Idle noodling around thoughts in my brain pan. This is gonna ramble.
How to make rpg gameplay challenging.
I was playing some 4th edition a while ago, and when I rolled a 20 on my attack roll, another player congratulated me. It was idle table banter, but it got me thinking. Rolling to hit is chance. I can modify my chances with abilities, character options, and environment, but in the end, rolling a 20 is a simple 1 in 20 die roll. There's nothing I can do to influence that specific result.
So, there are ways to make combat more interactive. To give monsters specific advantages and weaknesses (Vampires and holy water, Trolls and acid, etc.) and that's a good start. Using the environment to influence a combat. One thing I did like about 4th is that it got me thinking about environment as an interactive thing more. Areas where creatures can take damage or be put at a disadvantage, if pushed into that area.
But what about non-combat challenges? Skill rolls usually boil down to a "pass/fail" state. Roll a sucess or the game stops in mid-track! Blech. Better to have a sucess mean the encounter is easier, and a fail means the encounter is harder. 4th tried to address this by making skill challenges involve more tests. Best 2 out or 3, and that's a good idea too. Especially if the players can influence the results by making good choices in how to use their skills. Making a lore check easier by actually going out and gathering books and scrolls and hearing tales.
Tomb of Horrors is often brought up as "challenging", but I think it's a bit too arbitrary for me to consider it challenging. I think challenge is when the players fail, and don't blame the GM or scenario, but think "We didn't have the chops to accomplish this thing." Not "Oh, the puzzle was rigged. There's no way we could have known that this gateway was safe, but that gateway was Instant Death."
So, seeking opinions. How can a scenario be challenging, but "fair"?
Quote from: Ratman_tf;850178(Vampires and holy water, Trolls and acid, etc.)
Wouldn't that be...
everything and acid?
I ran a party of 1st level ADnD where they decided to attack 100 orcs in a big cavern. They planned for an hour or two, then put their convoluted plan into action.
Is this what you mean by challenging? Somewhat baffled what you mean? Taking on odds above their power level will always be an option, and it is always challenging.
I think he's looking for a way to reduce randomness and replace it with situational modifier stacking in order to create a game that is more based on player skill rather than luck.
Quote from: David Johansen;850269I think he's looking for a way to reduce randomness and replace it with situational modifier stacking in order to create a game that is more based on player skill rather than luck.
Isn't that the entire point of the players spending time to come up with a plan? The 1st level PCs didn't defeat 100 orcs in a big cave by rolling initiative and attack rolls.
Quote from: TristramEvans;850245Wouldn't that be...everything and acid?
Well yeah, I mean getting around it's regeneration advantage with acid or fire.
Quote from: David Johansen;850269I think he's looking for a way to reduce randomness and replace it with situational modifier stacking in order to create a game that is more based on player skill rather than luck.
Stacking bonuses would be a direct way to influence a specific die roll, but I'm also thinking tactics like the party is outnumbered, but fight at a doorway so only one or two foes have to be dealt with at a time.
And applying that kind of thought generally for things like non-combat encounters.
And then my thoughts get really general, in trying to figure out what makes an adventure challenging to encourage players to think up those kinds of tactics.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;850330Stacking bonuses would be a direct way to influence a specific die roll, but I'm also thinking tactics like the party is outnumbered, but fight at a doorway so only one or two foes have to be dealt with at a time.
And applying that kind of thought generally for things like non-combat encounters.
And then my thoughts get really general, in trying to figure out what makes an adventure challenging to encourage players to think up those kinds of tactics.
Well the first decision you need to make is what do you mean by challenging?
If you mean challenging for the character its a simple measure of difficulty class.
If you mean challenging for the player, then forget about die roll modifiers and create problems the players need to solve. If you simply make doing X or Y add some modifier to a die roll, then some players may try them to get a bonus, and others may simply rely on luck and make the difficult roll anyway. Either way, its still the dice that overcome the challenge, not the player.
A system in which the player cannot simply point to a skill or ability and say " I want to use X" is essential. if your system features such skills then you need to change systems. Its pointless to have characters with these lists of skills if you then create situations where they should be useful but aren't.
