What system do you think would be best for running the Original (Ie. the real) Battlestar Galactica?
For that matter, what do you think would be the best system for running that sham that calls itself the "new" BSG? The BSG rpg? Something else?
RPGPundit
I know that HardNova 2 was used with much success, but as to the best... I don't know, but Star Frontiers would also do a great job.
Original? Star Wars D6--its very similar feel to Star Wars, and the game would handle it well enough.
For the new one? I don't know I've seen maybe three episodes---from that probably Call of Cthulhu since what little I saw seemed to be worried about the Sanity of characters, and their reactions to the "secret" cylons among them/being cylons in secret.
Quote from: RPGPunditWhat system do you think would be best for running the Original (Ie. the real) Battlestar Galactica?
And just this morning I was thinking about how you're at your best when you're being intelligent and thoughtful, yet still provocative, instead of just playing the hamfisted oaf. :D
QuoteFor that matter, what do you think would be the best system for running that sham that calls itself the "new" BSG?
Just to indulge your predilection for public masturbation for a moment, this is totally a job for a Forgie game. The new BSG is all about pushing comfort limits, behavioral escalation, and raising stakes. I don't want to suggest anything so trite as
Poison'd, but after the third season I'm beginning to think it might do the job. I'm honestly not familiar enough with the stable of Forge-style games to comment, but
The Mountain Witch comes to mind, with its trust and dark secret mechanics.
Hmm. Maybe someone could get some mileage out of
Unknown Armies or
NEMESIS with their Madness Meters.
!i!
I think HardNova would work great for the new BSG, not use about the the old series I've never seen it.
I'd second d6 Star Wars for the original. For the remake I'd probably go for something Forgey for the reasons Ian states.
I wouldn't use the licenced game, I think they get all the trappings and none of the point, like many licenced games. Edit: UA is actually also quite a good suggestion.
Quote from: BalbinusI wouldn't use the licenced game, I think they get all the trappings and none of the point, like many licenced games.
Yes. Though I haven't seen the official BSG RPG, that was my concern. Licensed games tend to amount to little more than stat blocks and photo stills.
!i!
Quote from: Ian Absentiathis is totally a job for a Forgie game.
Oh come on, you've been around long enough to know that he doesn't want to hear this :)
Quote from: pigames.netOh come on, you've been around long enough to know that he doesn't want to hear this :)
Honestly, I figured that he might as well kill two birds with one stone. A television show he hates modelled by a game style he hates. It'd be like cake and ice cream to him. He's probably off in the lavatory "releasing some tension" right now.
!i!
(P.S. I thought your suggestion of
Star Frontiers for the original BSG was an awfully good one. I remember trying to use
Traveller back in the day, but it didn't really translate well. Sure,
Book 5: High Guard modelled the Galactica and the Viper fighters beautifully, but the
Trav characters weren't exaggerated enough.)
All these sorts of questions boil down to the one basic principle: what feel is it you want from the game? What aspects of the show do you see as important to model?
If you're a system-don't-matter guy, one system is as good as the next.
Quote from: Ian Absentia(P.S. I thought your suggestion of Star Frontiers for the original BSG was an awfully good one. I remember trying to use Traveller back in the day, but it didn't really translate well. Sure, Book 5: High Guard modelled the Galactica and the Viper fighters beautifully, but the Trav characters weren't exaggerated enough.)
I think it still holds up as a great game. I don't remember ever having as much fun as I did with Star Frontiers. Traveller just never really do it for me. I liked it, but it just didn't have the same entertainment factor as Star Frontiers.
The new BSG is certainly pretentious and full of itself enough to be a Forge game...
RPGPundit
See? See? I thought you'd agree! Like chocolate and peanut butter. :haw:
!i!
Quote from: RPGPunditWhat system do you think would be best for running the Original (Ie. the real) Battlestar Galactica?
Another vote for d6 Star Wars. Possibly Savage Worlds, too.
QuoteFor that matter, what do you think would be the best system for running that sham that calls itself the "new" BSG? The BSG rpg? Something else?
The new series is darker, more serious and more character driven. Maybe Unknown Armies or Over the Edge.
Paranoia might be an interesting fit, too.
Starcluster could do both if you wanted it to.
Otherwise, the usual suspects, GURPS, HERO, Spacemaster.
You might even try the new BSG rpg for the new BSG (shocking notion but still...)
Quote from: David JohansenYou might even try the new BSG rpg for the new BSG (shocking notion but still...)
No, no. That would suck. On principle alone.
!i!
Quote from: David JohansenYou might even try the new BSG rpg for the new BSG (shocking notion but still...)
Well, that's possible, and I was curious to see what the fanboys thought of the new licensed game..
RPGPundit
Quote from: BalbinusI'd second d6 Star Wars for the original. For the remake I'd probably go for something Forgey for the reasons Ian states.
I wouldn't use the licenced game, I think they get all the trappings and none of the point, like many licenced games. Edit: UA is actually also quite a good suggestion.
I'm going to disagree a bit with Max.
The best instrument to the original series is a .45 ACP to the head, as I find it awful :D Joking aside, D6 SW is my first choice.
But I wouldn't use necessarily a Forgie game for the new BSG: I think that the Synergy system from Blue Planet would do a superb job. It's gritty, you can gauge the power level of the PCs, and does sci - fi great.
Pundit, I´ve got it!
It´s about fighter pilots, so take Mechwarrior I or II!
Or even a modded Aces in Spades!
D6 Star Wars would indeed lend itself well to the space-op silliness of the first show. Me, I'd use FATE with Fugde 10h anniversary's dogfight rules, but that's a matter or personnal preference.
As for the new show, I can't say since I haven't figured out what it's all about beyond fucked-up love triangles and people taking themselves far too seriously. ;)
Star Frontiers. You'd have to stat up the Cylons and space craft of course, but SF with Knighthawks added in would work a treat.
Quote from: ImperatorI'm going to disagree a bit with Max.
The best instrument to the original series is a .45 ACP to the head, as I find it awful :D Joking aside, D6 SW is my first choice.
But I wouldn't use necessarily a Forgie game for the new BSG: I think that the Synergy system from Blue Planet would do a superb job. It's gritty, you can gauge the power level of the PCs, and does sci - fi great.
Synergy might work actually, good call.
And I agree on the original series, I thought it was appalling shite, but I couldn't be arsed to have the potential argument if someone took offence.
Quote from: BalbinusSynergy might work actually, good call.
And I agree on the original series, I thought it was appalling shite, but I couldn't be arsed to have the potential argument if someone took offence.
I'm relieved that we agreed on this, because every time we disagree I take it as a bad omen, or something :D
I don't really see any feature of the series that needs an special mechanic to implement it. I just think that the series tend to the gritty side, but nothing more.
I haven't seen the new series, so I can't comment on that one, but as for the original series, both HN][ and SC2 could do it, but neither one is optimal. I would suggest Star Frontiers, D6 Space, or Lightspeed to get the right feel.
As for Aces in Spades as the dogfighting rules, that would work if you dropped the use of altitude as potential energy, but you'd have to make new ships, new weapons, and new effects. It may not be worth the trouble.
-clash
Quote from: ImperatorThe best instrument to the original series is a .45 ACP to the head, as I find it awful :D Joking aside, D6 SW is my first choice.
.
But it had a robot dog! A robot dog- and that guy from Bonanza!
Quote from: SettembriniIt´s about fighter pilots, so take Mechwarrior I or II!
By Jove, I think you're on to something. The basic adventure model is certainly the same.
!i!
Quote from: AosBut it had a robot dog! A robot dog- and that guy from Bonanza!
Lorne Green. The real Adama, the one that had balls; not like the apparently ineffectual pussy they have now.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPunditLorne Green. The real Adama, the one that had balls; not like the apparently ineffectual pussy they have now.
RPGPundit
If you say that this Adama has no balls, you really have not watched even the intro credits. Adama is
the badassest.
I have never quite grokked these sorts of threads since I am more of a "Does it do what you need" as opposed to any sort of "feel" where system is concerned. So, my contribution would be to list the aspects of new or old BSG and ask for systems that support that.
1. Ship to ship combat. Mostly fighter but with some capital ship combat.
- Personally, I would look at a minis system I could fit into the RPG or along side the RPG like Silent Death or SFB.
