Quote from: Ravenswing;924254Thank you, but I've been a legal professional for nearly 25 years now; if you'd like a definition of 'duty of care' above and beyond a layman's knowledge, I'd be happy to educate you.

Ravenswing, I'd definitely be interested in the legal definition and your opinion on it.

Also, as an attorney, how much real liability does a GM have if the parent gets offended by the game? How much real liability does the Convention have if a volunteer GM says something that offends an attendee, or if a GM is accused of having "age inappropriate" game elements with minors present?

BTW, does the age of the minor have some legal differences? AKA, gaming with 11 year olds vs. 14 year olds?

Quote from: DavetheLost;924326I have been asked to run RPGs for the kids at the local public library.

Will a second adult be present? Will there be an open door for the room?

A decade ago, my only response would have been "that's awesome, have fun!", but today there's too much weirdness in the air.

Quote from: Bren;924329That's an argument unrelated to the scifi and the grittiness. The guy could have run a My Little Ponies RPG for tween girls and ended up with allegations of misconduct.

Maybe I missed the context. My reading was the OP was concerned about teen girls in the game and his game just happened to be gritty scifi, aka the issue of minors at the table. But I agree, there's no issue of genre vs. gender.

Quote from: soltakss;924474I would be very uncomfortable recording a session with children, even with parental approval.

Work in telesales for a while it will cure you of that.
As a rule recording will save your ass more often then not if you are doing your job.

Quote from: Pyromancer;923531You have announced to run a gritty hard scifi game at a local gaming convention.

When you show up at your table, it turns out that of the six players, two are 12 year old girls. A quick conversation reveals that they have roleplayed before (once, some kind of homebrew), they chose your game because they like scifi (although you haven't heard the scifi things they mention), they claim their parents are ok with them playing (but they aren't anywhere near), and they are eager to play.

QuoteWhat do you do?

Pass out X cards -- to the other players . I played 5e at a game store for a short time at a table with three kids (two girls, one boy) who must have been around ten and their three fathers (I'm pretty sure). It felt weird (always wondering if the fathers were eyeing me as a possible dangerous pervert), I was ready to tone down my own play (which is generally no worse than PG anyway), but it was the three kids who were surprisingly violent and bloodthirsty, even by D&D standards.

Quote from: Pyromancer;923641As you might have guessed, this happened to me. I didn't put much thoughts into it at the time, just told the other players to behave like there were two 12 year olds present, and then we played. About an hour into the game, one of the mothers showed up for 20 seconds, but was gone before I could talk to here. The girls had lots of fun with their neurally linked cyborg twins, and didn't seem to mind too much that they were killed and replaced by "body snatchers" in the end.

Nonetheless, I think I should have talked to the parents first, just in case.

Glad to hear it turned out OK. I used to run conventions and was always ready to freak out over all sorts of unlikely things that might happen. But unless you realized you had failed to attach the necessary qualifier "Mature" or "18+" or whatever to the game description in the program book, this is not something I would have freaked out about. But, it's also been more than 15 years since the last convention I ran, so maybe I would worry now. Certainly the convention should have some policy about how old kids have to be to run around on their own.

Quote from: Spinachcat;924490Maybe I missed the context. My reading was the OP was concerned about teen girls in the game and his game just happened to be gritty scifi, aka the issue of minors at the table. But I agree, there's no issue of genre vs. gender.

I read the genre as being part of the concern. I agree that a situation with a male GM and female players may increase the risk of parental or other hysteria.

This debate is somewhat personal for me because had it not been for gaming at around that age I don't know where I would be, as I was already weird, isolated, and didn't relate to peers my age. And now new barriers at least as bad as the old ones have been created by all the fearmongering done by those claiming to fight for inclusion and diversity.

Quote from: daniel_ream;923865Twelve-year-olds are not adults, and assuming they have the emotional maturity and mental tools to contextualize and process "the realities of sex and violence" is irresponsible.

All I said was they're often more savvy and comfortable about the realities of sex and violence than adults. I never assume anyone has the emotional maturity and mental tools to contextualize and process anything at at any age, which is why I always get affirmative consent.

But can minors legally give that consent?

Quote from: Certified;924207the Hunger Games is written for 12 year old girls and involves subjugation, abduction, the televised slaughter of children, and forced intimacy for survival,

I guess the author and publisher assume that 12 year old girls have the emotional maturity and mental tools to contextualize that sort of thing.

Quote from: Lynn;923913I did get a youngish girl walk in who begged her way into playing it (she thought the character selection was neat) but she rp'd the best lunatic of the bunch.

And it seems age doesn't imply anything about roleplaying chops either.

Quote from: Ravenswing;923908No, there really isn't; that's a fiction peddled by the "OMG Something Might HAAAAAAAPPEN!!!" helicopter types who really do think, over the last couple days, that behind every bush and in every alley in America there's an Evil Clown out to violently sodomize their cherubs.

