Yes, that Ron Edwards. The goal of Champions Now (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/herogames/champions-now) is to recreate (or reimagine?) the 1st through 3rd editions of Champions:
Quote from: KickstarterHero Games is proud to present Champions Now, to be created by pioneering game designer Ron Edwards, author of Sorcerer and co-founder of The Forge. Ron will revisit the original three editions of first-generation Champions (1981 to 1988), recovering the power of this foundational era of superhero roleplaying.
As a Hero fan, reading the Kickstarter page--and a glance through the design document, which admittedly is very alpha-- leaves me puzzled and skeptical. Puzzled, becuase a return to Elemental Controls, Figured Characteristics, and Comeliness is a step backwards. Skeptical, because Edwards working on Champions is alot like Glenn Beck aspiring to be the chair of the DNC. Possible, I guess, but it just doesn't sit right. Ron has spilled a lot of ink about narrative games and "collaborative storytelling" but Champions ain't that.
I won't be supporting this one. When I purchased Fantasy Hero Complete (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/145469/Fantasy-Hero-Complete) I admitted to myself I was basically tossing Hero Games $10 to stay afloat. But what I'd like to see going forward is a plan to breathe some new liife into the game-- a Lite version to draw in new players, in sync with a vision towards a 7th Edition.
(EDIT: Mods, not sure if this belongs on the Main Discussion forum or News. I was aiming for the former.)
I don't have a link but I recall reading that Ron Edwards first positive experience of RPGs was related to Champions and the Hero System. The only thing I remember was thinking, "He thought AD&D sucked, and then discovered Champions and that what he liked." Seen that story before and that was basically what happened to me with Champions and Fantasy Hero.
Pioneering?
Isn't Ron Edwards that Forge guy with the crazy theories that have been debunked for the most part? Honest question, I know that name from somewhere, but I don't honestly know where.
Quote from: Aglondir;1041210... because Edwards working on Champions is alot like Glenn Beck aspiring to be the chair of the DNC. ...
That made me LOL. :-D I may have to add that my signature block.
As a died-in-the-wool Polly-Anna Rose-Colored Glasses wearing Optimist... I might have to see where this is going.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1041213Isn't Ron Edwards that Forge guy with the crazy theories that have been debunked for the most part? Honest question, I know that name from somewhere, but I don't honestly know where.
He's that actor that played the lead role in American History X, right? Also, opposite Brad Pitt in Fight Club? Not sure how fans of Fight Club are going to appreciate your stance that he was debunked.
Cautiously optimistic. Ron has shown a real affection for the Hero system, this is a passion project for him. And there is limited downside due to Hero's anemic state anyway. A failure won't really ruin things for the company or the current 5e/6e fan base.
I'm not opposed to a lite version of Hero. In fact, I think focusing on superheroes and going back to Champions 3e as a base and including Unified Power and removing Figured Characteristics would be a step in the right direction. I also think there are easier ways of building characters than point buy.
Quote from: trechriron;1041218He's that actor that played the lead role in American History X, right? Also, opposite Brad Pitt in Fight Club? Not sure how fans of Fight Club are going to appreciate your stance that he was debunked.
Is he? I don't actually know.
Wow. 4k so far. I guess they didn't do any marketing before launch.
Good for Hero games and good for Ron:) Going to watch this one.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1041213Isn't Ron Edwards that Forge guy with the crazy theories that have been debunked for the most part? Honest question, I know that name from somewhere, but I don't honestly know where.
Yep, that Ron Edwards. The one who claimed traditional RPGs cause "brain damage" and other little gems and also pretty much the spearhead for the Forge and Pundits "Swine" who are still around making their crackheaded claims as usual.
There is a free playtest document if anyone wants to check it out. Edwards has always been consistent in his like fir the Champions system. The brain damage nonsense seemed mostly aimed at Vampire. Given what'shappened with RPGNet moderation, maybe he was on to something.
Quote from: ArrozConLeche;1041259There is a free playtest document if anyone wants to check it out. Edwards has always been consistent in his like fir the Champions system. The brain damage nonsense seemed mostly aimed at Vampire. Given what'shappened with RPGNet moderation, maybe he was on to something.
Beast: The Primordial proved Edwards right but not in a way anyone wanted.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1041213Isn't Ron Edwards that Forge guy with the crazy theories that have been debunked for the most part? Honest question, I know that name from somewhere, but I don't honestly know where.
You are thinking of the correct individual.
Quote from: Aglondir;1041210Skeptical, because Edwards working on Champions is alot like Glenn Beck aspiring to be the chair of the DNC. Possible, I guess, but it just doesn't sit right. Ron has spilled a lot of ink about narrative games and "collaborative storytelling" but Champions ain't that.
I would liken it more to... I don't know... Bob Ross being the judge of a waterskiing competition or those random "quotes" on the internet from Carl Sagan or Einstein about the importance of honeybees or that Simpson's episodes where Little Richard presides over a national teacher-of-the-year award. It is more random than antithetical. Champions isn't a story-game, nor is it a regular target of the storygaming community's interest/ire.
Perhaps this is a completely tangential side-project on his part, completely unrelated to Forge theory and the like. In which case, good for him, but that means that his status as a 'pioneering game designer' is pretty much irrelevant, and it scans to me the same as 'unknown game designer Joe Smith to revisit the original three editions of first-generation Champions (1981 to 1988) in new product called '
Champions Now'.
I'm neutral about Edwards.
My impression of the project is to create something akin to a Castles and Crusades; to create a retrogame with some modern quality of life improvements. One big difference is that the retrogame will have official branding.
I'm not nostalgic about Champions. I have thought about picking up the oldest books on occasion out of a collector curiosity. I guess I'm curious about this, but not enough to risk a Kickstarter. I might buy the book at retail.
Whether I'm justified in this view or not, the Kickstarter feels very "pie in the sky" to me. It seems like the idea was dreamed up last week and everything haphazardly thrown together. It feels very much about enthusiasm and very vague on end goal. In short, it seems like thousands of other ill conceived Kickstarters.
Maybe I'm being unfair. That's fine. I suppose I'm just not the audience.
This sounds like one of those things where the possible outcomes easily range from "interesting, new take on an old idea" to "massive train wreck". I applaud the risky shot at the moon, but no way I'm spending any time even looking at it until it is done, and we see some reviews.
I backed it because I'm on something of a Hero nostalgia trip this weather, and it seemed a little too serendipitous to pass up. Fuck knows what I'll end up with, but that's the beauty of the singularity, innit?
Quote from: Omega;1041258Yep, that Ron Edwards. The one who claimed traditional RPGs cause "brain damage" and other little gems and also pretty much the spearhead for the Forge and Pundits "Swine" who are still around making their crackheaded claims as usual.