2. Personal interaction. Starbuck going down to the planet, Apollo inspecting ships, Boomer doing whatever he does.
- Let's face it, this could be handled by just about any system. I would find it helpful to have a system that statted some sort of blaster.
3. Cylons. The big question being if you allow them as player characters. Starbuck rewired one to be his buddy in one episode. Still, generally, they would be your enemy.
-Again, any system that supports monsters. It would help to have AI to model the Cylons after. A bit more tricky with the new BSG but the OP said he is not interested in the new BSG.
4. New Planets. They were running and a big part was finding new space phenomenon.
- A space phenomenon generator might be handy. This is a pretty weak requirement since I think this should be the domain of the GM.
5. Alien/Super Beings. Some sort of white floaty guys appeared in the later episodes. They would kidnap Apollo and Starbuck and turn their uniforms white.
- Again, any system that supports aliens or even different races. There was a half-breed that came out of this so you might want to support plying that race or a watered down version.
So, my thoughts based on the above. Pick you favorite RPG, it might help if you picked you fav sci-fi rpg but I don't think it really matters. Find a space fighter minis game and use that with it. Since ship to ship combat is so important tot he setting you would be well advised to go to a system that specializes in the genre.
Bill
For the old BSG, as much as I would like to use Star Frontiers. I think D6 would be a better fit. I dont care for the new one. So I really could care less. But if I had to choose. Maybe GURPS. With all the disadvantages and advantages you can model the characters like the show better.
Well, BSG was informed by Star Wars, which is a nice way of saying "Let's get us somma that gravy!". So anything that would do Star Wars with a minimum of hassle (sans The Force natch) would be a good choice.
So say we all.
*snrk*
Quote from: ImperatorIf you say that this Adama has no balls, you really have not watched even the intro credits. Adama is the badassest.
nBSG's Adama doesn't just
have balls. He chews on brass ones for breakfast, with teeth of flint and fire.
Okay, that's too much. But he is quite full of grit, that Eddy Olmos Adama.
EDITED to make sense because uh-
bwuuuuh.
Exalted!!
Wait.. I was having an rpg.net flashback.
Actually
Savage Worlds + Silent Death for the win!
SW plugs into SD pretty easily and directly and SD is the best space opera fighter game ever written. On the downside, there's no rules for anything bigger than an escort cruiser so the Galactica would have to be treated as a terrain feature with guns.
Quote from: David JohansenOn the downside, there's no rules for anything bigger than an escort cruiser so the Galactica would have to be treated as a terrain feature with guns.
That's a drawback? Generally, that's a pretty accurate model.
Where does one find
Silent Death these days?
!i!
(P.S. Oh, and the game
Renegade Legion pops to mind, though I never played it when it was in print.)
Quote from: RPGPunditLorne Green. The real Adama, the one that had balls; not like the apparently ineffectual pussy they have now.
Sorry Pundit, but you waaaay missed the mark there. Of all the things to criticise nBSG over (and there are a few), Edward James Olmos is
not one of them. I loved Lorne Greene in the original, but the Adama in the new series is the absolute personification of grit and steel.
IMHO, if you accept that new series is not an attempt to re-make the original... if you watch it on it's own merits and not try and compare it to the original... if you treat it as a stand alone sci-fi series... it's damn good. Particularly once you get past the mini series.
Quite possibly my second favourite sci fi series of all time, after Firefly.
GURPS , of course.
Ignore the whacko religious-stuff and hallucinations - thats specific to 4 or 5 characters on the show. The majority of the RagTag Fleet are having their own equally interesting aventures that could run by almost any really good game system that does generic space Sci-Fi stuff pretty well.
Over on the SJG forums there have already been at least 20 threads where people are converting that setting to GURPS 4/e over the past 2 years. (Maybe double that , I don't always see every thread over there.)
Oh, and the Edward James Olmos Adama makes the Lorne Greene Adama look weak. Besides I gotta root for a guy whose frst name is Ed (the actor) and who wears glasses while ordering a nuclear missile strike.
- Ed C.
Quote from: David JohansenActually
Savage Worlds + Silent Death for the win!
SW plugs into SD pretty easily and directly and SD is the best space opera fighter game ever written. On the downside, there's no rules for anything bigger than an escort cruiser so the Galactica would have to be treated as a terrain feature with guns.
That would be good, but I'd try to see if I could get by with the dogfight rules from the SW Pulp Toolkit before I went to Silent Death, unless I knew in advance my players were going to be heavily into that part.
SW is great for cybernetic dogs, bug people, and deranged robot gunslingers.
Edward James Olmos could never have kept those Cartwright boys under control. I'm not sure what you guys are thinkin.
Oh, I'm sure SW dog fights are adequate, but SD is perfect. They even published rules for it in Starwars Gamer, so yes, we can play a squadron of X-wings engaging a squadron of Night Hawks. I'd want Pit Vipers against A-Wings of course.
I can't recall Vipers having any kind of Torpedos so I'd probably make them a high thrust (17 maybe?) attrition fighter with two Med Lasers and decent armour.
Quote from: ImperatorIf you say that this Adama has no balls, you really have not watched even the intro credits. Adama is the badassest.
From what I've heard, he's a loser who's "deeply conflicted" and unsure of himself and the consequences of his actions, and in other words totally failing in all the leadership qualities and guiding wisdom that the original Adama had.
Also, I'm willing to bet anything (total stab in the dark having never watched the series ever) that anytime he does make a definitive decision where he's sure of himself it all goes horribly wrong (and I'd bet probably someone else, probably a female character's, idea would have been right and saved lives), and I'll bet dollars to donuts that he has a fucked up set of personal relationships with his family. How do I know this? Because dumbasses who try to "radically reinvent" series by being all "dark" and "iconoclastic" are very, very predictable.
RPGPundit
At least in the pilot movie, the New Adama was a political emo kid, and all problems he had directly related to family problems.
It was quite pathetic.
Sett,
You're confusing "Apollo" with "Husker".
Pundit,
No, No , ...and NOPE.
Many times the female authority figure makes some VERY wrong decisions and Adama calls her on it .
It might really help to watch the thing with an open mind.
Oh, and I'd NEVER recommend a Forge-style game to simulate the show ....a thousand times NO on that one. Hell, I'll never recommend a Forge RPG for anything.
As for complete disclosure : As a young teen I watched the Original BSGweek to week, two thirds the way through it I felt very disappointed. The writers of the oBSG wasted so many oppurtunities.
- Ed C.
Quote from: RPGPunditFrom what I've heard, he's a loser who's "deeply conflicted" and unsure of himself and the consequences of his actions, and in other words totally failing in all the leadership qualities and guiding wisdom that the original Adama had.
No, it isn't. He makes hard decissions, and carry them to the end. He also have ethics, though, so sometimes he makes things that he would prefer not to be obliged to.
Adama makes people want to be better. Heck, I want to serve in the BSG right now. Under his command.
Point for you in one thing: Adama and Apollo have a bad relationship. But not in the way you think.
Uh huh. Whatever. Lorne Greene was the guy who LED. The guy who was RIGHT. He was the one who always held the high ground, who always guided everyone and kept everything together.
Your new adama is a morally-relativist twisted-copy just like your Starbuck, your Boomer, and your Apollo (and, I would presume your Tigh if he even exists); all just making a mockery of the original series by making it into the exact moral OPPOSITE of what the original series was.
The original series was all about humanity seeking hope against impossible odds. The new series is apparently about humans being suicide bombers, everyone betraying everyone else, men being wimps, women smoking cigars and being the only ones allowed to be tough, and the Cylons being not "really bad" guys.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit.................
The original series was all about humanity seeking hope against impossible odds. ................
RPGPundit
...and the current, better written series is also exactly that.
Just much more believable.
- Ed C.
Quote from: KoltarJust much more believable.
- Ed C.
If Spiderman 3 is the reality you live in, sure.
Quote from: SettembriniIf Spiderman 3 is the reality you live in, sure.
Still haven't seen that one....
Reality I live in the current
BSG is better written and acted than the earlier one. I even discuissed it with Richard Hatch. He reluctantly agreed that he is getting better material as Tom Zarek than he ever did as the original Apollo.
- Ed C.
Quote from: KoltarStill haven't seen that one....
