I was once 12 years old, and had a sister.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;923568I was once 12 years old, and had a sister.

Yeah, at 12 my sister was quite in the know about a lot of things. I remember her writing stories about an Indiana Jones-esque gynecologist named Smiling Gilbert Goldfinger and his nurse, Miss Moist.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;923568Keep an eye on them and make sure they don't get out of hand with the rape jokes and over the top violence.

I'd expect players at a convention to keep it clean no matter what the age of them or the other players. Certainly that's my UK experience. I guess other nationalities may be different. IME from the D&D Meetup players basically never swear at the table, never mind make rape jokes. I have occasionally met male American players who swear at the table - "My PC has a goatfucker beard" said one Californian - so could be cultural difference I guess.

Nothing in the OP sounds inappropriate for 12 year olds.

We had this issue almost exactly, and it occurred twice at UK Games Expo last June. The GM's toned things down and continued and then advised the organisers who reiterated their policy that underage children should have a parent gaming with them. Games are often marked as Mature or Over 18/18+ accordingly but parents either don't read the game blurb for a pre-booked game or just dumped the kids and left the area.

Google the SF they mentioned on my smartphone, read the plots. If that doesn't tell me anything, I'd check with the parents, but I suspect they've left to rest a bit and wouldn't be easy to find;).

Then I'm going to run the game anyway, and damn those torpedoes:D!

As you might have guessed, this happened to me. I didn't put much thoughts into it at the time, just told the other players to behave like there were two 12 year olds present, and then we played. About an hour into the game, one of the mothers showed up for 20 seconds, but was gone before I could talk to here. The girls had lots of fun with their neurally linked cyborg twins, and didn't seem to mind too much that they were killed and replaced by "body snatchers" in the end.

Nonetheless, I think I should have talked to the parents first, just in case.

I don't really run games at cons anymore but when I did I always assumed a general audience and kept things PG.

I usually run horror games, so 18+ for me, but I'm okay with young players for D&D or Warhammer even - if I think the scenario ain't, then I'll just ask that 18+ is sticked on my game list during the con.

Quote from: Pyromancer;923531You have announced to run a gritty hard scifi game at a local gaming convention.

What do you do?

After having been screwed by fickle GMs, I have sort of a hard line on this: run the fvcking game.

If it was really supposed to be gritty, then it might not be exactly what you pictured, but you'll probably still have fun. I know I would.

Just roll with the punches man. Gaming is awesome and it has lots of different players. Though there are players I would not tolerate (put shortly: assholes of various stripes), I think if you are offering up a game at an open convention, you have to be tolerant of a variety of gamers.

Sorry Im definitely one those that wouldn't have permitted the kids to play. When I game with my twin 10 year old boys, we play with that in mind. When I work up a game for adults, the content is different, the conversation at the table is different, the way I approach GMing is different. It may sound petty but I would probably have had to excuse the kids, unfortunate but that's the way it goes.

Perhaps I've simply been to too many cons, but unaccompanied minors? Especially girls?  Nope.

Quote from: Caesar Slaad;923663After having been screwed by fickle GMs, I have sort of a hard line on this: run the fvcking game.

Yeah. If I was a player at that table and the the GM refused to run for them, I'd organize a walk out with the rest of the players, seek out a convention rep to complain to, and then run a game for the kids.

If the game is going to be played at a public event like a convention, then I automatically set the game up to be PG-13 because of the exact scenario that the OP has described. The great thing about public play is that your game and gamemastering style gets some exposure. The bad thing about public play is that you cannot easily control who comes to play in your game, so you have to be ready to roll with whoever comes in.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;923714Yeah. If I was a player at that table and the the GM refused to run for them, I'd organize a walk out with the rest of the players, seek out a convention rep to complain to, and then run a game for the kids.

That sounds nice, but I suspect in reality I would just walk out and go look for another game, leaving the sad children to fend for themselves.

I run the game as appropriate to the players, just like I would at my house.  My point isn't the grand unfolding of some arthouse project, it's a cool game experience for everyone present. If that includes children (and I have two young kids myself who come to cons with me), I run a game appropriate to children.

If I absolutely don't want to run a game appropriate for children, I would list it as "Mature" and let folks know when they show up...but I don't run that game, especially not for strangers.

I have personal rules about playing with people under the age of 18, sometimes 21.  Not that I'm usually dealing with mature themes or adult material, I just don't want to play with children.  Nothing against kids, of course.  It's just that I'm not equipped to deal with teenagers, and it's bad enough the hobby is populated with too many grown adults that behave like kids.

Interesting thread, and thoughtful, non-kneejerk responses.  Good on everyone.

It may just be my age talking, but I grew up in a day and age where children weren't routinely encased in body armor, they weren't supervised by adults 24-7, and people didn't call the cops or child protective services if the darling cherubs were seen on a street corner alone.  I was born and raised in Boston's immediate southern suburb, a city of 90,000 people, and at the age of 8 I got to wander about on my own: the only inflexible rule was that I wasn't allowed to cross Hancock Street, the city's main drag and which wasn't (then as now) all that safe for a kid.  Not only were my parents not arrested for neglect, my agemates had the same freedom.

If you compare FBI statistics of the late 1960s with today, the percentage of child abductions or murders hasn't budged.

A twelve-year-old girl isn't any more naive than she'd have been in 1968.  I wouldn't want a child that young at my table full-time, because I do run a lot of mature themes, but a four-hour convention run?  So you tell the other players to keep it relatively clean (and it's not that I appreciate raunch at my table), and you don't have NPCs skullfucking corpses.  It's good.

I think convention games should be run for a general audience since you never know who you are going to get.  If the convention allows minors then you should expect that you might get some and every game convention I have ever heard of allows minors.  There are also a fair number of adults who don't like R-rated content in games too.

Quote from: Pyromancer;923531You have announced to run a gritty hard scifi game at a local gaming convention.

I've been reading this thread and I confess that I am a bit baffled. Like part of the conversation is in a foreign language or something.

• What part of gritty, hard scifi is inappropriate for 12 year olds? i.e. is it the hard scifi or the gritty or somehow the combination of the two?

• And how exactly does the 12 year old's gender matter one itsy, bitsy bit to the appropriateness of hard scifi or grittiness?

The Long Island Role Players meetup (now defuncted) that used to run events and Ravenblood (now closed) effectively had a standing rule that even the most benign games had an 18+ requirement simply because they didn't want to deal with children. I argued that gaming at that age was an important aspect of my life and that they should really rethink things. I think some of them thought I was some sort of pedophile.

Regardless, there are major legal issues involved with running a game for minors in a public venue without affirmative parental consent. And for many kids RPGs are their secret clubhouse away from parental supervision. You think all those tweens who post hard core pornography on Tumblr got permission from their parent's first?

Speaking of which.

Quote from: DavetheLost;923564Be aware that the girls may be the worst offenders.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;923568Keep an eye on them and make sure they don't get out of hand with the rape jokes and over the top violence.

