Interesting that DOJ is now willing to consider going back to pre-6E.

If they had gone generic with it, I probably would have jumped in on the KS. I've played a lot of HERO but never have been much of a fan of the super genre and as was so frequently pointed out during the 5E/6E debacle, there is nothing wrong with my old 3E, 4E, 5E books.

Quote from: Toadmaster;1046465Interesting that DOJ is now willing to consider going back to pre-6E.

If they had gone generic with it, I probably would have jumped in on the KS. I've played a lot of HERO but never have been much of a fan of the super genre and as was so frequently pointed out during the 5E/6E debacle, there is nothing wrong with my old 3E, 4E, 5E books.

The player into Champions I showed the KS demo to said something like that too. That it was trying to "fix" things that werent broken. Among other things that didnt sit well. Though having not much experience with Champions I've got no idea what to look for.

Quote from: Toadmaster;1046465Interesting that DOJ is now willing to consider going back to pre-6E.

They just went with what Ron approached them with. Don't think there's any real plan (or funds) for DOJ at this point.

Quote from: Toadmaster;1046465Interesting that DOJ is now willing to consider going back to pre-6E.

If they had gone generic with it, I probably would have jumped in on the KS. I've played a lot of HERO but never have been much of a fan of the super genre and as was so frequently pointed out during the 5E/6E debacle, there is nothing wrong with my old 3E, 4E, 5E books.

I read somewhere (might have been on the Hero forums) that they were going to allow people to produce 3rd party material for 4th edition as well as 6th/Champions Complete, so this is likely an extension of that

Quote from: Toadmaster;1046465If they had gone generic with it, I probably would have jumped in on the KS. I've played a lot of HERO but never have been much of a fan of the super genre and as was so frequently pointed out during the 5E/6E debacle, there is nothing wrong with my old 3E, 4E, 5E books.

What is the 5E/6E debacle? I have been playing in a 5E Revised game of Fantasy Hero for the last few months and it seems to be a pretty solid system (though "revised" does suggest a reason...)?

Quote from: Lynn;1046764What is the 5E/6E debacle? I have been playing in a 5E Revised game of Fantasy Hero for the last few months and it seems to be a pretty solid system (though "revised" does suggest a reason...)?

   The 5E revision doesn't do much more than correct errata and fold in a bunch of material that wasn't yet written or they didn't have room for in the original 5E.

   6E was a different story. It made the most radical changes since the 4E consolidation--removing Comeliness, disconnecting Figured Characteristics, and others--and a number of fans weren't happy with the revisions. It was produced in a high-cost prestige format--2 volumes, full-color, lushly illustrated hardcovers that ran a total of $80 at most LGSes. It was also a year later than planned, and most of the initial support was just compiled and revamped 5E material with nothing really to offer established fans. Then 6E went out of print and was too expensive to reprint, so you couldn't really attract new fans. Plus, the hobby was on one of its cycles away from complexity at about the time of 6E's launch--this was when D&D 4E was stumbling and the OSR was waxing, for example.

   Note: I bought 6E on release, but I've been largely disconnected from Hero fandom since then, so my understanding of the situation may be incorrect and is almost certainly incomplete.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1046766The 5E revision doesn't do much more than correct errata and fold in a bunch of material that wasn't yet written or they didn't have room for in the original 5E.

   6E was a different story. It made the most radical changes since the 4E consolidation--removing Comeliness, disconnecting Figured Characteristics, and others--and a number of fans weren't happy with the revisions. It was produced in a high-cost prestige format--2 volumes, full-color, lushly illustrated hardcovers that ran a total of $80 at most LGSes. It was also a year later than planned, and most of the initial support was just compiled and revamped 5E material with nothing really to offer established fans. Then 6E went out of print and was too expensive to reprint, so you couldn't really attract new fans. Plus, the hobby was on one of its cycles away from complexity at about the time of 6E's launch--this was when D&D 4E was stumbling and the OSR was waxing, for example.

   Note: I bought 6E on release, but I've been largely disconnected from Hero fandom since then, so my understanding of the situation may be incorrect and is almost certainly incomplete.

Don't forget the sale of the setting IP to a video game company for Champions Online that pretty much failed. They had free liscence to it, but that was also part of the issue.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1046766TThen 6E went out of print and was too expensive to reprint, so you couldn't really attract new fans. Plus, the hobby was on one of its cycles away from complexity at about the time of 6E's launch--this was when D&D 4E was stumbling and the OSR was waxing, for example.

I got into Hero through Fantasy Hero Complete. Once in, I tracked down Champions Complete, Hero Basic, and the two core books. I have to admit that the core books were pretty daunting when I thumbed through them at the FLGS. The price point isn't what made me put them back onto the shelf several times.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1046766The 5E revision doesn't do much more than correct errata and fold in a bunch of material that wasn't yet written or they didn't have room for in the original 5E.