Reality I live in the current BSG is better written and acted than the earlier one.
That, my friend, has got nothing to do with the believability of the depicted fiction.
And yes, New Galactica has surely high production efforts in certain areas. I´m pretty positive though, that they spend less on special FX than the old one did, but this is not my point here.
Quote from: RPGPunditUh huh. Whatever. Lorne Greene was the guy who LED. The guy who was RIGHT. He was the one who always held the high ground, who always guided everyone and kept everything together.
Your new adama is a morally-relativist twisted-copy just like your Starbuck, your Boomer, and your Apollo (and, I would presume your Tigh if he even exists); all just making a mockery of the original series by making it into the exact moral OPPOSITE of what the original series was.
The original series was all about humanity seeking hope against impossible odds. The new series is apparently about humans being suicide bombers, everyone betraying everyone else, men being wimps, women smoking cigars and being the only ones allowed to be tough, and the Cylons being not "really bad" guys.
RPGPundit
Disagree.
I agree with Koltar: better written, better acted, more believable at all, so I do care about them.
And mate, you have to see Adama leadership here to talk about hope against impossible odds, and being the badassest while you're at it. He's not a moral relativist AT ALL. He knows what's good and evil: it just happens that sometimes, doing the right thing is hard. And he's not a mannequin as the former Adama was.
Men are not wimps here: here, everyone is badass. Cylons are great. Humans are great. Space battles are showers of awesomity.
This BSG is not a parody of the former. It's not a remake. It's an entirely different series. Watch it as what it is. Mate, if you loved Rome you have to love this, really.
And Spiderman 3 is Thy Greatest Abomination Unto Thy Eyes of Thy Lordeth. Don't ever bring bak again.
Quote from: RPGPunditFrom what I've heard,
You have some detailed opinions about something you haven't even seen. I've seen it. In the new series, Adama isn't really anything like what you say. He shares many of the qualities of the Lorne Green version, but he's more obviously a military man. Greene's Adama always struck me as a civilian, despite his position. The new Adama really seems like he was a seasoned officer in charge of a powerful military vessel. Is he as black and white as the original? Well, no, he's more realistic - I mean, fuck, the Greene version was practically walking on water - but he certainly doesn't strike me as the Goth paragon you paint him as.
I´ve only seen the pilot, but in that, Adama is holding a speech that basically says: "I´m not sure if we humans do deserve to live at all."
If that´s "realistic" to you, I pity you.
That´s not military thinking, that´s Starbucks-sitting-sixteen-year-olds-with-che-guevara-t-shirt-who-ponders-if-he-maybe-stops-eating-meat.
Alas, I´ve only seen the pilot, but that speech (and the childish treatment of alcoholism and pathetic wannabe portrayal of military goings) was enough to kill the franchise for me.
The pilot wanted to be adult, but firmly remained adolescent. And that´s the main problem here. Don´t know if the show redeemed itself after the pilot.
The old series was a kid´s show, that was light hearted, but had elements to turn it int a family show.
Quote from: SettembriniThe old series was a kid´s show, that was light hearted, but had elements to turn it int a family show.
A retarded kid's show, you'll mean. I watched the old series when I was very young, and I founf the robodog an insult to my intelligence. Actually, I hated Phoenix (Dirk Benedict) in the A - Team just because he reminded me of that crock of shit.
Quote from: KoltarAs for complete disclosure : As a young teen I watched the Original BSGweek to week, two thirds the way through it I felt very disappointed. The writers of the oBSG wasted so many oppurtunities.
- Ed C.
You wan to know why you were disappointed? Because american tv in the seventies and early eighties was horrible. For christ sakes Dukes of Hazard was a prime time hit! Not exactly shakespear there. Television was dumbed down. (Some might argue that hasnt changed) Then you compare it to television from the UK in the same period. They brought you shows like The Sandbaggers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sandbaggers). Far more intelligent, and well written television.
I was 13, then 14 at the time, reading things like ANALOG and F & SF magazine for fun on the weekends.
So, yeah even at that age I knew it was something that could have been done much better.
- Ed C.
Quote from: Ronin... Then you compare it to television from the UK in the same period. They brought you shows like The Sandbaggers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sandbaggers). Far more intelligent, and well written television.
British telly tends to be short series of programs, like six, eight, ten or twelve. Which means you can have a small team of writers or even just individual writers, and you don't dilute the genuis that makes a series good just through having to stretch the story out for 24 (or however many) episodes. For proof of why American television should take a long hard look at this, I refer you to Lost, 'new' Galactica, Desperate Housewives and Heroes; storylines that just aren't strong enough to be strung out that thinly.
The down side for translating our telly for you Americans is that your channels are so wedded to the long series idea that they don't really take to our series. And its a shame; America has produced some excellent comedy, but nothing with the wit, humour and intelligence of, say, Blackadder, Red Dwarf or Dinnerladies. You have some scintillating talent for sci-fi writing, but not once has anynone produced any science fiction television over there that compares with Blakes 7 or Day of the Triffids for grit and claustrophobic drama. And you have some excellent drama ideas, but there simply isn't any way you could produce 24 episode series as well thought out, consistently strong and utterly enthralling as, say, Life on Mars or I Claudius.
The problem is simple really; you've got a massive pool of talent, no shortage of creativity, but the model television series are made to over there spreads even that far, far too thinly.
Quote from: ImperatorA retarded kid's show, you'll mean. I watched the old series when I was very young, and I founf the robodog an insult to my intelligence. Actually, I hated Phoenix (Dirk Benedict) in the A - Team just because he reminded me of that crock of shit.
I think you mean
Face, not Phoenix ;)
StarWars d6 would be a good fit for the out-of-ship stuff.
Aerotech might work well (if slowly) for the dogfighting.
The Babylon 5 RPG (!) actually has a really good system for space combat with larger ships and would handle the Galactica and swarms of fighters very well. :)
Quote from: CabBritish telly tends to be short series of programs, like six, eight, ten or twelve. Which means you can have a small team of writers or even just individual writers, and you don't dilute the genuis that makes a series good just through having to stretch the story out for 24 (or however many) episodes. For proof of why American television should take a long hard look at this, I refer you to Lost, 'new' Galactica, Desperate Housewives and Heroes; storylines that just aren't strong enough to be strung out that thinly.
The down side for translating our telly for you Americans is that your channels are so wedded to the long series idea that they don't really take to our series. And its a shame; America has produced some excellent comedy, but nothing with the wit, humour and intelligence of, say, Blackadder, Red Dwarf or Dinnerladies. You have some scintillating talent for sci-fi writing, but not once has anynone produced any science fiction television over there that compares with Blakes 7 or Day of the Triffids for grit and claustrophobic drama. And you have some excellent drama ideas, but there simply isn't any way you could produce 24 episode series as well thought out, consistently strong and utterly enthralling as, say, Life on Mars or I Claudius.
The problem is simple really; you've got a massive pool of talent, no shortage of creativity, but the model television series are made to over there spreads even that far, far too thinly.
I totally agree with you on that. But I was refering to programs in the seveties and early eighties. Most of the shows were episode by episode basis. It was always the same characters and stuff. But each episode were independent in that you did have to watch the previous episode to know what was going on. The what was being written for american tv back then was dumbed down trash. While in other places it was written far better. Not diluted for the common denominator. That was my point. The reason Koltar thought the original could have been written better. Was that it could have been. But it wasnt because of how tv was written for american audiences back then.
Quote from: Dr Rotwang!Well, BSG was informed by Star Wars, which is a nice way of saying "Let's get us somma that gravy!".
Actually, oBSG was more informed by Star Trek: Originally conceived of as
Bible Stories... IN SPAAAACE! It later became
Mormon Stories... IN SPAAAACE!
With all the Mormon links and backstory of the old BSG, one would think that Testament d20 or something would be the best game to use.
http://www.kobol.com/archives/BG-FAQ.html#G1 (read section on "Adam's Arc")
http://www.kobol.com/archives/BG-FAQ.html#E21 (oBSG = Mormonism with the serial numbers filed... well, left intact actually)
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billotto/Mormon_N_BSG.html (more on the Mormonism - BSG connection)
I prefer the new BSG because it hand-waves all the LDS crap and gets down to hard choices and cool, raw story.
