Quote from: OneTinSoldier;314855We are already laboring under the geek symbol, and in increasing competition with video media games. When you reduce or eliminate the high-gloss RPG products, you will reduce the ability to draw fresh gamers.

Yes, but...

... in all seriousness, honestly...

... so what?

RPGs are a niche hobby.  The niche may expand or contract slightly, but it's not going away.  There will always be games out there.

I'm also into historical miniatures.  Most new people enter because they know somebody who is already into historical miniatures wargaming, not because the cover of "Medieveal Warfare" looks snazzier than the cover of "Chainmail".

I guess I'm sort of apathetic on this subject because I was in the retail end of the industry 1980-1983 and worked for Dave Arneson 1983-1985.  I saw the first big collapse, and the days of D&D alone selling millions of dollars per month for years at a time, never mind the REST of TSR or the rest of the industry, are gone forever.

It's a hobby spread by word of mouth.  RPGs are too, or will be soon.

Shrug.  So what?  The world wags on.

Quote from: OneTinSoldier;314855We are already laboring under the geek symbol, and in increasing competition with video media games. When you reduce or eliminate the high-gloss RPG products, you will reduce the ability to draw fresh gamers.

This is not an argument aimed at you particularly, Tin Soldier, but your point here raises an eyebrow on my part and makes me want to say:

Ask pretty much anybody in this thread, or any message board out there: chances are, they play tabletop RPGs because someone else introduced them to this hobby some time, somehow (that, or they got a basic set for Xmas as kids during the 1970s/80s).

Conclusion? High-gloss RPG products IMO do not attract new players. Gamers who actually have non-gamer friends, some decent social skills, and invite people they like to play an RPG from time to time, do. Gamers who post ads to play in a new group of people who already are gamers do not attract new people to this hobby. People who instead just create new groups with the people they know aren't gamers, do.

If we want to help the hobby attract new gamers, we'd better invite people at our game tables instead of discussing about high-gloss products on the intratubes.

Quote from: Benoist;314958This is not an argument aimed at you particularly, Tin Soldier, but your point here raises an eyebrow on my part and makes me want to say:

Ask pretty much anybody in this thread, or any message board out there: chances are, they play tabletop RPGs because someone else introduced them to this hobby some time, somehow (that, or they got a basic set for Xmas as kids during the 1970s/80s).

Conclusion? High-gloss RPG products IMO do not attract new players. Gamers who actually have non-gamer friends, some decent social skills, and invite people they like to play an RPG from time to time, do. Gamers who post ads to play in a new group of people who already are gamers do not attract new people to this hobby. People who instead just create new groups with the people they know aren't gamers, do.

If we want to help the hobby attract new gamers, we'd better invite people at our game tables instead of discussing about high-gloss products on the intratubes.

You are right to a point (IMO): we need to draw non-gamers in and give them a positive exposure. In the last five years my group has introduced numerous people to the hobby.

However, marketting sells-that's a fact of life. Kids who see 4e products (& the like) in book stores can and will be attracted by the fact that they are visually appealing. It creates a favorable impression if nothing else. It is a gateway device.

I got into paintball (mil-sim) in the early days of the sport. We were a niche hobby, too (although with a lot easier sell: you wanna go shoot people?). The then speedball manufacturers started producing glossy high-image magazines, colorful jerseys, flash guns (which worked no better than those before), and in the space of a couple years you can get scholarships for paintball (speedball; we mil-sim types are still grubbing along in the wings).

I'm not saying RPGs can get that sort of acceptance-shooting people is always going to be much more socially valued than RPGs, but the point was that glam sells, and more importantly, it engenders cultural acceptance.

Recruiting is important, and every GM should make it a priority, but society's view of the hobby is certainly a factor.

Quote from: Old Geezer;314573Dur?

He stopped being a game designer and became an author because being a fifth-rate fantasy author pays far, far, far better than any RPG gig not involving Hasbro, or MAYBE ... no, no second place.

Or possibly, he wanted to be a fantasy author more and didn't want to bother with running a full time business, which is a pain in the ass.

Also, he's a pretty successful new author. You're somewhat out of touch.

QuoteGaming pays shit.

It's not that much different from semipro and pro genre rates once you work with a business that at all has its act together.