Once you are playing such a system, you simply create situations for the players to solve. Don't think in terms of game mechanics, think about what actual responses and actions would be helpful and useful. The players ( having no buttons to press in response) will attempt various solutions, the results of which will be provided by you based on what you know about the situation that they don't. If their actions wildly ineffective then they will fail. If their actions are clever and applicable, their solution may work as intended-or even
better than they expected. If their solution has a chance of success but is uncertain, assign a probability based on their plan vs your knowledge and let the dice decide.
It really is that simple.
Teach people wargames.
You can, rarely, win a wargame by baning your army blindly into the other guy's. However, odds are about 99 to 1 that you will get handed your ass in a bucket.
You will very quickly learn situational awareness, use of terrain, timing of various parts of your force, etc., and you will then naturally apply these to RPGs.
This is why OD&D fighters don't have, or need, "cool combat maneuvers." Being a "good" fighter consists of the things I mentioned above, not fancy crap. The d20 roll serves the same purpose as the d6 roll in CHAINMAIL; making damage per turn variable instead of deterministic.
If "all the fighter does is just roll to hit turn after turn," the fighter's player is an imbecile.
If I understood the OP right then the GURPS combat system is perfect for them.
I'm happy to know that Groanan has an unlimited supply of perfectly trusting and submissive players to tongue his pee hole. The rest of us need more structure.
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;850339Teach people wargames.
Not to derail the thread, but which ones are worth teaching/learning?
Quote from: David Johansen;850361If I understood the OP right then the GURPS combat system is perfect for them.
I'm happy to know that Groanan has an unlimited supply of perfectly trusting and submissive players to tongue his pee hole. The rest of us need more structure.
Not my fault you're stupid. And speaking of your invitation to tongue my pee hole...
Quote from: David Johansen;850361If I understood the OP right then the GURPS combat system is perfect for them.
I'm happy to know that Groanan has an unlimited supply of perfectly trusting and submissive players to tongue his pee hole. The rest of us need more structure.
I enjoy playing GURPS, and I enjoy playing OD&D. Sadly I don't get much opportunity to play either one unless I'm running the game.
Both games provide different kinds of challenges. One is not superior or inferior to the other. If you find yourself actually "needing" more structure to pretend to be an elf, then its the first sign that you are playing with the wrong people.
Quote from: RunningLaser;850363Not to derail the thread, but which ones are worth teaching/learning?
Advanced Squad Leader (or ASL for short).
Quote from: Pyromancer;850373Advanced Squad Leader (or ASL for short).
I would not recommended ASL for a novice' s first wargame.
More later.
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;850374I would not recommended ASL for a novice' s first wargame.
I started wargaming two years ago with ASL (the ASL starter kit, actually, but I soon upgraded to the full rules). There might be other good wargames out there, but in my eyes, there is no reason NOT to start with ASL if you seriously want to learn wargames.
You need a teacher, though.
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;850339Teach people wargames.
You can, rarely, win a wargame by baning your army blindly into the other guy's. However, odds are about 99 to 1 that you will get handed your ass in a bucket.
You will very quickly learn situational awareness, use of terrain, timing of various parts of your force, etc., and you will then naturally apply these to RPGs.
Panzerblitz is the simplest game I can think of that teaches situational awaress, use of terrain, timing of force and where you will actually finish scenarios in a single sitting. ASL? yeah it probably has those too but you won't be playing very many games of that in a finite amount of time. Ogre/GEV would probably work too.
Quote from: Pyromancer;850377I started wargaming two years ago with ASL (the ASL starter kit, actually, but I soon upgraded to the full rules). There might be other good wargames out there, but in my eyes, there is no reason NOT to start with ASL if you seriously want to learn wargames.
You need a teacher, though.
I would say for a complete newbie, get the original Squad Leader and teach them simple small scenarios like the tractor works. After playing with that for a bit, they might want more then go for ASL slowly in chunks.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;850330Stacking bonuses would be a direct way to influence a specific die roll, but I'm also thinking tactics like the party is outnumbered, but fight at a doorway so only one or two foes have to be dealt with at a time.
And applying that kind of thought generally for things like non-combat encounters.
And then my thoughts get really general, in trying to figure out what makes an adventure challenging to encourage players to think up those kinds of tactics.
I would suggest to stop reading fiction and read nonfiction as your source for inspiration. Fiction teaches problem solving as a narrative arc regardless of whether it makes any damn sense. Nonfiction teaches problem solving through strategy and tactics.
Quote from: RunningLaser;850363Not to derail the thread, but which ones are worth teaching/learning?
