This is not goddamn video games, let's not borrow their bankrupt and insulting terminology, shall we?

"Casual gamer" is nothing more than an invented marketing term, used to artificially segment the market and make the job of vidgame publishers easier.

The moment you start falling into that artificial "casual" vs. "hardcore" mindset, everyone suffers as a result, and a lot of shitty games start pouring down the pipe.

Do you people really want that to happen to RPGs too?  Do you want to see piles of shitty games pumped out to pander to imaginary marketing labels, games whose sole selling points and design philosophy are "It's easy, so casuals should like it" or "It has gore and shooting, so hardcore gamers should like it"?  

The battle's been lost for now to the marketing teams in the vidgame world, and I hope and pray they'll come around to remembering the lessons of previous generations in time before it's too late.  

But I see no reason why we shouldn't leave this pointless and condescending labeling to the vidgame world.

I agree.

No disagreement here.

Well, when you consider the biggest game in our hobby has been re-tooled for the "hard core" raiding & endgame kiddies, I think you've already lost. (I kid, I kid - sorta)

And I resent the terminology, too - just because I'm not playing WoW 12 hours a day and gearing up in all epic stuff and hitting level 80 by next Wednesday dosn't mean I don't take my gaming seriously.

Quote from: Werekoala;313703Well, when you consider the biggest game in our hobby has been re-tooled for the "hard core" raiding & endgame kiddies, I think you've already lost. (I kid, I kid - sorta)

And I resent the terminology, too - just because I'm not playing WoW 12 hours a day and gearing up in all epic stuff and hitting level 80 by next Wednesday dosn't mean I don't take my gaming seriously.

It's really started to gain ground mainly with the most recent generation of consoles.  The notion of such a split was toyed with to some extent prior particularly in the PC space, but back in the days of the PS2 and earlier, this notion of some arbitrary split between "hardcore" and "casual" flatly did not exist, and gaming was all the better for it.  They made games, and people played them, people from all walks of life.  

Look at GTA.  The previous games in the series were all about just making a fun game, and as a result everyone and their goddamn mother played them.  There was more than enough fun to be had there regardless of your personal investment in gaming time.  

I think RPGs should be treated exactly the same way.  Just make the game you want to play, and in a way that gives other people lots of different ways to play it as well, and you'll be rolling in it.  After all, isn't that exactly what Gygax, et al set out to do in the first place?

Quote from: Werekoala;313703And I resent the terminology, too - just because I'm not playing WoW 12 hours a day and gearing up in all epic stuff and hitting level 80 by next Wednesday dosn't mean I don't take my gaming seriously.

Agreed there too. I often see "casual gamer" to really mean "not a real gamer with a valuable opinion on the topic at hand", "hardcore gamer" meaning "a guy with no life who can't possibly have clue there are some things more important than RPGs".

These terminologies aren't really that useful, in the end.

In my experience as it relates to D&D an awful lot of "casual gamers" are the ones who play 1E.

I know at least two groups of folks who crack out the old books once a year or so to game with some old friends.  They've been doing it since the early 80s.

To me, they are casual gamers.  They don't really care that other editions ever came out, have no interest in following the "hobby".  It is, to them, like cracking open an old board game such a s monopoly once a year.

But wouldn't it be fair to say that Tunnels & Trolls is better suited to a causal player than Fantasy Hero?

They are both fantasy rpgs with proud histories and traditions but they are very much at opposite ends of a the spectrum.

Quote from: Soylent Green;313715But wouldn't it be fair to say that Tunnels & Trolls is better suited to a causal player than Fantasy Hero?

They are both fantasy rpgs with proud histories and traditions but they are very much at opposite ends of a the spectrum.

I've known plenty of people who were far from "casual" who enjoyed both.  

For fuck's sake, Pundit's love of T&T is so great he made a whole new game inspired by it.  That's pretty opposed to "casual" in my book.

Quote from: Mistwell;313714To me, they are casual gamers.  They don't really care that other editions ever came out, have no interest in following the "hobby".  It is, to them, like cracking open an old board game such a s monopoly once a year.

I don't see what caring about new editions (or other games in general) has to do with the issue. People playing OD&D or some other out-of-print game are just as much a part of the RPG HOBBY as people playing the latest release from publisher X or publisher Z. The current businesses in the RPG INDUSTRY may have no interest in them as they aren't buying their product, but that still leaves them a part of the hobby... just not very active part of the hobby if they only play once a year.

Buying stuff is not necessary to be part of the hobby -- many of the players I've had over the years never bought anything from the industry other than some weird shaped dice and maybe a miniature to represent their character in the battle order.

Quote from: RandallS;313720I don't see what caring about new editions (or other games in general) has to do with the issue. People playing OD&D or some other out-of-print game are just as much a part of the RPG HOBBY as people playing the latest release from publisher X or publisher Z. The current businesses in the RPG INDUSTRY may have no interest in them as they aren't buying their product, but that still leaves them a part of the hobby... just not very active part of the hobby if they only play once a year.

I didn't say that OD&Ders were not part of the hobby, I said these guys were not even interested enough in the hobby to find out if anything new was released even for the edition they play, or what's going on with the hobby in any way.

QuoteBuying stuff is not necessary to be part of the hobby -- many of the players I've had over the years never bought anything from the industry other than some weird shaped dice and maybe a miniature to represent their character in the battle order.

Again, not talking about buying stuff.  I am talking about their interest level in the hobby.  These guys have no interest in anything concerning the hobby or other people who play the game.  To them, it's just like playing monopoly once a year.  It's a casual thing.  It does not even rise to the level of a hobby for them.

Not sure where we fall on that.

I presently have three regular players.  They don't read message boards.  They don't go into game stores.  They don't go to game websites.  They don't buy product.  Period.  However, they come over to my house (nearly) every Sunday afternoon and we role-play.  If I don't run a game, they don't play.

I check four RPG boards regularly (here, Pinnacle, RPGHaven, RPG.net) and three others with less regularity (Eden, Ravenloft/Fraternity of Shadows, Atomic Think Tank/Mutants & Masterminds).  I run my own, mostly dead, message board.  I buy and/or trade for new gaming product.  I follow industry news.  I insure, on multiple levels, that there is a game every week (by providing location, all the game stuff except dice, setting up the game).

I would, generally, call us a hardcore gamer leading a group of casual gamers.

Quote from: Werekoala;313703And I resent the terminology, too - just because I'm not playing WoW 12 hours a day and gearing up in all epic stuff and hitting level 80 by next Wednesday dosn't mean I don't take my gaming seriously.

I take my gaming extremely seriously.

This is why, as I establish a new group this week, our first session will be at a pub so all the players can get to know each-other.

Yes, we're going to meet at an inn and decide to adventure together.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;313747I take my gaming extremely seriously.

This is why, as I establish a new group this week, our first session will be at a pub so all the players can get to know each-other.

Yes, we're going to meet at an inn and decide to adventure together.

This is fucking brilliant. Playing at a pub with a "meeting at the inn" intro, I mean.

So you got your players and everything, heh? Ready to go?

We won't play, though that would be awesome. It's just that while I know most of the players, they haven't all met each-other. One can't start till next week anyway, as he's finishing off his own campaign, but he can meet for a quick drink beforehand.

Most people like to have the first session be character generation. That's fine if all the players know each-other. If not, then the first session should be something to get acquainted.

Because we are not casual gamers. We are extremely serious.