In games where blood transfusions are possible, as well as surgery and other relatively advanced medical techniques, would you go so far as to make blood type a character trait?
Generally speaking blood types could be useful in games where players can get injured and need transfusions. Let's not forget every single member of the military carries ID with his bloodtype included, for a good reason.
So would you make blood type a character trait? I could see it as being in general a feature that had a 0 point cost, with being one of those poor schmucks who could only accept very rare blood types as a minor to moderate disad, whilst being the so-called "universal recipient" could be a mild to moderate advantage.
Note that being a "universal donor" would not really matter much to the character as much as who he could receive blood from. At most being a UD might be a tiny advantage that could blow up on the player if too many people suddenly need too much blood.
BTW, do many games feature this already? I could see the morrow project and twilight 2xxx maybe having it, I'm always surprised traveller missed it.
Note that in ultra high tech settings where artificial/universal blood substitute id available, the effect of this may drop but it could still be a factor when you're sharship down on some uncharted frontier world, your medical supplies are limited and jones was just speared by a hostile native...
If the game focus is gritty "reality" (dare I say "crunchy"!?) in regards to trauma recovery then that sort of detail would be required and appreciated.
I do not remember the games you mention having that info...I can't think of one that does! Could be used as a cool hook or wrinkle during an adventure!
If we do this it might be necessary to mention if the character's even been exposed to/carrying any blood borne diseases...
Not really a problem for any decent system. Just a line in the history section.
It's astounding no game has ever done this...
For a gritty modern or post-modern game, blood type would be essential. However, a stat isn't needed - Just have players write one down in the background. If they powergame it for some reason, have them roll 1d4 or something.
Quote from: Narf the Mouse;412086For a gritty modern or post-modern game, blood type would be essential. However, a stat isn't needed - Just have players write one down in the background. If they powergame it for some reason, have them roll 1d4 or something.
Hmm, let me look up a website about blood and transfusions....
Here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_type
(OK, someone bitch about wikipedia being unreliable now.)
This gives all the data needed to make a blood type system for RPGs including how common blood types are and who can be a universal donor or recipient. Blood types could be random with percentile dice and the charts o the link or maybe bought with points or give a points bonus if you need a rare type.
Quote from: Cylonophile;412072BTW, do many games feature this already?
Anime games sometimes attach a special significance to the blood types, but for completely different reasons.
So, no one dos it for real purposes, like transfusions.
I think you're onto something here and not just from a modern or sci-fi angle. Consider that many magical rituals were powered by sacrifice and the use of blood. The type and amount used could result in wildly varying results in a game with a good blood magic system. In a fantasy world like this, being of noble blood or certain bloodlines would be very important. Breeding, Hemophilia and Sacrificial Knives would become major parts of a campaign.
Vampire used blood albeit in a clumsy way as a pool of points to power abilities. Earthdawn had blood magic but it was predictable and lacked flavour if memory serves me.
You've really got me thinking...
Thanks
Quote from: EBM;412099I think you're onto something here and not just from a modern or sci-fi angle. Consider that many magical rituals were powered by sacrifice and the use of blood. The type and amount used could result in wildly varying results in a game with a good blood magic system. In a fantasy world like this, being of noble blood or certain bloodlines would be very important. Breeding, Hemophilia and Sacrificial Knives would become major parts of a campaign.
Vampire used blood albeit in a clumsy way as a pool of points to power abilities. Earthdawn had blood magic but it was predictable and lacked flavour if memory serves me.
You've really got me thinking...
Thanks
Getting a person to think is one of the greatest things one can do.
In fantasy settings the term "blood" usually refers to more primitive concepts like "race" or a family line with no connection whatsoever to the literal meaning of the term. ("You are of the accursed Charlton bloodline! You are filth!" or "You are of noble blood, your destiny is to lead!")
I'd like to see just basic realistic blood rules for games in the right setting, at least up to early 20th century into the future, where issues like blood types and transfusions might be a real issues.
Again, the fact that traveller, morrow project and other gritty games missed this is amazing...
There's quite a bit of popular pseudoscience in Japan which looks at blood type as an indicator of personality; not sure if you'd want to go quite this far with it, but there it is nonetheless.
Lord Hobie
What the fuck?!
RPGPundit
The reason blood type doesn't show up in modern / near future RPGs is because all healing rules are deeply abstracted, even in games that go to extremes with wounding rules.
You need a transfusion when you have blood loss, but without blood loss being part of the game system's wounding mechanic, then there's no need to consider transfusion as part of the healing rules.
However, the concept of "blood type" could be interesting for a fantasy game where blood was a game resource that did something via magic or monsters.
The Finnish sword-and-sorcery RPG Praedor uses "Blood" for the system's HP equivalent: the undead and demons don't have that, for example, so the only way to destroy them is by scoring crits. However, it's not divided into different types.
Quote from: Lord Hobie;412104There's quite a bit of popular pseudoscience in Japan which looks at blood type as an indicator of personality; not sure if you'd want to go quite this far with it, but there it is nonetheless.
Lord Hobie
Yeah, I'l use that in the same game that makes phrenology a valid science...
Quote from: RPGPundit;412148What the fuck?!
RPGPundit
...never mind.
Quote from: Lord Hobie;412104There's quite a bit of popular pseudoscience in Japan which looks at blood type as an indicator of personality; not sure if you'd want to go quite this far with it, but there it is nonetheless.
Lord Hobie
Ditto for China. :)
Quote from: skofflox;412219Ditto for China. :)
Really, folks, (Pundit especially) I was just talking about using real blood types (A, B, AB, O, positive or negative, plus maybe alien types such as "T negative" if you get that really obscure reff) to games for purposes of added realism, especially in games where injury and transfusions might be a valid part of the setting.
I wasn't talking about blood as in some mystic sense, but in real, modern terms. Anyone here who's ever had to have a transfusion would understand.
Fuck realism in its cappuchino stained bunghole!
Ah, what I come to this forum for - Maturity and acceptance of ideas.
Quote from: Narf the Mouse;412269Ah, what I come to this forum for - Maturity and acceptance of ideas.
Some people on this thread have said they liked it, Narf. One made a dumb comment and another was bewildered into a fog of incomprehension because the concept was beyond him, but by and large reception here has been mostly good, so don't knock the board.
Quote from: Cylonophile;412290Some people on this thread have said they liked it, Narf. One made a dumb comment and another was bewildered into a fog of incomprehension because the concept was beyond him, but by and large reception here has been mostly good, so don't knock the board.
Sorry, yeah, most of the board is good. Just a few people who seem to have Tourettes or something. And that does get a little wearing.
Quote from: Spinachcat;412235Fuck realism in its cappuchino stained bunghole!
Well said, sir!
RPGPundit
Quote from: Spinachcat;412235Fuck realism in its cappuchino stained bunghole!
but . . . but, detailed blood rules could be the solution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anal_bleaching) to that stained bunghole!
I think realistic blood rules are unnecessary detail for the vast majority of games, even if they are realistic and model blood loss. Most transfusions are going to come from a medical source that will have the right type 95% of the time. For the rare field transfusion, roll dice to see who is compatible. For futuristic games, you can probably assume synthetic plasma.
Quote from: Nicephorus;412545For futuristic games, you can probably assume synthetic plasma.
According to urban myth, coconuts.
I suppose blood types could be interesting in a supers game because of things like gaining powers through blood transfusion (Hulk--> She-Hulk)...not that most games want that happening a lot.
Quote from: Nicephorus;412545I think realistic blood rules are unnecessary detail for the vast majority of games, even if they are realistic and model blood loss. Most transfusions are going to come from a medical source that will have the right type 95% of the time. For the rare field transfusion, roll dice to see who is compatible. For futuristic games, you can probably assume synthetic plasma.
Or assume a single blood type due to thinning of the gene pool sense all the space fairing people are descended from just a few astronauts.
Quote from: Nicephorus;412545I think realistic blood rules are unnecessary detail for the vast majority of games, even if they are realistic and model blood loss. Most transfusions are going to come from a medical source that will have the right type 95% of the time. For the rare field transfusion, roll dice to see who is compatible. For futuristic games, you can probably assume synthetic plasma.
Exactly! What the fuck is the point!? Determining motherfucking "shoe size" as an attribute would make more sense than blood type. Without adding some kind of hokey idiotic magic or otherwise-supernatural excuse to use it, there's no fucking point at all in making a fucking mechanic just for this.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;412794Exactly! What the fuck is the point!? Determining motherfucking "shoe size" as an attribute would make more sense than blood type. Without adding some kind of hokey idiotic magic or otherwise-supernatural excuse to use it, there's no fucking point at all in making a fucking mechanic just for this.
RPGPundit
While I agree that blood type doesn't need to be an attribute, for some modern games where verisimilitude is a factor, it should be in the background.
Quote from: Narf the Mouse;412816While I agree that blood type doesn't need to be an attribute, for some modern games where verisimilitude is a factor, it should be in the background.
This, though I am surprised that most modern type games missed having blood types. The only one I could find that had it on the character sheet was
Fringeworthy, but in my quick look through the book I couldn't find out how to determine it randomly (I guess you were supposed to just choose.). Blood types were able to be determined in the default setting of
Timelords since you were playing yourself, but I haven't found any mention of using it. I'm going to have to look through some of my older games to see if there is any mention of blood types.
Quote from: beeber;412539but . . . but, detailed blood rules could be the solution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anal_bleaching) to that stained bunghole!
:rotfl: WTF?!
Quote from: Narf the Mouse;412816While I agree that blood type doesn't need to be an attribute, for some modern games where verisimilitude is a factor, it should be in the background.
Nicely put...not one cuss word! :)
Quote from: Narf the Mouse;412816While I agree that blood type doesn't need to be an attribute, for some modern games where verisimilitude is a factor, it should be in the background.
Why? Why the fuck should it? In modern games I've played, I've found that those campaigns where the GM makes us meticulously keep track of how many bowel movements our PC has had in a week are no more enjoyable, and in fact some would argue less enjoyable, than those where the GM says "you know what? Fuck it. None of us care how often our PC shits, its not relevant to the emulation of what we're doing".
Should you fucking keep track of how often a character has a bowel movement? How often he picks his nose? calculate a rate of how fast he's balding? Oh, I know: track his caloric intake versus his level of activity to create a "realistic" mechanic for whether he's gaining or losing weight as the campaign goes by.
Why don't we just fucking roll up his entire goddamn genetic code while we're at it?
The reason to do any of these things "verisimilitude" (ie. "realism"), is a GIGANTIC LIE. There is no way to achieve it. And worse, if you did ever achieve it, it would suck ass.
The point is EMULATION, motherfucker, not "realism". So unless there's a very specific reason within-emulation that would explain why blood type would matter at all, there's no fucking point in using it.
RPGPundit
Quote from: skofflox;412851Nicely put...not one cuss word! :)
Fuck your mother.
RPGPundit
Because it could determine whether a character lives or dies during a blood-transfusion, you out-of-control Tourettes machine.
That, and your own opinions are just that, not law given from on high, so don't pretend everyone has to agree with them.
Finally, if you can't make a point without profanity, the point probably wasn't worth making in the first place.
The character's blood type wouldn't make a difference without some way of determining the blood types available at the bank, and what could be acquired from the population at short notice. Without doing a real study, any numbers you pick will be totally arbitrary. If that is the case, there isn't any point in a blood type stat at all, as you could apply the average likelihood of them having the right stuff as a small modifier to the physician's doctoring check to save him.
In the Iraq war about 13%, give or take, of Americans that get hurt end up dead. All the rolling should still give you about a 87% chance to live if it is realistic.
Quote from: RPGPundit;412914Fuck your mother.
RPGPundit
:nono: :pundit:
very prosaic Pundy...how long did it take you to come up with that jem?
:p
Quote from: RPGPundit;412914Fuck your mother.
RPGPundit
I know you were meaning to be helpful, pundy, but your solutions to frustration and disappointment don't work for everyone.
Quote from: Narf the Mouse;412816While I agree that blood type doesn't need to be an attribute, for some modern games where verisimilitude is a factor, it should be in the background.
I disagree. I don't see how it will help do anything other than bring to the front, the players' lack of knowledge. You already have to have a broad knowledge of how things work to be a gamer; it seems silly to force people to learn about the logistics of running a blood bank, or how much blood is used in a surgery of various severities, vs. How quickly blood can be harvested from donors, and so on. I think all of that should be included in the doctor's saving you roll, and reflected as a bonus or penalty based on the quality of his facilities.
To Cylonophile: the original Morrow Project RPG had a random generation table for character's blood type, because they dwelt heavily on that sort of "crunch". The authors obviously felt that determining histocompatibility in a field surgery situation added to the "gritty, realistic" feel of the game.
Of course, this was also a game where your firearm practically had its own character sheet, so there are limits to how much crunch is a good thing. What can I say? - it was the early 1980's and it seemed like a good idea at the time.:o
Quote from: SBRPearce;413042To Cylonophile: the original Morrow Project RPG had a random generation table for character's blood type, because they dwelt heavily on that sort of "crunch". The authors obviously felt that determining histocompatibility in a field surgery situation added to the "gritty, realistic" feel of the game.
Of course, this was also a game where your firearm practically had its own character sheet, so there are limits to how much crunch is a good thing. What can I say? - it was the early 1980's and it seemed like a good idea at the time.:o
Hmm, I thought TMP went back to the late 70's?
Quote from: Cylonophile;413132Hmm, I thought TMP went back to the late 70's?
Mine says copyright 1980.
Quote from: SionEwig;413161Mine says copyright 1980.
Hmm, Wiki says it was released in the "1980" but sites that it's roots go back to 1974.
Quote from: Narf the Mouse;412915Because it could determine whether a character lives or dies during a blood-transfusion, you out-of-control Tourettes machine.
What, during the incredibly rare fucking period between when blood transfusions were attempted and they figured it the fuck out?
Or in those incredibly rare instances where someone tries to do an amateur blood transfusion on the spot?
On that topic, in my decades of gaming I have never ONCE been in or seen a situation where the idea even remotely came up that a character should need a blood transfusion.
Its making an incredibly complex microsystem for no particular purpose. Again, by this absurd logic character creation should involve a complex set of calculations to determine a character's chance of randomly getting diabetes or cancer. Its nonsense. Realism is bullshit. Emulation is all that matters, and this sort of thing fucks up emulation rather than helping it.
QuoteFinally, if you can't make a point without profanity, the point probably wasn't worth making in the first place.
Have you forgotten where you are, you fucking twat? This isn't the god-damned russian tea room or kiddy hour where we all lick Barney the Dinosaur's cunt.
RPGPundit
Blood! already does this :)
Quote from: Cylonophile;412072BTW, do many games feature this already? I could see the morrow project and twilight 2xxx maybe having it, I'm always surprised traveller missed it.
Fringeworthy, Bureau 13, have this feature (Given Morrow Project roots, that is not suprising). FTL2448 mentions it briefly, but the blows it off due to one of dozens of species.
They have it as a choice or you can roll for it. Everyone I know who chooses take universal recipient AB+ just in case someone would pull out the blood rules.
In Bureau 13 it does come up (as it does in a lot of modern supernatural horror games). I have seen it come up in Fringeworthy once in my 5 year campaign. FOr a set of rules that takes up 2 column inches, it is not that oppressive.
Quote from: Cylonophile;413132Hmm, I thought TMP went back to the late 70's?
The people playing with the rules starting working on them in 1974/75. In 74 it was more of a wargame skirmish. The roleplay aspect started in 75. The split between the developers happened in 78ish. The rules were published in 1980 with Fringeworthy published in 1982.
Quote from: Narf the Mouse;412915Because it could determine whether a character lives or dies during a blood-transfusion, you out-of-control Tourettes machine.
That, and your own opinions are just that, not law given from on high, so don't pretend everyone has to agree with them.
Finally, if you can't make a point without profanity, the point probably wasn't worth making in the first place.
I apologize for my contribution to the rudeness.
Quote from: RPGPundit;412914Fuck your mother.
RPGPundit
Man, I love Pundit.
But in a much less harsh manner, I agree with him. It is totally unnecessary. No game, and I mean NO GAME, I can think of has healing rules so complex that blood type comes into play or would be better off if it did. Medicine and healing is always abstract compared to the real world. I'd wager that the vast majority of gamers want to kill shit, blow shit up, solve mysteries, save galaxies, become king... whatever.
It just seems unnecessary. Basically, this:
Quote from: Cranewings;413022I disagree. I don't see how it will help do anything other than bring to the front, the players' lack of knowledge. You already have to have a broad knowledge of how things work to be a gamer; it seems silly to force people to learn about the logistics of running a blood bank, or how much blood is used in a surgery of various severities, vs. How quickly blood can be harvested from donors, and so on. I think all of that should be included in the doctor's saving you roll, and reflected as a bonus or penalty based on the quality of his facilities.
-=Grim=-
Quote from: RPGPundit;413551On that topic, in my decades of gaming I have never ONCE been in or seen a situation where the idea even remotely came up that a character should need a blood transfusion.
Also: I've seen two that I can remember: one in a Hunter the Reckoning game and one in Dark Conspiracy. Know how they were done? A simple medicine or healing skill check (however the system does it) with penalties/bonuses for equipment and conditions. No one cared about blood types. I'm sure some gamers might, but since we're people with imaginations, I don't see why those that care couldn't make a house-rule for it.
-=Grim=-
Blood! does indeed have blood type, rules for on the spot, amateur blood transfusions etc.
Blood! is the important health stat in the game, HP just determines when you start taking automatic criticals.
No, seriously, fuck your mother.
This shit is retarded.
RPGPundit
I could see this maybe in "Extreme Roleplaying" in a Post-Apocalyptic world, but the problem with hyper-realism has always been "When does it stop?". What about broken bones, organ injuries, infection, does your character need glasses? Want to play a game where finding the right prescription glasses is your character's primary goal in life?
If you really want it that bad, give yourself a disadvantage "Rare blood type" that gives anyone trying to heal you a penalty or something.
Quote from: Narf the Mouse;412915Because it could determine whether a character lives or dies during a blood-transfusion, you out-of-control Tourettes machine.
Normally that's what we have dice rolls for.
I mean, you can roll to see whether you've got the right blood type stored up and then apply First Aid skill, or you can just roll for First Aid skill, if you get a critical failure, woops, we didn't have your blood type - or we accidentally cut the wrong spot, or whatever.
You can go,
realism + abstracted dice roll ---> result
or
abstracted realism + abstracted dice roll ---> result
In my experience, it doesn't make much difference. The correct blood type is just one of many, many factors which affect the survival of a casualty. If you're going to bring that in, you could bring a lot, lot more in.
Systems where you have hit points and wound levels and so on are strongly abstracted anyway. Having blood types would take it to an incongruous level of detail. Why bring in blood types but not the local environment being hot or cold, the nutrition and intoxication status of the casualty, or a thousand other things which affect someone's survival?
Why that detail and not others?
In any case, unless the person has lost all but a pint or so of their blood, the major danger from blood loss is hypovolemic shock - simply by losing a certain amount of fluid volume in the circulatory system, the person goes into shock. It's also senseless to keep putting blood in them while they're haemorrhaging. So they give them other IV fluids. This keeps the person alive long enough for the haemorrhaging to be stopped or controlled and the necessary blood types to be found.
Quote from: CRKrueger;417298If you really want it that bad, give yourself a disadvantage "Rare blood type" that gives anyone trying to heal you a penalty or something.
A rather eloquent way of handling it without needing an extra layer of rules (i.e. blood types). *golf clap* Excellent. Most excellent.
-=Grim=-