Dude, we live in an age where you can lose your job for saying "I'd fork that dongle" to your bud sitting next to you at a presentation, and this kind of thing is only becoming more common.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;924040There is also a huge difference between 'criminal' (you are breaking a law) and 'civil' (you offend me) complaints. The former have much higher standards of initiation and prosecution, and the latter are things that anyone can file if they pay the filing fees. They are a very useful form of harassment, as the costs of even the most basic defense fees to get the complaint just dismissed are usually ten times higher to the 'defendant' then the filing fees are to the 'plaintiff'. (See also the "Prenda Law" cases) Litigation costs money, and these days anyone and everyone can get offended by something and get a suit going. It cost me $800 to get rid of some people who thought that they owned what's in my brain, for example, and who wanted to use me as a stick to beat some prospective business partners.

One example of 'outrage' is I've had complaints from people about my Barsoom and Ancient Egyptian figures - "OMG!!!" - and so (after taking advice from our lawyer) I do not allow anyone under the age of 18 into the house unless they are accompanied by their parent or guardian. I have a notice on my blog that basically says "no parent, no play".

For convention games or other 'public events', I let the event organizer know what I will be providing, and let them make the decisions. In writing. I've got posters about the miniatures for display, and formal written warnings to hand out. And I keep the lawyer on speed-dial.

And it doesn't matter how common this sort of thing is if you're the one being hit.

Quote from: Headless;923973In that case before you run a game at any con no matter who the attendees are you should make sure that while you are representing the con ie running the game, you are covered by their insurance.

So which cons/events do this and won't throw you under the bus the minute you become a liability for them?

Quote from: Spinachcat;924236In the 90s? I just ran the game AS-IS.

In the 00s? I almost put "Mature Themes", "Rated R" or "Adults Only" in every description for my games. If a kid still showed up after I posted the warning, then I ran the game AS-IS.

In the 10s? I will rarely run an event without the parent present in the game or sitting next to the table. That's not been my requirement, but seriously laid down by several players who are VERY CONCERNED about the Mommy Outrage Brigade. In the past decade, I've seen adults walk away from games where there have been teens at the table and let me know that unless their parents has their ass there, the adults were bailing.

This also has been a conversation at many staff meetings. At what age, should kids be able to sign up alone to a game? I've argued 14. Others fear 18 is the only safe answer.

I've been witness to the same trend.

Quote from: Spinachcat;924236Allegations of misconduct are monumentally higher when girls are involved.

Sadly true, and ironically a reason women are now excluded from participating in activities they otherwise wouldn't. Seems the so called SJWs have achieved exactly the opposite of what they intended.

#OrDIDThey

Quote from: Spinachcat;924236Based on the number of complaints I've had to deal with, I have lobbied two separate cons to make their entire events age 14+. But they won't because families are worth extra badges and hotel rooms. They pay full price, buy more shit from vendors, but then play much less, so they are a net win.

#AllAboutTheBenjamins

Quote from: Ravenswing;924254Certainly steps such as maturity ratings such as Spinachcat describes are sensible deterrents, but an even better one is a tough stance against frivolous lawsuits.  Our firm has a staunch policy against them: we won't settle, and we're more than happy to go to the other party and say that not only had they better be prepared to go the distance, but that we'll be filing for costs as well as Rule 11 sanctions for a frivolous filing.  After nicking the other side for five figures in an appellate case a few years back, it's no idle threat.

I guess if a frivolous lawsuit is ever filed against me you'll represent me pro bono then, huh? If not, I think you vastly underestimate the ability of those who don't happen to be lawyers with a quarter century of experience and the support of a law firm to fight these lawsuits.

Quote from: CRKrueger;923814Record the session and CYA.

Quote from: Ravenswing;924304Seems to me that running a tape would halt that,

Quote from: yosemitemike;924315needing to tape sessions to cover your ass would be there.

Quote from: yosemitemike;924323I live in California which (I think) requires the consent of everyone in the conversation before I can record it.

Quote from: soltakss;924474I would be very uncomfortable recording a session with children, even with parental approval.

Quote from: CRKrueger;924479Of course recording a minor may be a completely different set of laws...

Unless things are kept strictly PG, recording this kind of thing is more likely to incriminate than exonerate you (or another player), and any such recording can be subpoenaed, which forfeits your 5th amendment protections.

To record a conversation, 11 states (including California) require the consent of all parties involved (though California has an exception when it comes to recording suspected criminal activity). Problem is an unemancipated minor cannot consent to being recorded and such consent will be thrown out of court.

