Quote from: Doc Sammy;920455Beast: The Primordial-The moment that the New World of Darkness jumped the shark and we realized it couldn't be saved.

World of Darkness had already jumped the shark when Changeling: the Dreaming came out. I might even argue that the Sabbat books were the shark jump. Attention getting, yet also showing that they were losing sight of what made the setting interesting.

You are deep, deep into the Ted McGinley seasons with Beast: the Primordial.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;920193D'y'know....that explains quite a lot...

Steve Long was freelancer for White Wolf for awhile. I think he did allot for Hero System initially but frankly, some of his actions may very well be the bullet that finally slays the beast (or puts it out of their misery for those who are less than fans )

Quote from: Crüesader;920669They're really not, and the extra sides are fun.  But I can understand.

They are, and this what kills me. Though I sometimes get to recreate some of them at home, in a leaner, more manageable burrito.

Quote from: daniel_ream;920684Given all the topping options and menu items, I just don't have three hours to order a burrito any more.

I know, right??? Still, if someone else's going through the trouble of ordering it, I'll gladly take a bite.

Quote from: Opaopajr;920718California burritos, thick as a... woman's calf (whew!), carb loaded with an additional scoop of rice to send the nearest diabetic into starch-induced coma by proxy. All while you are tripping on acid which steals away your appetite. And did you ever really pay attention to the manifold shapes of tortilla chips? I mean, dude, they're all just triangles from Geometry Class trying to escape two-dimentionality through the power of boiling oil! Holy shit, horchatas are like drinking a churro...

I am the Tapatío hot sauce man.
/glassy eyed stare
/unnerving silence

You are so much better at this than I am. Why the acid, though?

Quote from: Baulderstone;920739World of Darkness had already jumped the shark when Changeling: the Dreaming came out. I might even argue that the Sabbat books were the shark jump. Attention getting, yet also showing that they were losing sight of what made the setting interesting.

You are deep, deep into the Ted McGinley seasons with Beast: the Primordial.

I always thought of Demon: The Fallen as Changeling: The Dreaming with a REALLY BAD hangover.

jg

Quote from: Baulderstone;920739World of Darkness had already jumped the shark when Changeling: the Dreaming came out. I might even argue that the Sabbat books were the shark jump. Attention getting, yet also showing that they were losing sight of what made the setting interesting.

You are deep, deep into the Ted McGinley seasons with Beast: the Primordial.

I think, in a commercial and popularity sense, White Wolf had really reached their crest when Mage: The Ascension came out. The first three games were really the World of Darkness proper. As as trend setting, zeitgeist type of thing it started to fall away with the release of Wraith: The Oblivion and by Changeling, the format was starting to get a get a little old and the critics more vocal. This isn't to say that these were good games of merit, with some good ideas though. They just weren't as popular.

In the case of the NWoD/CoD lines, it's more a matter of a marketing overhaul.

Quote from: The Butcher;920756You are so much better at this than I am. Why the acid, though?

I needed something to ground me.
If I let go, I'll fly away... :eek:

Quote from: TrippyHippy;920774As as trend setting, zeitgeist type of thing it started to fall away with the release of Wraith: The Oblivion and by Changeling, the format was starting to get a get a little old and the critics more vocal.

I know around my neck of the woods the problem was that nobody quite knew what to do with them.  Everyone had seen vampire and werewolf movies, and Mage mashed a bunch of gonzo stuff together that gave people options, but Wraith and Changeling just left people going "huh?"

Wraith in particular would have been a lot better if it had stuck with people resolving the issues that they had in life. Everything else from the undead government to the tempest to the metaplot just distracted and detracted.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;920785... Everything else from the undead government to the tempest to the metaplot just distracted and detracted.

I remember reading about this, and all I could think about was 'Beetlejuice'.  It just seemed like it far outshined what the game was supposed to be about, and made you more worried about Stygia or the Jade City or whatever it was called.  It seemed far more suited to Exalted.

Quote from: daniel_ream;920782I know around my neck of the woods the problem was that nobody quite knew what to do with them.  Everyone had seen vampire and werewolf movies, and Mage mashed a bunch of gonzo stuff together that gave people options, but Wraith and Changeling just left people going "huh?"

I think they were also the victim of a mandatory production schedule and the overall line stretching thin. Vampire, Werewolf and Mage all had solid ideas behind them. I can nitpick about specifics, but they were entirely playable games. By they time you get to Changeling, you have a company mandated release. it didn't mater that there was no coherent idea behind the game and that the system was a hideous CCG hybrid. The ultimate irony was that this soulless thing was a game about Imagination.

I think it actually could have been good with another year of work, but WW was married to a new RPG every year at any cost.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;920785Wraith in particular would have been a lot better if it had stuck with people resolving the issues that they had in life. Everything else from the undead government to the tempest to the metaplot just distracted and detracted.

