If you wanted to play in Medieval Japan, or a fantasy world inspired by Japanese lore, which RPG is your choice?
I know of Legend of the Five Rings, but don't know much about it.
There are also two free games I know of. Both are rules lite by their nature, amateur in quality, but seem fine as games go. Being free helps.
Whitebox Eastern Adventures. This is not a Whitebox FMAG expansion book, but a stand-alone game. It is very much an old school, 0-edition D&D game. For example all weapons are 1D6-1, 1D6, or 1D6+1 damage. Only four classes with some minor customization options, and optional four races of human, Japanese "Dwarves", Tengu, and Kitsune.
https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/268199/White-Box-Eastern-Adventures (https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/268199/White-Box-Eastern-Adventures)
Shinobi and Samurai is another free game, B/X style D&D rules, and the shortest page count of the games I just listed. But, it's free, and hosted on the writers own site. That means no barrier to download the PDF. It's also nice as it has 10 classes. But, it's still B/X, so not a lot of customization, and only humans.
http://taxidermicowlbear.weebly.com/downloads.html (http://taxidermicowlbear.weebly.com/downloads.html)
Sengoku Revised seems like a great source for lore, culture, and history, but a 3D6 Fuzion rules system is not my thing. Also, this is a game you pay for. It's somewhat worth it for the lore.
I'm not sure there are more games than this, but naturally you can convert most fantasy RPGs by just re-naming classes and places. But, I prefer to not need to do that.
Any other suggestions?
There's quite a few out there. Sengoku is, as you surmised, nice to have just for the resources including some conversion notes to other systems if I recall.
OSR works include Ruins & Ronin (some good takes on youkai monsters on the creator's Sword +1 blog, but the game itself wasn't terribly authentic iirc) and Shinobi & Samurai has a companion for other races iirc and an associated document of OSR rules for various Youkai that used to float around. Oriental Adventures 1e also exists from which you can port non-humans.
I'd heard Bushido by FGU was good, but I've never had the chance to play it despite owning it. There was a feudal Japan RuneQuest supplement back in the day too.
For my own purposes, I would probably try Bushido or do a modified version of D&D using what's available as material.
That said, I haven't really seen a system with a take on magic that feels right in my personal opinion. I'm kind of hoping to use Lion & Dragon for it one day for this reason. There's a lot of good stuff in Sword & Caravan already and suggestions on how to do a Fangshih wizard which could easily be reskinned into an Onmyouji while retaining historical accuracy, but the options for combat, glamour, curing, banishing and alchemical practices are still very western/middle-eastern. I'm hoping Pundit offers more esoteric Buddhist and Taoist magics leading up to the Song Dynasty project he'll probably eventually work on. The Inugami (a somewhat Ku adjacent evil sending) and Izuna rituals (for a fox familiar) are the only spells in Japanese lore I do not know to have an immediate Chinese equivalent off the top of my head (although they may). I think even the well-known Ushi no Koku Mairi curse has one.
Bushido. I'm not a big fan of the system itself, but everything else is great. And it's feudal JAPAN, not some weird "throw everything Asian in a blender" like Rokugan. And I really like the magic system. Plus you can play Shinto or Buddhist priests, not priests of a made-up pantheon. I also own the Runequest feudal Japan supplement and it's BRP-based, of course, which I like -- but it's very skimpy on cultural detail. My ideal mythological Japan game would be Bushido with BRP but retain the Bushido magic system, modified to fit in BRP. It would take a lot of work, though.
I think you'd enjoy reading Bushido anyway, even if you don't use the rules as-written. It's that good. The one (SFAIK) published adventure for it, "Valley of the Mists," is also very good.
Never tried anything but Bushido and Legend of the Five Rings, so I can't comment on the others.
I ran Bushido (years ago) and we had a great time with it. I'd run it again.
Quote from: I on January 28, 2024, 12:21:41 AM
The one (SFAIK) published adventure for [Bushido], "Valley of the Mists," is also very good.
There were some other adventures published by other companies or in magazines. At least one of them (
Takishido's Debt) was "official". The magazine adventures were in
White Dwarf and
Adventures Unlimited. I never ran any of them, though, so I can't comment on their quality.
Definitely Bushido for me. Although, I'd make a few simplifications to the system if I played it nowadays.
interesting.
Bushido. Never heard of this game before. I will have to look into it.
Quote from: WERDNA on January 28, 2024, 12:03:31 AM
There's quite a few out there. Sengoku is, as you surmised, nice to have just for the resources including some conversion notes to other systems if I recall.
OSR works include Ruins & Ronin (some good takes on youkai monsters on the creator's Sword +1 blog, but the game itself wasn't terribly authentic iirc) and Shinobi & Samurai has a companion for other races iirc and an associated document of OSR rules for various Youkai that used to float around. Oriental Adventures 1e also exists from which you can port non-humans.
I'd heard Bushido by FGU was good, but I've never had the chance to play it despite owning it. There was a feudal Japan RuneQuest supplement back in the day too.
For my own purposes, I would probably try Bushido or do a modified version of D&D using what's available as material.
That said, I haven't really seen a system with a take on magic that feels right in my personal opinion. I'm kind of hoping to use Lion & Dragon for it one day for this reason. There's a lot of good stuff in Sword & Caravan already and suggestions on how to do a Fangshih wizard which could easily be reskinned into an Onmyouji while retaining historical accuracy, but the options for combat, glamour, curing, banishing and alchemical practices are still very western/middle-eastern. I'm hoping Pundit offers more esoteric Buddhist and Taoist magics leading up to the Song Dynasty project he'll probably eventually work on. The Inugami (a somewhat Ku adjacent evil sending) and Izuna rituals (for a fox familiar) are the only spells in Japanese lore I do not know to have an immediate Chinese equivalent off the top of my head (although they may). I think even the well-known Ushi no Koku Mairi curse has one.
This is the project I'm working on right now. I'm actually reading books on Shinto mysticism and Japanese folklore to get a handle on making a magic system for a Japanese setting.
I've always been directed towards Bushido, and I briefly looked into it. It actually looks good, and if I remember correctly it takes stuff like honor and your class into consideration. Ruins and Ronin is also good, but it's a fairly simple reskinning of BECMI D&D so it's a bit basic.
For a while I was working on a personal gazetteer for Sengoku period Japan, using RPGPundit's Dark Albion as a reference. Most of it was just simple changes such as limited what armor and weapons were available, creating a system for social backgrounds, etc. It was a fun little project I wanna finish, and if I do I'll upload it on the forum after it's had a little testing.
Quote from: Philotomy Jurament on January 28, 2024, 05:45:56 AM
Quote from: I on January 28, 2024, 12:21:41 AM
The one (SFAIK) published adventure for [Bushido], "Valley of the Mists," is also very good.
There were some other adventures published by other companies or in magazines. At least one of them (Takishido's Debt) was "official". The magazine adventures were in White Dwarf and Adventures Unlimited. I never ran any of them, though, so I can't comment on their quality.
Thank you. I'll have to try to find these.
If Bushido had one problem, it was the one common to all Fantasy Games Unlimited's products: it was more complicated than it needed to be, and often seemed to be complicated simply for the sake of being complicated. I felt the same way about their post-apocalyptic title, "Aftermath".