Video is slightly different, where consent is typically only required for recording nudity and sex acts, but the laws are changing. For example, Georgia passed a bill in 2010 that makes it illegal for anyone but a parent to photograph or videotape a child. They also ruled that upskirt photography was legal in public places, so their protections are far from consistent.

Quote from: Rincewind1;924349I have a feeling that if you distrust kids and their parents enough that you'd need to tape it, you should just not play with those kids.

Yeah, and what's a business contracts between friends for anyway. I mean they already trust each other, right?

Reasonable precautionary measures do not equal an unworkable lack of trust.

Quote from: daniel_ream;924481You generally have a reasonable expectation of privacy anywhere that isn't a public space.

As far as the law is concerned you don't even have a reasonable expectation to privacy as a guest in someone's home.

And just in case you don't think that includes game night...

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;924513All I said was they're often more savvy and comfortable about the realities of sex and violence than adults.

And I'm saying that's a giant steaming pile of BS.  They are not "more savvy and comfortable about the realities of sex and violence" because they are 12 years old.  12 year olds with the actual life experience to know anything about the realities of sex and violence are, by definition, abused and traumatized.

QuoteI guess the author and publisher assume that 12 year old girls have the emotional maturity and mental tools to contextualize that sort of thing.

Since the average twelve-year-old doesn't quite get that the trilogy is about the traumatic effect of being a child soldier, I'd say not.

QuoteAnd it seems age doesn't imply anything about roleplaying chops either.

I would be extremely suspicious of any twelve-year-old that could convincingly portray actual mental illness, as opposed to generic fishmalk #17.  (see also, "by definition, abused and traumatized")

If I offered a convention game not suitable for kids, the event description would say "adults only," thereby giving me the freedom to turn away the kids if I wanted. For example, maybe a parent shows up with the kid and says, "It's cool, she's really mature and I'm playing too," in which case I might agree. Also, I don't think "gritty hard scifi" can substitute for "adults only."

Quote from: daniel_ream;924515And I'm saying that's a giant steaming pile of BS.  They are not "more savvy and comfortable about the realities of sex and violence" because they are 12 years old.

"often more savvy and comfortable about the realities of sex and violence than adults".

Funny how removing words can change the meaning of a sentence, huh? But you already knew that.

Quote from: daniel_ream;92451512 year olds with the actual life experience to know anything about the realities of sex and violence are, by definition, abused and traumatized.

So precocious children are abused and traumatized. Got it.

But let's say you're right, as I'm sure in at least one case you must be: Are you saying they should not be allowed to participate in group activities where they can draw on that experience? Are you saying playing these games will only traumatize them further?

Because you're not really in a position to address their trauma when running a game, but you might be in one where you don't have to shun them because of it, which might be nice because they might be in a position where their age related peers cannot relate.

Quote from: daniel_ream;924515Since the average twelve-year-old doesn't quite get that the trilogy is about the traumatic effect of being a child soldier, I'd say not.

Have you asked them? How do you know? Are you 12?

Quote from: daniel_ream;924515I would be extremely suspicious of any twelve-year-old that could convincingly portray actual mental illness, as opposed to generic fishmalk #17.  (see also, "by definition, abused and traumatized")

So any 12 year old who has the empathy to understand and express what mental illness is like is suspicious? What do you suspect them of, living with a friend or relative with mental illness?

Let me break it down for those reading at home.

Blanket policies, for all the good they do, are still the product of fear and ignorance, essentially a form of institutionalized prejudice, and make it more difficult to treat situations on a case by case basis. This applies as much to children as adults, and I think we've all seen how harmful treating people as a category rather than an individual is, especially when that category is not one that individual identifies with.

The attitude above, which takes an entitled stance and quotes out of context to make a moral judgment which appears helpful but is actually harmful to members of the group in question is exactly the kind of destructive hypocrisy that sticks in my craw. So thanks for providing such a concise example daniel_ream. I'm certain I will be referencing it in the future

And before someone spins it, because I know they'll try, I'm not saying it's OK to run the RPG equivalent of a porn directed by Eli Roth with children present. Hell, that's not OK for most adults! But for fuck sake you only have to browse Tumblr to see kids are pretty familiar with a lot of dark stuff, and dismissing them simply because they're 'children' is not a very good way to further the dialogue.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;925022"often more savvy and comfortable about the realities of sex and violence than adults".

Funny how removing words can change the meaning of a sentence, huh? But you already knew that.

Put the qualifiers back in.  You're still wrong.

QuoteSo precocious children are abused and traumatized. Got it.

I'm curious - do you actually believe that prepubescent children are "often more savvy and comfortable with the realities of sex and violence than adults"?  Do you actually believe that?  I'm including all those words, there - "often", "realities", "than adults".  We're not talking about "ooh, some twelve-year-olds got their hands on a porno/Robocop DVD and they're parroting what they saw less self-consciously than the average adult", because that is by definition not the reality of sex and violence.

