Quote from: RandallS;313720I don't see what caring about new editions (or other games in general) has to do with the issue. People playing OD&D or some other out-of-print game are just as much a part of the RPG HOBBY as people playing the latest release from publisher X or publisher Z. The current businesses in the RPG INDUSTRY may have no interest in them as they aren't buying their product, but that still leaves them a part of the hobby... just not very active part of the hobby if they only play once a year.

Buying stuff is not necessary to be part of the hobby -- many of the players I've had over the years never bought anything from the industry other than some weird shaped dice and maybe a miniature to represent their character in the battle order.

Sure. But 'casual gamer' doesn't have to be derogatory. And I think it's a useful term. For starters, 90 per cent of the shit discussed and argued about on RPG boards are absolutely meaningless to casual gamers. They don't care about theory. They don't care about editions. They don't care about RPG companies. And all the people who argue passionately about those subjects should recognize that they are not casual gamers, and they do not represent most people who play RPGs.

Casual gamers is also a designation to steer gamers towards or away from certain games. My players are all casual. They don't buy or read RPG books, or read forums. To them, RPGs are just a game we set up and play once in a while. They invest no more into them than they do into a night of poker. So it's useful to recognize that Ars Magica, for example, is not a suitable game for casual players. It's not a game you can simply sit down and play after a 15 minute summary of the rules. So it's off the table for my group.

Boardgamers have no problem recognizing the value of casual versus hardcore designations - between someone who may enjoy sitting down to play Memoir '44, but who would find Advanced Squad Leader way too much effort to be fun. But I find boardgamers are much more disappassionate (and non-judgemental) about their preferences than RPGers. Not really sure why that is.

Quote from: Fifth Element;313785Most of the people I play with enjoy getting together and playing, but spend very little or no time on the game outside of the playing sessions, and mostly rely on other players for the rules.

It doesn't make them lesser gamers somehow, but it does make them different.

Exactly.

Quote from: RPGPundit;313863I think that the only problem with the term "Casual gamer" in RPGs is that there are hardly any of them around anymore. And yes, that might be because certain mouth-breathers have come to give a negative connotation to that term, when in fact "Casual Gamers" is what the hobby desperately, desperately needs.  Unfortunately, the lawncrappers don't like them because they tend to be people who'd not approve of their lawn-crappery, and the gaming companies don't make games that are friendly to the casual gamer, because they'd rather sell $300 gold-leaf rule-intense hardbounds to to a handful of aging, drooling fanboys.

RPGPundit

Exactly so. I agree 100%

The pool of gamers I had in high school and college was a lot bigger than now. Most of them were what you would call casual. Now, everybody I know is either really jaded, hardcore or both.

Hmm, again the term 'casual gamer' fails us, but even with the new, old, bad, dead or ancient meanings, I don't really recall many casual gamers being scared of learning about the games' mechanics.  

Quote from: aramis;313772Fantasy Hero isn't a good game for casual players only because hero system is complex enough that casual players seldom have a firm grasp on the why behind all the numbers. If the GM writes up the characters, it's still simple enough for a casual player to play in... just not to write up new PC's for (unless hero is their preferred system)...

T&T is simple enough to be "grab-n-go"... the entire system can be explained well enough to run it in 10 pages; everything else is equipment, options, advice, and elaborations.

And it's still in print in two editions (5.5 and 7.5).

Given a choice, I prefer to put new players into a simpler system 1st, and get them Role-playing. And when they complain about the system's simplicity, move to more complex games.

Quote from: Tamelorn;313996Hmm, again the term 'casual gamer' fails us, but even with the new, old, bad, dead or ancient meanings, I don't really recall many casual gamers being scared of learning about the games' mechanics.

It's just more condescending twaddle, exactly the kind I'm talking about.  aramis' hate on for AD&D seems to have more to do with his claims than anything else.

Historically speaking, the games that have brought in the largest numbers of people, weren't "rules-light" games.  As I've said before, new gamers don't give a shit about rules-light, it's old gamers who've gotten too lazy to learn or absorb new rules.

Quote from: Haffrung;313927Sure. But 'casual gamer' doesn't have to be derogatory. And I think it's a useful term.

I don't think it is derogatory. What I thought was derogatory is the idea that these folks aren't part of "the hobby."  The idea that just playing an RPG every once in a while doesn't count because one doesn't know about the latest releases or care that there is a new edition of the game they play is out annoys me greatly.