I see. Hmm, and he's a fan of Champions? Interesting. Well, if he gets his project off the ground and books into stores, then I will pick it up. Good luck.
I'm unimpressed by the playtest document, which reads to me as markedly *less* clear than just reprinting the original game book. Admittedly, this is a playtest document - but that's sort of the point.
This strikes me as a nostalgia product aimed mostly at aging fans of the original system, rather than trying to make a game that new people will play.
From my perspective as a Hero fan, I'd want a game that is streamlined and easier to learn. Whereas Steve Long has primarily followed the usual trend of RPG editions, where each edition is more complex rather than simpler - because it is catering to the hard-core fans. I liked 4th edition mainly because it actually was an effort at simplification. It was more complicated than 1st edition, but it was simpler than the hodge-podge of 3rd edition genre games (Danger International, Fantasy Hero, etc.) - where it condensed down the variations into a universal system.
I'm skimming the playtest doc (http://adeptplay.com/sites/default/files/Champions%20Now%20playtest.pdf). I don't know anything much about the Hero/Champions system, so I don't know if his advice is good or not. That said his output seems very grounded in actual play:
QuoteSetting and concept
There is no setting for this game. That's because the comics that inspired it didn't have one either;
they were set sort of "right now right here," without much reflection or justification. Look around –
and imagine some superheroes there too. And that's all.
There are lots of ways to start, but for playtesting purposes, try it like this. Whoever's organizing this
group for play, have these two things at the ready, no more and no less.
• One solid bit of content about superheroes and/or villains
• One solid bit of genre specification, implying a fictional style and specific types of problems,
including the location of play
Obviously comics can be set anywhere, but the best practice is to use a location that someone in the
group knows really well. That person can be the resource at the table for what is where, and how big
things are, and what the weather is like, even if he or she is not the GM. Anything you use this way
will be better than setting it in a fake New York that no one really knows, or in some Hollywood
conception of a city.
From there, and here I'm speaking to the group, what you'll play is your superhero comic. It doesn't
have to be consistent with or to imitate any other. The rules won't tell you what a "hero" is. There is
no genre pack to conform to. There is no franchise to support. As far as the bunch of you are
concerned, this is the superhero comic you most want to be into right now, and that is all it needs to
be.
That will require communication and trust among you, but contrary to the boilerplate gaming
advice, that doesn't mean tedious negotiations that lock everyone into a complex agreement. Chat it
up, but only a little. Going with those two points above, it's better to find out what everyone makes
of them via their characters rather than to run every step of character creation by committee.
Attendance pays off big for this game, so if that means fewer people, that's OK. Just two or three
players will work fine. It also responds well to expanding the group size later, after a foundation is
laid by a few motivated participants.
Here's an example of those two starting points.
• Super "villains" sometimes aren't, and "heroes" rarely are
• Crime, police, and law drama; set in Chicago
QuoteDeep Dive
I've seen two other things work well for initial group orientation. One is to provide one or two
example comics pages with a distinctive art style, and say, "it looks like this." Another is to establish
a super-naming convention that all such characters use. If you use these, present them as fixed, nonnegotiated
features of the game you are organizing.
What about powers specification? It's almost irresistible to specify something like super-tech across
the cosmos, or martial arts + mental powers, or animal shapeshifters ... and you can do that if you
want. But it's better to start with the two statements described above, let the players independently
come up with concepts, and then treat that as the specification. For a number of complicated
reasons, pre-specifying powers works best for very short, typically single-session play.
Champions is an amoral game system. Build everything to showcase and reinforce whatever you
think is going to be the most fun, and don't get distracted by debating what they would or should
do. Whatever ethical or legal profile you want your character to have, that's what they'll have;
whatever activities they get up to, that's what they'll do.
What that means is, you can't hide behind the game or a genre regarding the character's morality or
likeability. You own that, with whatever it entails for people wanting or not wanting to play with
you. The best practice is to find people whose interests and creative impulses include you.
If you just can't help yourself at setting-building, it's waiting for you. Nothing ever benefited more
from "less is more" than the setup for this game, but "more is definitely more" is waiting around the
corner. Instead of your voluminous epic notes, start with the characters, who are arriving chock-full
of villains, implied history, implied or explicit setting concepts, and supporting cast. All these become
yours to define, enrich, and develop. Work outwards from there and you'll find a richer and more
storied setting than you dreamed possible.
I'm debating this one. I may just use the play test document as supplemental material if I ever decide to go back to Champions. When I did a massive gaming purge after getting engaged, my later Hero system stuff went, but Champions I, II, and III I kept. Skimming the play test document, it looks like there is some interesting commentary that may be useful, and who knows, maybe the rule changes make sense also.
As to Ron and the brain damage thing? The guy goes off the rails. The message he was trying to convey got lost because of the overly inflammatory brain damage comment. He's also tossed insults my way.
I'll likely play the wait and see game...
Frank
Tangentially, this makes me wonder if GW would be willing to let someone do the same for "Oldhammer" (and combine Fantasy and 40K in a single volume) ....
I would be more of a fan if he did remove Figured Characteristics and used Unified Power instead of ECs.
Quote from: jhkim;1041303I'm unimpressed by the playtest document, which reads to me as markedly *less* clear than just reprinting the original game book. Admittedly, this is a playtest document - but that's sort of the point.
This strikes me as a nostalgia product aimed mostly at aging fans of the original system, rather than trying to make a game that new people will play.
From my perspective as a Hero fan, I'd want a game that is streamlined and easier to learn. Whereas Steve Long has primarily followed the usual trend of RPG editions, where each edition is more complex rather than simpler - because it is catering to the hard-core fans. I liked 4th edition mainly because it actually was an effort at simplification. It was more complicated than 1st edition, but it was simpler than the hodge-podge of 3rd edition genre games (Danger International, Fantasy Hero, etc.) - where it condensed down the variations into a universal system.
From what I see, Edwards' writing style is rather slack and hard to follow, and his approach to gaming design makes him the hippy-dippy Plato to Steve Long's empirical Aristotle, but I guess the two guys actually like each other.
I think most people who know Hero would agree that 4th hits a sweet spot in complexity that the later editions never really got.
JG
Quote from: James Gillen;1041375From what I see, Edwards' writing style is rather slack and hard to follow, and his approach to gaming design makes him the hippy-dippy Plato to Steve Long's empirical Aristotle, but I guess the two guys actually like each other.
I think most people who know Hero would agree that 4th hits a sweet spot in complexity that the later editions never really got.