Quote from: Simlasa;923571Yeah, at 12 my sister was quite in the know about a lot of things. I remember her writing stories about an Indiana Jones-esque gynecologist named Smiling Gilbert Goldfinger and his nurse, Miss Moist.

Yeah, I think the desire to believe kids (especially one's own) are these pure and fragile things you must hide things from and talk down to runs smack dab into the reality that they're often more savvy and comfortable about the realities of sex and violence than adults. There's a lot of denial that comes with age.

Quote from: Pyromancer;923641just told the other players to behave like there were two 12 year olds present

You mean behave like a 12 year old and treat them as an equal unless they give me reason to treat them like a child? Because if there's one thing kids (and adults come to think of it) hate, it's being treated like a child.

They're 12.  You don't need to handle them with kid gloves, you just need to...
1. Not go to jail.  As along you're not actually a pedophile that one won't be a problem.
2. Not get sued.  That one's the big fucking problem if you don't have affirmative parental consent, or an actual signature.
3. Not be a dick.
4. Record the session and CYA.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;923809You mean behave like a 12 year old and treat them as an equal unless they give me reason to treat them like a child? Because if there's one thing kids (and adults come to think of it) hate, it's being treated like a child.

I had the feeling the other players were more lenient and non-confrontational than they would have been with adults, but I think that was ok. They weren't patronizing and let them play their characters.

Quote from: Ravenswing;923781It may just be my age talking, but I grew up in a day and age where children weren't routinely encased in body armor, they weren't supervised by adults 24-7, and people didn't call the cops or child protective services if the darling cherubs were seen on a street corner alone.

It's precisely because of this cultural shift that I wouldn't game with unaccompanied minors.  It's not for their safety; it's for mine.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;923809Yeah, I think the desire to believe kids (especially one's own) are these pure and fragile things you must hide things from and talk down to runs smack dab into the reality that they're often more savvy and comfortable about the realities of sex and violence than adults. There's a lot of denial that comes with age.

Twelve-year-olds are not adults, and assuming they have the emotional maturity and mental tools to contextualize and process "the realities of sex and violence" is irresponsible.

Quote from: AsenRG;923623Google the SF they mentioned on my smartphone, read the plots. If that doesn't tell me anything, I'd check with the parents, but I suspect they've left to rest a bit and wouldn't be easy to find;).

Then I'm going to run the game anyway, and damn those torpedoes:D!

Oh, and just in order to be honest, I must specify. I've never been in this situation and strongly suspect never will be, my youngest player was 14 at the time and it wasn't anything she hasn't already read in Stormbringer.
That's just because people around hre tend to start playing RPGs in their late teens or in their twenties, though.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;923809Regardless, there are major legal issues involved with running a game for minors in a public venue without affirmative parental consent. And for many kids RPGs are their secret clubhouse away from parental supervision. You think all those tweens who post hard core pornography on Tumblr got permission from their parent's first?

No, there really isn't; that's a fiction peddled by the "OMG Something Might HAAAAAAAPPEN!!!" helicopter types who really do think, over the last couple days, that behind every bush and in every alley in America there's an Evil Clown out to violently sodomize their cherubs.

In particular, your average SF/gaming convention doesn't sell general admission.  It peddles memberships, and by virtue of purchasing a membership, those 12 year olds get to participate in all lawful activities at the con.  I rather doubt that either your state or the OP's has an explicit law on the books forbidding minors, beyond adult supervision, from being in a room where RPGs are being played.  Mine certainly doesn't -- for one thing, it'd be a surprise to the local FLGS if it had.

I have run scheduled games at several 'cons where the GM supplies the description of the game. At several of them I ran a Don't Rest Your Head game with a special scenario which is an immediate sequel to a famous Lovecraft story. Character selection is done by picking a picture of a loony in a straight jacket. My descriptions are always explanatory that its a hard R horror game (not for sexual content, if someone asks). I did get a youngish girl walk in who begged her way into playing it (she thought the character selection was neat) but she rp'd the best lunatic of the bunch.

I won't take on the role required of the con organizers by getting tangled up in an age debate. If they let in the wrong person then its on them.

Quote from: Ravenswing;923908No, there really isn't; that's a fiction peddled by the "OMG Something Might HAAAAAAAPPEN!!!" helicopter types who really do think, over the last couple days, that behind every bush and in every alley in America there's an Evil Clown out to violently sodomize their cherubs.

Yes, there really is and it is caused by the very paranoid parents you mention.

Quote from: Ravenswing;923908
I rather doubt that either your state or the OP's has an explicit law on the books forbidding minors, beyond adult supervision, from being in a room where RPGs are being played.  Mine certainly doesn't -- for one thing, it'd be a surprise to the local FLGS if it had.

It doesn't have that law but it does have laws about duty of care and public liability.

Quote from: yosemitemike;923930Yes, there really is and it is caused by the very paranoid parents you mention ... It doesn't have that law but it does have laws about duty of care and public liability.

Yeah, I didn't think so.  But go ahead.  If you think that your state really does have a law prohibiting minors from being in the same room with an unrelated adult, unsupervised, or for an unrelated adult to run a RPG for them, then name the state and cite the law.  If you can't, then you're talking out of your ass, which is my experience with about 97% of the times a layman pretends to legal knowledge.

Quote from: Ravenswing;923967Yeah, I didn't think so.  But go ahead.  If you think that your state really does have a law prohibiting minors from being in the same room with an unrelated adult, unsupervised, or for an unrelated adult to run a RPG for them, then name the state and cite the law.  If you can't, then you're talking out of your ass, which is my experience with about 97% of the times a layman pretends to legal knowledge.

No one talked about such a law or claimed it existed so talking about it is just a straw man.  Such an absurdly specific law is not required for there to be potential legal problems either.  You seemed to have missed that part about duty of care and public liability law.  Here's some clues.  People who run a public event have a duty of care to make sure that attendees are protected from harm.  In this case, harm isn't limited to physical harm.  It includes stress and anxiety as in "My fragile child is experiencing stress and anxiety because of the inappropriate things she was exposed to in that game because the people running the venue failed to carry out their duty of care so now I will sue and name anyone with any conceivable duty of care in that situation in the lawsuit including the person running the game".  Don't try to tell me that this can't happen because we all know things like this can and have happened.  The people running the event will settle and their liability insurance will pay the settlement.  The GM named in the lawsuit probably won't have liability insurance.

In that case before you run a game at any con no matter who the attendees are you should make sure that while you are representing the con ie running the game, you are covered by their insurance.  

Easy fix.  Also never serve on a board if it doesn't have insurance to cover the directors.

Are people who run events but are not official con staff covered under that?  People who run unscheduled games?  I would guess that it's probably no to the first and very probably no to the second.  Does anyone know for sure?