As far as video/computer games go, I'm a "casual gamer."  I've never emjoyed or been able to finish most of the large, complex RPGs or other computer games. They bore me and take more time to play than have. There are, however, several games from the "causal games" branch of the gaming market that I play and enjoy. They can be played quickly (or well-defined parts of them can be finished quickly -- during a 10-15 minute break). They don't require a lot of hand-eye coordination or fast reaction time. They don't have much learning curve. Etc.

The computer games I play would probably bore most "serious" computer gamers to tears. The thing is I don't care. I choose games I enjoy playing. I don't care if they are loathed as wastes of computer power by the hardcore computer gamers any more than I care that my favorite editions of D&D are not very popular today. I play what I like to play and don't give a damn what others think of what I play or what label some marketing executive came up with for what I play.

I aspire to be a casual gamer. My actual table-manner is very casual (to the point that I suspect it annoys some other players). It's just all the time between sessions that I spend hanging out and posting at sites like this (and the huge closetful of game stuff, albeit mostly acquired 12+ years ago) that spoils the facade and exposes me as an ultra-hardcore game geek who's just posing as a casual gamer.

Quote from: Tamelorn;313996Hmm, again the term 'casual gamer' fails us, but even with the new, old, bad, dead or ancient meanings, I don't really recall many casual gamers being scared of learning about the games' mechanics.

Scared of learning them? No. In play, HS4-5 are simple enough. It's the character generation that scares them off. Hand them a character, and they're fine with it. hand them a blank character sheet, and often it's traumatic enough that they won't play again.

Ironically, RoleMaster 1 or Rolemaster 2 are simpler (by far), but far more scary due to the massive piles of tables. (That's a game not to run unless you have a photocopier.)

My experiences with Casual gamers are that, basically, anything where CGen requires getting invested in the character is a bad thing, and anything that requires a session for CGen before hitting play is a bad thing.

Quote from: aramis;314010Scared of learning them? No. In play, HS4-5 are simple enough. It's the character generation that scares them off. Hand them a character, and they're fine with it. hand them a blank character sheet, and often it's traumatic enough that they won't play again.

Ironically, RoleMaster 1 or Rolemaster 2 are simpler (by far), but far more scary due to the massive piles of tables. (That's a game not to run unless you have a photocopier.)

My experiences with Casual gamers are that, basically, anything where CGen requires getting invested in the character is a bad thing, and anything that requires a session for CGen before hitting play is a bad thing.

The RPG that is friendly to the causal gamer is one where you come to it cold (no preparation) and stupid (no prior knowledge), roll up a PC that doesn't suck in five minutes or less, and get to playing within 10 minutes of sitting down for the first time.  Running it for the first time stretching it to 15, as there's no big difference between PC and NPC creation.  It ought to be free to download; addons available by micropayments (and I mean "$1 for a new class" or something like that), and the publisher plays curator for the best fan-created stuff (that he can sell for $2, give the fan $1, and pocket the other).

Cheap, easy, modular, and focused on PDFs for delivery. (Print available via POD for those that want it.)  That's a casual-friendly game.

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;314028The RPG that is friendly to the causal gamer is one where you come to it cold (no preparation) and stupid (no prior knowledge), roll up a PC that doesn't suck in five minutes or less, and get to playing within 10 minutes of sitting down for the first time.  Running it for the first time stretching it to 15, as there's no big difference between PC and NPC creation.  It ought to be free to download; addons available by micropayments (and I mean "$1 for a new class" or something like that), and the publisher plays curator for the best fan-created stuff (that he can sell for $2, give the fan $1, and pocket the other).

Cheap, easy, modular, and focused on PDFs for delivery. (Print available via POD for those that want it.)  That's a casual-friendly game.

The level of sheer delusion required to believe this is so laughable as to almost make me pity it's victim.

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;314028The RPG that is friendly to the causal gamer is one where you come to it cold (no preparation) and stupid (no prior knowledge), roll up a PC that doesn't suck in five minutes or less, and get to playing within 10 minutes of sitting down for the first time.

So far, I agree. Most of the casual gamers I've run for would agree

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;314028Running it for the first time stretching it to 15, as there's no big difference between PC and NPC creation.

here, you're going in illogical directions...

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;314028It ought to be free to download; addons available by micropayments (and I mean "$1 for a new class" or something like that), and the publisher plays curator for the best fan-created stuff (that he can sell for $2, give the fan $1, and pocket the other).

Cheap, easy, modular, and focused on PDFs for delivery. (Print available via POD for those that want it.)  That's a casual-friendly game.

and here you've jumped the shark sooo badly...Cheap or free? Generally not a good indicator. And "Collectible" is not good for the casual gamers I've known.