Avalon Hill classics. Most of the simple strategic-scale ones use roughly the same system, so Blitzkrieg, Battle of the Bulge, The Russian Front, D-Day, etc are not much more different from each other than the TSR D&D family. Pick any of them. Not the naval ones (don't start by trying to learn Flat Top!) and avoid The Longest Day, which you'll only be able to play if you go on holiday to an isolated cabin in the woods with your opponent for at least a fortnight. It'll take you the first day just to set up.
Then move on to the more complex tactical-scale stuff starting with Panzerblitz and Panzer Leader, which are
really good games, and if you love them, start thinking about the possibility of collecting ASL. You'll need another player, another mortgage, and many years of your life.
Alternatively there's a computer game loosely inspired by ASL called Steel Panthers which you can download for free. It comes in various flavours. The right one to begin with is Steel Panthers: World at War (get the fan-modded "enhanced final release" version). Register an account on
this forum (http://spwaw.com/phpBB2/index.php) and follow the instructions to download and install the game.
If you love SP:WAW you'll move on to other flavours like SP:WW2 and SP:MBT.
Quote from: Old One Eye;850385I would suggest to stop reading fiction and read nonfiction as your source for inspiration. Fiction teaches problem solving as a narrative arc regardless of whether it makes any damn sense. Nonfiction teaches problem solving through strategy and tactics.
Any specific reccomendations? Fiction and non-fiction is really vague. (Says the guy who started a pretty vague thread in the first place.)
Quote from: P&P;850389Avalon Hill classics. Most of the simple strategic-scale ones use roughly the same system, so Blitzkrieg, Battle of the Bulge, The Russian Front, D-Day, etc are not much more different from each other than the TSR D&D family. Pick any of them. .
I like East Front by Columbia Games for a really great division pusher.
Quote from: P&P;850389Alternatively there's a computer game loosely inspired by ASL called Steel Panthers which you can download for free. It comes in various flavours. The right one to begin with is Steel Panthers: World at War (get the fan-modded "enhanced final release" version). Register an account on this forum (http://spwaw.com/phpBB2/index.php) and follow the instructions to download and install the game.
Along those same lines John Tiller's Campaign series is essentially panzerblitz/ panzer leader in computer format.
Quote from: Ratman_tf;850402Any specific reccomendations? Fiction and non-fiction is really vague. (Says the guy who started a pretty vague thread in the first place.)
0 through 999 in the Dewey Decimal System. It is not any one thing, but rather, a lifetime of awareness of what reality actually consists.
Simple example of a very common thing in DnD: whether magic items may be purchased. Following fictional narrative, many DMs do not allow it. Following Wealth of Nations, a DM will allow it in some form. The former requires players to mold their behavior to the DM's preferred narrative. The latter allows players to lean on their real world knowledge of acquiring proper gear for a real world expedition (granting that magic items are the stand in for modern technology).
There's some really good wargame suggestions here.
I also suggest trying some miniatures wargames. Now, you do NOT need miniatures to play. A 1 x 2" rectangle of cardstock labeled "Sherman" and with an arrow pointing along the long axis is now a Sherman tank. A penny is a half squad of infantry, a nickel is a light machine gun, a dime is a heavy machine gun, a quarter is a mortar.
Books and blankets and stuff can be terrain, or put brown paper on the table and draw terrain.
In the medieval period you can use 1 x 1 squares for foot and 1 x 2 rectangles for horse. An arrow indicates front, and label them.
I recommend miniatures because you can get a wider variety of scenarios. The straight "meeting engagement" between two roughly equal size forces is the single least interesting form of battle. A small force trying to hold a choke point against a larger force will teach you a lot about the importance of terrain, sight lines, movement rates, etc. It's a little easier for new players to get a "gut feel" for what's happening with miniatures, in my experience.
For rules for the medieval period, Terence Wise's book "Medieval Warfare" is not only a nice intro to the 14th and 15th century, it includes a simple but eminently workable rule set. Or, you can download the old Heritage Models' "God's Acre" rules here free:
http://www.wargames.co.uk/Rules/GodsAcre.htm
I'd recommend "CHAINMAIL," but they're so fucking expensive nowadays I can't in good conscience.
For WW2, the old WRG ww2 rules are available, again for FREE (See how your old Uncle Gronan takes care of you?)
http://www.wrg.me.uk/WRG.net/History/OLDWRG/WWII.pdf
They again are eminently playable and reasonably good for the period without being nightmarishly complex.
TRACTICS and FAST RULES, like CHAINMAIL, have been priced into the "collector's market."
If you can find the old RAFM "Universal Soldier" rules of the late 70s they're pretty good too. They are VERY based on CHAINMAIL 1:20, but they added the idea of seperate attack and defense class; so 13th Century knights are Attack A, Defense B, representing their heavy mail armor, while late 14th and 15th century knights in full plate are Attack A Defense A.
Quote from: Old One Eye;8504730 through 999 in the Dewey Decimal System. It is not any one thing, but rather, a lifetime of awareness of what reality actually consists.
Simple example of a very common thing in DnD: whether magic items may be purchased. Following fictional narrative, many DMs do not allow it. Following Wealth of Nations, a DM will allow it in some form. The former requires players to mold their behavior to the DM's preferred narrative. The latter allows players to lean on their real world knowledge of acquiring proper gear for a real world expedition (granting that magic items are the stand in for modern technology).
But some of us don't want our fantasy worlds to be simply the real world with different special effects mapped over it. In fact, I dare say the vast majority don't. If I want to play 'fantasy world' where magic items are for sale all over the place, I'll play Star Wars.
Also, I do NOT grant that magic items are the stand in for modern technology; I in fact hate the idea and always have. Clarke's Law is NOT bidirectional.
("Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.")
Uncle Gronan- thank you. I've downloaded both games and actually did find a very cheap copy of Universal Soldier. Very appreciated.
Will get to reading and trying them out as time permits.
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;850514I recommend miniatures because you can get a wider variety of scenarios. The straight "meeting engagement" between two roughly equal size forces is the single least interesting form of battle.
How is this different from any other wargame? I only play ASL, but the straight meeting engagement between two roughly equal size forces is
very rare there.
Quote from: Pyromancer;850537How is this different from any other wargame? I only play ASL, but the straight meeting engagement between two roughly equal size forces is very rare there.
Some, but not all, board-style wargames, especially on the strategic level, are basically one scenario.
Plus, the fact is I just like miniatures better. But something like a simple Squad Leader or PanzerBlitz is good too. ASL is excellent, but with all the bells and whistles it's a bit much.
And Luftwaffe is just fun.
But whatever the game, I want non-wargamers to realize the meeting engagement is the least interesting type of battle.
If you really want to hone your skill, fight a rearguard action where you have to delay the enemy for X turns, AND escape with at least Y percent of your own force intact.
Quote from: RunningLaser;850525Uncle Gronan- thank you. I've downloaded both games and actually did find a very cheap copy of Universal Soldier. Very appreciated.
Will get to reading and trying them out as time permits.
Cool!
With cardstock figures available, expense should not be an issue.
What, no Memoir '44 love?
As for creating challenging gameplay -- for me it's been a corollary of creating a lifelike world. Don't design around your players. Don't fall into the MMO-like trap of populating the vicinity with level-appropariate encounters. Just make sure that warning signs (from rumors picked up at the inn, from carcasses of large animals) mark the too-damn-high-HD danger zone.
Play monsters smart. Deploy traps, missile weapons, poison, tactics, hell, maybe even siege weapons if the occasion calls for it. Mechanically inclined goblins move into an abandoned keep and take upon themselves to repair or rebuild a catapult or ballistae. Now you have a bunch of goblins with the higher ground, behind walls of good masonry built to last, raining down boulders on the unwary. So much for "just a bunch of goblins."
Outside combat? Every Call of Cthulhu Keeper's got this down to a science. The only way to stop the Ancient Eldricht Horror is a tome or scroll in an undecipherable dead tongue. They have to find the one sage in town who can translate, ideally before the Cult of the Ancient Eldricht Horror get their grubby mutant hands on her.
Or the Great Macguffin of Good is inside a chest with a complex mechanism with interlocking wheels that operate on obscure symbology and a ton of research is needed, including but not limited to consulting sages in different cities, a wizard who resides in a pocket dimension of his own making, a lich, a beholder, a dragon... all who have to be bargained with in order to part with the appropriate knowledge. Hell, maybe it's easier to track down the lock's creator in the afterlife and shake the combination out of his unliving shade.