I find myself much more in agreement with David R than with Abysmal Maw.  While I do love a long-running campaign, and some of my fondest memories are from a four-year 7th Sea campaign because my character had a chance to grow and have epic adventures, on the other hand I've absolutely stellar RPG experiences in one-offs and mini-series, with a regular group and with ad-hoc groups at conventions, etc.  It all depends on the specific game, theme, mood, group, etc.

For the last eight years or so, my husband and I have had to schedule most of our campaigns (e.g., long-running, open-ended) and mini-series (e.g., 4-10 games, closed end-points) biweekly or semi-monthly.  It has worked fine for us with various groups.  We did not lose the continuity.  Right now, we're also involved in several very interesting mini-series that get scheduled in alternance on Monday nights; there too, we have kept the continuity and momentum without trouble, and the games have been very intense and satisfying.  The key is how dedicated and engaged the players and GM are.

Moreover, I know several gamers who do not like open-ended campaigns based on continuity; they prefer mini-series or episodic campaigns.  Some have trouble scheduling a regular gaming day on an on-going basis; others don't like to tangle with rambling, long-running plots, preferring self-contained adventures or short, TV-like story arcs.

I really dislike the idea of declaring one mode or style of play "more valuable."

Quote from: AnemoneI really dislike the idea of declaring one mode or style of play "more valuable."

As do I. It's like claiming open-ended TV serials are somehow better than self-contained dramas. Each has their value, and requires different expectations and input for enjoyment. The best gaming experiences I've had have occured across this spectrum, from the incredible one-shot horror scenario I played at a con' to the 5-year WFRP campaign I ran in my early twenties.

To be honest I've never really seen the divide as anything other than artificial when it comes to identifying fulfilling play. People have their preferences to be sure, but I'm the kind of person who enjoys the whole smorgasboard rather than limiting himself to one or two specific nibbles.

By 'more valuable' I am saying "what people actually want".

There is no accounting for taste. You can say what you like and prefer, and of course I can't deny that you actually prefer or like those things. Some people can obviously be just dandy with a gaming lifestyle that includes gaming based on convention experiences only.

But there's a phenomenon out there right now where 70% of the gaming population only cares about one game, and most of the remainder only buy games to collect and read.. Why is that?

That one game-- the one people actually play on a wide scale-- is not especially unique. I mean really.. D20 as a set of rules isn't actually that much different than Gurps or Hero or Savage Worlds, when you look at the mechanics. It's actually quite similar to Ars Magica.

Some people put forth these chucklesome geek conspiracy theories, but that's just idiocy. It's just sour grapes. There has to be an explanation, right?

So what it is that is at all different about D&D?

Well in terms of how most people actually play week in and week out.. it is kinda unique, really. "episodic"? "minseries"? Who has time for that? That stuff requires planning. You don't actually do much planning with an open ended campaign. The idea that there's a mound of prep is also a myth. With an open ended campaign, all prep is incremental and additive.

I say open ended campaigns is one of the things that people actually value and keep going back for. It's what makes people choose one game over another, system regardless.

The majority out there have regular gaming groups established that sort of go on week after week.. for months and sometimes years. I'm saying that leads to sustainability.

Sustainability is one factor that people value.

White Wolf games work on much the same level as D&D, for that matter. Might account for a strong #2 status.

Quote from: Abyssal MawSo what it is that is at all different about D&D?

A very valuable trademark and collection of recognizable IP combined with the sort of marketing that only two or three companies could even hope to achieve.

If by "sustainability" you mean "it's easy to find a D&D game to play" then sure.  That's really just the end product of 30 years of marketing and exposure to the public consciousness though.

Thanatos- Absolutely.

I'm thinking especially of the Mage campaigns I played in for 2 years during the 90s. There wasn't a storyline or anything. It was just our group, wandering around, getting in trouble, sometimes battling stuff.  

We did it for weeks.

Quote from: C.W.RichesonA very valuable trademark and collection of recognizable IP combined with the sort of marketing that only two or three companies could even hope to achieve.

If by "sustainability" you mean "it's easy to find a D&D game to play" then sure.  That's really just the end product of 30 years of marketing and exposure to the public consciousness though.

I don't buy it. Where is this marketing? Where are the billboards and television commercials? Where are the banner ads?