QuoteBut let's say you're right, as I'm sure in at least one case you must be: Are you saying they should not be allowed to participate in group activities where they can draw on that experience? Are you saying playing these games will only traumatize them further?

If you think abused or traumatized children ought to be drawing on that experience anywhere but in a controlled therapy session, you are dangerously ignorant.

QuoteSo any 12 year old who has the empathy to understand and express what mental illness is like is suspicious? What do you suspect them of, living with a friend or relative with mental illness?

Yes.  If a twelve year old were to start accurately portraying mental illness at a gaming table in a recreational context, I would immediately suspect that they were in close regular contact with someone with severe mental illness, because that's the most likely explanation for how they know what mental illness looks like.

News flash: twelve year olds are not known for empathy or nuanced expression.  Because they're twelve.

QuoteThe attitude above, which takes an entitled stance and quotes out of context to make a moral judgment which appears helpful but is actually harmful to members of the group in question is exactly the kind of destructive hypocrisy that sticks in my craw. So thanks for providing such a concise example daniel_ream. I'm certain I will be referencing it in the future

You're a massive twat.  And if what you've described here is even remotely close to your attitude about children's exposure to sex and violence, you shouldn't be allowed near them.

QuoteBut for fuck sake you only have to browse Tumblr to see kids are pretty familiar with a lot of dark stuff, and dismissing them simply because they're 'children' is not a very good way to further the dialogue.

"Lots of kids have more access to hard core porn and violence than ever before.  And that has no effect on their psychological and emotional development at all."

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;925022Have you asked them? How do you know? Are you 12?

Quote from: daniel_ream;925049You're a massive twat.

I love this place!

Quote from: daniel_ream;925049Put the qualifiers back in.  You're still wrong.

Then why did you remove them?

Quote from: daniel_ream;925049I'm curious - do you actually believe that prepubescent children are "often more savvy and comfortable with the realities of sex and violence than adults"?

• prepubescent children? No. #SawWhatYouDidThere
  
• 12 -14 year olds? Surprisingly often. #BraveNewWorld
  
• 15-18 year olds? almost always.
• 18-24 year olds? It's more surprising when they aren't.

And I don't know if you've noticed, but teen pregnancy (let alone sexual activity) rates have been on a stead decline and are currently at a record low. Would you chalk this up ignorance?

Quote from: daniel_ream;925049If you think abused or traumatized children ought to be drawing on that experience anywhere but in a controlled therapy session, you are dangerously ignorant.

'Ought' to has nothing to do with it. They'll be drawing on it regardless, and chances are you won't even notice when they are.

So are you saying they should never interact with any adults outside of a controlled therapy session?

Quote from: daniel_ream;925049If a twelve year old were to start accurately portraying mental illness at a gaming table in a recreational context, I would immediately suspect that they were in close regular contact with someone with severe mental illness, because that's the most likely explanation for how they know what mental illness looks like.

So what? Why is that important? Would you exclude them because of it?

Quote from: daniel_ream;925049News flash: twelve year olds are not known for empathy or nuanced expression.  Because they're twelve.

No shit.

Apparently neither are you.

Quote from: daniel_ream;925049And if what you've described here is even remotely close to your attitude about children's exposure to sex and violence, you shouldn't be allowed near them.

Yeah, god forbid they feel comfortable enough to share their trauma with me.

Traumatized kids tend not to share their trauma with other kids, let alone their parents. And while I haven't had tweens approach me, I've had numerous teens do so, and they've all been far more centered than the traumatized adults I've dealt with. Regardless, the implication that I approve of that exposure or that I'd actively harm them is bullshit.

But that's besides the point as we're just talking about running an RPG for some kinds at a con. So if you think I'm a threat to these children while surrounded by other adults (usually parents) at a public venue then by all means it is your moral duty to inform the authorities and make a right fool of yourself.

Quote from: daniel_ream;925049Lots of kids have more access to hard core porn and violence than ever before.  And that has no effect on their psychological and emotional development at all.

Further the dialogue, not dismiss the effects.

Of course it affects their psychological and emotional development, which is all the more reason to acknowledge it, which is not the same as approving of it.

I like children at conventions provided they're properly cooked.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;925022Have you asked them? How do you know? Are you 12?

American scientists have proven that every adult once was a 12 year old! It's a scientific fact!

I have to say I played a 40k game in the FLGS recently against a kid that couldn't have been older than 12.  Very polite kid, very nice.  After our game he runs me down in the parking lot to offer me more paints because he's "not allowed to buy anything new until Christmas".  I couldn't take his paints, but I have to say- I was impressed with the young man's manners.

@OT: I would tune down the "mature" stuff. 12 year old girls, come on. As a third player, I would be uncomfortable when the GM goes full "mature" on this group.