Exactly, that's just how D&D and Traveller and Cthulhu and the rest did so well. By offering their material cheap or free.

I guess I have to tell the story of Conflict again. Originally I wrote it as On Killing, it was put up at a Millennium's End website, it got over 1,200 downloads and... zero comments or emails.

I took it down, expanded it a bit, retitled it Conflict, and a Person's Place in it, gave it a free clipart cover, and put it up at rpgnow.com for five bucks. It got a few hundred downloads, buyer reviews, lots of comment and critique both public and private, and to this day I get emails about it. One guy wants to translate it into Portugese for his Brazilian mates.

If you want your stuff to be downloaded, make it free. If you want it to be read and played, charge money for it.

There's a strength trainer down my neck of the woods, while he charged for the training he used to give diet plans for free. Nobody followed them. Then he charged $30 for them, less people asked for them but everyone who got one followed it.

In general, people value what they pay for, and do not value what they don't. If "make it free" was enough to make things enormously popular, then everyone would be using Linux and OpenOffice, and hardly anyone would use MicroSquash products.

My impression is the gamers who clamour for free downloads already have far, far more game material than they could ever use. They're just addicted to acquiring more stuff.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;314096Exactly, that's just how D&D and Traveller and Cthulhu and the rest did so well. By offering their material cheap or free.

I guess I have to tell the story of Conflict again. Originally I wrote it as On Killing, it was put up at a Millennium's End website, it got over 1,200 downloads and... zero comments or emails.

I took it down, expanded it a bit, retitled it Conflict, and a Person's Place in it, gave it a free clipart cover, and put it up at rpgnow.com for five bucks. It got a few hundred downloads, buyer reviews, lots of comment and critique both public and private, and to this day I get emails about it. One guy wants to translate it into Portugese for his Brazilian mates.

If you want your stuff to be downloaded, make it free. If you want it to be read and played, charge money for it.

There's a strength trainer down my neck of the woods, while he charged for the training he used to give diet plans for free. Nobody followed them. Then he charged $30 for them, less people asked for them but everyone who got one followed it.

In general, people value what they pay for, and do not value what they don't. If "make it free" was enough to make things enormously popular, then everyone would be using Linux and OpenOffice, and hardly anyone would use MicroSquash products.

This is totally true.

I take advantage of freebies all the time from RPGnow and the like, and I then disregard 98% of them.  They sit on my computer, but I open them, skim them, put them away, and worry way more about the stuff I spent money on.  As I said, there are exceptions, but they are few and far between.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;314096Exactly, that's just how D&D and Traveller and Cthulhu and the rest did so well. By offering their material cheap or free.

I guess I have to tell the story of Conflict again. Originally I wrote it as On Killing, it was put up at a Millennium's End website, it got over 1,200 downloads and... zero comments or emails.

I took it down, expanded it a bit, retitled it Conflict, and a Person's Place in it, gave it a free clipart cover, and put it up at rpgnow.com for five bucks. It got a few hundred downloads, buyer reviews, lots of comment and critique both public and private, and to this day I get emails about it. One guy wants to translate it into Portugese for his Brazilian mates.

If you want your stuff to be downloaded, make it free. If you want it to be read and played, charge money for it.

There's a strength trainer down my neck of the woods, while he charged for the training he used to give diet plans for free. Nobody followed them. Then he charged $30 for them, less people asked for them but everyone who got one followed it.

In general, people value what they pay for, and do not value what they don't. If "make it free" was enough to make things enormously popular, then everyone would be using Linux and OpenOffice, and hardly anyone would use MicroSquash products.

QFT.

"Free" is a price in itself in marketing strategy, and has its own advantages and flaws.

I swear to God: Chris Perkins (no, not that Chris Perkins, another), who wrote AD&D3 (no, not that Third Edition, another), did a brilliant, brilliant job. It *is* AD&D, pieces together some d20 improvements, a variant SIEGE mechanic, expands on it ... and creates it's own distinct edition of the game. It's got a PHB and UA for free download. It's AWESOME. I don't know anybody who plays it though or puts it with the other retroclones, C&Cs and such. Why? Because it's free.

If it wasn't free it'd be immensely popular with old-schoolers. It's really, really good.

Edit: for those interested, it's available as PDF downloads on that webpage. Just scroll down until you see on the left-hand side "Advanced Dungeons & Dragons Player's Handbook" and just below "Unearthed Arcana". Right click, save as. That's the stuff I'm talking about here.