So I am gearing up to a return to GMing after a hiatus (hobby time has mostly been miniature wargames of late) and after casting around with several options I am gravitating to the idea of Bronze Age fantasy. But what the hell does that really mean? I've got some snatches of what I think that entails - Gilgamesh, gods, first cities, etc - but I would love to hear what people have done with this. And is it a concept best confined to Mesopotamian sources, or do have people been inspired by the Egyptian or Greek Bronze Age as well?
I suppose I should start with what I think Bronze Age fantasy should feel like. Obviously it lacks steel weapons, but does that make Athas of Darksun fame a Bronze Age setting (I would classify it as post apoc myself)? No, I think that it has more to do with beginnings rather than endings, if you get my meaning. Of elemental, mythic beginnings. But how do you practically get that to come across in a RPG campaign?
As I mentioned, some of my inspiration is from epic literature, particularly the Epic of Gilgamesh. I taught it for 10 years so I have read it countless times and so it has been an anchor for my thoughts on this setting. History also is a large influence on my ideas, although I would not run a strictly historical campaign for reasons that should become apparent later. Also, there is a novel by Harry Turtledove called Between the Rivers (http://www.amazon.com/Between-Rivers-Harry-Turtledove/dp/0812545206) that has been a big inspiration for me.
So here are some of my random thoughts on the subject:
1. The world of cities and civilization is new and fragile. There are literally monsters everywhere in the darkness that is not illuminated by the flickering light of this new way of life. This could be simplified to Law vs. Chaos, but I think that is too simplistic. The PCs would probably represent the forces of good (as defined by civilization) fighting to push back the darkness to make humanity safe. There could certainly be some ambiguity on this point though, as with the character of Enkidu the wild man in the Gilgamesh tale.
2. The gods, spirits and ghosts would have a very real and everyday presence in people's lives. Taking a cue from the Turtledove novel I would want the PCs to interact with the supernatural almost constantly, but in small ways. An example from the novel is the presence of an ancestral ghost, who although full of annoying advice was also a useful source of info. As an aside, I found this review of the novel that touched on the bizarre notion of the bicameral mind and the development of consciousness (http://cscs.umich.edu/~crshalizi/reviews/between-the-rivers/). I think that I would reserve the truly useful supernatural interactions to clerical magic, but would use the small scale ones to provide flavor and small advantages.
3. The PCs would not be epic heroes nor city rulers like Gilgamesh, but would almost certainly have one such NPC as their patron. I had an inspiration last night abut how to make this structure work in a way that makes sense to the setting. I think that I will begin the game by having the hero king of their city being given a prophecy that he will be slain if he leaves the boundaries of the city and that he should release a dove (or whatever) and the first x (where x is the number of PCs) number of people that the birds alights on are selected by the gods and fate to be the city's heroes. This allows for the mythic hero as patron without overshadowing the PCs who are working their way up to that level of power, but allowing him to offer advice, resources, etc when they are in a bind.
I am not particularly interested in what systems would be best suited for this, as I will probably use Swords & Wizardry in any case. I am more interested in hearing about the elements of game play - characters, NPCs, adventures, etc. - that have the Bronze Age feel to them and have worked for you.
-TGA
I've thought a bit about it but never had a chance to run it.
re #1, I know it's not literally bronze age, but old Russian tales often give a sense of the smallness of civilization. Russian towns were separated by vast distances. In their stories, the forest is often the home of monsters or even a monsters itself. The same idea could be applied the mountains or desert or whatever in a time when developed areas account for a tiny percentage of the land. Each area of wilderness would have not just it's own monsters but it's own personality. The desert doesn't like it when you sleep facing south.
There are going to lots of uncivilized groups, not on the edges of the map, but right next door. I'd be tempted to throw in inspiration from Ibn Khaldun and REH and have different templates/starting abilities based on background. Civilized folk understand money, organization, and writing; uncivilized are hardier and have a stronger drive.
re #2, heroes should have the option of heroic ancestors - grandchild of a god, nephew of a hero, as a baby found walking across the lake, was saved from doom as a child three times by different ghosts or monsters. This affects their abilities. If known, it affects how people judge them. I think bronze age heroes should have the chance to be a bit larger than life, though still mortal and flawed.
There should probably be seers, portents, and things foretold, though not necessarily in the hands of PCs.
Serious armor should be rare due to lack of metal and weapon breakage should be a possibility due to flawed refinement methods - I seem to remember weapons often breaking at bad times in stories.
It looks like this (http://accisworldofbronze.pbworks.com/w/page/31914263/FrontPage).
And you can see it in action here (http://www.citadelofchaos.net/forum/showthread.php?tid=429).
Quote from: The Good Assyrian;463756So I am gearing up to a return to GMing after a hiatus (hobby time has mostly been miniature wargames of late) and after casting around with several options I am gravitating to the idea of Bronze Age fantasy. But what the hell does that really mean? I've got some snatches of what I think that entails - Gilgamesh, gods, first cities, etc - but I would love to hear what people have done with this. And is it a concept best confined to Mesopotamian sources, or do have people been inspired by the Egyptian or Greek Bronze Age as well?
I suppose I should start with what I think Bronze Age fantasy should feel like. Obviously it lacks steel weapons, but does that make Athas of Darksun fame a Bronze Age setting (I would classify it as post apoc myself)? No, I think that it has more to do with beginnings rather than endings, if you get my meaning. Of elemental, mythic beginnings. But how do you practically get that to come across in a RPG campaign?
As I mentioned, some of my inspiration is from epic literature, particularly the Epic of Gilgamesh. I taught it for 10 years so I have read it countless times and so it has been an anchor for my thoughts on this setting. History also is a large influence on my ideas, although I would not run a strictly historical campaign for reasons that should become apparent later. Also, there is a novel by Harry Turtledove called Between the Rivers (http://www.amazon.com/Between-Rivers-Harry-Turtledove/dp/0812545206) that has been a big inspiration for me.
So here are some of my random thoughts on the subject:
1. The world of cities and civilization is new and fragile. There are literally monsters everywhere in the darkness that is not illuminated by the flickering light of this new way of life. This could be simplified to Law vs. Chaos, but I think that is too simplistic. The PCs would probably represent the forces of good (as defined by civilization) fighting to push back the darkness to make humanity safe. There could certainly be some ambiguity on this point though, as with the character of Enkidu the wild man in the Gilgamesh tale.
2. The gods, spirits and ghosts would have a very real and everyday presence in people's lives. Taking a cue from the Turtledove novel I would want the PCs to interact with the supernatural almost constantly, but in small ways. An example from the novel is the presence of an ancestral ghost, who although full of annoying advice was also a useful source of info. As an aside, I found this review of the novel that touched on the bizarre notion of the bicameral mind and the development of consciousness (http://cscs.umich.edu/~crshalizi/reviews/between-the-rivers/). I think that I would reserve the truly useful supernatural interactions to clerical magic, but would use the small scale ones to provide flavor and small advantages.
3. The PCs would not be epic heroes nor city rulers like Gilgamesh, but would almost certainly have one such NPC as their patron. I had an inspiration last night abut how to make this structure work in a way that makes sense to the setting. I think that I will begin the game by having the hero king of their city being given a prophecy that he will be slain if he leaves the boundaries of the city and that he should release a dove (or whatever) and the first x (where x is the number of PCs) number of people that the birds alights on are selected by the gods and fate to be the city's heroes. This allows for the mythic hero as patron without overshadowing the PCs who are working their way up to that level of power, but allowing him to offer advice, resources, etc when they are in a bind.
I am not particularly interested in what systems would be best suited for this, as I will probably use Swords & Wizardry in any case. I am more interested in hearing about the elements of game play - characters, NPCs, adventures, etc. - that have the Bronze Age feel to them and have worked for you.
-TGA
My take on Bronze Age fantasy is a little different than yours; I think primarily in terms of the cultures of mycenae and crete, also the urnfield and terramare in europe on fringes. In part I think of it as being not about the beginning but about the
end of the beginning. There are great empires on the southern/eastern horizon that are beginning to grow sleepy and stumble in their weary age. The golden age of myth where Orion and Hercules drove back the monsters to allow for civilization is something remembered, but with some confusion and warriors and princes would claim the heritage of these past heroes who are now more cult objects than real figures.
And now is an age of exploration and brave enterprise. Few men will sail like this for a millennium if not two. PCs should have a chance to feel alive and very human as this is in a way the first age of mortal "heroes" not demigods. Meanwhile there is a dark age coming and the eye of history will begin to narrow - a volcano will smear the sky black, or the sons of hercules and the throng of bacchus will come down to sweep away the mortal realm that thought it could make its own way, or maybe the fire will begin to grow dim quickly for you, just as it already has waned in the empires you call decadent now. But either way this is the last chance to be remembered after you are gone as a paragon and not a potsherd.
As far as the supernatural I would include it but when it is in the hands of men and society have their always be a doubt where it is the hand of the gods or some arcane but mortal art. Supernatural creatures beyond civilized lands would speak of the gods more familiar but always with bias and self-aggrandizement - now is an age of man and there is jealousy and spite in their claims. But in the sacred precincts of the gods, especially far from the heart of the civilized realm, their power should be palpable and frightening, if still mysterious and nonexplicit. I think of forces like in The Willows by blackwood to use a somewhat modern analogy, or in the realms of stone age cultures where there is a question whether they are just men, more numinous men of a previous "migration" or outright elf-or-giant-like people.
Far and bold travel, either for sheer adventure (or profit), or in an attempt to either expand the civilized world, or reject it and try to walk backwards into the mythic age, would be a big source of adventures. They visit the yawning empires to the south and east, or travel to mythologized versions of other less known, fringe cultures like the nuragics in sardinia or something more exotic to them, like the Jomon of japan, which could be near or far on a map as though this is a great age of navigation if you went far enough it begins to become the Odyssey where distance and space might not mean the same that it used to. They could find the lands of giants, or of lotus eaters, or meet the oncoming throng of angered gods' bloody followers if they pushed the wrong way - maybe the campaign, if the time is nigh, could be the last flight against the oncoming wave and the PCs left to sail west and west until they meet the past lest they meet the future.
Just some ideas based on my experience with running bronze-fantasy in the past and speculation for the next time i revisit it.
Quote from: Cole;463789Far and bold travel, either for sheer adventure (or profit), or in an attempt to either expand the civilized world, or reject it and try to walk backwards into the mythic age, would be a big source of adventures. They visit the yawning empires to the south and east, or travel to mythologized versions of other less known, fringe cultures like the nuragics in sardinia or something more exotic to them, like the Jomon of japan, which could be near or far on a map as though this is a great age of navigation if you went far enough it begins to become the Odyssey where distance and space might not mean the same that it used to. They could find the lands of giants, or of lotus eaters, or meet the oncoming throng of angered gods' bloody followers if they pushed the wrong way - maybe the campaign, if the time is nigh, could be the last flight against the oncoming wave and the PCs left to sail west and west until they meet the past lest they meet the future.
Just some ideas based on my experience with running bronze-fantasy in the past and speculation for the next time i revisit it.
That's pretty much the path i'm taking with 400.
Quote from: One Horse Town;463791That's pretty much the path i'm taking with 400.
When is that drawing near to release? You can hardly go wrong with adding a healthy dose of Dunsany.
Quote from: Cole;463803When is that drawing near to release? You can hardly go wrong with adding a healthy dose of Dunsany.
Not anytime soon, i'm afraid.
Quote from: Nicephorus;463770I've thought a bit about it but never had a chance to run it.
Same here. To be honest, I am not 100% sure I will get payer buy in on this one, but hope springs eternal! There is a better chance of getting it if I can clearly communicate my proposal. Hence this thread!
Quote from: Nicephorus;463770re #1, I know it's not literally bronze age, but old Russian tales often give a sense of the smallness of civilization. Russian towns were separated by vast distances. In their stories, the forest is often the home of monsters or even a monsters itself. The same idea could be applied the mountains or desert or whatever in a time when developed areas account for a tiny percentage of the land. Each area of wilderness would have not just it's own monsters but it's own personality. The desert doesn't like it when you sleep facing south.
Excellent example of the feel I am looking for. I think that idea of being on an island of order on a sea of screaming chaos can be found in many RPG contexts. Not to derail the discussion, but you can even see this feel in certain sci-fi game settings (Traveller the New Era comes to mind, but RIFTS can be played for that effect too).
I love your idea of giving the land itself a personality. I think that fits very well, indeed. And the land can be an inimical force particularly to outsiders from another land!
Quote from: Nicephorus;463770There are going to lots of uncivilized groups, not on the edges of the map, but right next door. I'd be tempted to throw in inspiration from Ibn Khaldun and REH and have different templates/starting abilities based on background. Civilized folk understand money, organization, and writing; uncivilized are hardier and have a stronger drive.
I have been thinking about this idea human "races" that would differentiate people from different cultures/regions. Although I initially balked at the idea, I am warming up to it as it represents what I feel is how these groups would look at each other as distinctly different and strange. Now I just have to figure out exactly how that would work!
I am more likely than not going to use OD&D (starting at 3rd Level as suggested in another thread), so the baselines for differentiation is there. There may be one or two "civilized" cultures (analogs to the Sumerians and Akkadians) and multiple "barbarians" based on terrain type they inhabit and way of life. So mountain men, desert dwellers, etc. I would just have to sit down and work out the specifics.
Quote from: Nicephorus;463770re #2, heroes should have the option of heroic ancestors - grandchild of a god, nephew of a hero, as a baby found walking across the lake, was saved from doom as a child three times by different ghosts or monsters. This affects their abilities. If known, it affects how people judge them. I think bronze age heroes should have the chance to be a bit larger than life, though still mortal and flawed.
I like this, but would have to give its execution some thought. Maybe an ancestral spirit guide, or magic weapon would be in order too.
Quote from: Nicephorus;463770There should probably be seers, portents, and things foretold, though not necessarily in the hands of PCs.
I am totally down with this but I have concerns about how to involve the players in that without making them feel railroaded. I suppose you can make it vague enough, but then it loses its impact. Any ideas on how to handle that?
Quote from: Nicephorus;463770Serious armor should be rare due to lack of metal and weapon breakage should be a possibility due to flawed refinement methods - I seem to remember weapons often breaking at bad times in stories.
Hell yeah, they don't call it the Bronze Age for nothing! I would likely just limit armor and make anything metal hella expensive. Since I plan to use OD&D, it would be simple to say that weapons break on a natural 1, and weapons of softer material going up against harder material (say a bone or obsidian sword vs a bronze one, or any vs a magic or iron weapon) break on a 1-3.
-TGA
Quote from: StormBringer;463780It looks like this (http://accisworldofbronze.pbworks.com/w/page/31914263/FrontPage).
And you can see it in action here (http://www.citadelofchaos.net/forum/showthread.php?tid=429).
Nice stuff! I am mining it for ideas as we speak...
-TGA
Quote from: Cole;463789My take on Bronze Age fantasy is a little different than yours; I think primarily in terms of the cultures of mycenae and crete, also the urnfield and terramare in europe on fringes. In part I think of it as being not about the beginning but about the end of the beginning. There are great empires on the southern/eastern horizon that are beginning to grow sleepy and stumble in their weary age. The golden age of myth where Orion and Hercules drove back the monsters to allow for civilization is something remembered, but with some confusion and warriors and princes would claim the heritage of these past heroes who are now more cult objects than real figures.
And now is an age of exploration and brave enterprise. Few men will sail like this for a millennium if not two. PCs should have a chance to feel alive and very human as this is in a way the first age of mortal "heroes" not demigods. Meanwhile there is a dark age coming and the eye of history will begin to narrow - a volcano will smear the sky black, or the sons of hercules and the throng of bacchus will come down to sweep away the mortal realm that thought it could make its own way, or maybe the fire will begin to grow dim quickly for you, just as it already has waned in the empires you call decadent now. But either way this is the last chance to be remembered after you are gone as a paragon and not a potsherd.
That is a very beautifully expressed campaign idea, Cole. I am thinking more Mesopotamia, but if I can't convince my players on that then this is a solid idea. I *know* that they would get into that. Riffing on the ancient Greeks is so awesome because they are so much a part of us. The problem with Mesopotamia (or Egypt for that matter, which I have never been able to sell to a group) is that in so many ways they are so unlike us today. You can totally grok the Greeks, even the Greeks of the mythic stories.
Quote from: Cole;463789As far as the supernatural I would include it but when it is in the hands of men and society have their always be a doubt where it is the hand of the gods or some arcane but mortal art. Supernatural creatures beyond civilized lands would speak of the gods more familiar but always with bias and self-aggrandizement - now is an age of man and there is jealousy and spite in their claims. But in the sacred precincts of the gods, especially far from the heart of the civilized realm, their power should be palpable and frightening, if still mysterious and nonexplicit. I think of forces like in The Willows by blackwood to use a somewhat modern analogy, or in the realms of stone age cultures where there is a question whether they are just men, more numinous men of a previous "migration" or outright elf-or-giant-like people.
I am shooting for a more "in your face" approach to the supernatural in my idea. The PCs would be exposed to the supernatural on a practically daily basis, even if it was small interactions with spirits, ritual, totems, etc. I want that feel of raw, elemental power swirling around! Negotiating with spirits, worrying about offending the gods, and daily superstitions should all be part of the picture for that kind of setting.
Quote from: Cole;463789Far and bold travel, either for sheer adventure (or profit), or in an attempt to either expand the civilized world, or reject it and try to walk backwards into the mythic age, would be a big source of adventures. They visit the yawning empires to the south and east, or travel to mythologized versions of other less known, fringe cultures like the nuragics in sardinia or something more exotic to them, like the Jomon of japan, which could be near or far on a map as though this is a great age of navigation if you went far enough it begins to become the Odyssey where distance and space might not mean the same that it used to. They could find the lands of giants, or of lotus eaters, or meet the oncoming throng of angered gods' bloody followers if they pushed the wrong way - maybe the campaign, if the time is nigh, could be the last flight against the oncoming wave and the PCs left to sail west and west until they meet the past lest they meet the future.
Very, very cool stuff. Thanks!
Quote from: Cole;463789Just some ideas based on my experience with running bronze-fantasy in the past and speculation for the next time i revisit it.
Excellent ideas, all!
-TGA
Quote from: One Horse Town;463865Not anytime soon, i'm afraid.
That's a shame. I noticed the advert in your sig earlier and was going to ask the same question.
Only so many hours in the day, I know!
-TGA
There have been way too many cool threads around here for me to remain a lurker any longer. This one is the straw that breaks the (strictly iron age) camel's back. Many of the posters here will recognize me from other fora.
The bronze age is pretty close to my heart, having been a subject of study for several years, now. It covers about 1800 years and a wide area, so it can mean a lot of different things. I can easily see it represnting both beginnings and endings because there were so many collapses within the period. Personally, I'm most familiar with the BA in Mesopotamia, Anatolia, Syria, and Egypt, but certainly Mycenae, Crete, the Cyclades, Dilmun, Elam, The Indus Valley, BMAC, and beyond would all be good locations.
For me, the BA doesn't represent elemental beginnings so much, though. Cities, bureaucracy, religion, warfare, mass production, colonization and so on were all invented before the bronze age. So for me, it's the chalcolithic period that represents 'beginnings' more than any other time. I see the early bronze age I and II as a time of myth and heroism, EBIII as a time time of the first tentative steps to empire - this, and every time after it, can be highly bureaucratic. The middle bronze age is a time of kingdoms learning to posture themselves, and of state vs nature (canal building, barbarian invasions, nomad vs settled conflicts). By the late bronze age we've already got the league of great nations, which pretty much then collapses upon itself - perfect for endings, of course. But there are both beginnings and endings all throughout, so I'd say just pick your theme, then pick the right time to develop that theme. The EBI sounds like the right time for what you describe.
Quote from: The Good Assyrian;4637561. The world of cities and civilization is new and fragile. There are literally monsters everywhere in the darkness that is not illuminated by the flickering light of this new way of life. This could be simplified to Law vs. Chaos, but I think that is too simplistic. The PCs would probably represent the forces of good (as defined by civilization) fighting to push back the darkness to make humanity safe. There could certainly be some ambiguity on this point though, as with the character of Enkidu the wild man in the Gilgamesh tale.
In Mesopotamian belief, anyway, men are put on earth to serve the gods, who have a mysterious master plan. That master plan involves civilization, for sure, and the trappings of civilization are a great secret. There aren't really things that exist outside of the gods master plan, though, so the thought of men and civilization pushing back the dark like Christian missionaries doesn't quite ring true, for me. Even monsters are part of God's plan. Humbaba, for instance, was an appointed guardian, and most other lesser beings are the servant of one god or another (Anzu may be an exception).
Quote2. The gods, spirits and ghosts would have a very real and everyday presence in people's lives.
This part rings very true - ancestors were treated with respect and poured libations through the family home. Ghosts were the spirits of those who were not buried properly or who were neglected. The gods would be very aloof - minor divine beings and lesser gods would be invoked as intercessors to the higher ones. Although some, like Enki and Inanna, are more approachable, they are not communicated with directly, in most cases, though there are some exception in the myths (Gilgamesh, for instance, spurns Inanna's sexual advances). Most divine beings are the servants of gods, so there are no inherently evil beings, so to speak.
Quote3. The PCs would not be epic heroes nor city rulers like Gilgamesh, but would almost certainly have one such NPC as their patron. I had an inspiration last night abut how to make this structure work in a way that makes sense to the setting. I think that I will begin the game by having the hero king of their city being given a prophecy that he will be slain if he leaves the boundaries of the city and that he should release a dove (or whatever) and the first x (where x is the number of PCs) number of people that the birds alights on are selected by the gods and fate to be the city's heroes. This allows for the mythic hero as patron without overshadowing the PCs who are working their way up to that level of power, but allowing him to offer advice, resources, etc when they are in a bind.
This could work on several levels. The ruler, probably the En in this case, might have a dream. Or, the prophesy might have been related by a trusted diviner (which leaves an opening for using the diviner as a double-crossing agent), or delivered by an ecstatic. Personally, I think the diviner has the most scope for interesting scenarios. Historically, the EBI wasn't really a time of 'kings' as we think of them today - rule usually went to the En, who was more of a spiritual leader. Military affairs and the like were handled by the Lugal (Big Man), and over time the Lugal replaced the En as temporal leader, while the En became relegated to the temple. In a more mythological game, you've got more leeway, of course. Even Gilgamesh was subject to the will of the people - he consulted two separate councils before setting off on his Humbaba expedition. He was obviously a very willful leader, though, and seemed to get his way around town.
My own BA fantasy campaign world is technologically bronze age and has many of the trappings, if you want inspiration in that regard. But it's inspired my many more later sources, too. It doesn't really cling to historical Mesopotamian political or religious structures, so it probably wouldn't help in that regard.
Anyway, cool stuff. I'd like to see how this develops. Is there any particular reason you think that particular game is good for the setting, or do you just like the mechanics of it?
Quote from: The Good Assyrian;463870That is a very beautifully expressed campaign idea, Cole. I am thinking more Mesopotamia, but if I can't convince my players on that then this is a solid idea. I *know* that they would get into that. Riffing on the ancient Greeks is so awesome because they are so much a part of us. The problem with Mesopotamia (or Egypt for that matter, which I have never been able to sell to a group) is that in so many ways they are so unlike us today. You can totally grok the Greeks, even the Greeks of the mythic stories.
I feel you. While the bronze age Aegean cultures are more alien to us and more obscured by history than the classical culture that developed centuries later there is still more of a bridge.
But just speaking for myself an Egyptians game would be really awesome too, though and I would certainly take the chance to play in a Mesopotamian game. I'm just offering up a different perspective based on what I have run (and what I am more familiar with). When I think bronze age I suppose i jump to "bronze age collapse."
Quote from: The Good Assyrian;463870I am shooting for a more "in your face" approach to the supernatural in my idea. The PCs would be exposed to the supernatural on a practically daily basis, even if it was small interactions with spirits, ritual, totems, etc. I want that feel of raw, elemental power swirling around! Negotiating with spirits, worrying about offending the gods, and daily superstitions should all be part of the picture for that kind of setting.
It would be compelling to play, I'm sure. I had a campaign idea a few years back that never came to fruition that was set "in the seventh generation of man" that wasn't really a bronze age game in any real sense but maybe had a similar view of the supernatural. I will see if I can find my notes on it if you're interested or failing that try to reconstruct from memory.
Quote from: The Good Assyrian;463870Excellent ideas, all!
Thanks very much, I appreciate the kind words.
I find the sensibility of that ancient world or at least a cheap swords-and-sandals reflection of it really compelling for gaming so I think I often try to revisit different takes on it.
The last bronze game I ran was fundamentally ahistorical; the main featured societies (very) loosely reflected proto-etruscan, indus valley, a kind of "afro-celtic culture" since to my knowledge there wasn't really a subsaharan bronze age per se I created a kind of weird hybrid and on the fringes of the civilized world a kind of ancient korea since I wanted to create a "parallel universe" bronze age where I could take little known players and make them very fantastical. There were also psionic "Atlanteans" and several eccentric kinds of barbarian - a kind of bronze age swords & planets in a way.
Quote from: StormBringer;463780It looks like this (http://accisworldofbronze.pbworks.com/w/page/31914263/FrontPage).
And you can see it in action here (http://www.citadelofchaos.net/forum/showthread.php?tid=429).
I read Jaynes back in 1980 the first time. Been an influence forever.
This is my secondary game system and setting. The main one has over 1k pages in that wiki...but this one is interesting. I enjoy on IRC using the direct messaging to give "lobal impressions'...god voices...of things that happen. It as influenced every game, and the religious aspect and the power is incredible in terms of the rp...one might suggest we call on something primal.
QuoteBronze Age Fantasy - What does it look like to you?
To me, it looks like this (http://a-sharp.com/kodp/#awards).
My best bronze age gaming has been with Mazes & Minotaurs. It's very much Bronze Age via Harryhausen & Hollywood, but the greek myths and the pseudo-greek world is very accessible to players. I am also phenomenally pleased by the system bits that add to the bronze age importance of the spear and shield.
I also had fun with Palladium's Valley of the Pharoahs RPG. I enjoyed the compactness of that setting. The entire "world" is Egypt and there is this single unified culture with tremendous depth and mystery.
Quote from: Thalaba;463873There have been way too many cool threads around here for me to remain a lurker any longer. This one is the straw that breaks the (strictly iron age) camel's back.
Awesome first post, Thalaba! Welcome to the RPGSite!
Quote from: Thalaba;463873The bronze age is pretty close to my heart, having been a subject of study for several years, now. It covers about 1800 years and a wide area, so it can mean a lot of different things. I can easily see it represnting both beginnings and endings because there were so many collapses within the period. Personally, I'm most familiar with the BA in Mesopotamia, Anatolia, Syria, and Egypt, but certainly Mycenae, Crete, the Cyclades, Dilmun, Elam, The Indus Valley, BMAC, and beyond would all be good locations.
You can't swing a spiked bat around here without hitting a history geek, so you should feel right at home. I am one of those dirty modernists myself (my specialization is the history of technology and the early Soviet period), but my first love was archeology and prehistory, so the Bronze Age is close to my heart too.
Quote from: Thalaba;463873For me, the BA doesn't represent elemental beginnings so much, though. Cities, bureaucracy, religion, warfare, mass production, colonization and so on were all invented before the bronze age. So for me, it's the chalcolithic period that represents 'beginnings' more than any other time. I see the early bronze age I and II as a time of myth and heroism, EBIII as a time time of the first tentative steps to empire - this, and every time after it, can be highly bureaucratic. The middle bronze age is a time of kingdoms learning to posture themselves, and of state vs nature (canal building, barbarian invasions, nomad vs settled conflicts). By the late bronze age we've already got the league of great nations, which pretty much then collapses upon itself - perfect for endings, of course. But there are both beginnings and endings all throughout, so I'd say just pick your theme, then pick the right time to develop that theme. The EBI sounds like the right time for what you describe.
I would agree that I am freely mixing and matching elements from the Chalcolithic and Early Bronze Age to produce the effect that I want. I think that EBI is about right, at the end of the Uruk Period and the transition to more sophisticated political systems. I am not sticking to strictly historical elements (although my players could hang with it being history geeks themselves) so I have a lot of leeway.
I am looking at having fairly well-developed city states with full-blown ziggurats, trade and conquest, but no multi-city polities as of yet. Formal mathematics and writing would be relatively new and have a mystical element to them. Perhaps the differentiation between divine magic and wizardry would be the act of writing itself.
Quote from: Thalaba;463873In Mesopotamian belief, anyway, men are put on earth to serve the gods, who have a mysterious master plan. That master plan involves civilization, for sure, and the trappings of civilization are a great secret. There aren't really things that exist outside of the gods master plan, though, so the thought of men and civilization pushing back the dark like Christian missionaries doesn't quite ring true, for me. Even monsters are part of God's plan. Humbaba, for instance, was an appointed guardian, and most other lesser beings are the servant of one god or another (Anzu may be an exception).
This is where my modernism shows itself...I am thinking that the will of the gods and the interests of Man are not necessarily in sync, and this would be the beginning of the long process of Man's claiming power over the world from the gods. It is a theme cheerfully stolen from Turtledove's novel "Between the Rivers", but you can read echos of it into the Gilgamesh tale if you try hard enough - Gilgamesh defies the gods quite a bit (Humbaba, the Bull of Heaven, even the quest for Eternal Life). The gods have to be obeyed for practical reasons of their terrifying power, but Man is struggling to forge their own destiny in the world.
In the end it is likely a "modern" view of it, but I need something for players to hang their hat on to make the setting understandable and enjoyable for them.
Quote from: Thalaba;463873This part rings very true - ancestors were treated with respect and poured libations through the family home. Ghosts were the spirits of those who were not buried properly or who were neglected. The gods would be very aloof - minor divine beings and lesser gods would be invoked as intercessors to the higher ones. Although some, like Enki and Inanna, are more approachable, they are not communicated with directly, in most cases, though there are some exception in the myths (Gilgamesh, for instance, spurns Inanna's sexual advances). Most divine beings are the servants of gods, so there are no inherently evil beings, so to speak.
This is definitely the feel I am going for. For most people they would never feel the direct touch of the gods, but their world would be filled with spirits and intercessions - rituals, totems, amulets. It would be taken for granted, however, that the gods actually do live in the temples atop the ziggurats and that a PC cleric would certainly have directly felt the power of the divine.
The issue of the duality of good and evil is an interesting one. It is mostly a product of later religious development, and so I agree that actual Mesopotamians would likely have seen the spiritual world in a very different light than us. But Humbaba and the Bull of Heaven were "monsters" that Gilgamesh struggled with on behalf (sort of) of the people of the city. Again, there is the possibility that the interests of the gods and of Man are not quite the same.
Quote from: Thalaba;463873This could work on several levels. The ruler, probably the En in this case, might have a dream. Or, the prophesy might have been related by a trusted diviner (which leaves an opening for using the diviner as a double-crossing agent), or delivered by an ecstatic. Personally, I think the diviner has the most scope for interesting scenarios. Historically, the EBI wasn't really a time of 'kings' as we think of them today - rule usually went to the En, who was more of a spiritual leader. Military affairs and the like were handled by the Lugal (Big Man), and over time the Lugal replaced the En as temporal leader, while the En became relegated to the temple. In a more mythological game, you've got more leeway, of course. Even Gilgamesh was subject to the will of the people - he consulted two separate councils before setting off on his Humbaba expedition. He was obviously a very willful leader, though, and seemed to get his way around town.
I think that I would cast the king in the Lugal role mostly to keep it in line with Gilgamesh. Oh there would be a jealous high priest of course, and room for intrigue. Perhaps the priests would shed few tears if the annoying hero with divine blood is taken out of the picture by divine retribution. Maybe the people themselves have a very ambivalent view of the Great Hero, as well - having such a king can be a curse as well as a boon. Gilgamesh was kind of a jackass to his people and he did bring down the divine retribution of the Bull of Heaven on the city through his egoistic rejection of Innana.
Maybe the people would prefer to keep a lower profile in a world full of vengeful gods! And with the hero king stuck in the city, they wouldn't even get the breaks from his rowdy behavior afforded by his questing!
Quote from: Thalaba;463873My own BA fantasy campaign world is technologically bronze age and has many of the trappings, if you want inspiration in that regard. But it's inspired my many more later sources, too. It doesn't really cling to historical Mesopotamian political or religious structures, so it probably wouldn't help in that regard.
I'd still like to hear about it!
Quote from: Thalaba;463873Anyway, cool stuff. I'd like to see how this develops. Is there any particular reason you think that particular game is good for the setting, or do you just like the mechanics of it?
I don't think that it is particularly suited for the setting, but OD&D is flexible and fits like an old, comfortable shoe. Everybody knows what to expect from it, and in my experience 90% of the time the system used doesn't matter that much if people are on the same page.
-TGA
Quote from: Cole;463876I feel you. While the bronze age Aegean cultures are more alien to us and more obscured by history than the classical culture that developed centuries later there is still more of a bridge.
Yeah, I think that I read too much of the later Greeks into the early Aegean than warranted, but there are the stirrings of our identity in there I think. That is what makes it so accessible for gaming I suspect.
Quote from: Cole;463876But just speaking for myself an Egyptians game would be really awesome too, though and I would certainly take the chance to play in a Mesopotamian game. I'm just offering up a different perspective based on what I have run (and what I am more familiar with). When I think bronze age I suppose i jump to "bronze age collapse."
Dude, I have so been wanting to run an Egyptian-themed game since I was like 12. Every time I have pitched it it has fallen flat. One friend (when I was 12 in fact) ridiculed it as "Nubian Mercenaries in Hell". Perhaps my presentation needed polishing! Even our culture's obsession with the trappings of ancient Egypt aren't enough to convince players, apparently.
As an aside, I saw a documentary series a few years back on Egypt called "Ancient Egyptians" with some pretty kick ass recreations of court proceedings, religious skullduggery, and tomb robbing. Huge treasure trove of adventure ideas!
Quote from: Cole;463876It would be compelling to play, I'm sure. I had a campaign idea a few years back that never came to fruition that was set "in the seventh generation of man" that wasn't really a bronze age game in any real sense but maybe had a similar view of the supernatural. I will see if I can find my notes on it if you're interested or failing that try to reconstruct from memory.
I would love to hear more about your ideas on this.
Quote from: Cole;463876I find the sensibility of that ancient world or at least a cheap swords-and-sandals reflection of it really compelling for gaming so I think I often try to revisit different takes on it.
There is so much inspiration our there (Harryhausen has already been mentioned) for the sword & sandals feel!
Quote from: Cole;463876The last bronze game I ran was fundamentally ahistorical; the main featured societies (very) loosely reflected proto-etruscan, indus valley, a kind of "afro-celtic culture" since to my knowledge there wasn't really a subsaharan bronze age per se I created a kind of weird hybrid and on the fringes of the civilized world a kind of ancient korea since I wanted to create a "parallel universe" bronze age where I could take little known players and make them very fantastical. There were also psionic "Atlanteans" and several eccentric kinds of barbarian - a kind of bronze age swords & planets in a way.
Sounds very cool! I think that what you describe would be a good approach to this kind of game without all of the historical baggage, but still having some of the familiar as grounding. How did the players like it? Was it enough of the familiar, or too much of the alien?
-TGA
Welcome to theRPGsite, Thalaba!
RPGPundit
Quote from: LordVreeg;463879I read Jaynes back in 1980 the first time. Been an influence forever.
I have never encountered Jaynes before. Seems like a strange theory. What did you think about it?
Quote from: LordVreeg;463879This is my secondary game system and setting. The main one has over 1k pages in that wiki...but this one is interesting. I enjoy on IRC using the direct messaging to give "lobal impressions'...god voices...of things that happen. It as influenced every game, and the religious aspect and the power is incredible in terms of the rp...one might suggest we call on something primal.
That is a cool idea! I would not like to have players staring at a laptop during the game, but having spirit voices via chat could be awesome!
-TGA
Quote from: silva;463888To me, it looks like this (http://a-sharp.com/kodp/#awards).
Thanks for reminding me that that game exists! I found it by chance maybe a year ago and always meant to go back and check it out in more detail. I am not sure that I could get it to run on my current laptop, but I have an older iBook that might do!
-TGA
For me it's strongly shaped by the Iliad and the Old Testament, both of which occur at the very tail end of the period, but which are the most vivid depictions of it I've read (mad love for Gilgamesh, but once Enkidu dies the story drags).
My Dawnlands (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=8875) setting is my attempt to merge the aesthetics of those sources (and several others) together with 4e to create a sword and sorcery, Bronze Age-influenced setting (though steel and iron do exist in the setting). I'm tempted to redo it as a MRQ2 setting sometime.
Edit: Yes I'm aware that I say it's a "medieval" setting in the first post of the Dawnlands thread. There was a lot of concept drift, especially since I was reading a ton of Glorantha stuff at the time.
Quote from: The Good Assyrian;464045Awesome first post, Thalaba! Welcome to the RPGSite!
Quote from: RPGPundit;464086Welcome to theRPGsite, Thalaba!
RPGPundit
Thank you! I'm not a frequent poster, but I try to make it count when I do.
Quote from: The Good Assyrian;464045I am looking at having fairly well-developed city states with full-blown ziggurats, trade and conquest, but no multi-city polities as of yet. Formal mathematics and writing would be relatively new and have a mystical element to them. Perhaps the differentiation between divine magic and wizardry would be the act of writing itself.... The gods have to be obeyed for practical reasons of their terrifying power, but Man is struggling to forge their own destiny in the world.... For most people they would never feel the direct touch of the gods, but their world would be filled with spirits and intercessions - rituals, totems, amulets. It would be taken for granted, however, that the gods actually do live in the temples atop the ziggurats and that a PC cleric would certainly have directly felt the power of the divine... there is the possibility that the interests of the gods and of Man are not quite the same... Maybe the people themselves have a very ambivalent view of the Great Hero, as well - having such a king can be a curse as well as a boon... Maybe the people would prefer to keep a lower profile in a world full of vengeful gods! And with the hero king stuck in the city, they wouldn't even get the breaks from his rowdy behavior afforded by his questing!
I love it! Maybe each player is named with a god in mind ("Joy-of-Inanna", "Shamash-gave-an-heir", "Dumuzi-has-created-the-seed") and those gods make subtle appearances (as Enki does to Utnapishtim, speaking through the wall). Perhaps Enlil is restless once again, and want to kill off humanity, but the other gods are against this because they don't want to lose their servants.
Check out the old Anatolian texts, like the Anitta text and old Hittite texts - you might find something in those, too. Oh, and Clash's Outremer game has an interesting divination table in it. I didn't get a close look at it when I played the game last weekend, but it seems like it might be hugely useful for a setting like this.
Quote from: The Good Assyrian;464045I'd still like to hear about it!
My sig links to the log of our current campaign in that world. The previous campaign had a little more BA feel, but a lot of Howard/Lieber/Polo thrown into the mix. This one has other influences, and therefore a different flavour.
Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;464134(mad love for Gilgamesh, but once Enkidu dies the story drags).
You're on drugs! ;) The part where Gilgamesh goes on his own personal quest to find his own immortality is by far the best part. He meets up with a bartender who gives him advices, finds the sole survivor of the flood (and his sole-survivor wife) who tell him he's an idiot, but take pity on him and give him a longevity plant, which he then loses to a snake while he's skinny dipping. He only discovers the true meaning of life when he gets home. How can you not love that?
Quote from: The Good Assyrian;464083One friend (when I was 12 in fact) ridiculed it as "Nubian Mercenaries in Hell".
See, that sounds like a good tagline to me!
Quote from: The Good Assyrian;464083I would love to hear more about your ideas on this.
Sure, I'll get back to you on that in a bit.
Quote from: The Good Assyrian;464083Sounds very cool! I think that what you describe would be a good approach to this kind of game without all of the historical baggage, but still having some of the familiar as grounding. How did the players like it? Was it enough of the familiar, or too much of the alien?
It worked out well; I think players can work with the familiar elements and find analogies better than they're sometimes given credit for, while the less familiar elements can become more familiar through play. Of course I am not trying to teach an archaeology lesson but the results were good enough to give it the right feel, I thought. Just things as simple linking to images of buildings and artifacts and such, I think, helped communicate some of the ideas.
Quote from: The Good Assyrian;464083"Nubian Mercenaries in Hell"
This reminds me of a campaign idea I've entertained for some time: The Anabasis Campaign. PCs as a ragtag bunch of survivors from a routed mercenary army, deep inside hostile territory, making a run for it, and passing through strange and unknown lands, peoples and dangers on the way out.
Quote from: Thalaba;463873There have been way too many cool threads around here for me to remain a lurker any longer. This one is the straw that breaks the (strictly iron age) camel's back. Many of the posters here will recognize me from other fora.
*snip*
Hello Thalaba!
Yeah, this is a great thread... thanks all!.:)
I definitely have aimed for a mediterranean feel, with Accis being one of a number of city states on a large sea. Sort of a hellenstic set up, but with a lot of trade/traffic from other older civilizations. It is not into any classical, enlightened period yet; I kept everything very mythic with a lot of superstition and ritual. There are small pockets of learning just showing up, but they are fledglings.
I'm using a class-based system this time (which is rare for me), because I want a real differential between the common folk and the adventerous ones/heroic ones/mythic ones.
I even set up rules for a subset of NPCs who only gain experience in the presence of the protagonists; the companions to heroes.
Quote from: Thalaba;464154I love it! Maybe each player is named with a god in mind ("Joy-of-Inanna", "Shamash-gave-an-heir", "Dumuzi-has-created-the-seed") and those gods make subtle appearances (as Enki does to Utnapishtim, speaking through the wall). Perhaps Enlil is restless once again, and want to kill off humanity, but the other gods are against this because they don't want to lose their servants.
Good ideas! I want to start the game at the lower-end of epic level challenges, but I could see using the restless Enlil idea as an overarching plot for the campaign that the players will eventually have to deal with when they reach higher level.
Quote from: Thalaba;464154Check out the old Anatolian texts, like the Anitta text and old Hittite texts - you might find something in those, too. Oh, and Clash's Outremer game has an interesting divination table in it. I didn't get a close look at it when I played the game last weekend, but it seems like it might be hugely useful for a setting like this.
I will check out those sources, and thanks for the tip on the divination table in Clash's Outremer game. That is exactly the kind of suggestion I was hoping to get when I started the thread.
Quote from: Thalaba;464154My sig links to the log of our current campaign in that world. The previous campaign had a little more BA feel, but a lot of Howard/Lieber/Polo thrown into the mix. This one has other influences, and therefore a different flavour.
I just spent more than an hour reading your campaign log. Really, really neat stuff there! I would be proud if I could put something half as detailed together for my games!
Quote from: Thalaba;464154You're on drugs! ;) The part where Gilgamesh goes on his own personal quest to find his own immortality is by far the best part. He meets up with a bartender who gives him advices, finds the sole survivor of the flood (and his sole-survivor wife) who tell him he's an idiot, but take pity on him and give him a longevity plant, which he then loses to a snake while he's skinny dipping. He only discovers the true meaning of life when he gets home. How can you not love that?
Gilgamesh got a lot of sound advice which he promptly ignored. Epic heroes are kind of tools actually... :)
-TGA
Quote from: Cole;464322See, that sounds like a good tagline to me!
I think so too now looking back on it, but the 12 year old me was crestfallen that my idea for a roleplaying game (I was designing my own from scratch of course) was treated with such scorn. The pitch was that the PCs would be relative outsiders (ie Nubian mercs) and there was to be a big emphasis on the supernatural/tomb elements (hence "in hell").
I still think it is a great idea and if I were to pitch it today I would wear the "Nubian mercenaries in Hell" tagline with pride!
Quote from: Cole;464322Sure, I'll get back to you on that in a bit.
Looking forward to it!
Quote from: Cole;464322It worked out well; I think players can work with the familiar elements and find analogies better than they're sometimes given credit for, while the less familiar elements can become more familiar through play. Of course I am not trying to teach an archaeology lesson but the results were good enough to give it the right feel, I thought. Just things as simple linking to images of buildings and artifacts and such, I think, helped communicate some of the ideas.
I asked because I am always torn on whether to run relatively straight history-based settings or go with "inspired by certain historicalish events". I have done both successfully - I love Tekumel as my vague mish-mash of historical/weird elements kind of setting.
I have had more luck with the more strictly historical games as far as player immersion, but that may just be the history geeks I play with. With the more alien derivative settings I have usually had to start the players as outsiders and let them get used the the setting. With the history stuff they usually jump right in.
-TGA
Quote from: The Butcher;464326This reminds me of a campaign idea I've entertained for some time: The Anabasis Campaign. PCs as a ragtag bunch of survivors from a routed mercenary army, deep inside hostile territory, making a run for it, and passing through strange and unknown lands, peoples and dangers on the way out.
That whole idea is so ripe for a RPG campaign to be based on it, it isn't funny. I just wish I had all the time I needed to run all the cool campaign ideas that I come across.
Would you base your idea directly on Xenophon and make the PCs Greek or Greek-esque? Play it relatively straight or have the strange and unknown lands be filled with the supernatural?
-TGA
Quote from: Spinachcat;463896I also had fun with Palladium's Valley of the Pharoahs RPG. I enjoyed the compactness of that setting. The entire "world" is Egypt and there is this single unified culture with tremendous depth and mystery.
As an aside, since the conversation has veered towards gaming in ancient Egyptian inspired settings, I recalled that "Valley of the Pharaohs" had at one time been available for free (legitimate) download. Looks like it is now on DriveThruRPG.com for $6. A nice game and well worth that.
-TGA
Quote from: The Good Assyrian;464468I just spent more than an hour reading your campaign log. Really, really neat stuff there! I would be proud if I could put something half as detailed together for my games!
Thanks! :D I update it once a week, sometime between Friday and Wednesday (Thursday is game night). No session this week, so I'll be posting on some aspect of campaign background (Gudaean religion and the origin tale, I think) as a filler - probably on the weekend.
Quote from: The Good Assyrian;464468Gilgamesh got a lot of sound advice which he promptly ignored.
One day a document will be discovered that reveals that Gilagmesh was actually just a character run by a player in an ancient roleplaying game. :p
Valley of the Pharaohs is the one Palladium RPG I've never even as much as seen. Though I've only heard good things.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;464523Valley of the Pharaohs is the one Palladium RPG I've never even as much as seen. Though I've only heard good things.
RPGPundit
It's available online, legitimately, for free. I can send you a copy if you PM me, or a link.
It's pretty good actually going on a read rather than play through.
Quote from: Thalaba;464501Thanks! :D I update it once a week, sometime between Friday and Wednesday (Thursday is game night). No session this week, so I'll be posting on some aspect of campaign background (Gudaean religion and the origin tale, I think) as a filler - probably on the weekend.
I will definitely be stopping in occasionally to keep up with it.
Quote from: Thalaba;464501One day a document will be discovered that reveals that Gilagmesh was actually just a character run by a player in an ancient roleplaying game. :p
That one made me laugh! The story makes so much more sense now!
GM: "You do what?"
Gilgamesh: "You heard me. Hey what are the rules again for being drunk? I get like a bonus to strength or something, right? I'm getting drunk."
-TGA
Quote from: D-503;464543It's available online, legitimately, for free. I can send you a copy if you PM me, or a link.
It's pretty good actually going on a read rather than play through.
It used to be available on their web site under "Cutting Room Floor" (along with another one of the RPGs from the 80s, the original version of Recon), but seems to have disappeared now that they are selling the PDF on DriveThru. A clever lad might be able to find it using the Internet Wayback machine.
-TGA
Quote from: The Good Assyrian;464470That whole idea is so ripe for a RPG campaign to be based on it, it isn't funny. I just wish I had all the time I needed to run all the cool campaign ideas that I come across.
Don't we all? (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=20231) :D
Quote from: The Good Assyrian;464470Would you base your idea directly on Xenophon and make the PCs Greek or Greek-esque? Play it relatively straight or have the strange and unknown lands be filled with the supernatural?
Could be done either way, of course, but I'd rather use a grittier system like BRP or GURPS, and use supernatural elements very sparingly and subtly, if at all. Not sure whether to make the PCs Greeks or Greek-like, but as long as they're all from a similar cultural background (i.e. and the neighboring countries for the next several thousand miles all look strange and exotic to them).
In fact, my latest idea for an Anabasis campaign would be a Runequest Vikings campaign set in Constantinople, with PCs as Varangian Guardsmen fleeing the city after the upheaval following the death of Nikephoros III, while being somehow impeded of doing so by ship. Maybe they'd go from North Africa to Spain and then cross the whole continent, or from Asia Minor to Hungary and then Rus; either way would cover thousands of miles of strange, foreign and potentially hostile lands, which of course is the whole point of the game.
Quote from: The Butcher;464619In fact, my latest idea for an Anabasis campaign would be a Runequest Vikings campaign set in Constantinople, with PCs as Varangian Guardsmen fleeing the city after the upheaval following the death of Nikephoros III, while being somehow impeded of doing so by ship. Maybe they'd go from North Africa to Spain and then cross the whole continent, or from Asia Minor to Hungary and then Rus; either way would cover thousands of miles of strange, foreign and potentially hostile lands, which of course is the whole point of the game.
Sounds fun!
Quote from: The Butcher;464619In fact, my latest idea for an Anabasis campaign would be a Runequest Vikings campaign set in Constantinople, with PCs as Varangian Guardsmen fleeing the city after the upheaval following the death of Nikephoros III, while being somehow impeded of doing so by ship. Maybe they'd go from North Africa to Spain and then cross the whole continent, or from Asia Minor to Hungary and then Rus; either way would cover thousands of miles of strange, foreign and potentially hostile lands, which of course is the whole point of the game.
You might like to read Michael Chabon's Gentlemen of the Road (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentlemen_of_the_Road), then.
Quote from: The Butcher;464619In fact, my latest idea for an Anabasis campaign would be a Runequest Vikings campaign set in Constantinople, with PCs as Varangian Guardsmen fleeing the city after the upheaval following the death of Nikephoros III, while being somehow impeded of doing so by ship. Maybe they'd go from North Africa to Spain and then cross the whole continent, or from Asia Minor to Hungary and then Rus; either way would cover thousands of miles of strange, foreign and potentially hostile lands, which of course is the whole point of the game.
In that case, you might like to read Michael Chabon's Gentlemen of the Road (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentlemen_of_the_Road)
To me, a Bronze Age setting would be about Men vs the Gods, with City States and vast Empires, God-Kings and Solar Priests but also with explorers, warriors and magicians.
Look at what is around at that time (and the Bronze Age covers a long period) - Egypt, the Hittites, Mycenaean Greece, Troy, the Earth Temples on Malta, the Minoans, Babylon and Mesopotamia, the Indus Valley civilisation and an emerging Chinese Empire. Throw in Atlantis and you've got a really great mix of cultures.
Don't like classical settings? The Beaker folk are moving through Europe and are travelling to and fro across the channel. People are building great monuments along the Atlantic coast and the Gods are travelling to Ireland.
With the rise of Bronze the Empire became more important than the Man. Bronze requires tin, and tin is rare and expensive. An empire can afford to field an army decked out in bronze weapons, and an individual or a village cannot. So for the first time the governments had a virtually insurmountable advantage in combat over the locals.
That's basically the defining point of the BA for me. Sumer or Egypt basically can't lose a fight to a bunch of villagers with stone and copper bullshit. It's like the anti-D&D. It's actually a lot like Warhammer 40K. The Empire has Space Marines, and this is beyond comprehension to lowly breakaway planets who have to field normal humans without power armor.
-Frank
Quote from: The Good Assyrian;464557It used to be available on their web site under "Cutting Room Floor" (along with another one of the RPGs from the 80s, the original version of Recon), but seems to have disappeared now that they are selling the PDF on DriveThru. A clever lad might be able to find it using the Internet Wayback machine.
-TGA
If that's the case though, would it still count as being "legitimately" available for free?
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;464879If that's the case though, would it still count as being "legitimately" available for free?
RPGPundit
I am sensitive to such issues, which is why I said it *had* been legitimately available for free at one time and noted that it was now available for $6. Considering the coolness of the game I think that $6 is a reasonable price to pay of you have an interest in an ancient Egyptian campaign.
-TGA
Quote from: Cole;463789My take on Bronze Age fantasy is a little different than yours; I think primarily in terms of the cultures of mycenae and crete, also the urnfield and terramare in europe on fringes. In part I think of it as being not about the beginning but about the end of the beginning. There are great empires on the southern/eastern horizon that are beginning to grow sleepy and stumble in their weary age. The golden age of myth where Orion and Hercules drove back the monsters to allow for civilization is something remembered, but with some confusion and warriors and princes would claim the heritage of these past heroes who are now more cult objects than real figures.
[...all the stuff I'm deleting here, too...]
Far and bold travel, either for sheer adventure (or profit), or in an attempt to either expand the civilized world, or reject it and try to walk backwards into the mythic age, would be a big source of adventures. They visit the yawning empires to the south and east, or travel to mythologized versions of other less known, fringe cultures like the nuragics in sardinia or something more exotic to them, like the Jomon of japan, which could be near or far on a map as though this is a great age of navigation if you went far enough it begins to become the Odyssey where distance and space might not mean the same that it used to. They could find the lands of giants, or of lotus eaters, or meet the oncoming throng of angered gods' bloody followers if they pushed the wrong way - maybe the campaign, if the time is nigh, could be the last flight against the oncoming wave and the PCs left to sail west and west until they meet the past lest they meet the future.
This is pretty close to my take on it. Not a mythic reality but closer to the gritty reality, focused on the Aegean but spanning the whole Bronze Age world and not simply confined to Mesopotamia or Egypt. What I would add is some sort of Minoan Thera as a sort of quasi-Atlantis acting as a sort of (as one person put it) Hong Kong of the Bronze Age. Basically, an international trading hub.
I recommend watching Michael Wood's In Search of the Trojan War (http://www.amazon.com/Search-Trojan-War-Michael-Wood/dp/B0001KL5BW/), which, despite some flaws, does an excellent job of bringing the Late Bronze Age to life.
I also recommend two children's book full of great art by illustrator Peter Connolly as inspiration (the artwork reflects archaeology-based reconstructions of the period):
The Ancient Greece of Odysseus (http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/the-ancient-greece-of-odysseus-peter-connolly/1003270167) (an updated version of "The Legend of Odysseus")
Greek Legends: The Stories: The Evidence (http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/greek-legends-peter-connolly/1000425256?ean=9781566195171)
If you do want gods interacting with people, you might want to take a look at Harry Turtledove's Between the Rivers (http://www.amazon.com/Between-Rivers-Harry-Turtledove/dp/0812545206/) (already mentioned) and he's been involved in a few other Bronze Age-type books, including the anthology The First Heroes: New Tales of the Bronze Age (http://www.amazon.com/First-Heroes-New-Tales-Bronze/dp/B001G8WLG6/).
Some other books that I found useful, particularly dealing with day-to-day life rather than mythology and politics:
The End of the Bronze Age (http://www.amazon.com/End-Bronze-Age-Robert-Drews/dp/0691025916/) by Robert Drews
Civilization Before Greece and Rome (http://www.amazon.com/Civilization-Before-Greece-Rome-Saggs/dp/0300050313/) by H W F Saggs
Life in the Ancient Near East, 3100-332 B.C.E. (http://www.amazon.com/Life-Ancient-Near-East-3100-332/dp/0300076665/) by Daniel C. Snell
Early Civilizations: Ancient Egypt in Context (http://www.amazon.com/Early-Civilizations-Ancient-Egypt-Context/dp/B002ASZDT8/) by Bruce G. Trigger
Travel in the Ancient World (http://www.amazon.com/Travel-Ancient-World-Lionel-Casson/dp/0801848083/) by Lionel Casson
Some miscellaneous web information that might be useful:
The Uluburun Late Bronze Age Shipwreck (http://www.archaeological.org/pdfs/education/cargoes/Cargoes_Chapter4.pdf)
The Code of the Nesilim (http://www.fordham.edu/HALSALL/ANCIENT/1650nesilim.html)
The Code of Hammurabi (http://public.wsu.edu/~dee/MESO/CODE.HTM)
Mosaic and Ancient Near Eastern Laws (http://www.theology.edu/egypt3.htm)
Bronze Age reenactment weaponry and armor (http://www.larp.com/hoplite/bronze.html)
The Greek Age of Bronze (http://www.salimbeti.com/micenei/index.htm)
Mycenaean Age (http://campus.lakeforest.edu/academics/greece/BrzMyc.html)
The Prehistoric Archaeology of the Aegean (//projectsx.dartmouth.edu/classics/history/bronze_age/index.html)
Slings (http://www.slinging.org/)
Morris Silver's Ancient Economies articles (http://sondmor.tripod.com/index-html) (I own Silver's books Economic Structures of Antiquity (http://www.amazon.com/Economic-Structures-of-Antiquity-ebook/dp/B000PY3KRQ/) and Economic Structures of the Ancient Near East (http://www.amazon.com/Economic-structures-ancient-Near-East/dp/0709933703/))
Project Troia (http://www.uni-tuebingen.de/troia/eng/index.html)
The Thera Foundation (http://www.therafoundation.org/)
Minoan Atlantis (http://www.minoanatlantis.com/)
Theban Mapping Project (http://www.thebanmappingproject.com/) (Valley of the Kings tomb maps)
Some images:
(http://www.salimbeti.com/micenei/images/war08.jpg)
(http://www.christoph-haussner.de/Bilder%20Home%20page/TVI%20-%20Suedtor%20%28Kopie%29.JPG) (http://www.christoph-haussner.de/index.html)
(http://nautarch.tamu.edu/class/353/Pylos%20megaron%20reconstructed.jpg)
(http://www.oneonta.edu/faculty/farberas/arth/Images/ARTH209images/Mycenaean/Mycenae_recon.jpg)
(http://www.athens.psu.edu/2002/athens_files/image015.jpg)
(http://www.minoanatlantis.com/pix/Minoan_Miniature_Frieze_Admirals_Flotilla_Fresco_Art_Thera_Scene_500px.jpg)
(http://www.decadevolcano.net/santorini/figures/paleo_models_DRUITT91.gif)
(http://www.minoanatlantis.com/pix/Minoan_Knossos_Palace_Reconstruction.jpg)
(http://www.ancientworlds.net/aworlds_media/ibase_1/00/09/50/00095093_000.jpg)
(http://www.christoph-haussner.de/Bilder%20Home%20page/GIZEH-%20Pyramiden%20altert..jpg) (http://www.christoph-haussner.de/index.html)
Hey Morrow, welcome back.
Btw, the Hittite laws are funny as all heck.
Quote199. If anyone have intercourse with a pig or a dog, he shall die. If a man have intercourse with a horse or a mule, there is no punishment. But he shall not approach the king, and shall not become a priest. If an ox spring upon a man for intercourse, the ox shall die but the man shall not die. One sheep shall be fetched as a substitute for the man, and they shall kill it. If a pig spring upon a man for intercourse, there is no punishment. If any man have intercourse with a foreign woman and pick up this one, now that one, there is no punishment.
FYI, the Bronze Age Shang could be a decent model for a bad-guy society, especially if they are dialed up to 11:
"The Shang embraced ancestor veneration-a hierarchical kinship that was a central to royal divination and underscored a spiritual alliance that bridged the worlds of living and dead. The ancestor cult required that the living king nourish his ancestors with millet-wine libations, grain offerings, and animal and human sacrifices (Lopez 1996:42). Many of the oracle inscriptions were questions regarding the number of cattle, sheep or humans to be sacrificed. These bribes honoured and appeased the ancestors, giving them strength to mediate on the king's behalf with the celestial powers, bestowing insight and influence to affect the Shang world (Keightly 1978:213). This not only created a strict ritualistic process stressing the importance of right conduct to the right ancestor on the right day-which was critical for the successful outcome of the Shang king's prognostication-but also reinforced the idea that the world was discoverable and manageable if approached in negotiable, quantifiable, contractual terms with one's ancestors (Keightly 1978:216)." (http://www.cameronfreeman.com/index.cfm?Fuseaction=ArticleDisplay&ArticleID=349&SectionID=99)
...and...
"Human sacrifice was not unusual during the Shang Dynasty. Most medium/large size tombs, from this time period, have human sacrifices. Thousands of them have been found at Yinxu’s royal cemetery."
"Archaeologists cannot yet say for sure who the sacrificial victims at Huanbei were. Professor Jing said that more scientific analysis needs to be done on them. But based on oracle bone inscriptions found at other Shang sites, he does have a working idea."
"“According to oracle bones inscriptions the victims for the ritual killings (were) likely the captives of the war the Shang engaged with neighbours,” said Jing. “Definitely by the end of the dynasty the war captives were the primary source of human victims.”" (http://heritage-key.com/blogs/owenjarus/torched-shang-dynasty-city-huanbei-was-destroyed-its-own-rulers)
The Mesopotamians developed writing for accounting purposes while the Shang developed writing to negotiate with the supernatural.
But my favorite model for an ancient bad-guy society remains the Moche (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moche) from Peru. Torture, human sacrifices, blood drinking, human skeletons strung together like puppets, kinky pornographic pottery, and a deity that archaeologists call "The Decapitator". They are like something straight out of sword and sorcery or pulp central casting for villains.
For those interested in Egypt, I picked up this sweet little book recently: Ancient Egypt as it was: Exploring the city of Thebes in 1200 BC (http://www.amazon.ca/Ancient-Egypt-As-Was-Exploring/dp/0762770589/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1308695514&sr=1-2), by Charlotte Booth.
It's basically a travel guide to Thebes and it's surrounds. It's written in the present tense, as if the present was 1200 BC, and contains all kinds of useful information for travellers - including sights, culture, wildlife, prices, customs, phrases, etc.
I love the attention to detail/ It's got lots if little flavourful things like:
"If there's a donkey available when you are on the west bank, why not travel south past the mortuary temple of Horemheb...."
"...the ancient temple of Medamud (known locally as Madu), is situated 9,433 cubits northeast of Karnak temple."
"If while in Thebes you decide to have a copy of the Spells for Going Forth by Day commissioned for your own burial, then there are numerous options depending on time and finance."
Great, flavourful stuff for a New Kingdom campaign.
Thanks for the great images and links John!
:)
Yes, awesome images.
RPGPundit
Quote from: John Morrow;465055(http://www.minoanatlantis.com/pix/Minoan_Miniature_Frieze_Admirals_Flotilla_Fresco_Art_Thera_Scene_500px.jpg)
(http://www.decadevolcano.net/santorini/figures/paleo_models_DRUITT91.gif)
For me Thera is the Atlantis of the legend.
Imagine a Bronze Age Manhattan built on the island in the centre of that caldera that forms the rest of the island, looking like the first picture above that I quoted.
A centre of commerce and trade set at a major crossroads in the Mediterranean, a shipping centre. Minoan Crete is to the South with the rest of the Greek islands and mainland to the North where the fledgling city states are growing. Further North is the entrance to the Black Sea and the civilisations there. South East is Egypt and the Levant, entry to the large land based empires of the Fertile Crescent. Anatolia and Cyprus are to the North east.
Thera has a huge natural harbour that can shelter ships and with a single entrance that can be guarded against any naval attack. I imagine that the island had mainly docklands and warehouses around the edge of the island and the multi-story houses and buildings in the centre of the island. From the study of Akrotiri, a town buried by the volcano much like Pompeii, it shows they had running water [both hot & cold], flush toilets, fountains, and a proper sewage system. Quite advanced at the time.
Quote from: Darran;465316For me Thera is the Atlantis of the legend.
Imagine a Bronze Age Manhattan built on the island in the centre of that caldera that forms the rest of the island, looking like the first picture above that I quoted.
That's exactly why I posted those two images in that order. The first image, from Akrotiri, is now widely thought to be a depiction of what was on the island in the middle. While I think Hong Kong is, in many ways, a better analogy than Manhattan, either way, there is fantastic role-playing potential in a Bronze Age cosmopolitan trading hub. Too bad that they built it right on top of a huge volcano, but some speculate that that's how they had things like running hot water and heat.
I have been slammed at work this week and haven't had a chance to much more than check in on this thread, but people have been putting forward some awesome and interesting variations on the Bronze Age fantasy idea.
And awesome collection of links and images, John!
More thoughts to come shortly...
-TGA
Quote from: John Morrow;465055This is pretty close to my take on it. Not a mythic reality but closer to the gritty reality, focused on the Aegean but spanning the whole Bronze Age world and not simply confined to Mesopotamia or Egypt. What I would add is some sort of Minoan Thera as a sort of quasi-Atlantis acting as a sort of (as one person put it) Hong Kong of the Bronze Age. Basically, an international trading hub.
I am still wedded to a more Mesopotamian-themed campaign idea for now, but between your vision of a Bronze Age Hong Kong and Cole's general ability to put awesomeness into words I am sorely tempted to pitch an Aegean flavored campaign.
Or a New Kingdom Egypt one, for that matter...
Fuck. Too little time, too many cool ideas.
-TGA
Quote from: Thalaba;465182For those interested in Egypt, I picked up this sweet little book recently: Ancient Egypt as it was: Exploring the city of Thebes in 1200 BC (http://www.amazon.ca/Ancient-Egypt-As-Was-Exploring/dp/0762770589/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1308695514&sr=1-2), by Charlotte Booth.
Nice find! Thanks for the recommendation. I am picking it up.
-TGA
Quote from: The Good Assyrian;465509I am still wedded to a more Mesopotamian-themed campaign idea for now, but between your vision of a Bronze Age Hong Kong and Cole's general ability to put awesomeness into words I am sorely tempted to pitch an Aegean flavored campaign.
Or a New Kingdom Egypt one, for that matter...
The nice thing about the Bronze Age is that trade stretched from the central Europe to at least the Indus Valley, which traded with Mesopotamia. Depending on how strictly historical you want to be, or whether you want to create a non-historical fantasy Bronze Age or mash periods ahistorically together, you could easily have a fairly cosmopolitan group that travels through different flavored areas in search of trading opportunities, such as the trading expedition part of
Between the Rivers, which, based on the titles (e.g., "wanax", "lawegetas"), was a trip to Mycenaean Greece. So your PCs could be Mesopotamian but travel to the Hattusa, Troy, Mycenae, Thebes, the Nile, the Indus Valley, the "Pillars of Hercules", or even beyond (Shang China, Britain) as part of a exploratory trading mission or diplomatic mission (e.g., transporting a princess for a diplomatic wedding). Or perhaps as part of the army of a premature Alexander the Great, leading an conquering army across the Bronze Age world.
A bunch of stock photos from National Geographic here (http://www.nationalgeographicstock.com/ngsimages/explore/explore.jsf?p=TExPWUQgSy4gVE9XTlNFTkQgSlIu), including:
(http://www.nationalgeographicstock.com/comp/02/158/61006.jpg)
(http://www.nationalgeographicstock.com/comp/02/158/22190.jpg)
(http://www.nationalgeographicstock.com/comp/Y1/804/611334.jpg)
(http://www.nationalgeographicstock.com/comp/Z0/590/559385.jpg)
(http://www.nationalgeographicstock.com/comp/01/328/32960.jpg)
(http://www.nationalgeographicstock.com/comp/02/158/841928.jpg)
(http://www.nationalgeographicstock.com/comp/01/328/620121.jpg)
(http://www.nationalgeographicstock.com/comp/02/175/623336.jpg)
(http://www.nationalgeographicstock.com/comp/Y3/036/611014.jpg)
(The Theran eruption is inaccurate according to the latest theories, since it shows a mountain erupting, but it's an interesting painting.)
More images:
(http://www.sewerhistory.org/images/w/wam/har_wam02.jpg)
(http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu77/sadhasivan123/surkotada_concept.jpg)
(http://www.essential-architecture.com/IMAGES2/shdgdfyt.png)
(http://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/lookandlearn-preview/A/A001/A001026.jpg) (http://www.lookandlearn.com/history-images/A001026/Mycenae?img=85867&cat=01~Original_artwork/Look_and_Learn)
(http://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/lookandlearn-preview/A/A000/A000230.jpg) (http://www.lookandlearn.com/history-images/A000230/The-Dorians?img=0&search=mycenaean&cat=01~Original_artwork&bool=and)
(http://www.pitt.edu/~tokerism/0040/images3/331.jpg)
(http://www.pitt.edu/~tokerism/0040/images3/329.jpg)
(http://www.hartzler.org/cc307/mycenaean/images/62.jpg) (http://www.hartzler.org/cc307/mycenaean/images/61.jpg)
(http://www.salimbeti.com/micenei/images/bodyshield06.jpg)
Large Image of Troy (without recently discovered lower city) (http://homepages.uni-tuebingen.de/simone.riehl/troia.jpg)
Large Image of harbor at Ur (http://www.enenuru.net/visuals/balag/hires/A-Ur%20harbour,%202100%20BCE.jpg)
Osprey has quite a few titles that cover the Bronze Age now:
(http://www.ospreypublishing.com/images/books/covers/mainpageimages/9781846039560-th2.jpg) (http://www.ospreypublishing.com/images/books/covers/mainpageimages/9780850453843-th2.jpg)
(http://www.ospreypublishing.com/images/books/covers/mainpageimages/9781855322080-th2.jpg) (http://www.ospreypublishing.com/images/books/covers/mainpageimages/9781846031069-th2.jpg)
(http://www.ospreypublishing.com/images/books/covers/mainpageimages/9781846032073-th2.jpg) (http://www.ospreypublishing.com/images/books/covers/mainpageimages/9781846030819-th2.jpg)
(http://www.ospreypublishing.com/images/books/covers/mainpageimages/9781841769448-th2.jpg) (http://www.ospreypublishing.com/images/books/covers/mainpageimages/9781849081955-th2.jpg)
(http://www.ospreypublishing.com/images/books/covers/mainpageimages/9781841767628-th2.jpg) (http://www.ospreypublishing.com/images/books/covers/mainpageimages/9781841767031-th2.jpg)
Two more are "The Mycenaeans c.1650–1100 BC" and "Qadesh 1300 BC".
A few more images:
(http://www.nmia.com/~jaybird/ThomasBakerPaintings/images.html/minoan_costumes/Minoan_palace_scene_enlarged.jpg)
(http://www.hartzler.org/cc307/minoan/images/ch.jpg)
(http://mirageswar.com/uploads/posts/1225645817_130el1.jpg)
(http://209.85.48.8/2279/116/upload/p6942611.jpg)
(http://www.bookdrum.com/images/books/45427_m.jpg)
(http://www.stolaf.edu/courses/2002sem2/Art_and_Art_History/265/HarappaReconstruction.jpg)
Those are really evocative images, perfect for a roleplaying setting.
That's the beauty of a roleplaying game - you don't have to be 100% accurate and can use different sources as inspiration. I often like to use older sources as they capture the spirit of the setting rather than the cold historical fact.
Yeah; I don't want to see threads become exclusively "image threads", but this is very evocative stuff and meets with my approval.
RPGPundit
Hi,
This might interest you guys:
http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=31958
It's a mixture of European bronze age cultures, although the largest one is based on Mesopotamia.
Cheers,
Dan
Interestingly, I've just started working on the review of "Puerta de Ishtar", a Spanish RPG set in a fantasy version of ancient mesopotamia. It's quite good so far.
Quote from: RPGPundit;823210Interestingly, I've just started working on the review of "Puerta de Ishtar", a Spanish RPG set in a fantasy version of ancient mesopotamia. It's quite good so far.
Very interesting, I love the cover!
Quote from: oldskoolmosher;823224Very interesting, I love the cover!
Me too!
My favorite Bronze Age Fantasy has been Mazes & Minotaurs. The fanbase has tremendously expanded the game beyond the Greek myths so I imagine all local Bronze Age cultures have an article or ten by now.
http://mazesandminotaurs.free.fr/
Palladium once put out a boxed set called The Valley of the Pharaohs which was lots of fun. I've played it 3 times and I'd play it again. Definitely deserves a revisit and expansion.
Thanks for the link Spinachcat, I've not come across that one before - the first few pages are a fantastic read!
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