Quote from: yosemitemike;923998Are people who run events but are not official con staff covered under that?  People who run unscheduled games?  I would guess that it's probably no to the first and very probably no to the second.  Does anyone know for sure?

According to the lawyer I consulted about this, the answer is "no". Only official staff are covered by the convention's insurance - if they have any; most small cons don't - and any GMs are covered only by the relevant clauses in their homeowner's policy for things like theft, loss, or breakage. The venue will also normally have their own insurance to protect them against the usual run of possible property claims.

There is also a huge difference between 'criminal' (you are breaking a law) and 'civil' (you offend me) complaints. The former have much higher standards of initiation and prosecution, and the latter are things that anyone can file if they pay the filing fees. They are a very useful form of harassment, as the costs of even the most basic defense fees to get the complaint just dismissed are usually ten times higher to the 'defendant' then the filing fees are to the 'plaintiff'. (See also the "Prenda Law" cases) Litigation costs money, and these days anyone and everyone can get offended by something and get a suit going. It cost me $800 to get rid of some people who thought that they owned what's in my brain, for example, and who wanted to use me as a stick to beat some prospective business partners.

One example of 'outrage' is I've had complaints from people about my Barsoom and Ancient Egyptian figures - "OMG!!!" - and so (after taking advice from our lawyer) I do not allow anyone under the age of 18 into the house unless they are accompanied by their parent or guardian. I have a notice on my blog that basically says "no parent, no play".

For convention games or other 'public events', I let the event organizer know what I will be providing, and let them make the decisions. In writing. I've got posters about the miniatures for display, and formal written warnings to hand out. And I keep the lawyer on speed-dial.

Quote from: Pyromancer;923531Imagine the following situation:

You have announced to run a gritty hard scifi game at a local gaming convention.

When you show up at your table, it turns out that of the six players, two are 12 year old girls. A quick conversation reveals that they have roleplayed before (once, some kind of homebrew), they chose your game because they like scifi (although you haven't heard the scifi things they mention), they claim their parents are ok with them playing (but they aren't anywhere near), and they are eager to play.

You have prepared a pretty straight forward investigation/action scenario, but it touches some mature themes. There is nothing in it that is overtly unsuited for children that you couldn't tone down or change on the spot, but the base premise still is "Blindsight" meets "Invasion of the Body Snatchers". A 12 year old might get the "rough picture" ("those aliens killed and replaced the scientists"), but they probably won't get the nuances and implications (which might be a good thing). Your pregenerated characters all have some transhumanist element in them: Cyberware, shared consciousnesses, one is an outright AI, that kind of thing.

The other players appear to be normal convention folk, perhaps a little bit on the annoying side.

What do you do?

Run the game, but tone down any mature content.

I am always flexible about how I run games at conventions and tailor them according to who is playing, what they seem to want from the game and so on.

Quote from: Pyromancer;923641As you might have guessed, this happened to me. I didn't put much thoughts into it at the time, just told the other players to behave like there were two 12 year olds present, and then we played. About an hour into the game, one of the mothers showed up for 20 seconds, but was gone before I could talk to here. The girls had lots of fun with their neurally linked cyborg twins, and didn't seem to mind too much that they were killed and replaced by "body snatchers" in the end.

Glad to see that everyone had fun.

Quote from: Pyromancer;923641Nonetheless, I think I should have talked to the parents first, just in case.

Why?

In the Conventions that I have been to, younger kids generally played in games with their parents, older kids joined games on their own. It has never been an issue. Kids on their own are freed from any parental influence and can roleplay how they want to.

While I'm in the run the game as is, I also endorse Lines and Veils at any convention game where you deal with darker subjects. I've recently seen a GM use an X card which is a card any player can hold up and the GM will veil the topic and move the story forward. As a former regular at Dragon*Con I've had a fair number of kids come to my table.The plot lines in Fractured Kingdom tend to gravitate towards the darker end of the spectrum, the introductory story involves drug use, accidental murder, and child soldiers. With that said, the Hunger Games is written for 12 year old girls and involves subjugation, abduction, the televised slaughter of children, and forced intimacy for survival, so it's really all in how you handle the topic.

Amusing side note, I've had a pair of kids, right in that age range, come to my table three years in a row. Our convention games became more like a mini-campaign as I'd run different story seeds from the website and just tweak them slightly to incorporate their actions from the year before. The first year they came alone, each following year I got a parent from each kid joining us, so by year three it was two dads and their kids. I think that last year the story I ran involved them being hunted down and trapped after losing their home and being forced to figure out how to save other refugees before facing the man hunting them.

Quote from: soltakss;924204Why?

They are still minors. If something should happen, I could go directly to the parents without having to ask around.

I've GM'd at RPG cons for over 30 years and I've been a con organizer, board member, etc for over 40 different events in California. So my comments are based on my experience as both as a GM (who revels in blood and gore and horror) and as con staff dealing with complaints from parents and GMs.

Quote from: Pyromancer;923531You have announced to run a gritty hard scifi game at a local gaming convention.

Excellent! I love gritty hard sci!

Did your announcement write up state Mature Themes?

Does your convention have a Rating system for games? AKA, "All Ages", "Mature Themese", "Adults Only"?

If not, please encourage them to do so. It saves lots of misery. Not just for RPGs, but for board games and card games where many modern games of all types can be "problematic" for the Mommy Outrage Brigade.

Quote from: Pyromancer;923531When you show up at your table, it turns out that of the six players, two are 12 year old girls.

Many parents are shitty moronic assholes.

Many parents treat cons as theme parks and GMs as free babysitters.

Fuck them.

I actually enjoy running games for teens and tweens. Like me, they are really into blood, gore and horror! But the problem is the Mommy Outrage Brigade (and the emasculated bitches in tow), so the best defense is communication BY THE CON with parents.

You may want to communicate with your con staff to provide a "Dear Parents" blurb in the con booklet or even better, a handout to parents they need to sign when they buy tickets to the event for their kids.

Quote from: Pyromancer;923531What do you do?

In the 90s? I just ran the game AS-IS.

In the 00s? I almost put "Mature Themes", "Rated R" or "Adults Only" in every description for my games. If a kid still showed up after I posted the warning, then I ran the game AS-IS.

In the 10s? I will rarely run an event without the parent present in the game or sitting next to the table. That's not been my requirement, but seriously laid down by several players who are VERY CONCERNED about the Mommy Outrage Brigade. In the past decade, I've seen adults walk away from games where there have been teens at the table and let me know that unless their parents has their ass there, the adults were bailing.

This also has been a conversation at many staff meetings. At what age, should kids be able to sign up alone to a game? I've argued 14. Others fear 18 is the only safe answer.

Quote from: Crüesader;923776I have personal rules about playing with people under the age of 18, sometimes 21.

And that's 100% fair.