Systemwise, I'd personally use something like Savage Worlds if I was going to play out the combat and stuff of the miniseries and early shows of the New BSG: Fast combat-minis rules and the like that SW gives are pretty hot.
If I was playing a game where all the PCs were higher-ups in the social hierarchy of the survivors, it'd be something like Primetime Adventures or AMBER.
Quote from: Andy KActually, oBSG was more informed by Star Trek: Originally conceived of as Bible Stories... IN SPAAAACE! It later became Mormon Stories... IN SPAAAACE!
OK, I'll get down with that. I guess I meant "spurred into production by the production of"
Star Wars.
QuoteWith all the Mormon links and backstory of the old BSG, one would think that Testament d20 or something would be the best game to use.
:rimshot:
I would use Star Wars D6 for both oBSG and nBSG since its just Star Wars with the serial numbers filed off (I would also use it for the a RPG based on the Buck Rodgers TV show of the same period). Seriously you don't need a new or unique system to model drama, just roleplay it like you are supposed to.
Quote from: Dr Rotwang!:rimshot:
Ah, ok, yeah that was pretty cheesy. And in fact in my rabid glee to point out the Mormons in Space connection (because oBSG sucked. Seriously (http://youtube.com/watch?v=EdqIA1zOhao).), I provided nBSG RPG info but not oBSG info.
OK, jokes aside ("You need a system like Exalted, so that you can jump really high with your wrist-bracelets and help neighborhood kids win their softball games" (actual plot of an episode of BSG:1980)), if someone held a gun to my head to run oBSG, I'd run it as a pure end-to-end Military Operations game.
All the PCs would be pilots. And the game would use minis and Savage Worlds as a rules base: Fast and cinematic piloting/dogfighting without all the crunch and "reality" of 3d space (no real need for it, this is BSG not Homeworld). I'd have it as a series of missions against the Cylons, with "scramble moments" in the middle of the role-playing drama. And I'd turn up the character death. Make some missions (not all, but some) hard where it's expected that 1-2 PCs are going to kick it in order to complete the overall mission... but with a light system making a new character wouldn't be hard.
I'd turn down the testosterone and turn up the military weariness. The out-of-cockpit roleplaying would be about soldiers interacting with each other (team rivalry, inter-team competition, taking leave/vacation, etc).
To get prepared, I'd have the players make their PCs. Then I'd have them make a roster of other pilots on their team (3-4), then other notable pilots in the fleet (about 5-8), including "The Best Pilot" (which won't be a PC), "The Worst Pilot" (which won't be a PC). Then make a roster of about 3 lieutenants/higherups and give them names and personalities. Then come up with the names and simple description for about 3-5 civilian PCs, including love interests, kids-with-robodogs, etc. None of the above would be pre-statted, because if one PC kicks it, they can draw on one of the other characters in the above pool and make it their own.
-Andy
Re: the excellence of british TV- yeah some of it is great, and then there are things like Are you beinbg served?.
Now, I think we should get back to talking about the robot dog; not nearly enough attention has been given to this aspect of the old BSG.
Quote from: Andy KOK, jokes aside ... if someone held a gun to my head to run oBSG, I'd run it as a pure end-to-end Military Operations game.
All the PCs would be pilots. And the game would use minis and Savage Worlds as a rules base: Fast and cinematic piloting/dogfighting without all the crunch and "reality" of 3d space (no real need for it, this is BSG not Homeworld). I'd have it as a series of missions against the Cylons, with "scramble moments" in the middle of the role-playing drama. And I'd turn up the character death. Make some missions (not all, but some) hard where it's expected that 1-2 PCs are going to kick it in order to complete the overall mission... but with a light system making a new character wouldn't be hard.
To totally steal someone else's idea (and I won't even tell you whose), the characters' flight team would be Blue Squadron, the fellows who launch and land on the pod on the
opposite side of the Galactica from the more famous Red Squadron shown on the series. Every now and then the GM would treat the players to some R&R scheduled at the same time as Red Squadron so they could put the beat-down on Starbuck and the make on Sheba.
!i!
Quote from: AosRe: the excellence of british TV- yeah some of it is great, and then there are things like Are you beinbg served?.
Now, I think we should get back to talking about the robot dog...
Which might just make
Are You Being Served? worth watching without benefit of a bottle of Bacardi and a fist full of Percodan.
!i!
Quote from: KoltarStill haven't seen that one....
Reality I live in the current BSG is better written and acted than the earlier one. I even discuissed it with Richard Hatch. He reluctantly agreed that he is getting better material as Tom Zarek than he ever did as the original Apollo.
- Ed C.
There is no question that the original BSG was a flawed jewel, and that it suffered often from muddled writing and cheesy lines.
It doesn't follow that the new BSG was the way to solve that, by going all "dark" and postmodernist and no one is really "bad" or truly good.
I would have vastly preferred to see the sequel series that was originally being planned, where Hatch and Benedict would be back as Apollo and Starbuck and you'd get a more serious, more together version of the original series, but in the same original universe and with the same themes though, rather than themes that utterly betray the original's outlook.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Tyberious FunkI think you mean Face, not Phoenix ;)
I believe that in the spanish dubbing of the A-Team ("Los Magnificos!") he might have been called Phoenix...
RPGPundit
Quote from: SettembriniI´ve only seen the pilot, but in that, Adama is holding a speech that basically says: "I´m not sure if we humans do deserve to live at all."
If that´s "realistic" to you, I pity you.
That´s not military thinking, that´s Starbucks-sitting-sixteen-year-olds-with-
che-guevara-t-shirt-who-ponders-if-he-maybe-stops-eating-meat.
Alas, I´ve only seen the pilot, but that speech (and the childish treatment of alcoholism and pathetic wannabe portrayal of military goings) was enough to kill the franchise for me.
For me it didn't get that far. I was enthusiastic about a new BSG, until they announced that Starbuck was going to be turned into a woman. At that moment, I knew right away that the only thing they were going for was to purely shock and impress people with how much "this isn't like your father's Galactica", not to mention some stupid idea of "women can be tough too" (as if we didn't already fucking know that, or they couldn't have done that with some other character, it HAD to be Starbuck), and just to be iconoclastic and break down everything about the old series as much as possible.
So the utter inanity and direct assault on the existing fandom that was that decision was more than enough for me to be convinced that this show didn't bear watching. Not a single fucking episode.
I have read up quite a bit about it since then, and nothing I've read has convinced me to watch it, quite the contrary. The cylons aren't bad guys, the humans aren't good guys, Adama isn't sure humanity deserves to live, and they made Richard Hatch come back to play a scumbag politician instead of a hero; because of course, making him a hero would somehow validate existing real BSG fans, and why would they want to do that? Their entire point in the new is that there are no Heros.
RPGPundit
Alas, for all those who want believability and military sci-fi:
Aliens.
And even the quite illogical Space: Above & Bexond is far, far, far better at the exact same stuff BSG tries to do.
Old Cylons
(http://imgred.com/http://www.clubdesmonstres.com/cylon.jpg)
New Cylons
(http://imgred.com/http://weaknights.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/05/31/cylon.jpg)
Compare this with...
Old Cybermen
(http://imgred.com/http://www.btinternet.com/~reg.joy/images/Robots/cybermen.jpg)
New Cybermen
(http://imgred.com/http://shinymedia.blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/cybermen.jpg)
There are LOTS of shows with pretty girls in them. There are NOT a lot of shows with cool robots in them.
Why are there no cool robots in Battlestar Galactica?
The comparison is apt!
Quote from: RPGPunditFor me it didn't get that far. I was enthusiastic about a new BSG, until they announced that Starbuck was going to be turned into a woman. At that moment, I knew right away that the only thing they were going for was to purely shock and impress people with how much "this isn't like your father's Galactica", not to mention some stupid idea of "women can be tough too" (as if we didn't already fucking know that, or they couldn't have done that with some other character, it HAD to be Starbuck), and just to be iconoclastic and break down everything about the old series as much as possible.
I didn't know anything about it before I saw the pilot. I was trying to figure out what was going on. Is this 15 years later? Is it not connected? About halfway into it, I turned it off. It was so dumb and poorly directed. When they aired it again on NBC, I gave it another shot. It wasn't any better. The space scenes was so dull, the music and sound effects were crap, and all the characters I liked from the original were ruined. Why does everyone think that humanoid robots and that making former men into women are cool. The original cylons were the best. The thing I did like from it was how the cylons took control of the new technology, and that's why the Galactica could function.
