I was flipping through the Castle Keeper's Guide for Castles and Crusades and came across some tables for each class called Land and Title as Treasure. They looked pretty interesting. Anyone use them or something similar in a game?

It's pretty neat in C&C; you can have Level 1 or 2 characters be given a small fief. They get pretty excited--until they find out the fief that's been granted is right in the borderlands, close to where the latest ravaging horror has been spotted on moonless nights. Oh, and you have a single family on your property, and they're living in burnt-out squalor. It adds another dimension to the game, and really expands into some neat quests for the characters as well as a good idea to expand on the age-old "what did I do in my down time?" question.

I like how they don't just assume it'll be a one-size-fits-all sort of thing, either--Rogues have their own land and title progression, as do Barbarians, Wizards, etc...

That may be worth getting the game for by itself.
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Huge fan of stronghold and domain "Name-level" play in D&D and derived games... but I have a hard time thinking of lands and titles as "treasure."

I've only skimmed through the CKG, once. Care to elaborate on how C&C handles this?

Pretty intriguing but how would a 1st or 2nd level character deal with it realistically while always adventuring? Some dude 6-7th level would just take over like in modern farm operations.

Well, it could be literal ("in the rotting old chest, you found the deed to Tegel Manor and all the lands surrounding!), and more "treasure"="reward for x amount of adventuring".

As far as how it works, there are tables showing suggested grants, titles, and privileges for each level, if used as treasure. Perhaps the best part is how it addresses that land and titles aren't probably a "one size fits all concept", and provides different offerings for each class.

For example, a Rogue might start off as just a footman for the local Thieves' Guild, but let's say he totally crushes that dwarven syndicate's last effort to gain a foothold in the city. As a reward, he's now a Scout, in charge of an entire city block (this would be around Level 4). Per the table, he probably has 2-4 footmen in his area of jurisdiction, and can expect about 25 gold per month as his cut--if he runs things well and keeps the dodgy path clear in his neck of the woods.


Let's check out our Ranger, who managed to clear the road of those same brigands who were also trying to get a cut in the city. The local lord knows the Ranger won't want to be tied to a manor house or a fief, but he does need a warden. He's awarded the title of Pathfinder (again, this is around Level 4), is given about 50 square miles (ward) to protect in trust, and even ends up with 1-2 hireling scouts/foresters to keep an eye on things. He has free lodging when he needs to come into town, and draws a regular salary, or other income in kind.

Let's skip ahead a few levels. Maybe the Ranger hasn't done much, and the lord hasn't seen any reason to give the Ranger any more land to protect. There's nothing there to say this is an automatic raise or reward. Maybe the Ranger has been off fighting the good fight elsewhere, and just hopes his two foresters don't raise too much hell or allow too much poaching while he's gone. He can stay at that level of title and land reward, and that's ok....and like any other treasure, what's given can be taken away...

On the other hand, the Rogue is all about getting in good with his guild. He's made the streets safe for dishonest folks, stopped the Assassin's Guild once or twice, and even saved one of the higher-ups life a couple of times. In turn, he's seen his status rise. He's gone from controlling a city block and a handful of pickpockets to being a "Goodman" in charge of the neighboring town (also under Guild control). It isn't a massive town, but it's a port with some decent traffic. He has somewhere between 8-36 ne'er-do-wells he's responsible for, and can count on a nice, regular cut of the pie. (This is around Level 7). If he keeps at it, who knows?  One day, he could sit on the Guild Council itself, with a puffed-up title such as Grand Doge....



Also mentioned in the charts for more traditional grants are size, how large a yearly soldier levy is probably expected by the liege lord, and what sort of profit the land might turn. The system isn't just for those Knights or Fighters who want the usual titles and land, but it definitely includes the basics of the considerations for "domain-level" style of play, if the players want to go that way with it. Heck, it mentions that some folks might just want to get some vassals and be done with it. Nothing wrong with that, either.


It's pretty good stuff. Like most things in C&C, it's easy to bolt on if you want it, or remove it if you don't--or adapt it to your related game of choice. It's a nice addition for campaigns that want this sort of thing, and like much of C&C, it has some good ideas without being too complicated.

Hope that helps explain a bit. The CKG is a lot of fun--sort of a bit of everything in there, not unlike the 1e DMG or HackMaster 4e GM's Guide (different tone, of course).

Hmm...do you think it could be ported over to 2/3e or even better 5e without massive work? Or would it only fit 0/1e?

Quote from: Marleycat;755531Hmm...do you think it could be ported over to 2/3e or even better 5e without massive work? Or would it only fit 0/1e?

I can't speak for 5e, but C&C is usually pretty compatible on these things with 3.x, 2e, or the older editions, as well. I don't see why it wouldn't work pretty handily. Most of the stuff in the CKG (and C&C) is pretty easy to move over to any of those systems or their close kin.

I'd own the CKG in PDF already, if it wasn't $28. :eek:

And I missed out on the Kickstarter because, much as I love the Trolls and the game they publish, $76 for shipping is bad. An order from Amazon or even Noble Knight will be cheaper than getting them from the publisher, and that's whack.

Still, I'll grab that book someday. I'm a sucker for domain, stronghold and rulership subsystems in RPGs. I even considered picking up the Ultimate Campaign book for Pathfinder, a game I don't play.

I wish companies didn't price PDFs like that. I was lucky and got it cheaper as a combo deal. Usually, unless it's right around $10, I won't go in for it.

Yeah, that stinks on shipping—domestic was free. Understandable why you wouldn't pull the trigger on that, tempting as it probably was.

Quote from: Marleycat;755507Pretty intriguing but how would a 1st or 2nd level character deal with it realistically while always adventuring? Some dude 6-7th level would just take over like in modern farm operations.

This has come up in many campaigns I have played or gm'd.

What usually happens is the pc becomes reliant on a (hopefully) loyal follower to manage things when he is off adventuring.

Or, the land gets pillaged while the pc is a way, and that creates a nice plot hook.

Some more examples for those interested.

For a Wizard @ 1st level the rewards are library access, a room to stay in, and 10 GP/month stipend. @ 2nd level rewards are a spell grant (basically a free spell learned), room + board, and 25 GP/month stipend.

For a Cleric @ 1st level the rewards are a room to stay in and 5 GP/month stipend. @ 4th level the rewards are an acolyte for the cleric, lesser sanctuary for the cleric and his companions, and 45 GP/month. (Regarding sanctuary the note states: Lesser  Sanctuary  includes  use  of  the  temple  ground  for  the  cleric and their comrades for rest and recuperation. Full Sanctuary includes healing, blessings, cure disease and the like.)

This all sounds pretty cool... self-generates a lot of adventure resources and complications/hooks.
I'd been meaning to check out C&C for a while now,it get's mentioned a fair bit on Save Or Die.

Quote from: Simlasa;755698This all sounds pretty cool... self-generates a lot of adventure resources and complications/hooks.
I'd been meaning to check out C&C for a while now,it get's mentioned a fair bit on Save Or Die.

Both Save or Die and Roll for Initiative are great idea podcasts for C&C, despite not really being C&C-specific. I still get a lot of ideas and enjoyment out of both.

I wish I could get the book I'd find a way to include that system and tables in 5e. It shouldn't be hard.