Quote from: I on January 28, 2024, 01:30:48 PMIf Bushido had one problem, it was the one common to all Fantasy Games Unlimited's products: it was more complicated than it needed to be, and often seemed to be complicated simply for the sake of being complicated. I felt the same way about their post-apocalyptic title, "Aftermath".
Bushido desperately needs an editor to go in and rewrite it. The rules aren't nearly as complicated as they seem but they are explained in the most confusing way possible as well as being presenting out of order (especially true with character creation).
The core of Bushido is that it is a class and level game but also a skill-based games. Skills range from 0 to 20 and use a d20 roll-under for success. If the skill is a class skill you add your level to the number you need to roll under. So it is possible to have a high level character with a low skill or a low level character with a high skill. For combat, you subtract your opponents armor value from the number you need to roll and do damage vs hit points. Which means that, in practice, it is similar to a roll-low D&D.
Sadly, "best" is a very relative word in this context. I've never played "Bushido," but heard some positive (and some negative) things about it. "Legend of Five Rings," especially its current iteration is woke as fuck and the 5e conversion doubled down on that by forbidding seppuku, among other ridiculous things. "Ruins & Ronin," is lame and weak. Virtually nothing there. Other games, like "Mists of Akuma," or "The Ninja Crusade" add things like steam punk or anime in copious amounts.
Do you want more historical with fantasy elements? Or the reverse? Of the games I've checked out or played, AD&D Oriental Adventures remains the best in some ways. It has certain mechanics to differentiate it from the "Western" game and if you know D&D, you can play it. THe Hackmaster 4e game tweaked some of the Asian classes for the better IMO. There's a 3e version that's tied to Rokugan, but is better than the current version by far.
The thing is, this is a huge hole, particularly in the OSR sphere, where we at least have Joseph Bloch's Swords of Wuxia and the new C&C Codex Sinarumfor China. Not sure if people are afraid of the woke mob, or think it wouldn't sell or what, but I'd love to see a good take on Japan, especially Sengoku era.
Quote from: WERDNA on January 28, 2024, 12:03:31 AM
There's quite a few out there. Sengoku is, as you surmised, nice to have just for the resources including some conversion notes to other systems if I recall.
It's also an exceptional bargain in PDF
if you look in the right place. While the products are listed at 'normal' prices individually, Gold Rush Games offers a bundle of the whole line (https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/29421/sengoku-revised-ed-bundle) on DTRPG for $6 US.
AD&D's Oriental Adventures.
I'm in the middle of developing a Shinobi game right now using Cepheus Engine as a core. I'm doing research right now into Shinto mysticism and traditional folklore beliefs in trying to develop the magic system. In doing my prep, I got a hold of all the Japanese historical setting games I could. Here's what I can tell you.
Legend of the 5 Rings is a mix of Japanese, Chinese/wuxia, and Korean flavors. It all blends well but it isn't samurai really.
Sengoku is well researched and the details of the setting are well done. The system is a bit clunky though. Still, an excellent place to start with building a setting. It's trying to be a heavy historical game rather than a samurai with traditional culture and mysticism. Worth a look, IMO
Bushido is a mess. The system sucks IMO. The setting is a bit cartoonish, heavily inspired by 60s and 70s Japanese sword fighting films rather than actual history. Think Samurai Champloo rather than actual historical fiction.
Neither Katana-Ra, WarSong, nor New Edo are useful if you're looking for a samurai game. Too western and too much trying to be cyberpunk cool rather than embracing the honor and duty of the thing that draws us to a samurai setting.
Wave Man kind of gets it right but it's a bit too rules light for me. Maybe check it out. I'll be doing a review of it in a week or two.
Yokai Hunters Society is very much trying to be Demon Hunter with the serial numbers files off. Cool but not samurai at all.
Ronin is Mork Borg with Japanese flavoring. It has this on the inside cover: "SEXISTS, RACISTS, HOMOPHOBES AND TRANSPHOBES PUT THIS DOWN AND FUCK OFF."
(Jack Byron-Bently, Michael 'Mill' O'Farrell, you guys made it political. I'm just making sure people got your message.)
I would think that if you're trying to do a medieval Japanese fantasy game that OSR would be perfect. Samurai for fighter, ninja/shinobi for thief/rogue, onmyoji for wizard, and Shinto priest is obvious. You need a magic system that reflects the Japanese mysticism, a beastiary for yokai and kami, and a general setting guide.
Quote from: BadApple on January 28, 2024, 04:48:05 PM
I'm in the middle of developing a Shinobi game right now using Cepheus Engine as a core. I'm doing research right now into Shinto mysticism and traditional folklore beliefs in trying to develop the magic system. In doing my prep, I got a hold of all the Japanese historical setting games I could. Here's what I can tell you.
...
I would think that if you're trying to do a medieval Japanese fantasy game that OSR would be perfect. Samurai for fighter, ninja/shinobi for thief/rogue, onmyoji for wizard, and Shinto priest is obvious. You need a magic system that reflects the Japanese mysticism, a beastiary for yokai and kami, and a general setting guide.
The Japanese-created Nobunaga's Black Castle is probably superior to this Ronin Mork Borg thing, but it's in Japanese and inaccessible to most.
If you are doing a Shinobi thing shouldn't you be looking into Shugendo and Mikkyo esoteric Buddhism as well?
The manual for the old CRPG Inindo may have some inspiration for you for a more high fantasy take (only the SNES version is in English sadly). Of course you'd have to figure out which class was the Onmyouji from the Monk, etc since the translations are a bit generic.
Quote from: WERDNA on January 28, 2024, 05:30:29 PM
Quote from: BadApple on January 28, 2024, 04:48:05 PM
I'm in the middle of developing a Shinobi game right now using Cepheus Engine as a core. I'm doing research right now into Shinto mysticism and traditional folklore beliefs in trying to develop the magic system. In doing my prep, I got a hold of all the Japanese historical setting games I could. Here's what I can tell you.
...
I would think that if you're trying to do a medieval Japanese fantasy game that OSR would be perfect. Samurai for fighter, ninja/shinobi for thief/rogue, onmyoji for wizard, and Shinto priest is obvious. You need a magic system that reflects the Japanese mysticism, a beastiary for yokai and kami, and a general setting guide.
The Japanese-created Nobunaga's Black Castle is probably superior to this Ronin Mork Borg thing, but it's in Japanese and inaccessible to most.
If you are doing a Shinobi thing shouldn't you be looking into Shugendo and Mikkyo esoteric Buddhism as well?
The manual for the old CRPG Inindo may have some inspiration for you for a more high fantasy take (only the SNES version is in English sadly). Of course you'd have to figure out which class was the Onmyouji from the Monk, etc since the translations are a bit generic.
Thanks for the tips.
I'll probably give Black Castle a pass. While I recognize Mork Borg as being a fairly good system, I always feel icky dealing with the products. Cy_Borg and Ronin were both unfriendly experiences.
I have a few different subjects I've got listed for detailed research. While I'm currently doing Shinto right now, Buddhist esoteric mysticism, yokai, Iga shinobi trade craft (spy stuff), and a few other loose folklore things are on my list.