Quote from: StuartWhy are there no cool robots in Battlestar Galactica?
There are, its only some of the Cylons that are made to look like humans to infiltrate. The actual 'robot' cylons in new galactica are pretty neat.
The New Cybermen look like the old Iron Man without a paint job.
-clash
Quote from: RPGPunditI believe that in the spanish dubbing of the A-Team ("Los Magnificos!") he might have been called Phoenix...
RPGPundit
Man, I love those Spanish translations, don't you?
HEAVY METAL = Universo De Fantasia = "Universe of Fantasy"
TOTAL RECALL = Vengador Del Futuro = "Avenger of the Future"
BABY'S DAY OUT = Cuidado! Bebe Suelto! = Caution, Baby On The Loose!
...uy, que la chingada.
EDIT: Corrected spelling, MISTER Bowley.
Quote from: Dr Rotwang!TOTAL RECALL = Vengador Del Futuro = "Avenge of the Future"
Vengador es "Avenger" en ingles, mi amigo!
-clash
Quote from: RPGPunditFor me it didn't get that far. I was enthusiastic about a new BSG, until they announced that Starbuck was going to be turned into a woman. At that moment, I knew right away that the only thing they were going for was to purely shock and impress people with how much "this isn't like your father's Galactica", not to mention some stupid idea of "women can be tough too" (as if we didn't already fucking know that, or they couldn't have done that with some other character, it HAD to be Starbuck), and just to be iconoclastic and break down everything about the old series as much as possible.
I think you are way overthinking things. I felt pretty much the same way... excited up until I learned that Starbuck was going to be a woman (Boomer too). Sounded waaaay too much over-reaching by the producers... a desperate attempt to be contemporary and hip. But then when I actually started watching the show, past the pilot mini-series which is a bit "meh", my opinion started to change.
I think the new Starbuck is a pretty good character in her own right. And Katie Sackoff does a good job. If the character was called anything
other than Starbuck... if it had been a character created specifically for the new series, the complaints about her would be almost non-existent. In that case, what is my beef? Just the name? If so, that's a pretty fucking lame excuse.
The same logic can be applied to other elements of the series. Does it go out of it's way to be grim and dark in a deliberate attempt to distinguish itself from the original? Maybe. But what if there had never been an original BSG? What if the new series was the
only BSG? And
that is when I started to enjoy the series.
QuoteSo the utter inanity and direct assault on the existing fandom that was that decision was more than enough for me to be convinced that this show didn't bear watching. Not a single fucking episode.
I have read up quite a bit about it since then, and nothing I've read has convinced me to watch it, quite the contrary. The cylons aren't bad guys, the humans aren't good guys, Adama isn't sure humanity deserves to live, and they made Richard Hatch come back to play a scumbag politician instead of a hero; because of course, making him a hero would somehow validate existing real BSG fans, and why would they want to do that? Their entire point in the new is that there are no Heros.
There are a lot of reasons to dislike the new series. But comparing it to the original is
not one of them. And seriously, dismissing a TV show without watching a single episode is plain stupid.
BOTH versions of the show basically portray "Aircraft Carrier in Space". For there to be a believable modern version - you would have to have women pilots just for the audience to relate.
In real life women ARE combat fighter jet pilots and even lead squadrons into battle. Many of the viewers would know this or might even have a friend or relative in the Air Force or Navy who knows a woman like that.
....oh and after meeting Dirk Benedict indirectly at a convention or two I have no problem with the part being re-cast in the modern version.
As someone else pointed out on another gaming forum, Katee Sackhoffhas noew played a character with the callsign of Starbuck for more onscreen hours than the older series was even on the air.
As for gameable stuff? Marine raids and attack using Raptors as the landing craft, resistance fighters stuvck back on enemy-held Caprica, a different warship escapes the intial attack...plenty of possibilities....
- Ed C.
Quote from: Tyberious FunkThere are a lot of reasons to dislike the new series. But comparing it to the original is not one of them. And seriously, dismissing a TV show without watching a single episode is plain stupid.
Of course its one of them!
You could argue that something like Bruce Baugh's "gamma world" is a passable post-apocalyptic game of its own if you conveniently forget that he stole the name Gamma World in order to create something that bore no resemblance to the original RPG and in the process violated everything GW stood for in making said game with said title.
The same applies for BSG; or would apply to say, Superman if you redid Superman as an alcoholic wife-beater, or Lord of the Rings where Sauron was actually just misunderstood, or say Star Trek if you redid startrek to be about an evil federation oppressing innocent alien races and made Kirk a woman.
You can't just "forget" when a series borrows a license and then butchers it. Taking the name of something requires being true to the concept of the original story, at least making an effort to be; and not intentionally raping everything the story stands for just to try to claim that you're "edgy".
RPGPundit
Quote from: Koltar....oh and after meeting Dirk Benedict indirectly at a convention or two I have no problem with the part being re-cast in the modern version.
As someone else pointed out on another gaming forum, Katee Sackhoffhas noew played a character with the callsign of Starbuck for more onscreen hours than the older series was even on the air.
Oh really? So lets say Rick Berman (sic?) took it upon himself to re-do Star Trek the Original Series.
Let's say he had a female actress play Kirk, made Spock a secretly violent psychopath, made Scotty a drug addict, and decided that the Klingons would from now on be a culture of female-dominated transvestites?
If said series ended up having more screen time than the original ST, would that now mean that Bunny Larue or whoever would have more claim to being Captain Kirk than William Shatner?
There's only one Starbuck, ever.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPunditOf course its one of them!
Yeah, you've totally over-reacted to the new BSG, and you've totally exaggerated the merit of the original. I think this is one of your provocative little acts that you put on from time to time when you star to worry that things are going too smoothely and that people will stop seeing this forum as being "edgy".
!i!
Pundit,
That analogy of yours doesn't really work. First off, Rick Berman and Paramount have basically burned their bridges with each other.
A much more valid comparison is this: an unknown or young producer/director/writer OR someone like J.J, Abrams or Joss Whedon gets permission and the go ahead to do a NEW Star Trek series. They go right back to the original concept and premise - as if NBC's standards and practices and other suits there never interfered. This new Producer has a Captain Pike, with a 1st Officer named Number One, Spock is junior officer (maybe played by someone like Zachary Quinto)
Thats the equivalence to what has beern done with current Galactica - they went back to the basic premise. its what original BSG could have been if they did it intelligently.
Oh and some people already think that Kirk, McCoy, and Scotty already bordered on alcoholic behavior basaed on what we saw in the original classic episodes. to me thats a toss up . Was good 'ol James T. Kirk a social drinker or did he have a problem with the bottle ? I could honestly see him and saul Tigh getting drunk together at a starport bar without much suspension of disbelief.
...and i really liked that show as a kid too.
- Ed C.
Quote from: RPGPunditOh really? So lets say Rick Berman (sic?) took it upon himself to re-do Star Trek the Original Series.
Let's say he had a female actress play Kirk, made Spock a secretly violent psychopath, made Scotty a drug addict, and decided that the Klingons would from now on be a culture of female-dominated transvestites?
If said series ended up having more screen time than the original ST, would that now mean that Bunny Larue or whoever would have more claim to being Captain Kirk than William Shatner?
Depends, I suppose. Would this theoretical new Star Trek be any good? Would the new Kirk be an interesting, well developed and well acted character? If so, what do I care about any other preceding version?
What if they changed the names of the main characters in the new BSG and called the series
Battlestar Galactica: The Next Generation, tweaked slightly to accomodate a different timeline, but kept the episodes essentially the same as what we've seen to date?
Somehow Star Trek: TNG is acceptable, but the new BSG isn't?
QuoteThere's only one Starbuck, ever.
RPGPundit
To you? Sure... you haven't watched a single episode. So your opinion on the matter counts for... zip.
Quote from: RPGPunditThere's only one Starbuck, ever.
So no Bond other than Connery is any good? Richard Greene is the only man to play Robin Hood? No one but Olivier should portray Henry V on screen?
You're being a bit unfair on new galactica. Its not the best show, but some individual episodes have been very watchable. And in truth, thats as much as you can say for the original.