I've had dads who tell me they won't play with kids. Why? The con is their vacation from "being dad" and they want "adult time". I absolutely don't begrudge them that, and my "Adults Only" description actually made them happy because they could count on the event being 18+ even if the themes were just TV PG fare.

Quote from: Bren;923803

• And how exactly does the 12 year old's gender matter one itsy, bitsy bit to the appropriateness of hard scifi or grittiness?

Allegations of misconduct are monumentally higher when girls are involved.

Quote from: daniel_ream;923865It's precisely because of this cultural shift that I wouldn't game with unaccompanied minors.  It's not for their safety; it's for mine.

As con staff, we've had many attendees say these EXACT words and ask for THIS to be official con policy.

Based on the number of complaints I've had to deal with, I have lobbied two separate cons to make their entire events age 14+. But they won't because families are worth extra badges and hotel rooms. They pay full price, buy more shit from vendors, but then play much less, so they are a net win.

Quote from: yosemitemike;923998Are people who run events but are not official con staff covered under that?  People who run unscheduled games?  I would guess that it's probably no to the first and very probably no to the second.  Does anyone know for sure?

Insurance is mostly about medical liability. GMs are volunteers. I have never seen any insurance that would protect volunteers from the complaints of attendees.

Theft is an issue at cons, especially back in the day with Magic cards. If someone stole your M:tG deck, you should tell the con staff who would probably tell you to check Lost and Found. Some cons would alert the hotel staff. In these cases, the hotel staff usually recommends you call the cops if you feel you were robbed. That's how I have seen it go down.

I have not seen any small con or regional con have insurance against the Mommy Outrage Brigade. I imagine the big cons (GenCon, Origins, PAX) have legal liability insurance in case they are sued, probably a part of a business insurance package.

I'd strongly agree with Spinchat; similar experience as a convention and event organizer, and some really great advice.

Quote from: yosemitemike;923972No one talked about such a law or claimed it existed so talking about it is just a straw man.  Such an absurdly specific law is not required for there to be potential legal problems either.  You seemed to have missed that part about duty of care and public liability law.  Here's some clues.  People who run a public event have a duty of care to make sure that attendees are protected from harm.  In this case, harm isn't limited to physical harm.  It includes stress and anxiety as in "My fragile child is experiencing stress and anxiety because of the inappropriate things she was exposed to in that game because the people running the venue failed to carry out their duty of care so now I will sue and name anyone with any conceivable duty of care in that situation in the lawsuit including the person running the game".  Don't try to tell me that this can't happen because we all know things like this can and have happened.  The people running the event will settle and their liability insurance will pay the settlement.  The GM named in the lawsuit probably won't have liability insurance.

Thank you, but I've been a legal professional for nearly 25 years now; if you'd like a definition of 'duty of care' above and beyond a layman's knowledge, I'd be happy to educate you.

Yes, indeed, lawsuits such as you describe have happened, and they are far far rarer than people fantasize about, lurid tales in the media notwithstanding.  You have about fifty times as much chance of getting yourself seriously injured driving to work in the morning as being the target of a frivolous lawsuit, but that doesn't prevent you from getting behind the wheel.

Certainly steps such as maturity ratings such as Spinachcat describes are sensible deterrents, but an even better one is a tough stance against frivolous lawsuits.  Our firm has a staunch policy against them: we won't settle, and we're more than happy to go to the other party and say that not only had they better be prepared to go the distance, but that we'll be filing for costs as well as Rule 11 sanctions for a frivolous filing.  After nicking the other side for five figures in an appellate case a few years back, it's no idle threat.

One other thing to keep in mind, following another point raised, and something I've hammered on in LARP and convention circles: while waivers are commonly believed to be "Get Out Of Litigation Free" cards, they're nothing of the sort.  In particular, no waiver every penned immunizes against negligence, and courts can be creative in defining it.

I think kids are a lot more acclimatized to things than we imagine. But then, I had a 9-12 year old who played for 3 years of my DCC campaign, and if you've seen the session reports  (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?29376-DCC-Campaign-Log)of that one, you might think I'm grossly negligent.   The kid in question didn't bat an eyelash though.

Quote from: RPGPundit;924288I think kids are a lot more acclimatized to things than we imagine. But then, I had a 9-12 year old who played for 3 years of my DCC campaign, and if you've seen the session reports  (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?29376-DCC-Campaign-Log)of that one, you might think I'm grossly negligent.   The kid in question didn't bat an eyelash though.

I think that's a bit risky, but not what I'd have considered bad when I was young.  I just live in an area with a lot of over-coddled kids with over-protective little suburban mommies with nothing better to do than get pissed off about something.  All I need is a kid having a bad game and running to its owner screaming about me saying 'Cocksucker' or something.

But just as averse as I am to playing with kids, I'm also averse to playing with total strangers as well.  For similar reasons.

Quote from: Crüesader;924295I think that's a bit risky, but not what I'd have considered bad when I was young.  I just live in an area with a lot of over-coddled kids with over-protective little suburban mommies with nothing better to do than get pissed off about something.  All I need is a kid having a bad game and running to its owner screaming about me saying 'Cocksucker' or something.

Seems to me that running a tape would halt that, though of course that wouldn't help in a situation such as the OP described.

Quote from: Ravenswing;924254
Yes, indeed, lawsuits such as you describe have happened, and they are far far rarer than people fantasize about, lurid tales in the media notwithstanding.  You have about fifty times as much chance of getting yourself seriously injured driving to work in the morning as being the target of a frivolous lawsuit, but that doesn't prevent you from getting behind the wheel.

So it can and has happened just as I said.  For many people, especially in the Western US, driving is a practical necessity if they want to keep a job and earn a living.  Running a game with minors at a convention is not a necessity for anyone.

Quote from: Ravenswing;924254
Certainly steps such as maturity ratings such as Spinachcat describes are sensible deterrents, but an even better one is a tough stance against frivolous lawsuits.  Our firm has a staunch policy against them: we won't settle, and we're more than happy to go to the other party and say that not only had they better be prepared to go the distance, but that we'll be filing for costs as well as Rule 11 sanctions for a frivolous filing.  After nicking the other side for five figures in an appellate case a few years back, it's no idle threat.

How many private individuals can afford to take that sort of stance?

Quote from: Ravenswing;924254
One other thing to keep in mind, following another point raised, and something I've hammered on in LARP and convention circles: while waivers are commonly believed to be "Get Out Of Litigation Free" cards, they're nothing of the sort.  In particular, no waiver every penned immunizes against negligence, and courts can be creative in defining it.

So this probably won't happen but it can?

OK, here is the crux of the matter for me in public gaming. Tabletop RPGs are supposed to be fun, so how much CYA work is required before they start to become un-fun? My sweet spot is to run public games so that they are PG-13. It means I cannot be graphic in my descriptions of gore or sex and I cannot cuss as much, but I can live with all that. In comparison, we moved our regular gaming from our FLGS to the local geek bar so that we could all say "fuck" without having to worry about an 8-year old Pokémon player and their parent overhearing us and getting bent out of shape - the fallout of which could hurt the FLGS owner and his business more than my game.