Fortunately, I have some 40 years of watching Japanese movies for tempura flavored high fantasy inspiration. Though i am always open to more, I love that shit. ;D
Quote from: BadApple on January 28, 2024, 05:48:37 PM
Quote from: WERDNA on January 28, 2024, 05:30:29 PM
Quote from: BadApple on January 28, 2024, 04:48:05 PM
I'm in the middle of developing a Shinobi game right now using Cepheus Engine as a core. I'm doing research right now into Shinto mysticism and traditional folklore beliefs in trying to develop the magic system. In doing my prep, I got a hold of all the Japanese historical setting games I could. Here's what I can tell you.
...
I would think that if you're trying to do a medieval Japanese fantasy game that OSR would be perfect. Samurai for fighter, ninja/shinobi for thief/rogue, onmyoji for wizard, and Shinto priest is obvious. You need a magic system that reflects the Japanese mysticism, a beastiary for yokai and kami, and a general setting guide.
The Japanese-created Nobunaga's Black Castle is probably superior to this Ronin Mork Borg thing, but it's in Japanese and inaccessible to most.
If you are doing a Shinobi thing shouldn't you be looking into Shugendo and Mikkyo esoteric Buddhism as well?
The manual for the old CRPG Inindo may have some inspiration for you for a more high fantasy take (only the SNES version is in English sadly). Of course you'd have to figure out which class was the Onmyouji from the Monk, etc since the translations are a bit generic.
Thanks for the tips.
I'll probably give Black Castle a pass. While I recognize Mork Borg as being a fairly good system, I always feel icky dealing with the products. Cy_Borg and Ronin were both unfriendly experiences.
I have a few different subjects I've got listed for detailed research. While I'm currently doing Shinto right now, Buddhist esoteric mysticism, yokai, Iga shinobi trade craft (spy stuff), and a few other loose folklore things are on my list.
Fortunately, I have some 40 years of watching Japanese movies for tempura flavored high fantasy inspiration. Though i am always open to more, I love that shit. ;D
I presume you've seen the various ninja manual translations put out by Antony Cummins? Stephen Turnbull's
Ninja: Unmasking the Mythis pretty good for ninja lore as well. If you need any yokai sources, a number of the Edo-era books and encyclopedias have been translated into English. I teach a college class on supernatural Asia. PM me if you'd like to see the recent syllabi with reading lists.
I might get hate for this, but the Usagi Yojimbo RPG is actually really good for this sort of thing.
Also, I got my Castles and Crusades Codex Sinarum in the mail yesterday, it's pretty nice, although I'd probably just use Oriental Adventures at this point and port it to B/X.
Quote from: Brad on January 28, 2024, 08:21:51 PM
I might get hate for this, but the Usagi Yojimbo RPG is actually really good for this sort of thing.
Also, I got my Castles and Crusades Codex Sinarum in the mail yesterday, it's pretty nice, although I'd probably just use Oriental Adventures at this point and port it to B/X.
Isn't the current edition a PbtA game?
Quote from: BadApple on January 28, 2024, 09:10:12 PM
Isn't the current edition a PbtA game?
Apparently so, before that it was Ironclaw (that furry game)'s system which admittedly I've heard was decent enough as a system, and before that it was Fuzion.
Tells you what I know...the Usagi game I was thinking of is the Fuzion one; I saw they had a new version but I never bothered checking it out. If it's one of those Apocalypse games, then that's fairly worthless.
So far the game I am liking the most is the Shinobi & Samurai game that is free from Taxidermic Owlbear.
http://taxidermicowlbear.weebly.com/downloads.html (http://taxidermicowlbear.weebly.com/downloads.html)
On a side note, I'm also really digging their ultra-lite game called "The Gothic Age". I don't consider it a full game, but more like a combat test book with just the Fighter class (it doesn't even have classes). I like it a lot as it has a lot of features I think come from 5E. It has weapon traits, hit points that fixed quantity at level-1, weapon and armor degradation, and even ditches the D20 in favor of 2D6 for combat rolling. If you could pair this up with a simple magic system, and create a few classes, then you have your own OSR game with a bit of a unique style to it.
And sweet Jesus, they're D&D retro-clone page has, by far, the most comprehensive list of D&D OSR games I have ever seen, most with links to the games if you want to check them out.
http://taxidermicowlbear.weebly.com/dd-retroclones.html (http://taxidermicowlbear.weebly.com/dd-retroclones.html)
--------------------
Like I said, Shinobi & Samurai seems to be the game I want, but with the lore from the Sengoku game.
For those of you who like Palladium, Rifter #27 has the Eastern magic arts, and the classes of Samurai, Martial Artist, and Ninja. The Monk is already part of the 2E game classes.
Anyone who wants to run an RPG set in feudal Japan or a similar setting should definitely get Tadashi Ehara's books Daimyo of 1867 and especially Shogun and Daimyo. They're fun to read even if you don't use them as gaming material.
I like Japanese and Chinese -based fantasy Asian games. I also don't mind fantasy religions. About a year ago I was thinking of doing something Asian-flavored. I like AD&D's Oriental Adventures, own Chaosium's Land of Ninja, and played but didn't enjoy Bushido. So I picked up the 3e OA, plus Qin, and two BRP monographs: Dragon Lines and The Celestial Empire. Both of the latter look really good. OTOH the thing I ended up liking the most was Mad Monks of Kwantoom! It's so much fun, meant to be used as an accessory for whatever D&D edition or clone you prefer. Races, classes, monsters and items. The book's energy is infectious.
Quote from: Persimmon on January 28, 2024, 08:19:49 PM
I presume you've seen the various ninja manual translations put out by Antony Cummins? Stephen Turnbull's Ninja: Unmasking the Myth
is pretty good for ninja lore as well. If you need any yokai sources, a number of the Edo-era books and encyclopedias have been translated into English. I teach a college class on supernatural Asia. PM me if you'd like to see the recent syllabi with reading lists.
Thanks for the info. I'm adding it (the Stephen Turnbull book) to my Amazon cart.
Also, I'm interested in the reading lists you mentioned. Feel free to send them to me here in mail or via coplenjasonATgmail.com
I'd appreciate it!
I didn't see a mention of Land of the Rising Sun by Lee Gold. As far as my limited Japanese knowledge goes it seems okay. Mind you, I'm a neophyte when it comes to Japanese lore influenced by movies (probably my biggest error), some Japanese based games (Bushido and the RQ supplement for Japan), and having read Shogun by James Clavell three times.
Quote from: Jason Coplen on January 30, 2024, 05:50:02 PM
I didn't see a mention of Land of the Rising Sun by Lee Gold. As far as my limited Japanese knowledge goes it seems okay. Mind you, I'm a neophyte when it comes to Japanese lore influenced by movies (probably my biggest error), some Japanese based games (Bushido and the RQ supplement for Japan), and having read Shogun by James Clavell three times.
Wasn't that a board game? I seem to recall it but not as an RPG.
While Shogun was a very good novel, it's absolute shit for a real look at Sengoku Japan. Seppuku actually came later and was far less frequent, shinobi weren't a death cult, and there's just so many little inaccuracies. I say this as someone who isn't either a scholar on the subject nor Japanese so you can be your ass that those that are will see the holes. It's kind of like an anime about gunsmiths and bounty hunters in Chicago, a lot of fun but not a good reference.