Pundit, posting detailed critiques of a show you have never seen is a great way to make some really dumb statements.
You're comments on the new Adama are simply wrong, it's not how the character works in the show, and that's just one example.
You wish they hadn't made a new show and used an old title, fine, actually so do I. But an irrational hatred of a tv show based on its title is, well, irrational.
There are reasons not to like the show, not everybody does, but yours make it painfully clear you've not seen it. Most of your posts are like someone criticising Star Trek Next Generation for embracing British hard sf and making the Vulcans empathic, they're that off-beam.
Quote from: KoltarPundit,
That analogy of yours doesn't really work. First off, Rick Berman and Paramount have basically burned their bridges with each other.
A much more valid comparison is this: an unknown or young producer/director/writer OR someone like J.J, Abrams or Joss Whedon gets permission and the go ahead to do a NEW Star Trek series. They go right back to the original concept and premise - as if NBC's standards and practices and other suits there never interfered. This new Producer has a Captain Pike, with a 1st Officer named Number One, Spock is junior officer (maybe played by someone like Zachary Quinto)
Thats the equivalence to what has beern done with current Galactica - they went back to the basic premise. its what original BSG could have been if they did it intelligently.
That's bullshit. This is NOT Glen Larsen's Galactica. Its nothing like it at all.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Tyberious FunkDepends, I suppose. Would this theoretical new Star Trek be any good? Would the new Kirk be an interesting, well developed and well acted character? If so, what do I care about any other preceding version?
What if they changed the names of the main characters in the new BSG and called the series Battlestar Galactica: The Next Generation, tweaked slightly to accomodate a different timeline, but kept the episodes essentially the same as what we've seen to date?
Somehow Star Trek: TNG is acceptable, but the new BSG isn't?
ST:TNG was a sequel. It occured in the same universe, with a different crew (instead of superimposing itself on the original crew with brand new actors and characters, basically keeping just the name and rank but nothing else), and played on many of the same themes. You can argue whether it was a bit better written than TOS, or whether it was a bit more boring than TOS (both of which are probably true, imo) but its still something that is a continuance.
The new Dr.Who series is an even better example. They didn't "radically reimagine" the Doctor. Instead, its the same Doctor we've always known and loved (of course, new regeneration), the same TARDIS just with a different inside set, and the stories and themes are largely the same. It honours everything about the original Doctor Who series, and yet presents Doctor Who in a more up-to-date kind of way, and even introduces some new elements.
THAT'S how you do a new series out of an old license; not by butchering everything about the characters, setting, plot, and themes, and then expecting existing fans to thank you for that.
RPGPundit
Quote from: CabSo no Bond other than Connery is any good? Richard Greene is the only man to play Robin Hood? No one but Olivier should portray Henry V on screen?
You're being a bit unfair on new galactica. Its not the best show, but some individual episodes have been very watchable. And in truth, thats as much as you can say for the original.
No, you don't get it. If it had been the same Starbuck with a different actor, that would have been acceptable. I'd have questioned the need given that Benedict is still around and healthy and all, but let's say they wanted to retell the original story, and not do a sequel, and Benedict would be too old, ok, fine.
If the CHARACTER of Starbuck was the same, but with a different actor, that'd be fine. But to take a character that has nothing to do with the original character (other than the Cigars, apparently) and then add the name Starbuck to it (and not even as the actual name, or even a nickname, but a callsign), is nothing more than intentionally murdering a character. Which is what these guys sought out to do in almost everything they did, to butcher the original series and make it into its sick opposite.
RPGPundit
Pundy, the new BSG is the "Mirror, Mirror" version of the old BSG. Some characters get tits instead of getting goatees. Deal with it.
Balbinus put his finger on the issue -- the producers created a fundamentally new show, and quite possibly should have given it a new name. What they did was use character and ship names as reference points, then jumped off on a radically different tangent. If you don't like that concept, that's fine -- you're in good company, because lots of people don't like it. However, where lots of other people have a leg up on you is that they've watched the show and know what they're complaining about, or they haven't watched it on principle and know enough to keep their mouths shut.
Look, I don't like the concept behind Heroes. I think it's a stupid show that's totally unappealing to me. But, you know, I've never actually watched the show, so as much as I've read about it I know that my opinion doesn't really amount to much. So, I keep my mouth shut and let other people enjoy it.
!i!
Quote from: BalbinusPundit, posting detailed critiques of a show you have never seen is a great way to make some really dumb statements.
You're comments on the new Adama are simply wrong, it's not how the character works in the show, and that's just one example.
You wish they hadn't made a new show and used an old title, fine, actually so do I. But an irrational hatred of a tv show based on its title is, well, irrational.
There are reasons not to like the show, not everybody does, but yours make it painfully clear you've not seen it. Most of your posts are like someone criticising Star Trek Next Generation for embracing British hard sf and making the Vulcans empathic, they're that off-beam.
That could only possibly be true if everything I've read about the new series was lying.
Let's just borrow from Wikipedia, shall we?
Point I: "
it rejects the traditional televised science fiction styles of Star Trek (after which the original Battlestar Galactica series was conceived) in favor of what executive producer Ronald D. Moore calls "naturalistic science fiction""
And what I would call bullshit fake edginess.
Point II: "
shedding the light-hearted action/adventure style of the original show"
So instead of a series about adventure and survival we get a story about "edgy character drama".
Point III: "show's heroes as being part of a "flawed" humanity", "many characters struggle with deep personal flaws; for example, Adama and his son have a profoundly dysfunctional relationship while Colonel Tigh is an alcoholic"
Are you claiming these things aren't true?! I mean holy shit, I hadn't seen this until now but I pretty well fucking called it, didn't I?
Point IV: "an exploration of moral and ethical issues brought up by the War on Terrorism. The show has dealt with Cylon and human suicide bombers, the torture of prisoners, and a struggle motivated by intense religious differences."
So instead of the Cylons being the force out to wipe out humanity and the humans being, well,
humanity with all the good and noble that is implied in the term we end up with them and us being equally evil, the Cylons aren't really so bad, and everyone is wrong. Doesn't that pretty much sum it up?
I mean come on, motherfuckers, you guys want to pretend that its the same show, then answer me this: Are the Cylons absolutely evil?
Point V: "differences in casting in terms of ethnicity and gender, most notably the character of Starbuck"
They ruined Starbuck, the best character of the original series, and one of the list of best sci-fi characters ever. That by itself would be justification enough to never see a single episode of this series.
Point VI: "the Twelve Colonies now closely resembling contemporary 21st century Western culture, with names and costumes often indistinguishable from other television shows"
So gone is all the interesting cultural elements, the mythology created behind the series, all of that is wiped out so instead we get "The O.C.... in Spaaaaace".
Fucking hurrah.
Point VII:" Time described Battlestar Galactica as "a ripping sci-fi allegory of the war on terror", lots of other references to news stories pointing out how trendy the new series is for making a bunch of references to how bad Iraq is, blah blah blah
What the fuck is this?! Its pathetic! Its cheap sensationalism and making stupid references to current events in a way that will almost certainly mean that 20 years from now this so-called "galactica" will mean fuck all to the average person.
And don't try to fucking claim that this is just the media's take on it! Ron Moore himself has apparently said that "the Cylons have aspects of Al Qaeda, the Catholic Church, and America" (apparently everything the typical hollywood producer thinks of as bad, probably in ascending order of magnitude).
So please, quit trying to claim that just because I refuse to watch the series that it somehow does honour to the original.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Ian AbsentiaLook, I don't like the concept behind Heroes. I think it's a stupid show that's totally unappealing to me. But, you know, I've never actually watched the show, so as much as I've read about it I know that my opinion doesn't really amount to much. So, I keep my mouth shut and let other people enjoy it.
!i!
The difference there is that Heroes does not misrepresent any existing license that you are a fan of. I agree that you should shut the fuck up about something like that, other then perhaps the odd quip, because its no big deal.
I mean, for example, let's say I don't like Journeyman. Fine, I can say I don't like it and all, its a free country, but there's little point to doing more than leaving it there.
On the other hand, let's say that the producers of Journeyman had used the exact same storyline they had right now, but had called the series Doctor Who. There I, and all other Doctor Who fans, would have a pretty clear and evident fucking right to bitch about it till the fucking end of time!