I mean, theyve had those in the past, but not recently.

I've been saturated with ads and promotions right here on this message board and elsewhere. And there is no lack of marketers for the other games that aren't doing so well. When I was talking to Malcolm Craig he mentioned he had 8 years of experience in marketing and advertising.

Marketing will only get you so far. It gets the word out. But people have to choose. Why do they choose as they do, time after time?

Consider the following two offers:

A) Come play a 4 session mini-arc of (whatever game)! It's about people discovering X and fighting against Y!

B) Come join our D&D campaign! We play on Thursday nights.


One of those has a much easier buy in.

So this thread isn't really about the advantages of long term play but rather about how D&D is the best game around or that most people play it. Gee, why didn't you just say so in your first post. I mean really there are advantages to long term play just as there are advantages to short term play. Most folks I suspect like long term play but some do both.

Really AM you should have posted this on the Pundit's forum. There diversity in gaming is frowned upon and you wouldn't have had to be subtle in your approach. "D&D rules and short term play suxxors" would have been a perfectly acceptable title...but then again it is a perfectly acceptable title on this forum too, it's just that I would have known where you were coming from ...or at least would have known better then to try to engage you in  conversation.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RSo this thread isn't really about the advantages of long term play but rather about how D&D is the best game around or that most people play it. Gee, why didn't you just say so in your first post. I mean really there are advantages to long term play just as there are advantages to short term play. Most folks I suspect like long term play but some do both.

Really AM you should have posted this on the Pundit's forum. There diversity in gaming is frowned upon and you wouldn't have had to be subtle in your approach. "D&D rules and short term play suxxors" would have been a perfectly acceptable title...but then again it is a perfectly acceptable title on this forum too, it's just that I would have known where you were coming from ...or at least would have known better then to try to engage you in  conversation.

Regards,
David R

Doesn't have to be D&D. I'm saying this is an exportable structure that will add value to any game.

Your'e fairly fucking obtuse sometimes, David.

Quote from: Abyssal MawYour'e fairly fucking obtuse sometimes, David.

Nah, you are really obvious.

Regards,
David R

Once upon a time, D&D was advertised in comics, on TV, it had its very own cartoon show, it appeared in all good book stores and toy shops... back in the 1980s (although I remember seeing ads for D&D products in comic books up until the early 1990s). Which, true, was a long time ago - but that's the most market exposure that any RPG has ever had, ever. Ask a member of the general public about "roleplaying games" and they'll probably talk about CRPGs. But if you ask them about "Dungeons & Dragons" they know what you are talking about.

Even if, outside of the gaming world, D&D's marketing has been reduced to word-of-mouth, it gets far more word-of-mouth promotion than any other game does. It has such a great advantage over its competitors that it will require something pretty fucking amazing to change that. Moreover, this is an advantage which has been maintained despite some completely nonsensical decisions on the parts of its various owners from time to time.

If there is a magic factor which gives D&D this glorious advantage, that has to have been around in the 1970s and 1980s too, and pretty much all of the games I possess from those time periods assume long-term campaign play will be the norm (Paranoia being a notable exception).

Quote from: David RNah, you are really obvious.

Regards,
David R

Well, you don't have to agree with me. I'm describing an actual phenomenon here.

PS: I think I'm also talking about World of Warcraft here as well. Let's just say it's WoW.

Same point stands.

Here, let me rephrase:

It's not what people play that makes a difference. It's how.

Quote from: Abyssal MawIt's not what people play that makes a difference. It's how.

Agreed.

Now will you agree that "how" people play is not a question of value but of taste and each style of play has it's own advantages/disadvantages.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RAgreed.

Now will you agree that "how" people play is not a question of value but of taste and each style of play has it's own advantages/disadvantages.

Regards,
David R

I'm sorry, David. This really isn't about making people feel good about what they like or dislike. It doesn't matter. People are going to like and dislike the things they do regardless, and they have every right to.

I'm talking about value, not taste.

Quote from: Abyssal MawI'm talking about value, not taste.

Fair enough AM, but just because you value long term play does not mean that short term play has no value and certainly not for the reasons you cited. I do admire your candour (well at least in your last few posts) and will leave it at that.

Regards,
David R