Quote from: jeff37923;924312OK, here is the crux of the matter for me in public gaming. Tabletop RPGs are supposed to be fun, so how much CYA work is required before they start to become un-fun?

I think

Quote from: Ravenswing;924304Seems to me that running a tape would halt that, though of course that wouldn't help in a situation such as the OP described.

needing to tape sessions to cover your ass would be there.

Quote from: yosemitemike;924315I think



needing to tape sessions to cover your ass would be there.

I agree.

I live in California which (I think) requires the consent of everyone in the conversation before I can record it.  Can you imagine that at a convention?  I am going to record this game session for legal reasons so I need everyone to give their consent to be recorded before we can begin...

I have been asked to run RPGs for the kids at the local public library. Ages 11-18 or so. These are mostly kids who are involved in the anime Club at the library. I have a pretty good idea what their exposure leveltollerance for sex and violence is.

I will simply keep my games PG-13 and respect the venue we are playing in. Much the same as I would in the main hall of a convention. If anyone can walk up to my game table at any time I will run a different game than if I am in a private space with a group of adults I know well.

Dark and gritty doesn't have to mean very hard R rating though. A lot of Charles Dickens is pretty grim and gritty, as is Mary Shelley's Frankenstein. I would consider the Maltese Falcon to be a grim and gritty film and it would barely slide into a PG rating. Jaws was rated PG.

Quote from: Spinachcat;924236Allegations of misconduct are monumentally higher when girls are involved.

That's an argument unrelated to the scifi and the grittiness. The guy could have run a My Little Ponies RPG for tween girls and ended up with allegations of misconduct.

I have a feeling that if you distrust kids and their parents enough that you'd need to tape it, you should just not play with those kids. I mean hells, taping the activity feels creepier to me than anything. I've done several gaming presentations for kids and never had a single issue - true, they were all games out in the open, but still.

Quote from: Pyromancer;923531Imagine the following situation:

You have announced to run a gritty hard scifi game at a local gaming convention.

When you show up at your table, it turns out that of the six players, two are 12 year old girls. A quick conversation reveals that they have roleplayed before (once, some kind of homebrew), they chose your game because they like scifi (although you haven't heard the scifi things they mention), they claim their parents are ok with them playing (but they aren't anywhere near), and they are eager to play.

You have prepared a pretty straight forward investigation/action scenario, but it touches some mature themes. There is nothing in it that is overtly unsuited for children that you couldn't tone down or change on the spot, but the base premise still is "Blindsight" meets "Invasion of the Body Snatchers". A 12 year old might get the "rough picture" ("those aliens killed and replaced the scientists"), but they probably won't get the nuances and implications (which might be a good thing). Your pregenerated characters all have some transhumanist element in them: Cyberware, shared consciousnesses, one is an outright AI, that kind of thing.

The other players appear to be normal convention folk, perhaps a little bit on the annoying side.

What do you do?

I run the game, generally.  If I'm really twitchy, I get the girls' parents cellphone number and give them a quick call to see what's up and if it's okay, but generally in the Colorado area everyone more or less is used to the folks who show up to our conventions and we're pretty together.  But assuming I didn't mark the game as 'Mature Themes' when I put the description in the booklet, I run.  (If I did put Mature Themes and they show up anyway, I'd probably try to figure out how mature I want to keep it, definitely call the parents, and/or remove them from the game, but that's extra leeway I consider myself given when I've advertised it like that.)

Quote from: Ravenswing;924304Seems to me that running a tape would halt that, though of course that wouldn't help in a situation such as the OP described.

I would be very uncomfortable recording a session with children, even with parental approval.

Quote from: yosemitemike;924323I live in California which (I think) requires the consent of everyone in the conversation before I can record it.  Can you imagine that at a convention?  I am going to record this game session for legal reasons so I need everyone to give their consent to be recorded before we can begin...

IANAL, but this has come up before with recording of different types of training sessions.  At a convention, out in the open, there probably is not a reasonable expectation that someone not engaged in the conversation would not be able to overhear it (say at the next table over or simply walking by, or stopping and watching for a few), so as a result, not having such an reasonable expectation, the parties do not have to consent, as it is not a "confidential conversation".  Of course the problem is what defines "reasonable", you may not want to spend the money to find out in court.

Of course recording a minor may be a completely different set of laws...

Quote from: CRKrueger;924479At a convention, out in the open, there probably is not a reasonable expectation that someone not engaged in the conversation would not be able to overhear it (say at the next table over or simply walking by, or stopping and watching for a few), so as a result, not having such an reasonable expectation, the parties do not have to consent, as it is not a "confidential conversation".

You generally have a reasonable expectation of privacy anywhere that isn't a public space.  Since conventions are held on private property and require paid admission, that makes them not a public space.  IANAL either, but I would not assume that "no reasonable expectation of privacy" applies in a convention.  I've seen case law where it didn't apply in a sports stadium.

Quote from: daniel_ream;924481You generally have a reasonable expectation of privacy anywhere that isn't a public space.  Since conventions are held on private property and require paid admission, that makes them not a public space.  IANAL either, but I would not assume that "no reasonable expectation of privacy" applies in a convention.  I've seen case law where it didn't apply in a sports stadium.

Interesting, it would be hard to have a conversation in a sports stadium where you weren't in obvious earshot of others, same with most convention floors.  But, that's why you might not want to pay to find out the definition of "reasonable".

Quote from: Ravenswing;924254Thank you, but I've been a legal professional for nearly 25 years now; if you'd like a definition of 'duty of care' above and beyond a layman's knowledge, I'd be happy to educate you.

Ravenswing, I'd definitely be interested in the legal definition and your opinion on it.

Also, as an attorney, how much real liability does a GM have if the parent gets offended by the game? How much real liability does the Convention have if a volunteer GM says something that offends an attendee, or if a GM is accused of having "age inappropriate" game elements with minors present?

BTW, does the age of the minor have some legal differences? AKA, gaming with 11 year olds vs. 14 year olds?

Quote from: DavetheLost;924326I have been asked to run RPGs for the kids at the local public library.

Will a second adult be present? Will there be an open door for the room?

A decade ago, my only response would have been "that's awesome, have fun!", but today there's too much weirdness in the air.

Quote from: Bren;924329That's an argument unrelated to the scifi and the grittiness. The guy could have run a My Little Ponies RPG for tween girls and ended up with allegations of misconduct.

Maybe I missed the context. My reading was the OP was concerned about teen girls in the game and his game just happened to be gritty scifi, aka the issue of minors at the table. But I agree, there's no issue of genre vs. gender.

Quote from: soltakss;924474I would be very uncomfortable recording a session with children, even with parental approval.

Work in telesales for a while it will cure you of that.
As a rule recording will save your ass more often then not if you are doing your job.

