Note that the slow mutilation of L5R is still ongoing:

https://www.legendofthefiverings.com/asians-represent/

It just feels like re-arranging deck chairs on the titanic at this point. In our overcrowded marketplace of ideas, this watered-down version of the game will never recapture even a fraction of what it meant to me and so many others in its glory days, and frankly I'm ok with that. It's ok for things to fade away. Sometimes it's preferable for them to fade away. Who wants to become Disney Star Wars, a disemboweled zombie on a treadmill?

Quote from: Shipyard Locked on February 06, 2024, 10:42:14 AM
Note that the slow mutilation of L5R is still ongoing:

https://www.legendofthefiverings.com/asians-represent/

It just feels like re-arranging deck chairs on the titanic at this point. In our overcrowded marketplace of ideas, this watered-down version of the game will never recapture even a fraction of what it meant to me and so many others in its glory days, and frankly I'm ok with that. It's ok for things to fade away. Sometimes it's preferable for them to fade away. Who wants to become Disney Star Wars, a disemboweled zombie on a treadmill?

That article makes me want to vomit. Cultural sensitivity to them is apparently removal, not even authenticity.
They seem to freak out at any real world Japanese religious connections. Can you imagine the actual Japanese giving a damn? I sure can't. Literally everyone's gods are summons and monsters in their Shin Megami Tensei CRPG's (there's a TTRPG too over there)*. Shugendo and Shinto references, the horror.

*Kinda wish I'd gone out of my way to buy the old edition when I was in Japan years ago. I like the post-nuclear wasteland Japan with computerized demon summoning wizards setting it had back then. At least I got some Sword World and Wizardry TTRPG products.

Quote from: WERDNA on February 06, 2024, 12:21:07 PM

Quote from: Shipyard Locked on February 06, 2024, 10:42:14 AM
Note that the slow mutilation of L5R is still ongoing:

https://www.legendofthefiverings.com/asians-represent/

It just feels like re-arranging deck chairs on the titanic at this point. In our overcrowded marketplace of ideas, this watered-down version of the game will never recapture even a fraction of what it meant to me and so many others in its glory days, and frankly I'm ok with that. It's ok for things to fade away. Sometimes it's preferable for them to fade away. Who wants to become Disney Star Wars, a disemboweled zombie on a treadmill?

That article makes me want to vomit. Cultural sensitivity to them is apparently removal, not even authenticity.
They seem to freak out at any real world Japanese religious connections. Can you imagine the actual Japanese giving a damn? I sure can't. Literally everyone's gods are summons and monsters in their Shin Megami Tensei CRPG's (there's a TTRPG too over there)*. Shugendo and Shinto references, the horror.

*Kinda wish I'd gone out of my way to buy the old edition when I was in Japan years ago. I like the post-nuclear wasteland Japan with computerized demon summoning wizards setting it had back then. At least I got some Sword World and Wizardry TTRPG products.

Yes, yes I can.  But not in an SJW way.  Fuck the woke.

My Japanese friends are thrilled when their culture bleeds over to us.  Not the shallow stuff like anime but more nuts and bolts stuff like family structure and social motivations.  The fact that we might explore their spiritual beliefs in a personal way through games would delight them.  (I'm sure they'd be happy to tune it for more proper and accurate depictios of those beliefs.)  They have a different way of treating the sacred things in their culture. 

Quote from: Shipyard Locked on February 06, 2024, 10:42:14 AM
Note that the slow mutilation of L5R is still ongoing:

https://www.legendofthefiverings.com/asians-represent/

It just feels like re-arranging deck chairs on the titanic at this point. In our overcrowded marketplace of ideas, this watered-down version of the game will never recapture even a fraction of what it meant to me and so many others in its glory days, and frankly I'm ok with that. It's ok for things to fade away. Sometimes it's preferable for them to fade away. Who wants to become Disney Star Wars, a disemboweled zombie on a treadmill?

Which version of L5R is the "best" one. 

I have a PDF of 3rd edition, and now own the dead tree D20 version based on D&D 5E as I mentioned.

Quote from: weirdguy564 on February 06, 2024, 12:54:59 PM
Which version of L5R is the "best" one. 

I have a PDF of 3rd edition, and now own the dead tree D20 version based on D&D 5E as I mentioned.

1st edition had the most speed and verve, but needed some polish.

2nd edition stupidly changed the core math and nobody played or plays it as a result.

3rd edition reverted the math, but cranked up all the powers, ballooned the dice pools, and complexified the math until it became Diet Exalted.