That's the case here; if they didn't want fans of the REAL Galactica to be mad and say so, they shouldn't have fucking called it BSG!
RPGPundit
I wish I could figure out how to turn internet arguments into energy.
Of course that if I did, I couldn't tell anyone. I'd just have to keep my secret to myself, there in my giant house built out of gold ingots.
Quote from: Dr Rotwang!I wish I could figure out how to turn internet arguments into energy.
Of course that if I did, I couldn't tell anyone. I'd just have to keep my secret to myself, there in my giant house built out of gold ingots.
So
THAT'S the reason why you never invite me over for popcorn and mormon conversion!
I
KNEW something was up!
-clash
The original question was which game system , I still say either SAVAGE WORLDS or GURPS for either version of Galactica.
Oh and I came to the conclusion over 7 months ago that current modern Galactica out TREKs the modern Star Trek in one certain area - getting people to argue about topical issues or at least think about them.
This all reminds of a classic Bajoran argument/debate some fans had from the first season of DEEP DISH NINE.
- Ed C.
Quote from: RPGPunditThe difference there is that Heroes does not misrepresent any existing license that you are a fan of.
Oh, so you're concerned about the
license? The IP? Okay, I have to cut you a little slack there. If you're hoping that, like Richard Hatch was, someone will eventually be able to re-create the original series, then this divergent take on the story is bound to be a disappointment. I'll give you that and a sympathetic slap on the shoulder. But,
c'est la vie, c'est la guerre. Sympathy aside, after the first couple of episodes, the new BSG was pretty much its own animal, with only names in common.
!i!
(*Though the appearance of Michelle Forbes as Admiral Cain went back to the original source material, in a
really good way.)
Quote from: RPGPunditNo, you don't get it. If it had been the same Starbuck with a different actor, that would have been acceptable. I'd have questioned the need given that Benedict is still around and healthy and all, but let's say they wanted to retell the original story, and not do a sequel, and Benedict would be too old, ok, fine.
If the CHARACTER of Starbuck was the same, but with a different actor, that'd be fine. But to take a character that has nothing to do with the original character (other than the Cigars, apparently) and then add the name Starbuck to it (and not even as the actual name, or even a nickname, but a callsign), is nothing more than intentionally murdering a character. Which is what these guys sought out to do in almost everything they did, to butcher the original series and make it into its sick opposite.
Dude. Watch the show. With respect, you've got no idea what you're talking about, and I'm kind of embarassed for you.
Quote from: KoltarThe original question was which game system...
Oh, right, right...
I'm throwing my hat in with Sett on using the
Mechwarrior RPG to do the general role modeling for either the old or new BSG, but tacking on the essentially system-independent Madness Meter as used in
Nemesis for the new series. I think the challenge of moral and psychic decay is essential for modeling the new BSG, perhaps moreso than the dogfighting rules.
!i!
Quote from: Ian AbsentiaOh, so you're concerned about the license? The IP? Okay, I have to cut you a little slack there. If you're hoping that, like Richard Hatch was, someone will eventually be able to re-create the original series, then this divergent take on the story is bound to be a disappointment. I'll give you that and a sympathetic slap on the shoulder. But, c'est la vie, c'est la guerre. Sympathy aside, after the first couple of episodes, the new BSG was pretty much its own animal, with only names in common.
!i!
(*Though the appearance of Michelle Forbes as Admiral Cain went back to the original source material, in a really good way.)
The good news is that the last season is coming up, and the supposed prequel series they were going to do has been tanked, and they don't have rights to do the movies.
So from here, the only new BSG material that could arise would be something different, since the only people left with the legal ability to produce something new are the ones who were pushing for a sequel series to the Real BSG, who got stabbed in the back.
With a bit of luck, we won't EVER see any new material from this so-called BSG again.
I know that might sound petty toward fans of this mockery, but hey, c'est la guerre as you said.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPunditThat could only possibly be true if everything I've read about the new series was lying.
Let's just borrow from Wikipedia, shall we?
Point I: "it rejects the traditional televised science fiction styles of Star Trek (after which the original Battlestar Galactica series was conceived) in favor of what executive producer Ronald D. Moore calls "naturalistic science fiction""
And what I would call bullshit fake edginess.
Point II: "shedding the light-hearted action/adventure style of the original show"
So instead of a series about adventure and survival we get a story about "edgy character drama".
Point III: "show's heroes as being part of a "flawed" humanity", "many characters struggle with deep personal flaws; for example, Adama and his son have a profoundly dysfunctional relationship while Colonel Tigh is an alcoholic"
Are you claiming these things aren't true?! I mean holy shit, I hadn't seen this until now but I pretty well fucking called it, didn't I?
Point IV: "an exploration of moral and ethical issues brought up by the War on Terrorism. The show has dealt with Cylon and human suicide bombers, the torture of prisoners, and a struggle motivated by intense religious differences."
So instead of the Cylons being the force out to wipe out humanity and the humans being, well, humanity with all the good and noble that is implied in the term we end up with them and us being equally evil, the Cylons aren't really so bad, and everyone is wrong. Doesn't that pretty much sum it up?
I mean come on, motherfuckers, you guys want to pretend that its the same show, then answer me this: Are the Cylons absolutely evil?
Point V: "differences in casting in terms of ethnicity and gender, most notably the character of Starbuck"
They ruined Starbuck, the best character of the original series, and one of the list of best sci-fi characters ever. That by itself would be justification enough to never see a single episode of this series.
Point VI: "the Twelve Colonies now closely resembling contemporary 21st century Western culture, with names and costumes often indistinguishable from other television shows"
So gone is all the interesting cultural elements, the mythology created behind the series, all of that is wiped out so instead we get "The O.C.... in Spaaaaace".
Fucking hurrah.
Point VII:" Time described Battlestar Galactica as "a ripping sci-fi allegory of the war on terror", lots of other references to news stories pointing out how trendy the new series is for making a bunch of references to how bad Iraq is, blah blah blah
What the fuck is this?! Its pathetic! Its cheap sensationalism and making stupid references to current events in a way that will almost certainly mean that 20 years from now this so-called "galactica" will mean fuck all to the average person.
And don't try to fucking claim that this is just the media's take on it! Ron Moore himself has apparently said that "the Cylons have aspects of Al Qaeda, the Catholic Church, and America" (apparently everything the typical hollywood producer thinks of as bad, probably in ascending order of magnitude).
So please, quit trying to claim that just because I refuse to watch the series that it somehow does honour to the original.
RPGPundit
I didn't say it was the same show, I said it was a different show that used the same title. I didn't say it does honour to the original, it has fuck all to do with the original.
I did say your comments on the show betray an ignorance of it and I stand by that. Your Adama comments were flatly wrong.
Otherwise, it's not a remake dude. Your arguments say it's a bad remake, but it's not a remake, or not in that sense anyway.
It's comparable to Dawn of the Dead, the new version recently has nothing in common essentially with the original. Different zombies, different survivors, different plot. It just springboarded from the concept, zombie apocalypse, survivors hole up in a mall. This is the same.
You're criticising stuff you haven't seen and you're doing so in detail, it doesn't work.
Actually, the character of Starbuck is one of the closest to the original. All they did pretty much was change the gender, but interestingly people who thought original Starbuck a bit of a lady's man thought the new one a slut.
Which says more about the viewers than what is a very well portrayed character in the show (so far, I'm on season two and I understand the series loses its way after that).
And the original was a pile of shit lacking all narrative logic, frankly I wouldn't have named my show after it for fear of putting people off.
Quote from: RPGPunditThe good news is that the last season is coming up, and the supposed prequel series they were going to do has been tanked...
This is good news, actually. Even as someone who enjoyed the new BSG, it was running out of steam and winding itself out by the end of Season 2 and left me with little desire to watch Season 3.
QuoteSo from here, the only new BSG material that could arise would be something different, since the only people left with the legal ability to produce something new are the ones who were pushing for a sequel series to the Real BSG, who got stabbed in the back.
With a bit of luck, we won't EVER see any new material from this so-called BSG again.
This is that little "Pundit" act you put on to provoke outrage, right? Hey, go fuck yourself. :haw:
!i!
Quote from: RPGPunditI mean come on, motherfuckers, you guys want to pretend that its the same show, then answer me this: Are the Cylons absolutely evil?