Quote from: Pyromancer;923531You have announced to run a gritty hard scifi game at a local gaming convention.

When you show up at your table, it turns out that of the six players, two are 12 year old girls. A quick conversation reveals that they have roleplayed before (once, some kind of homebrew), they chose your game because they like scifi (although you haven't heard the scifi things they mention), they claim their parents are ok with them playing (but they aren't anywhere near), and they are eager to play.

QuoteWhat do you do?

Pass out X cards -- to the other players :D. I played 5e at a game store for a short time at a table with three kids (two girls, one boy) who must have been around ten and their three fathers (I'm pretty sure). It felt weird (always wondering if the fathers were eyeing me as a possible dangerous pervert), I was ready to tone down my own play (which is generally no worse than PG anyway), but it was the three kids who were surprisingly violent and bloodthirsty, even by D&D standards.

Quote from: Pyromancer;923641As you might have guessed, this happened to me. I didn't put much thoughts into it at the time, just told the other players to behave like there were two 12 year olds present, and then we played. About an hour into the game, one of the mothers showed up for 20 seconds, but was gone before I could talk to here. The girls had lots of fun with their neurally linked cyborg twins, and didn't seem to mind too much that they were killed and replaced by "body snatchers" in the end.

Nonetheless, I think I should have talked to the parents first, just in case.

Glad to hear it turned out OK. I used to run conventions and was always ready to freak out over all sorts of unlikely things that might happen. But unless you realized you had failed to attach the necessary qualifier "Mature" or "18+" or whatever to the game description in the program book, this is not something I would have freaked out about. But, it's also been more than 15 years since the last convention I ran, so maybe I would worry now. Certainly the convention should have some policy about how old kids have to be to run around on their own.

Quote from: Spinachcat;924490Maybe I missed the context. My reading was the OP was concerned about teen girls in the game and his game just happened to be gritty scifi, aka the issue of minors at the table. But I agree, there's no issue of genre vs. gender.

I read the genre as being part of the concern. I agree that a situation with a male GM and female players may increase the risk of parental or other hysteria.

This debate is somewhat personal for me because had it not been for gaming at around that age I don't know where I would be, as I was already weird, isolated, and didn't relate to peers my age. And now new barriers at least as bad as the old ones have been created by all the fearmongering done by those claiming to fight for inclusion and diversity.

Quote from: daniel_ream;923865Twelve-year-olds are not adults, and assuming they have the emotional maturity and mental tools to contextualize and process "the realities of sex and violence" is irresponsible.

All I said was they're often more savvy and comfortable about the realities of sex and violence than adults. I never assume anyone has the emotional maturity and mental tools to contextualize and process anything at at any age, which is why I always get affirmative consent.

But can minors legally give that consent?

Quote from: Certified;924207the Hunger Games is written for 12 year old girls and involves subjugation, abduction, the televised slaughter of children, and forced intimacy for survival,

I guess the author and publisher assume that 12 year old girls have the emotional maturity and mental tools to contextualize that sort of thing.

Quote from: Lynn;923913I did get a youngish girl walk in who begged her way into playing it (she thought the character selection was neat) but she rp'd the best lunatic of the bunch.

And it seems age doesn't imply anything about roleplaying chops either.

Quote from: Ravenswing;923908No, there really isn't; that's a fiction peddled by the "OMG Something Might HAAAAAAAPPEN!!!" helicopter types who really do think, over the last couple days, that behind every bush and in every alley in America there's an Evil Clown out to violently sodomize their cherubs.

Dude, we live in an age where you can lose your job for saying "I'd fork that dongle" to your bud sitting next to you at a presentation, and this kind of thing is only becoming more common.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;924040There is also a huge difference between 'criminal' (you are breaking a law) and 'civil' (you offend me) complaints. The former have much higher standards of initiation and prosecution, and the latter are things that anyone can file if they pay the filing fees. They are a very useful form of harassment, as the costs of even the most basic defense fees to get the complaint just dismissed are usually ten times higher to the 'defendant' then the filing fees are to the 'plaintiff'. (See also the "Prenda Law" cases) Litigation costs money, and these days anyone and everyone can get offended by something and get a suit going. It cost me $800 to get rid of some people who thought that they owned what's in my brain, for example, and who wanted to use me as a stick to beat some prospective business partners.

One example of 'outrage' is I've had complaints from people about my Barsoom and Ancient Egyptian figures - "OMG!!!" - and so (after taking advice from our lawyer) I do not allow anyone under the age of 18 into the house unless they are accompanied by their parent or guardian. I have a notice on my blog that basically says "no parent, no play".

For convention games or other 'public events', I let the event organizer know what I will be providing, and let them make the decisions. In writing. I've got posters about the miniatures for display, and formal written warnings to hand out. And I keep the lawyer on speed-dial.

And it doesn't matter how common this sort of thing is if you're the one being hit.

Quote from: Headless;923973In that case before you run a game at any con no matter who the attendees are you should make sure that while you are representing the con ie running the game, you are covered by their insurance.

So which cons/events do this and won't throw you under the bus the minute you become a liability for them?

Quote from: Spinachcat;924236In the 90s? I just ran the game AS-IS.

In the 00s? I almost put "Mature Themes", "Rated R" or "Adults Only" in every description for my games. If a kid still showed up after I posted the warning, then I ran the game AS-IS.

In the 10s? I will rarely run an event without the parent present in the game or sitting next to the table. That's not been my requirement, but seriously laid down by several players who are VERY CONCERNED about the Mommy Outrage Brigade. In the past decade, I've seen adults walk away from games where there have been teens at the table and let me know that unless their parents has their ass there, the adults were bailing.

This also has been a conversation at many staff meetings. At what age, should kids be able to sign up alone to a game? I've argued 14. Others fear 18 is the only safe answer.

I've been witness to the same trend.

Quote from: Spinachcat;924236Allegations of misconduct are monumentally higher when girls are involved.

Sadly true, and ironically a reason women are now excluded from participating in activities they otherwise wouldn't. Seems the so called SJWs have achieved exactly the opposite of what they intended.

#OrDIDThey

Quote from: Spinachcat;924236Based on the number of complaints I've had to deal with, I have lobbied two separate cons to make their entire events age 14+. But they won't because families are worth extra badges and hotel rooms. They pay full price, buy more shit from vendors, but then play much less, so they are a net win.

#AllAboutTheBenjamins

Quote from: Ravenswing;924254Certainly steps such as maturity ratings such as Spinachcat describes are sensible deterrents, but an even better one is a tough stance against frivolous lawsuits.  Our firm has a staunch policy against them: we won't settle, and we're more than happy to go to the other party and say that not only had they better be prepared to go the distance, but that we'll be filing for costs as well as Rule 11 sanctions for a frivolous filing.  After nicking the other side for five figures in an appellate case a few years back, it's no idle threat.