Bushido is ok but I haven't read any of the RQ stuff to give any feedback.
The most accurate as far as both facts and feel that I've seen is Sengoku: https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/29421/sengoku-revised-ed-bundle
Quote from: BadApple on January 30, 2024, 07:08:05 PM
Quote from: Jason Coplen on January 30, 2024, 05:50:02 PM
I didn't see a mention of Land of the Rising Sun by Lee Gold. As far as my limited Japanese knowledge goes it seems okay. Mind you, I'm a neophyte when it comes to Japanese lore influenced by movies (probably my biggest error), some Japanese based games (Bushido and the RQ supplement for Japan), and having read Shogun by James Clavell three times.
Wasn't that a board game? I seem to recall it but not as an RPG.
While Shogun was a very good novel, it's absolute shit for a real look at Sengoku Japan. Seppuku actually came later and was far less frequent, shinobi weren't a death cult, and there's just so many little inaccuracies. I say this as someone who isn't either a scholar on the subject nor Japanese so you can be your ass that those that are will see the holes. It's kind of like an anime about gunsmiths and bounty hunters in Chicago, a lot of fun but not a good reference.
Bushido is ok but I haven't read any of the RQ stuff to give any feedback.
The most accurate as far as both facts and feel that I've seen is Sengoku: https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/29421/sengoku-revised-ed-bundle
Nope, it was a Chivalry & Scorcery sister game. Now it's a C&S supplement for the woke edition. I have it but I haven't read it. My pile of games to read is so dagnabit large.
Shogun was so much fun, but even I knew it was chewing the fat with the ninja bit. It smacked so much of Hollywood with the almighty ninjas. I rolled my eyes and chuckled at the same time. I love the book for sheer escapism. That shows you, and others, my knowledge of a historical-based Japan is absolute shit. I know more about China from my Buddhist studies.
Sengoku? I've seen it, but I've never looked at it IIRC. Over the years, I've come to not look at so many RPGs. I already have enough. A game needs a stellar review from someone I trust for me to even look at it. Or the rare game grabs me. Not so much anymore because I haven't hit a FLGS for probably a decade. The one where I used to live was awful.
Quote from: Jason Coplen on January 30, 2024, 07:37:26 PM
Quote from: BadApple on January 30, 2024, 07:08:05 PM
Quote from: Jason Coplen on January 30, 2024, 05:50:02 PM
I didn't see a mention of Land of the Rising Sun by Lee Gold. As far as my limited Japanese knowledge goes it seems okay. Mind you, I'm a neophyte when it comes to Japanese lore influenced by movies (probably my biggest error), some Japanese based games (Bushido and the RQ supplement for Japan), and having read Shogun by James Clavell three times.
Wasn't that a board game? I seem to recall it but not as an RPG.
While Shogun was a very good novel, it's absolute shit for a real look at Sengoku Japan. Seppuku actually came later and was far less frequent, shinobi weren't a death cult, and there's just so many little inaccuracies. I say this as someone who isn't either a scholar on the subject nor Japanese so you can be your ass that those that are will see the holes. It's kind of like an anime about gunsmiths and bounty hunters in Chicago, a lot of fun but not a good reference.
Bushido is ok but I haven't read any of the RQ stuff to give any feedback.
The most accurate as far as both facts and feel that I've seen is Sengoku: https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/29421/sengoku-revised-ed-bundle
Nope, it was a Chivalry & Scorcery sister game. Now it's a C&S supplement for the woke edition. I have it but I haven't read it. My pile of games to read is so dagnabit large.
Shogun was so much fun, but even I knew it was chewing the fat with the ninja bit. It smacked so much of Hollywood with the almighty ninjas. I rolled my eyes and chuckled at the same time. I love the book for sheer escapism. That shows you, and others, my knowledge of a historical-based Japan is absolute shit. I know more about China from my Buddhist studies.
Sengoku? I've seen it, but I've never looked at it IIRC. Over the years, I've come to not look at so many RPGs. I already have enough. A game needs a stellar review from someone I trust for me to even look at it. Or the rare game grabs me. Not so much anymore because I haven't hit a FLGS for probably a decade. The one where I used to live was awful.
I wouldn't "recommend" Sengoku to play but I could recommend it for setting information if one was looking to do a historical samurai RP game. All in, I don't think there's a single samurai game I would give a solid recommendation to. What I can say is that it would be easy enough to do an OSR setting in line with Lion and Dragon/Sword and Caravan based on 15th century Japan. I would even go as far as to say that would be a near perfect fit, even better than a Euro style setting.
Quote from: BadApple on January 30, 2024, 08:04:29 PM
Quote from: Jason Coplen on January 30, 2024, 07:37:26 PM
Quote from: BadApple on January 30, 2024, 07:08:05 PM
Quote from: Jason Coplen on January 30, 2024, 05:50:02 PM
I didn't see a mention of Land of the Rising Sun by Lee Gold. As far as my limited Japanese knowledge goes it seems okay. Mind you, I'm a neophyte when it comes to Japanese lore influenced by movies (probably my biggest error), some Japanese based games (Bushido and the RQ supplement for Japan), and having read Shogun by James Clavell three times.
Wasn't that a board game? I seem to recall it but not as an RPG.
While Shogun was a very good novel, it's absolute shit for a real look at Sengoku Japan. Seppuku actually came later and was far less frequent, shinobi weren't a death cult, and there's just so many little inaccuracies. I say this as someone who isn't either a scholar on the subject nor Japanese so you can be your ass that those that are will see the holes. It's kind of like an anime about gunsmiths and bounty hunters in Chicago, a lot of fun but not a good reference.
Bushido is ok but I haven't read any of the RQ stuff to give any feedback.
The most accurate as far as both facts and feel that I've seen is Sengoku: https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/29421/sengoku-revised-ed-bundle
Nope, it was a Chivalry & Scorcery sister game. Now it's a C&S supplement for the woke edition. I have it but I haven't read it. My pile of games to read is so dagnabit large.
Shogun was so much fun, but even I knew it was chewing the fat with the ninja bit. It smacked so much of Hollywood with the almighty ninjas. I rolled my eyes and chuckled at the same time. I love the book for sheer escapism. That shows you, and others, my knowledge of a historical-based Japan is absolute shit. I know more about China from my Buddhist studies.
Sengoku? I've seen it, but I've never looked at it IIRC. Over the years, I've come to not look at so many RPGs. I already have enough. A game needs a stellar review from someone I trust for me to even look at it. Or the rare game grabs me. Not so much anymore because I haven't hit a FLGS for probably a decade. The one where I used to live was awful.
I wouldn't "recommend" Sengoku to play but I could recommend it for setting information if one was looking to do a historical samurai RP game. All in, I don't think there's a single samurai game I would give a solid recommendation to. What I can say is that it would be easy enough to do an OSR setting in line with Lion and Dragon/Sword and Caravan based on 15th century Japan. I would even go as far as to say that would be a near perfect fit, even better than a Euro style setting.