JG
If they had done the 6E drop of the derived characteristic bases in 4E, it would have been just about perfect.
Funny, but I just started playing in a Fantasy Hero / 5th edition game.
That document makes me skeptical as well. I get how he wants to do way with point buying everything under the sun, but it sounds more like he just wants some story in his rpg. You can get that with Icons.
they are keeping the worst offending parts of what makes Champions character generation fall off the cliff of complexity
I don't see the playtest document as an improvement. I see it as a repackaging of old ideas.
Will I buy it? It's not looking likely at this point. I still have all of my old 3rd edition books. So I don't see this as being something I need.
Quote from: Ron EdwardsInstead of your voluminous epic notes, start with the characters, who are arriving chock-full of villains, implied history, implied or explicit setting concepts, and supporting cast. All these become yours to define, enrich, and develop. Work outwards from there and you'll find a richer and more storied setting than you dreamed possible.
I'll give Ron some props here; this is a great insight and one of the strengths of Hero. I wasted too many years writing "plots" for my Hero games, until I finally realized the players were writing the plots for me, with their selection of Hunteds, Watched, Dependent NPCs, etc. So many times I made the mistake of making the players conform to my plot, rather than vice versa.
This assumes that the players are actually creating relevant and rich disadvantages. "Hunted by some villain" isn't going to work.
Quote- Super "villains" sometimes aren't, and "heroes" rarely are
- Crime, police, and law drama; set in Chicago
And this is where they lose me. So a superhero game without superheroes? What is this Gotham?
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1041470And this is where they lose me. So a superhero game without superheroes? What is this Gotham?
That was just an example of the larger point he was making.
QuoteThere are lots of ways to start, but for playtesting purposes, try it like this. Whoever's organizing this
group for play, have these two things at the ready, no more and no less.
• One solid bit of content about superheroes and/or villains
• One solid bit of genre specification, implying a fictional style and specific types of problems,
including the location of play
I still don't know if those are good or bad guidelines since I'm not familiar with the game.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1041470And this is where they lose me. So a superhero game without superheroes? What is this Gotham?
Quote- Super "villains" sometimes aren't, and "heroes" rarely are
- Crime, police, and law drama; set in Chicago
Punisher; Daredevil; Cops; Legal drama in Chicago
Quote from: ChristopherKubasik;1041480Punisher; Daredevil; Cops; Legal drama in Chicago
Only one of which is a superhero in any sense of the word, and he's always been one.
The example Ron uses is dumb but the methodology has promise. Let's try this:
- Heroes follow fashion, villains stick to their themes
- Camp, death-traps, and scientific investigation set in Orlando
I imagine something that's a mashup of Batman '66 and Miami Vice.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1041256Wow. 4k so far. I guess they didn't do any marketing before launch.
Plus the artwork - while not awful - isn't anything to write home about by modern standards.
But yes - I would have guessed they would do better than that ($6.6k as of this writing) due to name recognition alone. At this rate they'll probably hit their $30k minimum, but not with a whole lot extra.
The only Hero system material I am familiar with was the Fifth Edition Sidekick I bought in Ninth Grade on a whim, and I am honestly sort of neutral about Ron Edwards, despite sharing some of Pundit's contempt for the Story Gamer swine (though not to the insane degrees he takes it to) and so I will stay back and be cautiously optimistic on this one.
He certainly has the passion for Hero System at least.
But then again, Martin Ericsson has a passion for World of Darkness and look how shitty V5 is shaping up to be. Putting a guy like Ericsson in charge of White Wolf is like putting Christian Weston Chandler in charge of the Sonic The Hedgehog games.
Both Martin Ericsson and Chris-Chan have the passion for their favorite gaming franchises, but none of the talent.
I just hope for the sake of the Hero fans that Ron Edwards is smarter and more talented than Martin Ericsson.
manwhat
Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;1041489Plus the artwork - while not awful - isn't anything to write home about by modern standards.
Apparently they brought Mark "The Hack" Williams back from the dead to do the art, so that's a plus.
JG
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1041483Only one of which is a superhero in any sense of the word, and he's always been one.
We'll have to agree to disagree about what it meant when DD put a loaded gun against the head of a man lying in a hospital ICU bed.
All older hero system is, is a looser collection of rules with fewer power options. There's a certain appeal of "make do with whatcha got" but unlike my love of 1e AD&D and OD&D, when it comes to Hero, up to 5th ed., more = better, newer = better. It's not like (in the case of D&D) it isn't forward or backwards compatible with little to no changes, anyway, so I fail to see the appeal of this. The closest thing to a "purist" is my dear friend Rob who is an inveterate power-gamer/min-maxer who uses a combination of 3rd and 4th ed Hero System/Champions whenever he can because of some weird obscure advantage 3rd gave to autofire, and something else in 4th.
Every time we play supers, we catch him and "gently remind" him.
Quote from: Aglondir;1041450I'll give Ron some props here; this is a great insight and one of the strengths of Hero. I wasted too many years writing "plots" for my Hero games, until I finally realized the players were writing the plots for me, with their selection of Hunteds, Watched, Dependent NPCs, etc. So many times I made the mistake of making the players conform to my plot, rather than vice versa. This assumes that the players are actually creating relevant and rich disadvantages. "Hunted by some villain" isn't going to work.
I always did that in the games I ran. The newer iterations of Hero always seem to reclarify that a disadvantage that isn't a disadvantage isn't. Also, it isn't a bad idea to review all of the NPC type disads and find commonalities and maybe give players feedback on perhaps having some common ones or taking ones that are already a part of the world, like a certain villain group.
Now that I am playing in a Fantasy Hero game, I have come to appreciate even more how limitations based on genres show how great the game system is, and help to create the feel of the world.
Not sure I really understand the point of this...
It looks like the Kickstarter has added PDF copies of Champions 3rd edition and the supplements Champions II & Champions III to the mix for all backers, to be delivered around July 1st. I was curious to see what Ron did with this anyway, but some PDFs of a game I've never owned don't hurt. He seems pretty excited about it, and that's enough for me to see if there is any old Champions magic I've been missing all these years.
I'm guessing he considers Champions a much less 'incoherent' game than D&D according to his flawed and failed theories. So he'll probably try to make it even more 'coherent', which will make it sell even less.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1043300... which will make it sell even less.
You've got to admit, that's a difficult target to hit--ambitious, even. :D
Ron Edwards. Kickstarter. I might have expected a guy like him to end up panhandling online.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1043332Ron Edwards. Kickstarter. I might have expected a guy like him to end up panhandling online.
Panhandling? At least panhandlers don't promise to give you some non-existent thing when you give THEM money.