I guess if a frivolous lawsuit is ever filed against me you'll represent me pro bono then, huh? If not, I think you vastly underestimate the ability of those who don't happen to be lawyers with a quarter century of experience and the support of a law firm to fight these lawsuits.

Quote from: CRKrueger;923814Record the session and CYA.

Quote from: Ravenswing;924304Seems to me that running a tape would halt that,

Quote from: yosemitemike;924315needing to tape sessions to cover your ass would be there.

Quote from: yosemitemike;924323I live in California which (I think) requires the consent of everyone in the conversation before I can record it.

Quote from: soltakss;924474I would be very uncomfortable recording a session with children, even with parental approval.

Quote from: CRKrueger;924479Of course recording a minor may be a completely different set of laws...

Unless things are kept strictly PG, recording this kind of thing is more likely to incriminate than exonerate you (or another player), and any such recording can be subpoenaed, which forfeits your 5th amendment protections.

To record a conversation, 11 states (including California) require the consent of all parties involved (though California has an exception when it comes to recording suspected criminal activity). Problem is an unemancipated minor cannot consent to being recorded and such consent will be thrown out of court.

Video is slightly different, where consent is typically only required for recording nudity and sex acts, but the laws are changing. For example, Georgia passed a bill in 2010 that makes it illegal for anyone but a parent to photograph or videotape a child (http://communications-media.lawyers.com/privacy-law/child-photography-or-videotaping-consent-laws-are-changing.html). They also ruled that upskirt photography was legal in public places (https://www.google.com/search?q=georgia+upskirt), so their protections are far from consistent.

Quote from: Rincewind1;924349I have a feeling that if you distrust kids and their parents enough that you'd need to tape it, you should just not play with those kids.

Yeah, and what's a business contracts between friends for anyway. I mean they already trust each other, right?

Reasonable precautionary measures do not equal an unworkable lack of trust.

Quote from: daniel_ream;924481You generally have a reasonable expectation of privacy anywhere that isn't a public space.

As far as the law is concerned you don't even have a reasonable expectation to privacy as a guest in someone's home (http://lawcomic.net/guide/?p=1688).

And just in case you don't think that includes game night (http://lawcomic.net/guide/?p=1674)...

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;924513All I said was they're often more savvy and comfortable about the realities of sex and violence than adults.

And I'm saying that's a giant steaming pile of BS.  They are not "more savvy and comfortable about the realities of sex and violence" because they are 12 years old.  12 year olds with the actual life experience to know anything about the realities of sex and violence are, by definition, abused and traumatized.

QuoteI guess the author and publisher assume that 12 year old girls have the emotional maturity and mental tools to contextualize that sort of thing.

Since the average twelve-year-old doesn't quite get that the trilogy is about the traumatic effect of being a child soldier, I'd say not.

QuoteAnd it seems age doesn't imply anything about roleplaying chops either.

I would be extremely suspicious of any twelve-year-old that could convincingly portray actual mental illness, as opposed to generic fishmalk #17.  (see also, "by definition, abused and traumatized")

If I offered a convention game not suitable for kids, the event description would say "adults only," thereby giving me the freedom to turn away the kids if I wanted. For example, maybe a parent shows up with the kid and says, "It's cool, she's really mature and I'm playing too," in which case I might agree. Also, I don't think "gritty hard scifi" can substitute for "adults only."

Quote from: daniel_ream;924515And I'm saying that's a giant steaming pile of BS.  They are not "more savvy and comfortable about the realities of sex and violence" because they are 12 years old.

"often more savvy and comfortable about the realities of sex and violence than adults".

Funny how removing words can change the meaning of a sentence, huh? But you already knew that.

Quote from: daniel_ream;92451512 year olds with the actual life experience to know anything about the realities of sex and violence are, by definition, abused and traumatized.

So precocious children are abused and traumatized. Got it.

But let's say you're right, as I'm sure in at least one case you must be: Are you saying they should not be allowed to participate in group activities where they can draw on that experience? Are you saying playing these games will only traumatize them further?

Because you're not really in a position to address their trauma when running a game, but you might be in one where you don't have to shun them because of it, which might be nice because they might be in a position where their age related peers cannot relate.

Quote from: daniel_ream;924515Since the average twelve-year-old doesn't quite get that the trilogy is about the traumatic effect of being a child soldier, I'd say not.

Have you asked them? How do you know? Are you 12?

Quote from: daniel_ream;924515I would be extremely suspicious of any twelve-year-old that could convincingly portray actual mental illness, as opposed to generic fishmalk #17.  (see also, "by definition, abused and traumatized")

So any 12 year old who has the empathy to understand and express what mental illness is like is suspicious? What do you suspect them of, living with a friend or relative with mental illness?

Let me break it down for those reading at home.

Blanket policies, for all the good they do, are still the product of fear and ignorance, essentially a form of institutionalized prejudice, and make it more difficult to treat situations on a case by case basis. This applies as much to children as adults, and I think we've all seen how harmful treating people as a category rather than an individual is, especially when that category is not one that individual identifies with.

The attitude above, which takes an entitled stance and quotes out of context to make a moral judgment which appears helpful but is actually harmful to members of the group in question is exactly the kind of destructive hypocrisy that sticks in my craw. So thanks for providing such a concise example daniel_ream. I'm certain I will be referencing it in the future :)

And before someone spins it, because I know they'll try, I'm not saying it's OK to run the RPG equivalent of a porn directed by Eli Roth with children present. Hell, that's not OK for most adults! But for fuck sake you only have to browse Tumblr to see kids are pretty familiar with a lot of dark stuff, and dismissing them simply because they're 'children' is not a very good way to further the dialogue.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;925022"often more savvy and comfortable about the realities of sex and violence than adults".

Funny how removing words can change the meaning of a sentence, huh? But you already knew that.

Put the qualifiers back in.  You're still wrong.

QuoteSo precocious children are abused and traumatized. Got it.

I'm curious - do you actually believe that prepubescent children are "often more savvy and comfortable with the realities of sex and violence than adults"?  Do you actually believe that?  I'm including all those words, there - "often", "realities", "than adults".  We're not talking about "ooh, some twelve-year-olds got their hands on a porno/Robocop DVD and they're parroting what they saw less self-consciously than the average adult", because that is by definition not the reality of sex and violence.

QuoteBut let's say you're right, as I'm sure in at least one case you must be: Are you saying they should not be allowed to participate in group activities where they can draw on that experience? Are you saying playing these games will only traumatize them further?

If you think abused or traumatized children ought to be drawing on that experience anywhere but in a controlled therapy session, you are dangerously ignorant.

QuoteSo any 12 year old who has the empathy to understand and express what mental illness is like is suspicious? What do you suspect them of, living with a friend or relative with mental illness?

Yes.  If a twelve year old were to start accurately portraying mental illness at a gaming table in a recreational context, I would immediately suspect that they were in close regular contact with someone with severe mental illness, because that's the most likely explanation for how they know what mental illness looks like.