QuoteWhy do you think Steve Brust stopped running his fantasy world and started writing it up as books instead of publishing RPGs?  Even back in 1985 there was no longer any real money in RPGs.

Fun fact:It wasn't Steven Brust's fantasy world at first. It was his GM's (Robert Sloan). Brust changed the names around in his variant and the two of them seem to have a gentleman's agreement about the whole thing. They *both* write in offshoots of that campaign world (originally Piarra).

Also, it may be possible that Steven Brust wanted to write fiction instead of publishing RPGs.

There are lots of people who love RPGs and have no interest in publishing them or doing any paid work on them at all.

Casual gaming as it exists in the computer/console gaming field can't really exist in RPGs. Why?

1) "Casual gaming" is 50% code for "Nintendo." The Nintendo style is derived from the first video games. It's not a new revolutionary thing - it's fucking Donkey Kong and his heirs.

2) Analog versions of these games already exist. They have names like "Monopoly."

3) The RPG definition -- a focus on short term, self-contained play -- isn't really the same thing. People who play Mario Kart and DDR are lumped in the "Casual" category even if they play them all the time. What you have to ask is if there's a significant demand for these games. The answer is "maybe sorta." Most of the people who currently play self-consciously casual gamers are in fact hardcore gamers (hint: If you're going to cons and camps to play these games, you are not playing "casually").

I think the BECMI ladder structure needs to be given another shot, myself.

Quote from: Benoist;314958This is not an argument aimed at you particularly, Tin Soldier, but your point here raises an eyebrow on my part and makes me want to say:

Ask pretty much anybody in this thread, or any message board out there: chances are, they play tabletop RPGs because someone else introduced them to this hobby some time, somehow (that, or they got a basic set for Xmas as kids during the 1970s/80s).

Conclusion? High-gloss RPG products IMO do not attract new players. Gamers who actually have non-gamer friends, some decent social skills, and invite people they like to play an RPG from time to time, do. Gamers who post ads to play in a new group of people who already are gamers do not attract new people to this hobby. People who instead just create new groups with the people they know aren't gamers, do.

If we want to help the hobby attract new gamers, we'd better invite people at our game tables instead of discussing about high-gloss products on the intratubes.

I probably would have found my way into the hobby on my own, but I do otherwise agree with your point.

My first roleplaying was with some friends that introduced me to AD&D2E in high school.  In fact, I wound up as the DM.

That said, as a comic geek I had purchased one of the X-Men supplements for the Marvel FASERIP game, thinking it was a game unto itself, and not realizing it were a supplement.  Once I bought it, I would have actively sought out the Marvel rules (I later stumbled across them and snatched them up right away), but my high school buddies introduced me to AD&D first.  Now, if I hadn't MADE those friends in high school, I don't know if I would have ever gotten to PLAY the Marvel game, so there ya go...=)

Quote from: Benoist;314958If we want to help the hobby attract new gamers, we'd better invite people at our game tables instead of discussing about high-gloss products on the intratubes.

Yes but nerds are shy and lazy

Plus, if it's up to us, we don't get to bitch about useless rpg companies, instead having to bitch... well, at us.

Wouldn't you rather blame someone else for your troubles?

Quote from: OneTinSoldiershooting people is always going to be much more socially valued than RPGs

That's a beautiful line.

Quote from: J Arcane;313676This is not goddamn video games, let's not borrow their bankrupt and insulting terminology, shall we?

"Casual gamer" is nothing more than an invented marketing term, used to artificially segment the market and make the job of vidgame publishers easier.

The moment you start falling into that artificial "casual" vs. "hardcore" mindset, everyone suffers as a result, and a lot of shitty games start pouring down the pipe.

Do you people really want that to happen to RPGs too?  Do you want to see piles of shitty games pumped out to pander to imaginary marketing labels, games whose sole selling points and design philosophy are "It's easy, so casuals should like it" or "It has gore and shooting, so hardcore gamers should like it"?  

The battle's been lost for now to the marketing teams in the vidgame world, and I hope and pray they'll come around to remembering the lessons of previous generations in time before it's too late.  

But I see no reason why we shouldn't leave this pointless and condescending labeling to the vidgame world.

You do realize this is how EVERYTHING is marketed though, right?