4th edition reined in the power level again, cleaned up the rules and took a meta-plot neutral approach to the setting, but could have used even more restraint to bring it back in line with 1st edition.

EDIT: Oh right, 5th edition. Proprietary dice and dumb setting changes. Hard pass.

My conclusion: In an ideal world, the best version of L5R would be a hybrid of 1st and 4th. In reality, I run 4th because it has the most complete and mechanically sound core book. I still pine for the smaller dice-pools and simpler subsystems.

Incidentally, the D&D 3e version of Oriental Adventures was actually set in Rokugan iirc.

I think one of the easiest ways to play a Samurai is to play Palladium Fantasy, call yourself a Samurai, roll up a knight, then swap out Weapon Proficiency: Lance that only knights & paladins get for Weapon Proficiency: Longbow that only archers and rangers can have. 

After all, a samurai was mostly a mounted archer.  Swordsmanship wasn't their main thing, nor was heavy cavalry charges. 

That's grossly over simplifying it, though. 

Having a game based on Japan is still interesting.  I'm still leaning towards either Shinobi & Samurai, or Chanbara.

Quote from: weirdguy564 on February 06, 2024, 05:17:01 PM
After all, a samurai was mostly a mounted archer.  Swordsmanship wasn't their main thing, not was heavy cavalry charges. 

That's grossly over simplifying it, though. 

Yeah, but while they were mounted archers for most of their history, most game settings tend to be based on the Sengoku period or Edo period. In the former mounted spearmanship and swordsmanship start to dominate; in the latter the sword has acquired it's famed significance and is the weapon of choice in most combat situations.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked on February 06, 2024, 10:42:14 AM
Note that the slow mutilation of L5R is still ongoing:

https://www.legendofthefiverings.com/asians-represent/

It just feels like re-arranging deck chairs on the titanic at this point. In our overcrowded marketplace of ideas, this watered-down version of the game will never recapture even a fraction of what it meant to me and so many others in its glory days, and frankly I'm ok with that. It's ok for things to fade away. Sometimes it's preferable for them to fade away. Who wants to become Disney Star Wars, a disemboweled zombie on a treadmill?

Not sure about that other person but Daniel Kwan is the total embodiment of a banana in Asian parlance.  So anything he says has zero credibility.  But, as another poster noted, real Asians don't give a fuck about this cultural sensitivity garbage.

Quote from: WERDNA on February 06, 2024, 06:48:08 PM

Quote from: weirdguy564 on February 06, 2024, 05:17:01 PM
After all, a samurai was mostly a mounted archer.  Swordsmanship wasn't their main thing, not was heavy cavalry charges. 

That's grossly over simplifying it, though. 

Yeah, but while they were mounted archers for most of their history, most game settings tend to be based on the Sengoku period or Edo period. In the former mounted spearmanship and swordsmanship start to dominate; in the latter the sword has acquired it's famed significance and is the weapon of choice in most combat situations.

True, the idealized Edo period samurai seems to be the default for most TTRPGs.  They also tend to perpetuate the original "Oriental
Adventures" mistaken practice of differentiating samurai and bushi.  But it's just a game; we shouldn't expect too much historical accuracy.  And it's not like Western-derived settings aspire to accuracy either.

Quote from: Persimmon on February 06, 2024, 07:48:01 PM
... but Daniel Kwan is the total embodiment of a banana in Asian parlance.  So anything he says has zero credibility.

Zero credibility, but maximum impact.
He gets the smug satisfaction of wrapping (smothering) the official current version of the setting with Nerf foam. Meanwhile, my friends and I, who've been there since the beginning, just shake our heads powerlessly and continue to skip giving money to something we used to support.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked on February 06, 2024, 10:42:14 AM
Note that the slow mutilation of L5R is still ongoing:

https://www.legendofthefiverings.com/asians-represent/

It just feels like re-arranging deck chairs on the titanic at this point. In our overcrowded marketplace of ideas, this watered-down version of the game will never recapture even a fraction of what it meant to me and so many others in its glory days, and frankly I'm ok with that. It's ok for things to fade away. Sometimes it's preferable for them to fade away. Who wants to become Disney Star Wars, a disemboweled zombie on a treadmill?

Can you imagine if one of us here took the same attitude towards Japanese people playing Call of Cthulhu?  Like, if we were outraged that one of them played a Christian priest or Protestant preacher, or mispronounced a place name in New England, or got some minor detail of the setting wrong?  Or if the Japanese players had to defer everything to the one white person at the table if that person disagreed about a cultural detail?  I don't give a shit about any of that stuff; I'm just glad they play the game and take an interest in Lovecraft's creations.