News flash: twelve year olds are not known for empathy or nuanced expression.  Because they're twelve.

QuoteThe attitude above, which takes an entitled stance and quotes out of context to make a moral judgment which appears helpful but is actually harmful to members of the group in question is exactly the kind of destructive hypocrisy that sticks in my craw. So thanks for providing such a concise example daniel_ream. I'm certain I will be referencing it in the future :)

You're a massive twat.  And if what you've described here is even remotely close to your attitude about children's exposure to sex and violence, you shouldn't be allowed near them.

QuoteBut for fuck sake you only have to browse Tumblr to see kids are pretty familiar with a lot of dark stuff, and dismissing them simply because they're 'children' is not a very good way to further the dialogue.

"Lots of kids have more access to hard core porn and violence than ever before.  And that has no effect on their psychological and emotional development at all."

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;925022Have you asked them? How do you know? Are you 12?

Quote from: daniel_ream;925049You're a massive twat.

I love this place!

Quote from: daniel_ream;925049Put the qualifiers back in.  You're still wrong.

Then why did you remove them?

Quote from: daniel_ream;925049I'm curious - do you actually believe that prepubescent children are "often more savvy and comfortable with the realities of sex and violence than adults"?

• prepubescent children? No. #SawWhatYouDidThere
  
• 12 -14 year olds? Surprisingly often. #BraveNewWorld
  
• 15-18 year olds? almost always.
• 18-24 year olds? It's more surprising when they aren't.

And I don't know if you've noticed, but teen pregnancy (let alone sexual activity) rates have been on a stead decline and are currently at a record low. Would you chalk this up ignorance?

Quote from: daniel_ream;925049If you think abused or traumatized children ought to be drawing on that experience anywhere but in a controlled therapy session, you are dangerously ignorant.

'Ought' to has nothing to do with it. They'll be drawing on it regardless, and chances are you won't even notice when they are.

So are you saying they should never interact with any adults outside of a controlled therapy session?

Quote from: daniel_ream;925049If a twelve year old were to start accurately portraying mental illness at a gaming table in a recreational context, I would immediately suspect that they were in close regular contact with someone with severe mental illness, because that's the most likely explanation for how they know what mental illness looks like.

So what? Why is that important? Would you exclude them because of it?

Quote from: daniel_ream;925049News flash: twelve year olds are not known for empathy or nuanced expression.  Because they're twelve.

No shit.

Apparently neither are you.

Quote from: daniel_ream;925049And if what you've described here is even remotely close to your attitude about children's exposure to sex and violence, you shouldn't be allowed near them.

Yeah, god forbid they feel comfortable enough to share their trauma with me.

Traumatized kids tend not to share their trauma with other kids, let alone their parents. And while I haven't had tweens approach me, I've had numerous teens do so, and they've all been far more centered than the traumatized adults I've dealt with. Regardless, the implication that I approve of that exposure or that I'd actively harm them is bullshit.

But that's besides the point as we're just talking about running an RPG for some kinds at a con. So if you think I'm a threat to these children while surrounded by other adults (usually parents) at a public venue then by all means it is your moral duty to inform the authorities and make a right fool of yourself.

Quote from: daniel_ream;925049Lots of kids have more access to hard core porn and violence than ever before.  And that has no effect on their psychological and emotional development at all.

Further the dialogue, not dismiss the effects.

Of course it affects their psychological and emotional development, which is all the more reason to acknowledge it, which is not the same as approving of it.

I like children at conventions provided they're properly cooked.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;925022Have you asked them? How do you know? Are you 12?

American scientists have proven that every adult once was a 12 year old! It's a scientific fact!

I have to say I played a 40k game in the FLGS recently against a kid that couldn't have been older than 12.  Very polite kid, very nice.  After our game he runs me down in the parking lot to offer me more paints because he's "not allowed to buy anything new until Christmas".  I couldn't take his paints, but I have to say- I was impressed with the young man's manners.

@OT: I would tune down the "mature" stuff. 12 year old girls, come on. As a third player, I would be uncomfortable when the GM goes full "mature" on this group.

Quote from: jux;925305@OT: I would tune down the "mature" stuff. 12 year old girls, come on. As a third player, I would be uncomfortable when the GM goes full "mature" on this group.

Nice use of quotes, but that still doesn't get you out of defining 'mature'. In fact nobody has bothered to identify the elements which might be harmful to children during this entire discussion at all.

America for example is a tremendously infantilizing country and has consistently raised the age limits for legal sexual activity, drinking alcohol, and tobacco use. Strangely they haven't done so for military service or gun ownership, which means The State considers you emotionally mature and responsible enough to kill other human beings and wield a deadly weapon before it does with you having sex, drinking, or smoking.

And that's pretty fucked up.

So for the sake of the children, what concepts are we talking about when we say mature?

You need to be really clear up front about the expected age and maturity level of a convention event.  If you aren't willing to specify adults only, don't write an adventure with mature themes.  As to the relative maturity level of a 12 year old girl, that's completely subjective.  One kid might be quite worldly, and the next might have led a very sheltered life.

Regardless of how 'worldly' a 12-year-old is there are certain subjects best avoided if you're an adult and dealing with them: sex, extreme violence/gore and drug use. Putting aside posturing doing so would likely get you in shit with their parents and/or labelled as a creep.

Quote from: Voros;964030Regardless of how 'worldly' a 12-year-old is there are certain subjects best avoided if you're an adult and dealing with them: sex, extreme violence/gore and drug use. Putting aside posturing doing so would likely get you in shit with their parents and/or labelled as a creep.

Zzonga abuse in the Alphatian empire featured quite bigly in the Mystara game I run with my 9 year old... He seemed to cope ok - his PC Princess Hope Karameikos swiftly informed on her drug-dealing fellow Sundsvall University students, who were expelled.

As for gore, he's much less squeamish than I am - but this is one of those areas that vary by child, so if your Convention game is going to be R-rated you definitely want it adults only, or at least require parents present.

Still waiting for the rush of fresh new tabletop RPG players that got their start in the hobby just recently from playing in convention games.

Anyway, seems odd that parents would not want to meet GMs who are running games for their kids.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;925162I like children at conventions provided they're properly cooked.

This is what happens when you become a Methuselah.

(I feel the same way).

I like children at my games, I just can't eat a whole one by myself any more.

I have run a lot of games at cons.

But in general? I keep the material I use fit for public exposure. I don't dip into purely adult topics at conventions. Nor anything that would be considered obcenity.

Cons are public venues where you never expect who might join the games you are running. And that's how I treat them.

I think usually kids are both less 'sheltered' and less prone to being in any way 'traumatized' by the things we imagine will traumatize them (at least in terms of depictions on tv, much less in RPGs) than people think. The real problem isn't the kids, it's the parents who will freak out if their kid hears a dirty word.