Quote from: Redforce;1043565Panhandling? At least panhandlers don't promise to give you some non-existent thing when you give THEM money.
I'm not really getting the whole internet asshole snark thing here. Hasn't Ron run at least two successful Kickstarters in the past where he delivered the books he promised? (As far as I know, yes. And this was back around 2012, so not like a new thing). Is there any reason to think he wouldn't deliver this time, or is it more an opposition to the Kickstarter idea? If so you can emit similar disdain for the likes of Alexander Macris and Kevin Crawford?
Quote from: NeonAce;1043610I'm not really getting the whole internet asshole snark thing here. Hasn't Ron run at least two successful Kickstarters in the past where he delivered the books he promised? (As far as I know, yes. And this was back around 2012, so not like a new thing). Is there any reason to think he wouldn't deliver this time, or is it more an opposition to the Kickstarter idea? If so you can emit similar disdain for the likes of Alexander Macris and Kevin Crawford?
Kevin Crawford is NOT an arrogant self-important ass-hole? Those of us on the #winning side of the RPG Theory Wars are pretty sure The Shit Stain is going to make a version of Champions so far from the original it will not only be unplayable in the traditional sense but likely incoherent from any human sense. Whether or not he
can deliver a pile of steaming shit should hardly factor in to anyone worried about being delivered a pile of steaming shit.
The snark has NOTHING to do with the potential of the shit, just the fact that some people are stupid enough to buy it AND that the pile of steaming shit will soon be available at a con game/game store near you (me) - which should be considered a use of a Biological Weapon.
You are welcome to give The Shit Stain a hug. I'm calling the UN.
Quote from: trechriron;1043646Kevin Crawford is NOT an arrogant self-important ass-hole? Those of us on the #winning side of the RPG Theory Wars are pretty sure The Shit Stain is going to make a version of Champions so far from the original it will not only be unplayable in the traditional sense but likely incoherent from any human sense. Whether or not he can deliver a pile of steaming shit should hardly factor in to anyone worried about being delivered a pile of steaming shit.
The snark has NOTHING to do with the potential of the shit, just the fact that some people are stupid enough to buy it AND that the pile of steaming shit will soon be available at a con game/game store near you (me) - which should be considered a use of a Biological Weapon.
You are welcome to give The Shit Stain a hug. I'm calling the UN.
I had no idea what your snark was about, as I was referencing Redforce and Kyle Aaron's snark, which I actually took to be about what the words in their posts were saying (and your post doesn't really address)? I dunno man, I want everybody's RPG projects to succeed and be cool and all of that, because I like RPGs more than internet grudges and shit.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1043300I'm guessing he considers Champions a much less 'incoherent' game than D&D according to his flawed and failed theories. So he'll probably try to make it even more 'coherent', which will make it sell even less.
I had a player who knows nothing of Ron or the Forge look at it as they are a big fan of Champions. They did not like what they saw and commented that it seemed more focused on storytelling than role playing or game. And that it changed some elements that they felt didnt need changing. The tone of the writing seemed to rub them the wrong way too.
So could be Ron is nudging the game towards Aberrant? Who knows. I do not know Champions and cant really judge whats off kilter or not.
Quote from: NeonAce;1043663I had no idea what your snark was about, as I was referencing Redforce and Kyle Aaron's snark, which I actually took to be about what the words in their posts were saying (and your post doesn't really address)? I dunno man, I want everybody's RPG projects to succeed and be cool and all of that, because I like RPGs more than internet grudges and shit.
That's cool bro. I am about 80% comedian/sarcasm and 20% serious. :-D I'm not interested in Ron Edwards version of Champions, but I wholeheartedly support his freedom to make it and your freedom to buy it and anyone's happiness in playing it. I'm no longer bitter about how Story Games tricked me into almost giving up the hobby and wasting a couple years of my life... Ah shit, I might still be a little bitter. Probably where the snarky hate sauce spewed all over the Father Of Shit Games burst out of... He's not getting of that easy... :-P Still, you should back it if you're excited about it. I'm just poking fun at it, not really emotionally invested.
Quote from: Redforce;1043565Panhandling? At least panhandlers don't promise to give you some non-existent thing when you give THEM money.
Sorry about the confusion. My snark was directed to Kickstarter in general.
Quote from: Redforce;1043765Sorry about the confusion. My snark was directed to Kickstarter in general.
Kickstarter isn't about panhandling. Panhandling is Patreon. Kickstarter is for scammers.
Quote from: Gabriel2;1043767Kickstarter isn't about panhandling. Panhandling is Patreon. Kickstarter is for scammers.
I thought some of them multi-classed? Or was that dual-classed?
Quote from: Omega;1043664So could be Ron is nudging the game towards Aberrant?
Naw, Aberrant has rules.
JG
Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1043327You've got to admit, that's a difficult target to hit--ambitious, even. :D
And yet I'm sure he'll sink to the occasion.
Quote from: trechriron;1043683I'm no longer bitter about how Story Games tricked me into almost giving up the hobby and wasting a couple years of my life...
How so?
Quote from: DeadUematsu;1044327How so?
It was sardonic. I was mocking myself. I'm seriously over it, but I take a pot shot here and there. You know, just to flex my humor muscles. And the pot shot was going to seem bitter, and therefor the opportunity to poke fun at myself.
Whenever someone mentions that so-n-so working on a new version of something is a "fan" of it I know to start setting up the trenches and gun emplacements as anymore its a sign it is going to be bad. "Hey Im a great fan of Thundercats!" :mad:
Quote from: Omega;1044386Whenever someone mentions that so-n-so working on a new version of something is a "fan" of it I know to start setting up the trenches and gun emplacements as anymore its a sign it is going to be bad. "Hey Im a great fan of Thundercats!" :mad:
Yeah, the other sure sign of a completely clustered shitshow is when the author refers to the game as a "love letter" to some other game.
Quote from: Omega;1044386Whenever someone mentions that so-n-so working on a new version of something is a "fan" of it I know to start setting up the trenches and gun emplacements as anymore its a sign it is going to be bad. "Hey Im a great fan of Thundercats!" :mad:
Any time in regards to movies you hear the writer say "this one is for the fans", it means the best part of the film is an insignificant fanservice reference. Like Star Trek: Nemesis.
Quote from: Lynn;1044560Any time in regards to movies you hear the writer say "this one is for the fans", it means the best part of the film is an insignificant fanservice reference. Like Star Trek: Nemesis.
Champions Now: The
Star Trek: Nemesis of RPGs.
Out of curiosity - anyone else surprised at how badly this Kickstarter is doing?
It's very NOT my thing and the artwork is mediocre at best, but I'm rather surprised that the name recognition & nostalgia haven't gotten it well over the $20k goal by now. At this rate it has a good shot of not making it at all.
Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;1045179Out of curiosity - anyone else surprised at how badly this Kickstarter is doing?
It's very NOT my thing and the artwork is mediocre at best, but I'm rather surprised that the name recognition & nostalgia haven't gotten it well over the $20k goal by now. At this rate it has a good shot of not making it at all.
Surprised by how badly it's doing? Oddly enough I think it's doing rather well out of all proportion with how it is presented.
My knowledge of RPG Kickstarters wasn't good, so I did some quick research and looked up quite a few. The impression I came away with was that Champions Now was asking for way more money than most while providing a minimal pitch and not much actual description of end result. For what is being presented, I'm simultaneously amazed the goal is that high as well as the amount that it has gained.
Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;1045179Out of curiosity - anyone else surprised at how badly this Kickstarter is doing?
It's very NOT my thing and the artwork is mediocre at best, but I'm rather surprised that the name recognition & nostalgia haven't gotten it well over the $20k goal by now. At this rate it has a good shot of not making it at all.
I think it's going to be successful. There's two times that pledging will spike, immediately after creating it, as they promote, and the last two days. So watch it in the next few days.
Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;1045179Out of curiosity - anyone else surprised at how badly this Kickstarter is doing?
Not really. I think those that really dug Champions or Hero System found the version they like and are sticking with it.
The artwork looks bad. The concept material so far does not really inspire.
Id rather have an 'anniversary' version of 5th Edition Revised, with nice features you find on Goodman Game's books, like built in bookmark, etc.
Quote from: Charon's Little Helper;1045179Out of curiosity - anyone else surprised at how badly this Kickstarter is doing?
I'm not surprised by the Kickstarter's performance really. Personally I'm on a real Supers RPG kick right now, and listening to Ron's videos is scratching an itch for me along with some old blog posts I've been reading about Supers Sandboxes, etc. I've never played Champions, and I wanna play a game that runs like how he describes! The Kickstarter though, really lacks any kind of slick production values. Mediocre old school art. His videos all start with noisy low-fi generic rock music and him speaking in an echoey room being picked up by the camera mic. The videos are all kinda free-form rambling. It's a pretty amateur-vibed pitch that isn't super-approachable and screaming "Back Me!"
Here's the thing, it's NOT going badly. If it was, it's would be at 1000 right now, rather than 19k. It's only 6k short. It can easily make it up in the usual (and yes, it's almost always a) mad dash funding rush at the last 48 hours.
It's only a funding failure AFTER the Kickstarter closes and it still doesn't have the money. This is when people should be judging its success or failure, until then, people are just hoping for it to fail.
For the record, I have no stake in this. I'm not going to get it.
My criticisms aside, I agree that it's not going badly and still has a very solid chance to fund, it's just not on fire like some projects.
Even if it does fail, they can always try again with a lower funding goal. If it's only 6K shy of funding, I suspect it should meet that goal before it ends. It's happened a few times with other KS I backed; they are not funded, then 2 days before, a bunch of pledges come in, and it's funded a few hours before the campaign ends
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1045307Here's the thing, it's NOT going badly. If it was, it's would be at 1000 right now, rather than 19k. It's only 6k short. It can easily make it up in the usual (and yes, it's almost always a) mad dash funding rush at the last 48 hours.
It's only a funding failure AFTER the Kickstarter closes and it still doesn't have the money. This is when people should be judging its success or failure, until then, people are just hoping for it to fail.
For the record, I have no stake in this. I'm not going to get it.
Agreed. for a KS for a game reboot no one likely wants its doing surprisingly well for something that was far as I can tell not advertised much?
If they had marketed this better, especally to the players that did not like the MMO retconning of so much bleeding into the actual RPG, then it might have done better. Why wasnt this promoted more on BGG? Thats where a chunk of his adherents hang out.
I didn't think it would make it, but:
$21,297 pledged of $20,000 goal
620 backers
39 hours to go
Quote from: Aglondir;1046174I didn't think it would make it, but:
$21,297 pledged of $20,000 goal
620 backers
39 hours to go
What I say? There are two points where the income spikes, immediately after the announcement and during the last 48 hours. I'm happy for Edwards, still won't get it.
Quote from: Omega;1041258Yep, that Ron Edwards. The one who claimed traditional RPGs cause "brain damage" and other little gems and also pretty much the spearhead for the Forge and Pundits "Swine" who are still around making their crackheaded claims as usual.
I'd have been a lot more likely to back it if it weren't being written by a guy who said that because I don't play games in his particular manner, I'm brain damaged...
Interesting that DOJ is now willing to consider going back to pre-6E.
If they had gone generic with it, I probably would have jumped in on the KS. I've played a lot of HERO but never have been much of a fan of the super genre and as was so frequently pointed out during the 5E/6E debacle, there is nothing wrong with my old 3E, 4E, 5E books.
Quote from: Toadmaster;1046465Interesting that DOJ is now willing to consider going back to pre-6E.
If they had gone generic with it, I probably would have jumped in on the KS. I've played a lot of HERO but never have been much of a fan of the super genre and as was so frequently pointed out during the 5E/6E debacle, there is nothing wrong with my old 3E, 4E, 5E books.
The player into Champions I showed the KS demo to said something like that too. That it was trying to "fix" things that werent broken. Among other things that didnt sit well. Though having not much experience with Champions I've got no idea what to look for.
Quote from: Toadmaster;1046465Interesting that DOJ is now willing to consider going back to pre-6E.
They just went with what Ron approached them with. Don't think there's any real plan (or funds) for DOJ at this point.
Quote from: Toadmaster;1046465Interesting that DOJ is now willing to consider going back to pre-6E.
If they had gone generic with it, I probably would have jumped in on the KS. I've played a lot of HERO but never have been much of a fan of the super genre and as was so frequently pointed out during the 5E/6E debacle, there is nothing wrong with my old 3E, 4E, 5E books.
I read somewhere (might have been on the Hero forums) that they were going to allow people to produce 3rd party material for 4th edition as well as 6th/Champions Complete, so this is likely an extension of that
Quote from: Toadmaster;1046465If they had gone generic with it, I probably would have jumped in on the KS. I've played a lot of HERO but never have been much of a fan of the super genre and as was so frequently pointed out during the 5E/6E debacle, there is nothing wrong with my old 3E, 4E, 5E books.
What is the 5E/6E debacle? I have been playing in a 5E Revised game of Fantasy Hero for the last few months and it seems to be a pretty solid system (though "revised" does suggest a reason...)?
Quote from: Lynn;1046764What is the 5E/6E debacle? I have been playing in a 5E Revised game of Fantasy Hero for the last few months and it seems to be a pretty solid system (though "revised" does suggest a reason...)?
The 5E revision doesn't do much more than correct errata and fold in a bunch of material that wasn't yet written or they didn't have room for in the original 5E.
6E was a different story. It made the most radical changes since the 4E consolidation--removing Comeliness, disconnecting Figured Characteristics, and others--and a number of fans weren't happy with the revisions. It was produced in a high-cost prestige format--2 volumes, full-color, lushly illustrated hardcovers that ran a total of $80 at most LGSes. It was also a year later than planned, and most of the initial support was just compiled and revamped 5E material with nothing really to offer established fans. Then 6E went out of print and was too expensive to reprint, so you couldn't really attract new fans. Plus, the hobby was on one of its cycles away from complexity at about the time of 6E's launch--this was when D&D 4E was stumbling and the OSR was waxing, for example.
Note: I bought 6E on release, but I've been largely disconnected from Hero fandom since then, so my understanding of the situation may be incorrect and is almost certainly incomplete.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1046766The 5E revision doesn't do much more than correct errata and fold in a bunch of material that wasn't yet written or they didn't have room for in the original 5E.
6E was a different story. It made the most radical changes since the 4E consolidation--removing Comeliness, disconnecting Figured Characteristics, and others--and a number of fans weren't happy with the revisions. It was produced in a high-cost prestige format--2 volumes, full-color, lushly illustrated hardcovers that ran a total of $80 at most LGSes. It was also a year later than planned, and most of the initial support was just compiled and revamped 5E material with nothing really to offer established fans. Then 6E went out of print and was too expensive to reprint, so you couldn't really attract new fans. Plus, the hobby was on one of its cycles away from complexity at about the time of 6E's launch--this was when D&D 4E was stumbling and the OSR was waxing, for example.
Note: I bought 6E on release, but I've been largely disconnected from Hero fandom since then, so my understanding of the situation may be incorrect and is almost certainly incomplete.
Don't forget the sale of the setting IP to a video game company for Champions Online that pretty much failed. They had free liscence to it, but that was also part of the issue.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1046766TThen 6E went out of print and was too expensive to reprint, so you couldn't really attract new fans. Plus, the hobby was on one of its cycles away from complexity at about the time of 6E's launch--this was when D&D 4E was stumbling and the OSR was waxing, for example.
I got into Hero through Fantasy Hero Complete. Once in, I tracked down Champions Complete, Hero Basic, and the two core books. I have to admit that the core books were pretty daunting when I thumbed through them at the FLGS. The price point isn't what made me put them back onto the shelf several times.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1046766The 5E revision doesn't do much more than correct errata and fold in a bunch of material that wasn't yet written or they didn't have room for in the original 5E.
6E was a different story. It made the most radical changes since the 4E consolidation--removing Comeliness, disconnecting Figured Characteristics, and others--and a number of fans weren't happy with the revisions. It was produced in a high-cost prestige format--2 volumes, full-color, lushly illustrated hardcovers that ran a total of $80 at most LGSes. It was also a year later than planned, and most of the initial support was just compiled and revamped 5E material with nothing really to offer established fans. Then 6E went out of print and was too expensive to reprint, so you couldn't really attract new fans. Plus, the hobby was on one of its cycles away from complexity at about the time of 6E's launch--this was when D&D 4E was stumbling and the OSR was waxing, for example.
Note: I bought 6E on release, but I've been largely disconnected from Hero fandom since then, so my understanding of the situation may be incorrect and is almost certainly incomplete.
This is a pretty good summary. 6E may be a fine game but it split the fan base, and then completely ignored the existing fan base. Everything after 6E seemed to be aimed at the brand new HERO gamer or the uber fan boy who would buy anything with the HERO logo.
For those who were playing with 5E (or older) there was little reason to re-buy the largely rule less 6E supplements as they were more or less the same as the 5E versions. The 3E / 4E move was not without bumps, but following the change they put out a lot of material that could appeal to players of both the older and newer edition. There was literally nothing to buy for 5E players and HERO has been on life support since then.
Nowadays I feel the character building part of HERO to be unappealing (too complex and ultimately unbalanced) and that the real gem has been the gameplay. A supers game replacing the points-based system with picks or templates and keeping everything else would be up my alley.
Quote from: DeadUematsu;1046785Nowadays I feel the character building part of HERO to be unappealing (too complex and ultimately unbalanced) and that the real gem has been the gameplay. A supers game replacing the points-based system with picks or templates and keeping everything else would be up my alley.
I missed the Kickstarter, but High Rock Press is/has put together character creation cards for Champions.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2000633882/champions-character-creation-cards
Quote from: DeadUematsu;1046785Nowadays I feel the character building part of HERO to be unappealing (too complex and ultimately unbalanced) and that the real gem has been the gameplay. A supers game replacing the points-based system with picks or templates and keeping everything else would be up my alley.
I enjoy the character generation aspect, but I know that is is a turn off for many.
This was addressed in 3E products by not having so many options in the heroic level games, and 5E by offering prebuilt powers in many of the supplemental books. I've long thought there is a market for a simplified HERO system that shrinks down the pre-game work. In play the game is fairly average in complexity, the reputation for complexity all comes from chargen.
Quote from: Eisenmann;1046792I missed the Kickstarter, but High Rock Press is/has put together character creation cards for Champions.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2000633882/champions-character-creation-cards
Actually backed it but at this point divorcing the character creation from the system would be the better option.
Quote from: Toadmaster;1046794I enjoy the character generation aspect, but I know that is is a turn off for many.
This was addressed in 3E products by not having so many options in the heroic level games, and 5E by offering prebuilt powers in many of the supplemental books. I've long thought there is a market for a simplified HERO system that shrinks down the pre-game work. In play the game is fairly average in complexity, the reputation for complexity all comes from chargen.
The individual games were pretty good back in the day but the shadow of its character generation is now hindering more than helping.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1046766The 5E revision doesn't do much more than correct errata and fold in a bunch of material that wasn't yet written or they didn't have room for in the original 5E.
6E was a different story. It made the most radical changes since the 4E consolidation--removing Comeliness, disconnecting Figured Characteristics, and others--and a number of fans weren't happy with the revisions. It was produced in a high-cost prestige format--2 volumes, full-color, lushly illustrated hardcovers that ran a total of $80 at most LGSes. It was also a year later than planned, and most of the initial support was just compiled and revamped 5E material with nothing really to offer established fans. Then 6E went out of print and was too expensive to reprint, so you couldn't really attract new fans. Plus, the hobby was on one of its cycles away from complexity at about the time of 6E's launch--this was when D&D 4E was stumbling and the OSR was waxing, for example.
Note: I bought 6E on release, but I've been largely disconnected from Hero fandom since then, so my understanding of the situation may be incorrect and is almost certainly incomplete.
Accurate summary of 6E. It was a series of missteps, the frustrating part of which is that the game within is pretty darn good and not that different from 5E. Seriously, I've never owned another gamebook with the cardstock-like paper weight of 6E. How much did that decision cost the company in increased production costs and shipping, and the optics of making the books twice as thick as they needed to be?
Personally I liked the separation of the secondary characteristics as it simplifies the accounting but I can understand why a guy who's converted every character in the DC and Marvel universes for previous editions might throw the book at the wall.
The big problem with HERO's character creation is that power modifiers and frameworks are essential to building effective characters. Divorced from that it's a dead simple points buy game.
Quote from: David Johansen;1046807Personally I liked the separation of the secondary characteristics as it simplifies the accounting but I can understand why a guy who's converted every character in the DC and Marvel universes for previous editions might throw the book at the wall.
The big problem with HERO's character creation is that power modifiers and frameworks are essential to building effective characters. Divorced from that it's a dead simple points buy game.
Pretty much. Especially frameworks throw a spanner in the works for new players. I've seen them trying to work it out from the condensed summary found in Champions Complete, and then implement. Not easy...
The real problem with 5E/6E is that it completely misread the market. 5E tinkered around the edges, and changed things just enough to invalidate a lot of 4E material, but didn't really "fix" anything (whatever one might think needed fixing or not). And it came out at a time when fans might have entertained some reasonable cleanup, such as the removal of figured characteristics. Then after a bunch of people invested in 5E and got settled in with the new edition, then they decided to make some serious changes.
In neither 5E nor 6E, was there a host of new customers anxiously waiting for, "the same massive stuff, only more." It is a fairly simple game to play, but relatively difficult and time consuming to setup a world and characters. Skip 5E, go straight to 6E, and provide some solid support for a simplified version with a good campaign, it might have worked.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1046820The real problem with 5E/6E is that it completely misread the market. 5E tinkered around the edges, and changed things just enough to invalidate a lot of 4E material, but didn't really "fix" anything (whatever one might think needed fixing or not). And it came out at a time when fans might have entertained some reasonable cleanup, such as the removal of figured characteristics. Then after a bunch of people invested in 5E and got settled in with the new edition, then they decided to make some serious changes.
In neither 5E nor 6E, was there a host of new customers anxiously waiting for, "the same massive stuff, only more." It is a fairly simple game to play, but relatively difficult and time consuming to setup a world and characters. Skip 5E, go straight to 6E, and provide some solid support for a simplified version with a good campaign, it might have worked.
Yep, in 7 years (2001-2008) DoJ turned out around 100 HERO books which is close to the number of books HERO and ICE put out for 1E-4E.
6E came out in 2009 and over 3 years did around 30 books, roughly 1/2 just slightly modified reprints of 5E genre books and supplements. They have produced one new book since 2012. Licensed product has accounted for all but one Hero book since 2012. Fantasy Hero Complete came out in 2015 and is the last book to date published by DoJ.
They literally have not provided books that 1E-5E players would have any reason to buy unless they didn't buy them during the 5E era.
Had 5E made the 6E changes in 2001 instead of 2009 they may have still ruffled feathers, but players of the older editions likely still would have bought the supplements. There were people who disliked the relatively small changes done for 5E, but many did hang around the HERO forums and bought 5E product.
https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?36959-Hero-System-6th-Edition-(Vol-2-Combat-and-Adventuring)
QuoteBut as with the D&D corebooks, while I have to give these titles high marks on both style and substance, that doesn't necessarily mean I endorse them wholeheartedly.
It again comes down to my general feeling that the new edition of HERO System would trip up veteran players while not necessarily being easier for non-HERO players to learn. In particular I think that not only do some things cost more than they should but that some costs are added that didn't need to be there before. This is why the point quota for starting characters has been increased. This is basically point inflation - you're paying more to get the same value than what you had. Or sometimes less.
Why am I so hung up on the matter of point inflation? Because, generally, the more points a character costs, the more complex it is to design. In some cases that's a good thing, which is why modern HERO has a lot more Skills and options than write-ups in the old Champions books. But in order to get those options that are now spelled out in rules, you have to pay points, and spend time and thought on just where those points should go, and each recent edition of the game has required you to build a PC on more points to get what he "should" have for a starting character (mainly on the Superheroic level). However given that as many Powers were reduced in cost as increased, and Skill Levels increased somewhat but not substantially, and the cost of former Primary Characteristics were reduced to account for their not being a base to other Characteristics anymore, it's clear that the prime culprit in the "point inflation" is the need to buy one's base CV stats in addition
to getting Combat Skill Levels.
Again, it is similar to what was done in Mutants & Masterminds' 2nd Edition, but there it was done on a relatively cheap and simple scale. I might be less bugged about the new costs if they hadn't decided that "Figured" Characteristics included CV and Mental CV and even then I wouldn't have minded so much if they didn't split them further into Offensive and Defensive values so they have to be bought twice. Especially considering that OMCV, unlike OCV, is useless to anybody who isn't a mentalist- which means for all effective purposes that stat doesn't exist for most characters, defeating the purpose of the differentiation. Of course that's just my "grognard" perspective. But from the standpoint of the new player, who probably came off an Attribute+Skill system like White Wolf's, they won't automatically assume that Characteristics would have no effect on combat values, and having to buy those values from a separate average is computation that they didn't have to do before.
In other words, there are changes made that didn't merely complicate the game but complicated it unnecessarily. And if you're trying to keep HERO veterans while trying to recruit new players, the last thing you want to do is make the game unnecessarily complicated. Which is why I'd said in the 6E1 review that the new edition doesn't require you to learn the game all over again, but it doesn't streamline things for newbies. It also throws in enough significant changes that when I tried explaining them to my gaming group, they were fairly unanimous in not wanting to try 6E, which means I won't get to test-run it, which is why I said I wouldn't be getting the hardcopy books.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1046766The 5E revision doesn't do much more than correct errata and fold in a bunch of material that wasn't yet written or they didn't have room for in the original 5E.
6E was a different story. It made the most radical changes since the 4E consolidation--removing Comeliness, disconnecting Figured Characteristics, and others--and a number of fans weren't happy with the revisions. It was produced in a high-cost prestige format--2 volumes, full-color, lushly illustrated hardcovers that ran a total of $80 at most LGSes.
Thanks, that really is a huge difference. So much of what made Hero / Champions was figuring out combinations of stats to hit important points, like that next rank of Speed.
I have to say I am enjoying Fantasy Hero / 5th Edition Revised though. It really doesn't require that much page flipping as compared to (seemingly) more simple games like DCCRPG.
Quote from: Aglondir;1046174I didn't think it would make it, but:
$21,297 pledged of $20,000 goal
620 backers
39 hours to go
That's tremendously low, anyways, for such a well-known game line.
Compare that to Alex Macris' latest KS, what with Macris not being without his own controversy, where for some ACKS sourcebook he's funded at $16K (of a 15K goal) with 9 days to go. And that's not for a main book, it's for a supplement for a game that is pretty old at this point.
Edwards & Hero System? Tuna & Ragu? "Reply Hazy" But if he does something with it, good luck to him.
I'd be surprised if there are many HS groups left, though. Seems like more of a nostalgia drive.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1041213Isn't Ron Edwards that Forge guy with the crazy theories that have been debunked for the most part? Honest question, I know that name from somewhere, but I don't honestly know where.
Sort of, yes, but you put it in a very strong way that seems aggressive.
Ron Edwards is the guy who created "The Forge" message boards to encourage independent RPG authors in their creations. He has written quite a few RPG systems, the most famous being Sorcerer, but also including Trollbabe, Elfs, and others. His GNS (Gamist Narrative Simulationist) theories were an attempt to make RPG theory more academic, but what it seems to have done is mostly cause a rift in the RPG community whereby some folks think he's a genius and others think he's a nut. Whether his theories were debunked or not probably depends upon who you talk to, as he was mostly trying to discuss styles of play and I'm not sure you debunk that.
Anyway, he is very polarizing in the RPG community and Champions isn't his usual style.
-----------------
EDIT: Sorry -- didn't realize this was a 10-page thread. This has probably been discussed 8-9 pages ago. :o
A friend of mine gave me a copy of Hero 6th edition. 466 pages just for character creation?
Um, yeah, I'd rather do GURPS.
Quote from: finarvyn;1080391Sort of, yes, but you put it in a very strong way that seems aggressive.
Ron Edwards is the guy who created "The Forge" message boards to encourage independent RPG authors in their creations. He has written quite a few RPG systems, the most famous being Sorcerer, but also including Trollbabe, Elfs, and others. His GNS (Gamist Narrative Simulationist) theories were an attempt to make RPG theory more academic, but what it seems to have done is mostly cause a rift in the RPG community whereby some folks think he's a genius and others think he's a nut. Whether his theories were debunked or not probably depends upon who you talk to, as he was mostly trying to discuss styles of play and I'm not sure you debunk that.
Anyway, he is very polarizing in the RPG community and Champions isn't his usual style.
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EDIT: Sorry -- didn't realize this was a 10-page thread. This has probably been discussed 8-9 pages ago. :o
I don't recall having been answered. I say 'debunked' because he believed that his theory posits that the three styles are distinct and separate, except that in all the discussions pro and con have proven that if these distinctions exist they work WITH each other to varying degrees and enough people have claimed there's another 'style' called Immersive also exists.
Also theories exist for two reasons, to be validated or debunked by experimentation, and GNS has. Otherwise it's just an opinion or a manifesto until it's proven or otherwise.
Quote from: finarvyn;1080391Sort of, yes, but you put it in a very strong way that seems aggressive.
Ron Edwards is the guy who created "The Forge" message boards to encourage independent RPG authors in their creations. He has written quite a few RPG systems, the most famous being Sorcerer, but also including Trollbabe, Elfs, and others. His GNS (Gamist Narrative Simulationist) theories were an attempt to make RPG theory more academic, but what it seems to have done is mostly cause a rift in the RPG community whereby some folks think he's a genius and others think he's a nut. Whether his theories were debunked or not probably depends upon who you talk to, as he was mostly trying to discuss styles of play and I'm not sure you debunk that.
Anyway, he is very polarizing in the RPG community and Champions isn't his usual style.
Well, apparently Steve Long likes him.
JG
So did it ever ship or is it still pending?
Quote from: James Gillen;1080411Well, apparently Steve Long likes him.
JG
May just be a case of opposites attract. HS died for me after 4E. Going through 5E the local joke asked if it was written by a lawyer.
When we found out it was, it made a lot of sense. But Edwards?
Seems like that's like hiring a gender studies major working for Cosmo to take over Hustler.
Quote from: Omega;1080413So did it ever ship or is it still pending?
It states it'll be released in June. I'm curious about it, still.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;1080418It states it'll be released in June. I'm curious about it, still.
Recent comment from them states that they're a bit behind schedule.
Quote from: kythri;1080421Recent comment from them states that they're a bit behind schedule.
/Insert Iago The Parrot's 'I'm not surprised' quote
Quote from: Jame Rowe;1080399A friend of mine gave me a copy of Hero 6th edition. 466 pages just for character creation?
Um, yeah, I'd rather do GURPS.
Compare that to 4th edition where the whole game fit into 220 pages...
Quote from: Toadmaster;1080463Compare that to 4th edition where the whole game fit into 220 pages...
And I found both (HERO & GURPS) to be about the same amount of work - worth the effort.
Quote from: Eisenmann;1080474And I found both (HERO & GURPS) to be about the same amount of work - worth the effort.
Pre-6th HERO is one of my favorite games, GURPS 3rd another so I agree with you. I just find it shocking that making the game "easier" exploded the page count from 220 pages in 4th to 800-900 pages in 6th.
Quote from: Toadmaster;1080493Pre-6th HERO is one of my favorite games, GURPS 3rd another so I agree with you. I just find it shocking that making the game "easier" exploded the page count from 220 pages in 4th to 800-900 pages in 6th.
Most of the page count is due to examples and art-- Champions Complete is only 240 pages. 6E is my favorite version of Hero yet, mostly because they got rid of figured characteristics and elemental controls.
Quote from: Toadmaster;1080493Pre-6th HERO is one of my favorite games, GURPS 3rd another so I agree with you. I just find it shocking that making the game "easier" exploded the page count from 220 pages in 4th to 800-900 pages in 6th.
It's frickin' daunting, that's for sure.
Thank goodness for Champions and Fantasy Hero complete, because coming into the game cold, the big books were just too much. Now I use the big books as reference, like encyclopedia volumes. Glad to have 'em, but yeah. What really helped get me oriented were fan made things like Chris Goodwin's How to Play HERO (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ENrHV_IwGainzAofa1TuGuEUpGR5AbSZ4DBIi1YSuqU/edit) and the Fantasy Hero Primer (https://www.herogames.com/forums/files/file/367-fantasy-hero-primer/).