Quote from: Abyssal MawNo, not a specialized venue. All available venues. Anywhere it is allowed in, pretty much. Like if you had an "indie con", it wouldn't dominate there. Nor would it dominate at a model train convention or a dog-show. For the exact same reasons, really. You won't find any gamers at any of those.

A convention is a specialized venue. It is not playing a game in a public library, or at a game day, or in someone's house. The scope of a gaming convention is pretty much defined by the slots that people allocate to participating in events. The expectation going into a game convention is much, much different than getting together with your friends.

1) wrong. I thought I explained this. They're picking that because they know that their progress and effort is 'saved'. LG is not the same thing as a real long term campaign, obviously. But it is a unique and clever way to attach the long term structure onto a convention game format. And it looks like it worked.

It worked for conventions.

Quote2) Your'e just confused, surely. I've explained this like 4 times now. And I'm not talking about anything "sucking". I'm talking about a lack of value.

You have yet to explain how a finite campaign limits the opportunity for continuity. Because, in the end, it's all a matter of scope. See, I can use the same arguments that roleplaying adventures or scenarios with a set beginning and end lack value over ones that don't; or that game sessions that end lack value over ones that don't.

Quote4) The fact that they get it to work repeatedly takes us from hypothesis to thesis. It's the fucking proof in the pudding.

The only thing it proves is that Living Greyhawk's model works...for them. It absolutely does not prove that model is superior. To prove it, you'd need hard numbers of Living Greyhawk participants vs. non Living Greyhawk participants inside and outside of cons.

Oh, and a hypothesis becomes a theory. A thesis is a statement of an idea being researched.

Quote from: Abyssal MawPeople can like it and love it all they want.

However, it will never be very popular, no matter what.

The reason is value.

What are you talking about D&D or games built for long term campaign play or long term campaigns or people who play the same way as you? It's clear you are confusing popularity with value. So what you are sayin' is that folks who like short term play are in fact creating disposable stories. Folks here who like different games...check that...who may play the same games as you but play it differently are creating disposable stories. You are of course wrong and adopting a pretty Swine-ish/Forge -ish attitude.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RWhat are you talking about D&D or games built for long term campaign play or long term campaigns or people who play the same way as you? It's clear you are confusing popularity with value. So what you are sayin' is that folks who like short term play are in fact creating disposable stories. Folks here who like different games...check that...who may play the same games as you but play it differently are creating disposable stories. You are of course wrong and adopting a pretty Swine-ish/Forge -ish attitude.

Regards,
David R

Doesn't have to be D&D. It could be Rifts. Or, like I said, World of Warcraft. (I love how D&D still pisses people off!).

And I'm not confusing popularity with value, I'm saying popularity comes from value. You can't be popular without delivering what the people want. You got a better idea what the people want? Deliver that thing, and gain an audience.

The flimsy disposable story thing is an aside, really.

I'll say this:

I can remember the names of every single PC in every campaign I've ever DM'd. I  can tell you all their stories. Although I like to think the campaign was exciting and gripping and all of that? The real reason I remember this is because we played every week for campaigns that lasted for months.. sometimes over a year. And I've been on this schedule since 2000. Thats's 1/week minimum for 7 years. I'm pretty happy, all things considered!

So of course my campaign stories are more detailed than anyones short run thing. How could it be otherwise?

And finally the squeaking about "Thats a swinish attitude" just made me chuckle.

Quote from: Abyssal MawDoesn't have to be D&D. It could be Rifts. Or, like I said, World of Warcraft. (I love how D&D still pisses people off!).

And I'm not confusing popularity with value, I'm saying popularity comes from value. You can't be popular without delivering what the people want. You got a better idea what the people want? Deliver that thing, and gain an audience.

I think a more useful criteria for attaching "value" on a campaign regardless of system is the play experience and by experience I mean the whole package, the other players, the GM, how you as a player contribute to the game, interactions between players etc

The great strenght of D&D is it's versatility and by this I mean it accomadates various playstyles. To attach "value" to one style over the other is seriously missing the point...and I'd go so far as to include all the other games you mentioned.

QuoteI'll say this:

I can remember the names of every single PC in every campaign I've ever DM'd. I  can tell you all their stories. Although I like to think the campaign was exciting and gripping and all of that? The real reason I remember this is because we played every week for campaigns that lasted for months.. sometimes over a year. And I've been on this schedule since 2000. Thats's 1/week minimum for 7 years. I'm pretty happy, all things considered!

So of course my campaign stories are more detailed than anyones short run thing. How could it be otherwise?

Okay but you do realize that others feel the same way about short term play, right ? it just didn't take them so long to get attached to their characters. That's why I say, concentrate on the "experience" and not the playstyle.

QuoteAnd finally the squeaking about "Thats a swinish attitude" just made me chuckle.

We should really start flinging insults at each other. Our conversation is confusing the lurkers. After all we are supposed to be the land where moderation died....

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RI think a more useful criteria for attaching "value" on a campaign regardless of system is the play experience and by experience I mean the whole package, the other players, the GM, how you as a player contribute to the game, interactions between players etc

HOW is that more useful? The entire middle tier of roleplaying is disappearing at an astonishing rate.