Except that no-one is making that claim. Shit, even the producers of the show refuse to use the term "remake" or "sequel". It's like getting pissed at the Coen brothers for making
O Brother Where Art Thou? based on
The Odyssey, or getting annoyed because
10 Things I Hate About You is based on
The Taming of the Shrew.
As a former comic book reader, I tend to look at the new BSG as being something akin to DCs "Elseworlds" line (or "What if?", from Marvel). Elseworlds is an alternative take on an established franchise... designed to be judged on it's
own merits, not based on how well it re-creates the original material. If an Elseworlds book is well written and illustrated, then I'll enjoy it. Regardless of how much it deviates from the source material.
BSG = Grey´s Anatomy
for nerds.
Both shows are awful for the same reasons. If you can´t see the reasons, chances are high you don´t have refined tastes.
Quote from: Dr Rotwang!I wish I could figure out how to turn internet arguments into energy.
Of course that if I did, I couldn't tell anyone. I'd just have to keep my secret to myself, there in my giant house built out of gold ingots.
Very Jack Handy-ish. (That's a compliment.)
On the drifted topic of this thread, I was on the cusp of teenagerhood when the original show came out, and it was tolerable for a while, then got really bad. The thing about it though was that (perhaps with the assistance of rose-tinted glasses), the broad arc of concept and plot was cool, even if the script, dialog, direction, and acting were par for the course in bad 70's TV. (I feel the same way about the Six Million Dollar Man show.)
As for the new show, I smell geek-opera, I shy away.
Though I'm one to talk: I think the best iteration of aircraft carriers in space is a spottily-animated Japanese cartoon from 1982.
Star Blazers!
Quote from: Tyberious FunkAs a former comic book reader, I tend to look at the new BSG as being something akin to DCs "Elseworlds" line (or "What if?", from Marvel). Elseworlds is an alternative take on an established franchise... designed to be judged on it's own merits, not based on how well it re-creates the original material. If an Elseworlds book is well written and illustrated, then I'll enjoy it. Regardless of how much it deviates from the source material.
Well sure, I could see it as a very weird Elseworlds story.
Think of it as a Superman Elseworld; except that they just call it Superman, it replaces the original comic, and the particular Elseworld makes an intentional mockery of absolutely everything that fans liked about Superman while at the same time arguing almost the opposite philosophical-moral message.
RPGPundit
Quote from: SettembriniStar Blazers!
(http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/2577/starblazersmn5.jpg)
Star Blazers Rules!
Or are you speaking of
(http://www.robotech.com/images/content/GIM_4_2_9845.jpg)
Robotech which rules also.
Quote from: RoninStar Blazers Rules!
Or are you speaking of
Robotech which rules also.
IIRC, Star Blazers is from the late 70's, Robotech is the early 80's.
Quote from: Tyberious FunkIIRC, Star Blazers is from the late 70's, Robotech is the early 80's.
Oh, I know. But they still both rule. :p :D
I have a friend kev, that is a big Star Blazers fan. I nabbed a 12 issue (seems like it was the comic co series, but I could be wrong) run super cheap. From my buddies comic shop before it closed. Gave them to Kev as a wedding present.
Quote from: RPGPunditWell sure, I could see it as a very weird Elseworlds story.
Think of it as a Superman Elseworld; except that they just call it Superman, it replaces the original comic...
You mean the original
Superman comic that went out of print over 20 years ago after a print run that barely lasted 24 issues and hasn't seen the light of day since?
!i!
Quote from: RPGPundit...the Cylons aren't really so bad, and everyone is wrong. Doesn't that pretty much sum it up?
I mean come on, motherfuckers, you guys want to pretend that its the same show, then answer me this: Are the Cylons absolutely evil?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=EdqIA1zOhao
[double post]
Quote from: RoninRobotech which rules also.
Hah, I'm such a maniac about Macross that I'd temporarily forgotten about its Robotech incarnation, let alone that, in that form, it wasn't obscure at all around these parts.
But...Macross...or Robotech...holds together a lot better than BSG or Star Wars (taken as a whole).
(Strongly recommend a look at the Macross movie "Do you remember love" if you can your hands on it; in many ways it's the right way to do a reimaginization of an earlier story. Unfortunately US distribution has been limited to a badly-dubbed and edited version on VHS, but there are...ways...of getting a subtitled version of the original.)
Quote from: Ian AbsentiaYou mean the original Superman comic that went out of print over 20 years ago after a print run that barely lasted 24 issues and hasn't seen the light of day since?
!i!
Yes, ok, clearly the Real Series was long enough ago that the actual fandom that actually gave a damn was such a small minority that they could TOTALLY CHANGE the series, basically create a brand new series with no relation to the original, and not fear that the general public would be confused or opposed.
That doesn't mean that its the Real BSG.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Andy Khttp://youtube.com/watch?v=EdqIA1zOhao
That was a single episode in the sequel series that most fans consider non-canonical (although I'll admit that quite a few fans do consider THAT particular episode canonical); and it was a case where a human rewired a Cylon to be friendly.
What I'm talking about is something totally different, its the creation of a moral vacuum. Wherein the Cylons are actually sort-of right, and the humans are sort-of wrong, and the humans might be to blame, and Adama says the humans may not even deserve to exist, and you wonder what the fuck is the point of even watching if there's no clear moral purpose.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundityou wonder what the fuck is the point of even watching if there's no clear moral purpose.
Welcome to the 21st century. Nietzsche is waiting for you.
Quote from: RPGPunditWhat I'm talking about is something totally different, its the creation of a moral vacuum. Wherein the Cylons are actually sort-of right, and the humans are sort-of wrong, and the humans might be to blame, and Adama says the humans may not even deserve to exist, and you wonder what the fuck is the point of even watching if there's no clear moral purpose.
Again... Watch the series. You're completely missing the point of what it has been about.
Quote from: RPGPunditWhat I'm talking about is something totally different, its the creation of a moral vacuum. Wherein the Cylons are actually sort-of right, and the humans are sort-of wrong, and the humans might be to blame, and Adama says the humans may not even deserve to exist, and you wonder what the fuck is the point of even watching if there's no clear moral purpose.
Sometimes stories are about moral ambiguity. The viewer doesn't always have to identify with a character in order to enjoy the character.
That said, by the end of the second season, the new BSG had become too unrelentingly dark for me to enjoy anymore. My opinion, though -- plenty of people kept enjoying it thereafter.
!i!
Quote from: Elliot Wilen(Strongly recommend a look at the Macross movie "Do you remember love" if you can your hands on it; in many ways it's the right way to do a reimaginization of an earlier story. Unfortunately US distribution has been limited to a badly-dubbed and edited version on VHS, but there are...ways...of getting a subtitled version of the original.)
Meh. I didn't care for it... but
Macross Zero i liked, and I'm not much of an anime fan. The combat sequences are pretty intense. :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvJaGP26ngk
I must need either more sleep or more caffeine - I keep thinking ViperGrrl is going to post something to this thread.
- Ed C.
Quote from: StuartMeh. I didn't care for it... but Macross Zero i liked, and I'm not much of an anime fan. The combat sequences are pretty intense. :D
You'll get no argument from me there. The story wasn't bad, either.
Quote from: KoltarI keep thinking ViperGrrl is going to post something to this thread.
And ain't it a relief she won't? :keke: Like, she totally likes the show
way more than you
ever will.
!i!
Quote from: KoltarI must need either more sleep or more caffeine - I keep thinking ViperGrrl is going to post something to this thread.
- Ed C.
Sleep is for pussy's. Caffeines ok but not nessisary. Sheer unadulturated willpower baby. Nothing like it.
Quote from: Ian AbsentiaThat said, by the end of the second season, the new BSG had become too unrelentingly dark for me to enjoy anymore. My opinion, though -- plenty of people kept enjoying it thereafter.
My issue too. If people want to crticise the new BSG for being too dark and paranoid, then I'm not going to argue. But complaining because it's not like the original... I really couldn't give a damn.
Quote from: RoninSleep is for pussy's. Caffeines ok but not nessisary. Sheer unadulturated willpower baby. Nothing like it.
I agree! Chemicals are for those that actually like modernity! Screw them, sheer willpower will win trhough ebevey... zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz