My best bronze age gaming has been with Mazes & Minotaurs.  It's very much Bronze Age via Harryhausen & Hollywood, but the greek myths and the pseudo-greek world is very accessible to players.  I am also phenomenally pleased by the system bits that add to the bronze age importance of the spear and shield.

I also had fun with Palladium's Valley of the Pharoahs RPG. I enjoyed the compactness of that setting. The entire "world" is Egypt and there is this single unified culture with tremendous depth and mystery.

Quote from: Thalaba;463873There have been way too many cool threads around here for me to remain a lurker any longer. This one is the straw that breaks the (strictly iron age) camel's back.

Awesome first post, Thalaba!  Welcome to the RPGSite!

Quote from: Thalaba;463873The bronze age is pretty close to my heart, having been a subject of study for several years, now. It covers about 1800 years and a wide area, so it can mean a lot of different things. I can easily see it represnting both beginnings and endings because there were so many collapses within the period. Personally, I'm most familiar with the BA in Mesopotamia, Anatolia, Syria, and Egypt, but certainly Mycenae, Crete, the Cyclades, Dilmun, Elam, The Indus Valley, BMAC, and beyond would all be good locations.

You can't swing a spiked bat around here without hitting a history geek, so you should feel right at home.  I am one of those dirty modernists myself (my specialization is the history of technology and the early Soviet period), but my first love was archeology and prehistory, so the Bronze Age is close to my heart too.

Quote from: Thalaba;463873For me, the BA doesn't represent elemental beginnings so much, though. Cities, bureaucracy, religion, warfare, mass production, colonization and so on were all invented before the bronze age. So for me, it's the chalcolithic period that represents 'beginnings' more than any other time. I see the early bronze age I and II as a time of myth and heroism, EBIII as a time time of the first tentative steps to empire - this, and every time after it, can be highly bureaucratic. The middle bronze age is a time of kingdoms learning to posture themselves, and of state vs nature (canal building, barbarian invasions, nomad vs settled conflicts). By the late bronze age we've already got the league of great nations, which pretty much then collapses upon itself - perfect for endings, of course. But there are both beginnings and endings all throughout, so I'd say just pick your theme, then pick the right time to develop that theme. The EBI sounds like the right time for what you describe.

I would agree that I am freely mixing and matching elements from the Chalcolithic and Early Bronze Age to produce the effect that I want.  I think that EBI is about right, at the end of the Uruk Period and the transition to more sophisticated political systems.  I am not sticking to strictly historical elements (although my players could hang with it being history geeks themselves) so I have a lot of leeway.  

I am looking at having fairly well-developed city states with full-blown ziggurats, trade and conquest, but no multi-city polities as of yet.  Formal mathematics and writing would be relatively new and have a mystical element to them.  Perhaps the differentiation between divine magic and wizardry would be the act of writing itself.

Quote from: Thalaba;463873In Mesopotamian belief, anyway, men are put on earth to serve the gods, who have a mysterious master plan. That master plan involves civilization, for sure, and the trappings of civilization are a great secret. There aren't really things that exist outside of the gods master plan, though, so the thought of men and civilization pushing back the dark like Christian missionaries doesn't quite ring true, for me. Even monsters are part of God's plan. Humbaba, for instance, was an appointed guardian, and most other lesser beings are the servant of one god or another (Anzu may be an exception).

This is where my modernism shows itself...I am thinking that the will of the gods and the interests of Man are not necessarily in sync, and this would be the beginning of the long process of Man's claiming power over the world from the gods.  It is a theme cheerfully stolen from Turtledove's novel "Between the Rivers", but you can read echos of it into the Gilgamesh tale if you try hard enough - Gilgamesh defies the gods quite a bit (Humbaba, the Bull of Heaven, even the quest for Eternal Life).  The gods have to be obeyed for practical reasons of their terrifying power, but Man is struggling to forge their own destiny in the world.

In the end it is likely a "modern" view of it, but I need something for players to hang their hat on to make the setting understandable and enjoyable for them.

Quote from: Thalaba;463873This part rings very true - ancestors were treated with respect and poured libations through the family home. Ghosts were the spirits of those who were not buried properly or who were neglected. The gods would be very aloof - minor divine beings and lesser gods would be invoked as intercessors to the higher ones. Although some, like Enki and Inanna, are more approachable, they are not communicated with directly, in most cases, though there are some exception in the myths (Gilgamesh, for instance, spurns Inanna's sexual advances). Most divine beings are the servants of gods, so there are no inherently evil beings, so to speak.

This is definitely the feel I am going for.  For most people they would never feel the direct touch of the gods, but their world would be filled with spirits and intercessions - rituals, totems, amulets.  It would be taken for granted, however, that the gods actually do live in the temples atop the ziggurats and that a PC cleric would certainly have directly felt the power of the divine.

The issue of the duality of good and evil is an interesting one.  It is mostly a product of later religious development, and so I agree that actual Mesopotamians would likely have seen the spiritual world in a very different light than us.  But Humbaba and the Bull of Heaven were "monsters" that Gilgamesh struggled with on behalf (sort of) of the people of the city.  Again, there is the possibility that the interests of the gods and of Man are not quite the same.

Quote from: Thalaba;463873This could work on several levels. The ruler, probably the En in this case, might have a dream. Or, the prophesy might have been related by a trusted diviner (which leaves an opening for using the diviner as a double-crossing agent), or delivered by an ecstatic. Personally, I think the diviner has the most scope for interesting scenarios. Historically, the EBI wasn't really a time of 'kings' as we think of them today - rule usually went to the En, who was more of a spiritual leader. Military affairs and the like were handled by the Lugal (Big Man), and over time the Lugal replaced the En as temporal leader, while the En became relegated to the temple. In a more mythological game, you've got more leeway, of course. Even Gilgamesh was subject to the will of the people - he consulted two separate councils before setting off on his Humbaba expedition. He was obviously a very willful leader, though, and seemed to get his way around town.

I think that I would cast the king in the Lugal role mostly to keep it in line with Gilgamesh.  Oh there would be a jealous high priest of course, and room for intrigue.  Perhaps the priests would shed few tears if the annoying hero with divine blood is taken out of the picture by divine retribution.  Maybe the people themselves have a very ambivalent view of the Great Hero, as well - having such a king can be a curse as well as a boon.  Gilgamesh was kind of a jackass to his people and he did bring down the divine retribution of the Bull of Heaven on the city through his egoistic rejection of Innana.

Maybe the people would prefer to keep a lower profile in a world full of vengeful gods!  And with the hero king stuck in the city, they wouldn't even get the breaks from his rowdy behavior afforded by his questing!

Quote from: Thalaba;463873My own BA fantasy campaign world is technologically bronze age and has many of the trappings, if you want inspiration in that regard. But it's inspired my many more later sources, too. It doesn't really cling to historical Mesopotamian political or religious structures, so it probably wouldn't help in that regard.

I'd still like to hear about it!

Quote from: Thalaba;463873Anyway, cool stuff. I'd like to see how this develops. Is there any particular reason you think that particular game is good for the setting, or do you just like the mechanics of it?

I don't think that it is particularly suited for the setting, but OD&D is flexible and fits like an old, comfortable shoe.  Everybody knows what to expect from it, and in my experience 90% of the time the system used doesn't matter that much if people are on the same page.

-TGA

Quote from: Cole;463876I feel you. While the bronze age Aegean cultures are more alien to us and more obscured by history than the classical culture that developed centuries later there is still more of a bridge.

Yeah, I think that I read too much of the later Greeks into the early Aegean than warranted, but there are the stirrings of our identity in there I think.  That is what makes it so accessible for gaming I suspect.

Quote from: Cole;463876But just speaking for myself an Egyptians game would be really awesome too, though and I would certainly take the chance to play in a Mesopotamian game. I'm just offering up a different perspective based on what I have run (and what I am more familiar with). When I think bronze age I suppose i jump to "bronze age collapse."

Dude, I have so been wanting to run an Egyptian-themed game since I was like 12.  Every time I have pitched it it has fallen flat.  One friend (when I was 12 in fact) ridiculed it as "Nubian Mercenaries in Hell".  Perhaps my presentation needed polishing!  Even our culture's obsession with the trappings of ancient Egypt aren't enough to convince players, apparently.

As an aside, I saw a documentary series a few years back on Egypt called "Ancient Egyptians" with some pretty kick ass recreations of court proceedings, religious skullduggery, and tomb robbing.  Huge treasure trove of adventure ideas!  

Quote from: Cole;463876It would be compelling to play, I'm sure. I had a campaign idea a few years back that never came to fruition that was set "in the seventh generation of man" that wasn't really a bronze age game in any real sense but maybe had a similar view of the supernatural. I will see if I can find my notes on it if you're interested or failing that try to reconstruct from memory.

I would love to hear more about your ideas on this.

Quote from: Cole;463876I find the sensibility of that ancient world or at least a cheap swords-and-sandals reflection of it really compelling for gaming so I think I often try to revisit different takes on it.

There is so much inspiration our there (Harryhausen has already been mentioned) for the sword & sandals feel!

Quote from: Cole;463876The last bronze game I ran was fundamentally ahistorical; the main featured societies (very) loosely reflected proto-etruscan, indus valley, a kind of "afro-celtic culture" since to my knowledge there wasn't really a subsaharan bronze age per se I created a kind of weird hybrid and on the fringes of the civilized world a kind of ancient korea since I wanted to create a "parallel universe" bronze age where I could take little known players and make them very fantastical. There were also psionic "Atlanteans" and several eccentric kinds of barbarian - a kind of bronze age swords & planets in a way.

Sounds very cool!  I think that what you describe would be a good approach to this kind of game without all of the historical baggage, but still having some of the familiar as grounding.  How did the players like it?  Was it enough of the familiar, or too much of the alien?  


-TGA

Welcome to theRPGsite, Thalaba!

RPGPundit

Quote from: LordVreeg;463879I read Jaynes back in 1980 the first time.  Been an influence forever.

I have never encountered Jaynes before.  Seems like a strange theory.  What did you think about it?

Quote from: LordVreeg;463879This is my secondary game system and setting.  The main one has over 1k pages in that wiki...but this one is interesting.  I enjoy on IRC using the direct messaging to give "lobal impressions'...god voices...of things that happen.  It as influenced every game, and the religious aspect and the power is incredible in terms of the rp...one might suggest we call on something primal.

That is a cool idea!  I would not like to have players staring at a laptop during the game, but having spirit voices via chat could be awesome!

-TGA

Quote from: silva;463888To me, it looks like this.

Thanks for reminding me that that game exists!  I found it by chance maybe a year ago and always meant to go back and check it out in more detail.  I am not sure that I could get it to run on my current laptop, but I have an older iBook that might do!


-TGA

For me it's strongly shaped by the Iliad and the Old Testament, both of which occur at the very tail end of the period, but which are the most vivid depictions of it I've read (mad love for Gilgamesh, but once Enkidu dies the story drags).

My Dawnlands setting is my attempt to merge the aesthetics of those sources (and several others) together with 4e to create a sword and sorcery, Bronze Age-influenced setting (though steel and iron do exist in the setting). I'm tempted to redo it as a MRQ2 setting sometime.

Edit: Yes I'm aware that I say it's a "medieval" setting in the first post of the Dawnlands thread. There was a lot of concept drift, especially since I was reading a ton of Glorantha stuff at the time.

Quote from: The Good Assyrian;464045Awesome first post, Thalaba!  Welcome to the RPGSite!

Quote from: RPGPundit;464086Welcome to theRPGsite, Thalaba!

RPGPundit

Thank you! I'm not a frequent poster, but I try to make it count when I do.

Quote from: The Good Assyrian;464045I am looking at having fairly well-developed city states with full-blown ziggurats, trade and conquest, but no multi-city polities as of yet.  Formal mathematics and writing would be relatively new and have a mystical element to them.  Perhaps the differentiation between divine magic and wizardry would be the act of writing itself.... The gods have to be obeyed for practical reasons of their terrifying power, but Man is struggling to forge their own destiny in the world.... For most people they would never feel the direct touch of the gods, but their world would be filled with spirits and intercessions - rituals, totems, amulets.  It would be taken for granted, however, that the gods actually do live in the temples atop the ziggurats and that a PC cleric would certainly have directly felt the power of the divine... there is the possibility that the interests of the gods and of Man are not quite the same... Maybe the people themselves have a very ambivalent view of the Great Hero, as well - having such a king can be a curse as well as a boon... Maybe the people would prefer to keep a lower profile in a world full of vengeful gods!  And with the hero king stuck in the city, they wouldn't even get the breaks from his rowdy behavior afforded by his questing!

I love it! Maybe each player is named with a god in mind ("Joy-of-Inanna", "Shamash-gave-an-heir", "Dumuzi-has-created-the-seed") and those gods make subtle appearances (as Enki does to Utnapishtim, speaking through the wall). Perhaps Enlil is restless once again, and want to kill off humanity, but the other gods are against this because they don't want to lose their servants.

Check out the old Anatolian texts, like the Anitta text and old Hittite texts - you might find something in those, too. Oh, and Clash's Outremer game has an interesting divination table in it. I didn't get a close look at it when I played the game last weekend, but it seems like it might be hugely useful for a setting like this.

Quote from: The Good Assyrian;464045I'd still like to hear about it!

My sig links to the log of our current campaign in that world. The previous campaign had a little more BA feel, but a lot of Howard/Lieber/Polo thrown into the mix. This one has other influences, and therefore a different flavour.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;464134(mad love for Gilgamesh, but once Enkidu dies the story drags).

You're on drugs! The part where Gilgamesh goes on his own personal quest to find his own immortality is by far the best part. He meets up with a bartender who gives him advices, finds the sole survivor of the flood (and his sole-survivor wife) who tell him he's an idiot, but take pity on him and give him a longevity plant, which he then loses to a snake while he's skinny dipping. He only discovers the true meaning of life when he gets home. How can you not love that?

Quote from: The Good Assyrian;464083One friend (when I was 12 in fact) ridiculed it as "Nubian Mercenaries in Hell".

See, that sounds like a good tagline to me!

Quote from: The Good Assyrian;464083I would love to hear more about your ideas on this.

Sure, I'll get back to you on that in a bit.

Quote from: The Good Assyrian;464083Sounds very cool!  I think that what you describe would be a good approach to this kind of game without all of the historical baggage, but still having some of the familiar as grounding.  How did the players like it?  Was it enough of the familiar, or too much of the alien?  

It worked out well; I think players can work with the familiar elements and find analogies better than they're sometimes given credit for, while the less familiar elements can become more familiar through play. Of course I am not trying to teach an archaeology lesson but the results were good enough to give it the right feel, I thought. Just things as simple linking to images of buildings and artifacts and such, I think, helped communicate some of the ideas.

Quote from: The Good Assyrian;464083"Nubian Mercenaries in Hell"

This reminds me of a campaign idea I've entertained for some time: The Anabasis Campaign. PCs as a ragtag bunch of survivors from a routed mercenary army, deep inside hostile territory, making a run for it, and passing through strange and unknown lands, peoples and dangers on the way out.

Quote from: Thalaba;463873There have been way too many cool threads around here for me to remain a lurker any longer. This one is the straw that breaks the (strictly iron age) camel's back. Many of the posters here will recognize me from other fora.
*snip*

Hello Thalaba!
Yeah, this is a great thread... thanks all!.

I definitely have aimed for a mediterranean feel, with Accis being one of a number of city states on a large sea.  Sort of a hellenstic set up, but with a lot of trade/traffic from other older civilizations.  It is not into any classical, enlightened period yet; I kept everything very mythic with a lot of superstition and ritual.  There are small pockets of learning just showing up, but they are fledglings.
I'm using a class-based system this time (which is rare for me), because I want a real differential between the common folk and the adventerous ones/heroic ones/mythic ones.

I even set up rules for a subset of NPCs who only gain experience in the presence of the protagonists; the companions to heroes.

Quote from: Thalaba;464154I love it! Maybe each player is named with a god in mind ("Joy-of-Inanna", "Shamash-gave-an-heir", "Dumuzi-has-created-the-seed") and those gods make subtle appearances (as Enki does to Utnapishtim, speaking through the wall). Perhaps Enlil is restless once again, and want to kill off humanity, but the other gods are against this because they don't want to lose their servants.

Good ideas!  I want to start the game at the lower-end of epic level challenges, but I could see using the restless Enlil idea as an overarching plot for the campaign that the players will eventually have to deal with when they reach higher level.

Quote from: Thalaba;464154Check out the old Anatolian texts, like the Anitta text and old Hittite texts - you might find something in those, too. Oh, and Clash's Outremer game has an interesting divination table in it. I didn't get a close look at it when I played the game last weekend, but it seems like it might be hugely useful for a setting like this.

I will check out those sources, and thanks for the tip on the divination table in Clash's Outremer game.  That is exactly the kind of suggestion I was hoping to get when I started the thread.

Quote from: Thalaba;464154My sig links to the log of our current campaign in that world. The previous campaign had a little more BA feel, but a lot of Howard/Lieber/Polo thrown into the mix. This one has other influences, and therefore a different flavour.

I just spent more than an hour reading your campaign log.  Really, really neat stuff there!  I would be proud if I could put something half as detailed together for my games!

Quote from: Thalaba;464154You're on drugs! The part where Gilgamesh goes on his own personal quest to find his own immortality is by far the best part. He meets up with a bartender who gives him advices, finds the sole survivor of the flood (and his sole-survivor wife) who tell him he's an idiot, but take pity on him and give him a longevity plant, which he then loses to a snake while he's skinny dipping. He only discovers the true meaning of life when he gets home. How can you not love that?

Gilgamesh got a lot of sound advice which he promptly ignored.  Epic heroes are kind of tools actually...  

-TGA

Quote from: Cole;464322See, that sounds like a good tagline to me!

I think so too now looking back on it, but the 12 year old me was crestfallen that my idea for a roleplaying game (I was designing my own from scratch of course) was treated with such scorn.  The pitch was that the PCs would be relative outsiders (ie Nubian mercs) and there was to be a big emphasis on the supernatural/tomb elements (hence "in hell").  

I still think it is a great idea and if I were to pitch it today I would wear the "Nubian mercenaries in Hell" tagline with pride!

Quote from: Cole;464322Sure, I'll get back to you on that in a bit.

Looking forward to it!

Quote from: Cole;464322It worked out well; I think players can work with the familiar elements and find analogies better than they're sometimes given credit for, while the less familiar elements can become more familiar through play. Of course I am not trying to teach an archaeology lesson but the results were good enough to give it the right feel, I thought. Just things as simple linking to images of buildings and artifacts and such, I think, helped communicate some of the ideas.

I asked because I am always torn on whether to run relatively straight history-based settings or go with "inspired by certain historicalish events".  I have done both successfully - I love Tekumel as my vague mish-mash of historical/weird elements kind of setting.  

I have had more luck with the more strictly historical games as far as player immersion, but that may just be the history geeks I play with.  With the more alien derivative settings I have usually had to start the players as outsiders and let them get used the the setting.  With the history stuff they usually jump right in.


-TGA

Quote from: The Butcher;464326This reminds me of a campaign idea I've entertained for some time: The Anabasis Campaign. PCs as a ragtag bunch of survivors from a routed mercenary army, deep inside hostile territory, making a run for it, and passing through strange and unknown lands, peoples and dangers on the way out.

That whole idea is so ripe for a RPG campaign to be based on it, it isn't funny.  I just wish I had all the time I needed to run all the cool campaign ideas that I come across.

Would you base your idea directly on Xenophon and make the PCs Greek or Greek-esque?  Play it relatively straight or have the strange and unknown lands be filled with the supernatural?


-TGA