It might feel good to extend this concept of value to everyone, but it doesn't explain anything. I kinda feel like I'm on to something here. I don't actually mind people disagreeing with me, either. I think it'll be true whether you beleive it or not.

Quote from: DavidROkay but you do realize that others feel the same way about short term play, right ? it just didn't take them so long to get attached to their characters. That's why I say, concentrate on the "experience" and not the playstyle.

I totally realize that the people who like doing it that way, like doing it that way. They see it as the absolute best way. I'm positive they 100% beleive there way is the best value. However, I also see them as irrelevant. They aren't the mass audience I am talking about.

Quote from: DavidRWe should really start flinging insults at each other. Our conversation is confusing the lurkers. After all we are supposed to be the land where moderation died....

Regards,
David R

I hope you realize I have no intent on flinging insults! I mean, I'm rude, sure. But this isn't about us. Plus, a little rudeness is good. If we were all too polite to truly disagree, we'd never accomplish anything but groupthink.

Quote from: Abyssal MawHOW is that more useful? The entire middle tier of roleplaying is disappearing at an astonishing rate.

What has this got to do with anything? We are talking about our gaming experience not the state of the industry.

QuoteIt might feel good to extend this concept of value to everyone, but it doesn't explain anything.

Actually it does. It could explain why people like various games. It could explain why people like specific games.  

QuoteI totally realize that the people who like doing it that way, like doing it that way. They see it as the absolute best way. I'm positive they 100% beleive there way is the best value. However, I also see them as irrelevant. They aren't the mass audience I am talking about.

I don't really know what you're talking about. You started off by saying that long term play has "value" and illustrated this with pretty dodgy examples, then decided you wanted to talk about how D&D does this very well and assuming everyone plays D&D the same way and now you're talking about the industry.

I get that you think the way how some gamers play is irrelevent. I get that you believe that the games they play are irrelevent, but you should have just said that in your OP.

Folks like D&D for a variety of reasons. Long term play is probably one of them. It's not the only reason. I don't think it's useful to think that games which are designed for long term play is the only way to go. Like I said there are many reasons for D&D's popularity, to concentrate on one and assume that it is it's major or core "value" is a mistake.

QuoteI hope you realize I have no intent on flinging insults! I mean, I'm rude, sure. But this isn't about us. Plus, a little rudeness is good. If we were all too polite to truly disagree, we'd never accomplish anything but groupthink.

AM I was trying to be humorous. I was commenting on the fact that our discussion so far has been relatively civil.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RWhat has this got to do with anything? We are talking about our gaming experience not the state of the industry.

Maybe thats why youv'e been so confused. I'm talking about what the majority of people actually care about. And everyone else not mattering.

Quote from: David RActually it does. It could explain why people like various games. It could explain why people like specific games.

This is a foolish thing to worry about. People as individuals like different things. There's no science to it, and there's no point to trying to predict what people want on an individual basis. I'm talking about large audiences.

Quote from: David RI don't really know what you're talking about. You started off by saying that long term play has "value" and illustrated this with pretty dodgy examples, then decided you wanted to talk about how D&D does this very well and assuming everyone plays D&D the same way and now you're talking about the industry.

Well, right now, D&D is the industry. If it's not D&D, chances are.. it's not the industry. But it doesn't have to be that way.

Quote from: Abyssal MawMaybe thats why youv'e been so confused. I'm talking about what the majority of people actually care about. And everyone else not mattering.

*shrug* You didn't frame the conversation this way at least not in your original post. It sort of drifted into this territory. As for everyone else not mattering well some designers have had so some success catering to those whose taste don't fall into the mainstream. I guess it depends on what your goals are and how much money you want to make.

QuoteThis is a foolish thing to worry about. People as individuals like different things. There's no science to it, and there's no point to trying to predict what people want on an individual basis. I'm talking about large audiences.

And I'm not convinved that long term campaigns or games that cater for it is the only way to go. I'm not a designer or know anything about the industry for that matter, but it seems to me that the appeal of popular games goes far beyond it's design feature of long term play. I think folks like these popular games for various reasons which are almost impossible to predict. Is long term campaign play a popular trend in all these popular games...perhaps...but I'm sure there's something more to it than just that.

QuoteWell, right now, D&D is the industry. If it's not D&D, chances are.. it's not the industry. But it doesn't have to be that way.

Yes it does.Because here's the thing. Folks like D&D for so many reasons. Even if they play other games I'm sure they play mainly D&D. Why is this? I have no idea. Maybe it's the genre. Maybe it's the system. Maybe it's NE. To try and design a game with the appeal of D&D is a foolish eneavour IMO. D&D has years of play and loyalty ahead of it's competitors. It's like someone trying to compete with WW for the goth games market. To me the best thing to do is find an area where gamers needs have yet to be satisfied and mine it for all it's worth. Who knows, you may find mainstream success this way then by trying to take on D&D

Last thing AM, this conversation has moved into industry talk, a lot of which I'm unfamiliar with. So, my participation ends here.

Regards,
David R