Quote from: I on February 07, 2024, 04:54:40 AM
Can you imagine if one of us here took the same attitude towards Japanese people playing Call of Cthulhu?  Like, if we were outraged that one of them played a Christian priest or Protestant preacher, or mispronounced a place name in New England, or got some minor detail of the setting wrong?

It's worse than that, L5R's world isn't even close to reality. The equivalent would be coming down hard on the video game Dark Souls for "insensitive misuse" of western themes.

But yes, there are few things more bitterly funny than these myopic moral crusaders treating Japan like a helpless victim culture. I'm like, dude, look at the victories and atrocities they racked up during World War II. Look at the economic and cultural power they have wielded for decades, even in nations who have serious grievances against them because of that war.

Japan doesn't need or deserve this special coddling.

The more I look at Chanbara, the more I like it.

I just wish it was better written.  It assumes you know old school D&D rules by memory.  This is not a newbie friendly game.  There are no explanations on how to play RPG's, or how to GM, ect.  It even forgets to explain some things about hit points and other rules.

The two things about it that drive me bonkers required me to break out my copy of Old School Essentials to decipher what was going on.

The Bad.

1.  Character classes go up to level 14, but levels 10-14 have asterixis next to the hit points.  I was pretty sure I knew what that means, and by that it means you change how you calculate hit points.  However, it specifically means you don't get your Constitution bonus anymore.  The game never says that, though.  Like I said, I had to look it up in Old School Essentials to get this explained to me.

2.  Monsters have Hit Dice, but also have asterixis next to the HD number.  Like a HD 4*** for hit dice.  What do those asterixis mean?  Well, again we consult Old School Essentials.  The asterixis mean how many supernatural abilities that monster has, used to calculate the XP killing it is worth.

3.  Character Creation.  The game says to roll 4D6-L, and arrange as you like for your six abilities.  Well, that means Roll 4D6, drop the lowest (the -L part), and then you can assign the six numbers to your six abilities as you see fit.

It is a bit frustrating, but such is life, eh?

However, beyond that I actually really like Chanbara as a game.  It has a lot of features I don't think I've ever seen before.

The Good.

1.  Tactical Attack vs Tactical Difficulty.  This is a second Attack Bonus vs Armor Rating that characters in this game have.  These are your special moves, like throws, grapples, disrupting spell casting, pushes, ect.  Attacks that don't do damage, but have another effect.
2.  Every third level you get two choices for a new benefit called a Profile Ability.  You can choose one.  Class customization is a big deal to me, and this game has it.
3.  Skill Dice.  On the levels you don't get a special Profile Ability, you get a skill dice instead.  These are 1D6 dice used as tokens.  Your class uses them to activate your special Profile Abilities.  For example, the Mahotsukai magicians can use one of their dice when casting a spell.  If you roll a 5 or a 6 on it, then the spell is NOT used up per normal Vancian D&D magic rules, and you can cast it again.  Ninja can use a dice to hypnotize a victim with a suggestion that lasts the 1D6 days you roll on the dice.  Stuff like that.  Each Profile Ability is different.
4.  Renamed Savings Throws.  Earth, Fire, Water, Wood, and Metal, which apparently are the core elements of Taoist philosophy.  Otherwise, they're just the savings throws you're used to.
5.  11 classes.  This I like,  There are four warrior, three magicians, and four rogues.
6.  Skills.  You get a handful of skills, one or two from your chosen class, and one or two from your background/social status.  Things like Administrative, Trade, Warfare, Arts, Crime, Fishing, Crafting (pick a specific craft like blacksmith), and sailing.  20 in total.  Well, 26 if you also include six special Ninja skills that only they get.
7.  Loss of eyes, hands, and feet.  And becoming Zatoichi is possible.  That is to say a disabled person who can act as if they're not disabled.  The classic "Blind Wandering Samurai" and such.

I like the game.  It is a BX based game like Shinobi & Samurai, or Whitebox: Eastern Adventures.  It is the most complex one of the bunch, but not by that much.

Just know that you need to know how to play D&D already, as the game is not written with much (often none) explanation for a lot of terminology, concepts, and game rules.

Quote from: I on January 29, 2024, 10:20:55 PM
Anyone who wants to run an RPG set in feudal Japan or a similar setting should definitely get Tadashi Ehara's books Daimyo of 1867 and especially Shogun and Daimyo.  They're fun to read even if you don't use them as gaming material.

They're well-researched historical supplements that can be used with any RPG; details at http://diffworlds.com/samurai.htm

Allan.