Quote from: Crüesader;920786I remember reading about this, and all I could think about was 'Beetlejuice'.  It just seemed like it far outshined what the game was supposed to be about, and made you more worried about Stygia or the Jade City or whatever it was called.  It seemed far more suited to Exalted.

I actually really liked the afterworld setting. It clearly was a more high-fantasy Beetlejuice, which I actually thought was awesome.

The thing is, that setting was really incoherent and hard to grasp in the core book. As the line went on, it did become a really interesting setting, but it was too late. If they had spent more time on that Wraith core book, it could have been a success. I don't think it would ever have been a Vampire level success, but like Mage, it could had really appealed to a subset of gamers.

I agree with Willie that the underworld stuff never gelled with dealing with your past. I think they could have made that work though. They simple didn't put enough thought into it.

Both Wraith and Changeling felt like the developer threw up his hands and figured he could get it right in the next edition.

Quote from: Baulderstone;920796I actually really liked the afterworld setting. It clearly was a more high-fantasy Beetlejuice, which I actually thought was awesome.

The thing is, that setting was really incoherent and hard to grasp in the core book. As the line went on, it did become a really interesting setting, but it was too late. If they had spent more time on that Wraith core book, it could have been a success. I don't think it would ever have been a Vampire level success, but like Mage, it could had really appealed to a subset of gamers.

I agree with Willie that the underworld stuff never gelled with dealing with your past. I think they could have made that work though. They simple didn't put enough thought into it.

Both Wraith and Changeling felt like the developer threw up his hands and figured he could get it right in the next edition.

I really liked Wraith too, but I recall the Dragon review of the time which said it was the weakest of the WoD line (to date) which was the first unfavourable review I ever read for a WW game. It did, however, get a late following a few years later where some critics started to feel that the game had something quite unique and deep to offer, over and above the rest of the WoD games.

One other factor for Changeling and Wraith is they simply didn't quite fit the WoD. In the case of Wraith it was actually a seperate setting (the Underworld) while Changeling was such a tonal shift it may as well have been.

Still looking forward to getting both 20th Anniversary versions though.

Quote from: Baulderstone;920796I actually really liked the afterworld setting. It clearly was a more high-fantasy Beetlejuice, which I actually thought was awesome.
...
I agree with Willie that the underworld stuff never gelled with dealing with your past. I think they could have made that work though. They simple didn't put enough thought into it.

Oh, certainly. If it was the undead bureaucracy setting that you liked, then dealing with your mortal existence was the part that detracted. I don't think they gelled, thanks for that phrasing.

As to Stygia (or Jade Kingdom, they were both there Cruesader), the challenge for playing that was that the system and backstory they laid out was less high-minded Beetlejuice and more high-minded Terry Gilliam's Brazil (which sounds awesome, but is really hard to play in). An uncaring government where just by existing all of the citizens were technically criminals (pretty much everyone had illegal powers), and any run-in with the law ought reasonably end with the PCs turned into lampshades. I understand it was supposed to be just like vampires' "you start out at the bottom of the totem pole, and if you don't act carefully, you could be killed by your own kind," but it was set up more closely to "you wake up with no memory with a gun and a dead hooker. You don't remember much except that you live in a world where the police shoot on sight." For a story-driven game, I felt one actually had to break verisimilitude constantly to explain why the PCs survived at all.
To further this problem, just about everything from spectres to stygia's police forces weapons to the blades of jade razorgrass which apparently covered most of the Asian shadowlands did aggravated damage. The designers made this wonderful system where when you dropped to 0 health from regular damage, you had this existential crises where your own darkside would try to convince you to embrace your darkest nature and all that, but it never got used. So it had a character-driven game/roll up new characters every week discontinuity.

It was a wonderful concept to think about though. I actually have more fond impressions of the game than the ones that actually got played.

Quote from: Baulderstone;920793I think they were also the victim of a mandatory production schedule and the overall line stretching thin. Vampire, Werewolf and Mage all had solid ideas behind them. I can nitpick about specifics, but they were entirely playable games. By they time you get to Changeling, you have a company mandated release. it didn't mater that there was no coherent idea behind the game and that the system was a hideous CCG hybrid. The ultimate irony was that this soulless thing was a game about Imagination.

I think it actually could have been good with another year of work, but WW was married to a new RPG every year at any cost.

The University of Alabama Gamer's Guild was very involved in the original Changeling playtest back in the '90s.  The universal reaction to it from those involved was that it sucked ass.  The guys who were in on that playtest were real WW fanboys, too.

Changeling was just a bad game, and I don't think more time would have helped.

Quote from: ThatChrisGuy;920869The University of Alabama Gamer's Guild was very involved in the original Changeling playtest back in the '90s.  The universal reaction to it from those involved was that it sucked ass.  The guys who were in on that playtest were real WW fanboys, too.

Changeling was just a bad game, and I don't think more time would have helped.

I disagree. Had many a fine campaign with that game back in the day. Some people just don't have the right tastes or imagination to pull it off.