   6E was a different story. It made the most radical changes since the 4E consolidation--removing Comeliness, disconnecting Figured Characteristics, and others--and a number of fans weren't happy with the revisions. It was produced in a high-cost prestige format--2 volumes, full-color, lushly illustrated hardcovers that ran a total of $80 at most LGSes. It was also a year later than planned, and most of the initial support was just compiled and revamped 5E material with nothing really to offer established fans. Then 6E went out of print and was too expensive to reprint, so you couldn't really attract new fans. Plus, the hobby was on one of its cycles away from complexity at about the time of 6E's launch--this was when D&D 4E was stumbling and the OSR was waxing, for example.

   Note: I bought 6E on release, but I've been largely disconnected from Hero fandom since then, so my understanding of the situation may be incorrect and is almost certainly incomplete.

This is a pretty good summary. 6E may be a fine game but it split the fan base, and then completely ignored the existing fan base. Everything after 6E seemed to be aimed at the brand new HERO gamer or the uber fan boy who would buy anything with the HERO logo.

For those who were playing with 5E (or older) there was little reason to re-buy the largely rule less 6E supplements as they were more or less the same as the 5E versions. The 3E / 4E move was not without bumps, but following the change they put out a lot of material that could appeal to players of both the older and newer edition. There was literally nothing to buy for 5E players and HERO has been on life support since then.

Nowadays I feel the character building part of HERO to be unappealing (too complex and ultimately unbalanced) and that the real gem has been the gameplay. A supers game replacing the points-based system with picks or templates and keeping everything else would be up my alley.

Quote from: DeadUematsu;1046785Nowadays I feel the character building part of HERO to be unappealing (too complex and ultimately unbalanced) and that the real gem has been the gameplay. A supers game replacing the points-based system with picks or templates and keeping everything else would be up my alley.

I missed the Kickstarter, but High Rock Press is/has put together character creation cards for Champions.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2000633882/champions-character-creation-cards

Quote from: DeadUematsu;1046785Nowadays I feel the character building part of HERO to be unappealing (too complex and ultimately unbalanced) and that the real gem has been the gameplay. A supers game replacing the points-based system with picks or templates and keeping everything else would be up my alley.

I enjoy the character generation aspect, but I know that is is a turn off for many.

This was addressed in 3E products by not having so many options in the heroic level games, and 5E by offering prebuilt powers in many of the supplemental books. I've long thought there is a market for a simplified HERO system that shrinks down the pre-game work. In play the game is fairly average in complexity, the reputation for complexity all comes from chargen.

Quote from: Eisenmann;1046792I missed the Kickstarter, but High Rock Press is/has put together character creation cards for Champions.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2000633882/champions-character-creation-cards

Actually backed it but at this point divorcing the character creation from the system would be the better option.

Quote from: Toadmaster;1046794I enjoy the character generation aspect, but I know that is is a turn off for many.

This was addressed in 3E products by not having so many options in the heroic level games, and 5E by offering prebuilt powers in many of the supplemental books. I've long thought there is a market for a simplified HERO system that shrinks down the pre-game work. In play the game is fairly average in complexity, the reputation for complexity all comes from chargen.

The individual games were pretty good back in the day but the shadow of its character generation is now hindering more than helping.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1046766The 5E revision doesn't do much more than correct errata and fold in a bunch of material that wasn't yet written or they didn't have room for in the original 5E.

   6E was a different story. It made the most radical changes since the 4E consolidation--removing Comeliness, disconnecting Figured Characteristics, and others--and a number of fans weren't happy with the revisions. It was produced in a high-cost prestige format--2 volumes, full-color, lushly illustrated hardcovers that ran a total of $80 at most LGSes. It was also a year later than planned, and most of the initial support was just compiled and revamped 5E material with nothing really to offer established fans. Then 6E went out of print and was too expensive to reprint, so you couldn't really attract new fans. Plus, the hobby was on one of its cycles away from complexity at about the time of 6E's launch--this was when D&D 4E was stumbling and the OSR was waxing, for example.

   Note: I bought 6E on release, but I've been largely disconnected from Hero fandom since then, so my understanding of the situation may be incorrect and is almost certainly incomplete.

Accurate summary of 6E. It was a series of missteps, the frustrating part of which is that the game within is pretty darn good and not that different from 5E. Seriously, I've never owned another gamebook with the cardstock-like paper weight of 6E. How much did that decision cost the company in increased production costs and shipping, and the optics of making the books twice as thick as they needed to be?