Given the amount of money the advertising industry has made companies from Coca Cola to McDonald's, I don't really think they're going to rethink market segmentation, the way everything has been marketed for 70 years or so, just to avoid a little nerdrage.

Do all 18-30 year old men watch the Simpsons?

No.

Do they all want every product advertised on the Simpsons if they do?

Again, no.

Do enough 18-30 year old men watch the Simpsons and buy the products advertised there to make those demographics advertisers use to target them statistically useful?

Yes.

The only problem I see using market segmentation on tabletop RPGs is that the market is so small.

I contend that TTRPGs are in fact a very small portion of some other business, at least statistically*, either the book trade generally (including comics) or the game trade generally (including board games and video games).

My guess whomever is calling some segment of the TTRPG market "casual" has decided its the latter, that TTRPG customers can be considered as a tiny sliver of the much larger video game market.

Chuck

*This is why D&D's market share of RPGs is significant to no one in government. Are they a monopoly? Well, if RPGs are really a distinct market, then yes, Wizard's dominance of the RPG space is as total as Microsoft's is over the OS market.

They don't, because when you compare even WOTC to a company like Capcom, Electronic Arts, Square Enix, Activision-Blizzard and so forth, it suddenly doesn't look like the same 800 lb. gorilla it does when standing next to any other TTRPG company.

The FTC thought WotC buying TSR important enough to almost block the sale, especially since WotC had been buying up lots of smaller companies. They looked at the merger in light of the small market. They approved the sale, and blocked further acquisitions by WotC for a period (2 years, IIRC)...

Quote from: aramis;315151The FTC thought WotC buying TSR important enough to almost block the sale, especially since WotC had been buying up lots of smaller companies. They looked at the merger in light of the small market. They approved the sale, and blocked further acquisitions by WotC for a period (2 years, IIRC)...

I find that... odd.

Maybe it was all that Pokemon money that got their attention?

Color me surprised if the RPG side of WOTC had anything to do with it.

QuoteYou do realize this is how EVERYTHING is marketed though, right?

If everyone jumped off a bridge, would you jump too?

Quote from: J Arcane;315154If everyone jumped off a bridge, would you jump too?

If everyone who jumped off that bridge saw their businesses increase at the rate Coca Cola and McDonald's have, and didn't, you know, die?

YES!

Quote from: RPGObjects_chuck;315157If everyone who jumped off that bridge saw their businesses increase at the rate Coca Cola and McDonald's have, and didn't, you know, die?

YES!

So that's it then? Profit is all that matters, creative impact is a completely irrelevant consideration, we should all just pander to the easiest demographics and not put more than a second's thought towards making sure any of it is quality?

Shouting at the top of your lungs that "Everyone does it!  It makes money!" doesn't really in anyway discount the effects it nevertheless has.

I've pointed out why I think this kind of marketing bull is detrimental creatively and qualitatively.  All you're doing is frothing at the mouth, which I'd note you seem to be doing a lot today.  This is the third thread you've stormed into and started screaming at everyone hysterically.

You seriously need to calm the fuck down before you blow a damn vessel.

Quote from: J Arcane;315158So that's it then? Profit is all that matters, creative impact is a completely irrelevant consideration, we should all just pander to the easiest demographics and not put more than a second's thought towards making sure any of it is quality?

Shouting at the top of your lungs that "Everyone does it!  It makes money!" doesn't really in anyway discount the effects it nevertheless has.

I've pointed out why I think this kind of marketing bull is detrimental creatively and qualitatively.  All you're doing is frothing at the mouth, which I'd note you seem to be doing a lot today.  This is the third thread you've stormed into and started screaming at everyone hysterically.

You seriously need to calm the fuck down before you blow a damn vessel.

How am I screaming hysterically?

And yes, profit is all that matters, because we're talking about marketing.

The purpose of marketing is to sell things.

That happens after the creative stuff is done (ideally).

Quote from: RPGObjects_chuck;315160How am I screaming hysterically?

I dunno, maybe it's all the ALL CAPS?!?!!?!!!?! that give the impression perhaps?  

QuoteAnd yes, profit is all that matters, because we're talking about marketing.

The purpose of marketing is to sell things.

That happens after the creative stuff is done (ideally).

Yeah.  If only we lived in that magical fairyland where marketing never ever affects the product.  

Shame it doesn't work that way in the real world.