I'm all for game settings that aren't fantasy Europe. Yes, that includes my own setting that's ticking me off - about to do some major changes to it. I'm bored to tears by Fantasy Europe. The neglect of other cultures, or better, the total attitude that they're missing or that it's up to the DM bugs me. I'll die happily if I never see a setting with knights and princesses again. That includes fantasy novels. I love the books I've read, but someone with less talent has to rehash it annually. I can't remember how many books I've not finished because I get x pages in, and then I go - Welp, I've already read this story by a far better writer. Most Tolkien clones fall into this category, but McKiernan is a guilty pleasure. We all have some weakness which goes fully against our main views.
One of my friends has a pdf of Sengoku that he's sending me, so I'll be able to slowly make my way through it. I'm in search of something different. I have a hard copy of Swords & Caravan on the stand beside my desk. It's in my to get to pile. Some people have spoken highly of it, but they may be Pundit asskissers. ;)
Quote from: Jason Coplen on January 30, 2024, 08:28:26 PM
I'm all for game settings that aren't fantasy Europe. Yes, that includes my own setting that's ticking me off - about to do some major changes to it. I'm bored to tears by Fantasy Europe. The neglect of other cultures, or better, the total attitude that they're missing or that it's up to the DM bugs me. I'll die happily if I never see a setting with knights and princesses again. That includes fantasy novels. I love the books I've read, but someone with less talent has to rehash it annually. I can't remember how many books I've not finished because I get x pages in, and then I go - Welp, I've already read this story by a far better writer. Most Tolkien clones fall into this category, but McKiernan is a guilty pleasure. We all have some weakness which goes fully against our main views.
One of my friends has a pdf of Sengoku that he's sending me, so I'll be able to slowly make my way through it. I'm in search of something different. I have a hard copy of Swords & Caravan on the stand beside my desk. It's in my to get to pile. Some people have spoken highly of it, but they may be Pundit asskissers. ;)
If you would like a bit of a taste of the fictional medieval Japan to stoke the imagination here's a list of films. (all of them are Japanese with dubs and subs available)
Hidden Fortress
Sanjuro
Throne of Blood
Chushingura (The 47 Ronin)
Shogun's Samurai (The Yagyu Clan Conspiracy)
Shogun's Ninja
The Ninjas
I'd vote for one of the RuneQuest variants. Either the Chaosium Land of the Ninja, the Mongoose Legend of Samurai or the 2-page RuneQuest 2 variant "Zen and the art of Adventure Gaming" in White Dwarf.
Quote from: BadApple on January 30, 2024, 09:01:18 PM
Quote from: Jason Coplen on January 30, 2024, 08:28:26 PM
I'm all for game settings that aren't fantasy Europe. Yes, that includes my own setting that's ticking me off - about to do some major changes to it. I'm bored to tears by Fantasy Europe. The neglect of other cultures, or better, the total attitude that they're missing or that it's up to the DM bugs me. I'll die happily if I never see a setting with knights and princesses again. That includes fantasy novels. I love the books I've read, but someone with less talent has to rehash it annually. I can't remember how many books I've not finished because I get x pages in, and then I go - Welp, I've already read this story by a far better writer. Most Tolkien clones fall into this category, but McKiernan is a guilty pleasure. We all have some weakness which goes fully against our main views.
One of my friends has a pdf of Sengoku that he's sending me, so I'll be able to slowly make my way through it. I'm in search of something different. I have a hard copy of Swords & Caravan on the stand beside my desk. It's in my to get to pile. Some people have spoken highly of it, but they may be Pundit asskissers. ;)
If you would like a bit of a taste of the fictional medieval Japan to stoke the imagination here's a list of films. (all of them are Japanese with dubs and subs available)
Hidden Fortress
Sanjuro
Throne of Blood
Chushingura (The 47 Ronin)
Shogun's Samurai (The Yagyu Clan Conspiracy)
Shogun's Ninja
The Ninjas
Thanks. I'll get to watching them tomorrow. :)
A year ago I found all of the Zatiochi movies on Youtube. The site I used is gone but this one has a bunch.
https://www.youtube.com/@EigaPlus/videos
I also found 4 years of the Zatiochi tv series along with a ton of other Chanubra content.
https://www.youtube.com/@samuraivsninja/videos
I'm quite liking Thousand Arrows, a PbtA game set in the Warring States. Strictly historical; what magic there is limited to plausible deniability.
It's not something that is brought up in Sengoku settings much but exploration of ancient tombs (kofuns) is a pretty plausible form of adventuring in a Japanese setting. Apparently some smaller castles of the Sengoku period were built over these mounds. See an irl example interior below.
(https://kofunkan.pref.kumamoto.jp/sys/wp-content/themes/kofunkan_pref_kumamoto_2022/assets/images/about/img-about.jpg)
Quote from: WERDNA on January 31, 2024, 01:33:39 AM
It's not something that is brought up in Sengoku settings much but exploration of ancient tombs (kofuns) is a pretty plausible form of adventuring in a Japanese setting. Apparently some smaller castles of the Sengoku period were built over these mounds. See an irl example interior below.
(https://kofunkan.pref.kumamoto.jp/sys/wp-content/themes/kofunkan_pref_kumamoto_2022/assets/images/about/img-about.jpg)
Part of what makes any setting work well is a sense of history.and having some remnants of that history around. Japan is perfect for this in a lot of ways in that we have a lot of that around both as physical objects and places but also as distinct subcultures. You brought up the kofuns but we have fortifications and temples from various stages of cultural development that can all be explored as well. Add to that, there's a lot of areas that were mostly isolated in the mountains or being at the extreme reaches.
There is...
(https://i.imgur.com/7clTErY.jpg)
But it is GURPS (third edition, no less), which is a problem for a lot of people, and it is only available from SJG (or used). There's a pdf with the table of contents at https://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/Japan/img/japan-excerpt.pdf (https://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/Japan/img/japan-excerpt.pdf).
The two games I like, Shinobi & Samurai, and Whitebox:Eastern Adventures are both great rulebooks, and free.
They just have zero Japanese Lore.
Sengoku, Bushido, and Legend of the Five Rings are all poor games with awesome lore sections.
It looks like the game for me is going to be an Amalgam of free rules and paid lore.
Also, saying a game is cheesy for cinematic BS ninjas and Samurai powers is a selling point if you ask me. We want the extreme lore. It's a game, not a history lesson.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on January 31, 2024, 07:09:51 PM
The two games I like, Shinobi & Samurai, and Whitebox:Eastern Adventures are both great rulebooks, and free.
They just have zero Japanese Lore.
Sengoku, Bushido, and Legend of the Five Rings are all poor games with awesome lore sections.
It looks like the game for me is going to be an Amalgam of free rules and paid lore.
Also, saying a game is cheesy for cinematic BS ninjas and Samurai powers is a selling point if you ask me. We want the extreme lore. It's a game, not a history lesson.
Can you post links to Shinobi & Samurai and Whitebox:Eastern Adventures?
Shinobi & Samurai: https://taxidermicowlbear.weebly.com/uploads/2/3/7/4/23742956/shinobi__samurai_1.0b.pdf
Whitebox: EA : https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/268199/White-Box-Eastern-Adventures
I also made a big post about Oni in another thread some here may find useful: https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/medieval-authentic-supernatural-lore/15/
Quote from: WERDNA on February 01, 2024, 12:36:27 AM
Shinobi & Samurai: https://taxidermicowlbear.weebly.com/uploads/2/3/7/4/23742956/shinobi__samurai_1.0b.pdf
Whitebox: EA : https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/268199/White-Box-Eastern-Adventures
I also made a big post about Oni in another thread some here may find useful: https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/medieval-authentic-supernatural-lore/15/
Thank you.
I've been looking at as many different Eastern themed games I can get a hold of for how they solve various things. So far, I've seen a few things worth grabbing so I think it's been worth my time.
I went through my games and I have:
Sengoku (looks like the revised edition)
Bushido (FGU)
GURPS Japan
GURPS China
Oriental Adventures (1st...got rid of 3rd couple summers ago)
Land of the Rising Sun
Usagi Yojimbo
Runequest Land of Ninja
Ninjas and Superspies and Mystic China
"Medieval Japan, or a fantasy world inspired by Japanese lore" is the original question. Honestly, after looking through the stuff again, Ninjas and Superspies wins it for me due to the insane fantasy element implied by the setting. It's basically playing a combination of Big Trouble in Little China and Ninja III: The Domination. If Lo Pan shows up to fuck with your cybernetically-enhanced ninja warrior, no problem. Time travel back to the Edo era to fight the shogun? No problem. You can basically shoehorn every single aspect of Asian-flavored folklore, myth, and historical fact you want with no issues, or you can play it straight using resources from other games.
If you want STRICTLY historical, though, then GURPS Japan as a resource and probably Land of Ninja work better, simply because BRP is a better overall system.
Take my opinion with the understanding that I watched way too many kung fu movies as a a kid and hung out in martial arts studios throughout high school and college. So there is an element of whimsy I expect.
Quote from: Brad on February 01, 2024, 07:59:23 AM
I went through my games and I have:
Sengoku (looks like the revised edition)
Bushido (FGU)
GURPS Japan
GURPS China
Oriental Adventures (1st...got rid of 3rd couple summers ago)
Land of the Rising Sun
Usagi Yojimbo
Runequest Land of Ninja
Ninjas and Superspies and Mystic China
You should add Palladium Rifter #27 to the list, especially if you like Ninjas and Superspies the best. That Rifter has the 2nd Edition Palladium Fantasy Samurai, Ninja, Martial Arts Master, and additions to the Warrior Monk already in Fantasy 2E core book.
Quote from: BadApple on February 01, 2024, 07:44:05 AM
Quote from: WERDNA on February 01, 2024, 12:36:27 AM
Shinobi & Samurai: https://taxidermicowlbear.weebly.com/uploads/2/3/7/4/23742956/shinobi__samurai_1.0b.pdf
Whitebox: EA : https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/268199/White-Box-Eastern-Adventures
I also made a big post about Oni in another thread some here may find useful: https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/medieval-authentic-supernatural-lore/15/
Thank you.
I've been looking at as many different Eastern themed games I can get a hold of for how they solve various things. So far, I've seen a few things worth grabbing so I think it's been worth my time.
I'm sure the cost of "free" might break your bank account.
On a less sarcastic note, how in the world does anybody who sells RPGs make money when there are literally dozens of alternate games for free?
Quote from: weirdguy564 on February 01, 2024, 02:34:41 PM
On a less sarcastic note, how in the world does anybody who sells RPGs make money when there are literally dozens of alternate games for free?
For the same reason Games Workshop stays in business despite the existence of dozens of free alternatives and cheaper model casters. This hobby is intensely tribal, and for too many their Favourite Game is an emotional crutch.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on February 01, 2024, 12:56:36 PM
You should add Palladium Rifter #27 to the list, especially if you like Ninjas and Superspies the best. That Rifter has the 2nd Edition Palladium Fantasy Samurai, Ninja, Martial Arts Master, and additions to the Warrior Monk already in Fantasy 2E core book.
Yeah I have it somewhere I think; not a fan of Palladium 2nd though except as a Rifts sourcebook.
Quote from: daniel_ream on February 01, 2024, 03:20:33 PM
For the same reason Games Workshop stays in business despite the existence of dozens of free alternatives and cheaper model casters. This hobby is intensely tribal, and for too many their Favourite Game is an emotional crutch.
I will gladly pay for good layout, appropriate art, proofreading, etc. I have no problem giving people money for their work on a game. I have bought all of Pundit's games, for instance, and they're all worth what I paid. Same with Kevin Crawford (don't like the art in Silent Legions that much but whatever). Contrast this with all the late 5th edition D&D stuff I finally ditched. That shit isn't worth free. That said, no one who sells RPGs makes money. Gygax-era TSR is the first time anyone ever got rich off selling RPGs and probably the last, honestly. Pundit might be getting by, but I doubt he's on the waiting list for a luxury yacht.
Quote from: daniel_ream on February 01, 2024, 03:20:33 PM
Quote from: weirdguy564 on February 01, 2024, 02:34:41 PM
On a less sarcastic note, how in the world does anybody who sells RPGs make money when there are literally dozens of alternate games for free?
For the same reason Games Workshop stays in business despite the existence of dozens of free alternatives and cheaper model casters. This hobby is intensely tribal, and for too many their Favourite Game is an emotional crutch.
There might also be the "sunk cost fallacy" angle to consider.
If you pay a lot for something, you will stick with that because you want to get your money's worth out of it. If you get something for free, then you don't have to give it a lot of time or effort.
I don't opperate that way. My top games right now are all free ones, with one or two exceptions because I like them.
You're probably right when it comes to RPGs; especially the Forever DMs who spend hundreds of dollars on official books, but then again most of the stuff in there can be easily ported to other systems. Same with GW; the codexes are a sunk cost but outside of an official tournament no one cares what your minis look like and they're the lion's share of the expense.
One Page Rules seems to be doing quite well, unlike all the various minis-agnostic rules that have come along previously, but I can't tell if they're truly having an impact among GW players or if like FATE they're just popular among a small vocal niche that isn't statistically significant.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on February 01, 2024, 02:34:41 PM
Quote from: BadApple on February 01, 2024, 07:44:05 AM
Quote from: WERDNA on February 01, 2024, 12:36:27 AM
Shinobi & Samurai: https://taxidermicowlbear.weebly.com/uploads/2/3/7/4/23742956/shinobi__samurai_1.0b.pdf
Whitebox: EA : https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/268199/White-Box-Eastern-Adventures
I also made a big post about Oni in another thread some here may find useful: https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/medieval-authentic-supernatural-lore/15/
Thank you.
I've been looking at as many different Eastern themed games I can get a hold of for how they solve various things. So far, I've seen a few things worth grabbing so I think it's been worth my time.
I'm sure the cost of "free" might break your bank account.
On a less sarcastic note, how in the world does anybody who sells RPGs make money when there are literally dozens of alternate games for free?
It's not my money I'm concerned with, it's my time. If I'm going to spend the 12 hours to learn a game system, I want it to be worth it.
None of the best games are free, IMO, though there are some good games that are. Price tag doesn't demonstrate the quality of a game however.
Psychology can be hard to predict, and pronouncements are subjective, but I can speak from my own experience.
I have a bunch of free RPGs saved on my hard drive. Most I've never looked at.
I have a bunch of RPGs I paid good money for on my shelves. Many I've never looked at.
I only buy an RPG (or supplement) if I really think I'm going to play it.
I download free RPGs if I think they might someday be of interest or use.
If I have a hard copy (IE paid for) then I'm more likely to pick up that book if I'm considering running something in that genre. I'll only go to the free PDFs if the hard copy doesn't seem ideal.
OTOH I've had free PDFs printed up in hard cover volumes, because I'm quite enthused about them. IE, JAGS Wonderland.
If I run a Conan game I'm going to pick up that free PDF and print it. Probably with some supplemental info from other free resources.
If I run Barsoom, same deal.
I don't think I could draw any useful conclusions from this pile of anecdotes, except that I wouldn't consider that free RPGs are any less likely to see use at my table.
The much greater hurdle any RPG has to overcome is that I play plenty of old-school RPGs that I learned back in the day. New games would have to really be something special for me to even give their reviews a look. It's mostly if they cover a new genre or something that determines whether I'll be at all interested.
Back on topic, I found two bits from Shinobi & Samurai that are interesting.
1. The classic six ability scores are optional, with NOT using them as the normal way to play. The game doesn't even have a +/- ability chart for being an 18 vs 3 in your six ability scores. It just says use them from another game if you choose, but this game doesn't bother.
2. This one is not in the main book, but the "companion" rules book. There is an optional, non-Vancian Magic Power Points system for magic instead of Spells Slots per day. Wizards (Mahotsukai) and Clerics (Sohei) each have a chart of how many spell points they can have, and the level cap of the magic spells they can cast. If you have 4 spell points, and want to cast a 1st level spell, each cast costs you 1D2 points. If you don't have enough, you are done, or you can start using hit points instead.
That first one I think I would NOT use. I like having strong or weak characters. I do agree that old school "whitebox" levels of bonus and penalties of only +1, 0, or -1 is pretty lame. I like the more modern -3 to +3 range of ability scores.
The second one is something I would use. Mana points are more my style. But, I also had a though. Let the wizard or cleric pick which way they want their character to run. Use both methods in the same game at the same time.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on February 03, 2024, 07:30:43 PM
Back on topic, I found two bits from Shinobi & Samurai that are interesting.
1. The classic six ability scores are optional, with NOT using them as the normal way to play. The game doesn't even have a +/- ability chart for being an 18 vs 3 in your six ability scores. It just says use them from another game if you choose, but this game doesn't bother.
2. This one is not in the main book, but the "companion" rules book. There is an optional, non-Vancian Magic Power Points system for magic instead of Spells Slots per day. Wizards (Mahotsukai) and Clerics (Sohei) each have a chart of how many spell points they can have, and the level cap of the magic spells they can cast. If you have 4 spell points, and want to cast a 1st level spell, each cast costs you 1D2 points. If you don't have enough, you are done, or you can start using hit points instead.
That first one I think I would NOT use. I like having strong or weak characters. I do agree that old school "whitebox" levels of bonus and penalties of only +1, 0, or -1 is pretty lame. I like the more modern -3 to +3 range of ability scores.
The second one is something I would use. Mana points are more my style. But, I also had a though. Let the wizard or cleric pick which way they want their character to run. Use both methods in the same game at the same time.
Just for fun, a couple of interesting notes for you. First, mahotsukai means witch or hedge wizard (IIRC) and sohei were Buddhist warrior monks. I tend to think of sohei as more like the Knights of St. John or the Teutonic Knights orders. (I just think this stuff in neat and wanted to share.) Mahotsukai are generally seen in the same light as witch doctors and tribal shaman.
An onmyoji would be more in line with a wizard in western thought. They were practitioners of divination in order to advise the court and administrators, serving both the nobility and the samurai usually and some even offered their services to the general public as freelancers. They were also kami summoners, talsiman makers, and manipulators of spiritual and magical energies. A large part of their job was balancing and pacifying turbulent energies.
Shinto priests are called kannushi or shinshoku. (IIRC that means ceremony master and kami servant respectively) Miko are shrine maidens, recognizable by their red pants and white top. Each has their own rituals and duties with their own spiritual effects.
A magic system I already use in my D&D/OSR games is a four tier system and it seems to mesh well with the Japanese theme of supernatural powers. Everything above tier one is a ritual spell. One of the biggest reasons for this system is to do away with any kind of tracking of magical points.
Tier one is spells that can be used at the drop of the hat. Most of these are very low in power and cannot be used alone as an attack but they can enhance an attack and most of them are non-combat utility spells. They can be used like cantrips in 5e. There are more powerful tier one spells that magic users can acquire during play.
Tier two is more powerful spells that can range from a few minutes to a few hours to cast. Most of these are divination spells of various types but there are some spells for communication, healing, and temporary enchantment.
Tier three spells can take several hours to weeks to cast and require the use of a prepared space. These are generally layered spells and can be for much better divination, including learning new spells, magic tool making, and various spells that can help or hinder a designated person long term. Often, these spells require multiple participants.
Tier four spells are essentially structures that someone with skills in magic can use. They are massive investments in time and resources. Generally, they tend to be single purpose spells that are very powerful like being able to view the world in a scroll and zoom kind of way or act as a massive defensive weapon like being able to cast a stream of fireballs.
Quote from: BadApple on February 03, 2024, 08:49:53 PM
Just for fun, a couple of interesting notes for you. First, mahotsukai means witch or hedge wizard (IIRC) and sohei were Buddhist warrior monks. I tend to think of sohei as more like the Knights of St. John or the Teutonic Knights orders. (I just think this stuff in neat and wanted to share.) Mahotsukai are generally seen in the same light as witch doctors and tribal shaman.
Mahotsukai translates literally to magic user. I'm not sure I've ever seen it used to refer to anything but western practices outside of a few references to people doing typical magic tricks performed for entertainment in the early Edo period. In those cases Genjutsu or illusion techniques is probably a more common term than mahou.
I found another game. Chanbara. It literally means the noise of clashing swords, but is slang for Samurai genre movies. I got the $5 PDF.
https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/232335/chanbara (https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/232335/chanbara)
It's D&D Basic style rules and only 64 pages.
One interesting bit are combat, magic, or skill dice. Each class gets a few bonus D6 dice (3 usually) that you can add to your D20 rolls. The magic dice are used to give a 1/3 chance to cast a spell for free. Skill dice can add to your rolls to pull of rogue, er, I mean Ninja tricks. Honestly, each sub-class uses their dice in their own way.
Overall I would lump this game together with the two, free RPGs of Shinobi & Samurai, and Whitebox: Oriental Adventures. They're all good, but Chanbara is the most detailed.
I'm a bit annoyed by the classes. The game is written like there are only four classes, but the sub-classes are actually classes. There is nothing "sub" about them.
I like this game about as much as the other two D20 D&D clone/OSR games. It is worth the $5 I paid for it. Like them it's just a rulebook, so lore still needs to be found elsewhere from GURPS or Sengoku games.
I've heard there are loads of fan made Japanese language Japan exclusive campaigns, scenarios, and even worlds for Call of Cthulhu set around medieval Japan or fantasy worlds based on medieval Japan. None of which have been translated but are pretty good so I'm told. I don't speak or read Moonrunes so I couldn't tell you for certain but I think the fact they exist at all is super interesting. All we really got in English was one sourcebook on Japan that wasn't even very accurate to how Japan really is.
(Update)
I was mistaken. Apparently this book was written in English. Should be useful to you.
I had yet another weird thing happen.
I just went to my FLGS and they had a copy of Adventures in Rokugan on the shelf. This is the version of the game re-done as a 5E game: six ability scores, armor class, hit points, and uses the 1D20 for combat.
Man, I'm getting a bit carried away with this Sengoku period Japan RPG stuff. I'm buying everything I can find.
And yet, I already had a couple of good, free games. Why am I going down this road? Glad I you asked, disembodied voice in my own head. I'll tell you. I like to make sure I found the "best" game I can before playing a setting.
I'm still feeling it out, but I think I like either Adventures in Rokugan, or Shinobi and Samurai.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on February 04, 2024, 08:18:03 PM
I had yet another weird thing happen.
I just went to my FLGS and they had a copy of Adventures in Rokugan on the shelf. This is the version of the game re-done as a 5E game: six ability scores, armor class, hit points, and uses the 1D20 for combat.
Man, I'm getting a bit carried away with this Sengoku period Japan RPG stuff. I'm buying everything I can find.
And yet, I already had a couple of good, free games. Why am I going down this road? Glad I you asked, disembodied voice in my own head. I'll tell you. I like to make sure I found the "best" game I can before playing a setting.
I'm still feeling it out, but I think I like either Adventures in Rokugan, or Shinobi and Samurai.
Adventures in Rokugan is Legends of the Five Rings retooled for use with 5e. If you like that setting and you like 5e, then it will do just fine for you.
Quote from: BadApple on February 04, 2024, 08:24:23 PM
Quote from: weirdguy564 on February 04, 2024, 08:18:03 PM
I had yet another weird thing happen.
I just went to my FLGS and they had a copy of Adventures in Rokugan on the shelf. This is the version of the game re-done as a 5E game: six ability scores, armor class, hit points, and uses the 1D20 for combat.
Man, I'm getting a bit carried away with this Sengoku period Japan RPG stuff. I'm buying everything I can find.
And yet, I already had a couple of good, free games. Why am I going down this road? Glad I you asked, disembodied voice in my own head. I'll tell you. I like to make sure I found the "best" game I can before playing a setting.
I'm still feeling it out, but I think I like either Adventures in Rokugan, or Shinobi and Samurai.
Adventures in Rokugan is Legends of the Five Rings retooled for use with 5e. If you like that setting and you like 5e, then it will do just fine for you.
Actually only if you prefer your settings with a healthy (actually oppressive) side of social justice and cancel culture. That's the game where they outlaw seppuku, offer trigger warnings regarding hetero-sexuality and straight up tell you that if you get into an argument with an Asian over something historical or cultural, regardless of who's right you need "to check your armor class at the door" and defer to the POC. That's in addition to all the other insipid sensitivity BS they cram into the intro.
Quote from: Persimmon on February 04, 2024, 11:23:03 PM
Actually only if you prefer your settings with a healthy (actually oppressive) side of social justice and cancel culture. That's the game where they outlaw seppuku, offer trigger warnings regarding hetero-sexuality and straight up tell you that if you get into an argument with an Asian over something historical or cultural, regardless of who's right you need "to check your armor class at the door" and defer to the POC. That's in addition to all the other insipid sensitivity BS they cram into the intro.
Good to know, thanks for the info.
Quote from: Persimmon on February 04, 2024, 11:23:03 PM
Actually only if you prefer your settings with a healthy (actually oppressive) side of social justice and cancel culture. That's the game where they outlaw seppuku, offer trigger warnings regarding hetero-sexuality and straight up tell you that if you get into an argument with an Asian over something historical or cultural, regardless of who's right you need "to check your armor class at the door" and defer to the POC. That's in addition to all the other insipid sensitivity BS they cram into the intro.
Heard the new one was pretty bad, but damn.
Quote from: King Tyranno on February 04, 2024, 09:47:01 AM
I've heard there are loads of fan made Japanese language Japan exclusive campaigns, scenarios, and even worlds for Call of Cthulhu set around medieval Japan or fantasy worlds based on medieval Japan. None of which have been translated but are pretty good so I'm told. I don't speak or read Moonrunes so I couldn't tell you for certain but I think the fact they exist at all is super interesting. All we really got in English was one sourcebook on Japan that wasn't even very accurate to how Japan really is.
(Update)
I was mistaken. Apparently this book was written in English. Should be useful to you.
What I find odd is the seeming scarcity of Samurai-themed rpg material from Japan itself. Anyone know what (if anything) is going on in Japan in this regard?
I was never much interested in Legend of the Five Rings/Rokugan because it was Edge Studios, and their love of weird, narrative dice. IE current Star Wars games by them like Edge of the Empire use the same system.
I hate those weird dice. I'm not the only one, either. From what I gather it's polarizing whether people want to play the Edge system with their special dice. The ones who do love it, but many others never "get" it and not only won't play it, they can't play it because it's not intuitive. I'm in that second group. I want to game, not spend all my time deciphering rules.
The selling point for the Adventures in Rokugan was the 5E rules. I'm not completely sold on the setting. It's a lot to read.
I'll probably chock it up to an impulse buy. I had a gift card from Christmas, so I got it. I may never play it.
Shinobi & Samurai also has the benefit of being a free download, so all of my players can get a copy themselves.
Quote from: Rhymer88 on February 05, 2024, 07:32:06 AM
Quote from: King Tyranno on February 04, 2024, 09:47:01 AM
I've heard there are loads of fan made Japanese language Japan exclusive campaigns, scenarios, and even worlds for Call of Cthulhu set around medieval Japan or fantasy worlds based on medieval Japan. None of which have been translated but are pretty good so I'm told. I don't speak or read Moonrunes so I couldn't tell you for certain but I think the fact they exist at all is super interesting. All we really got in English was one sourcebook on Japan that wasn't even very accurate to how Japan really is.
(Update)
I was mistaken. Apparently this book was written in English. Should be useful to you.
What I find odd is the seeming scarcity of Samurai-themed rpg material from Japan itself. Anyone know what (if anything) is going on in Japan in this regard?
Why aren't mountain man and wendigo games bigger in the US?
Well, there have been plenty of Wild West games in the U.S.
Quote from: BadApple on February 05, 2024, 10:51:32 AM
Quote from: Rhymer88 on February 05, 2024, 07:32:06 AM
Quote from: King Tyranno on February 04, 2024, 09:47:01 AM
I've heard there are loads of fan made Japanese language Japan exclusive campaigns, scenarios, and even worlds for Call of Cthulhu set around medieval Japan or fantasy worlds based on medieval Japan. None of which have been translated but are pretty good so I'm told. I don't speak or read Moonrunes so I couldn't tell you for certain but I think the fact they exist at all is super interesting. All we really got in English was one sourcebook on Japan that wasn't even very accurate to how Japan really is.
(Update)
I was mistaken. Apparently this book was written in English. Should be useful to you.
What I find odd is the seeming scarcity of Samurai-themed rpg material from Japan itself. Anyone know what (if anything) is going on in Japan in this regard?
Why aren't mountain man and wendigo games bigger in the US?
Well, there have been plenty of Wild West (and Weird West) games.
Quote from: Rhymer88 on February 05, 2024, 11:23:50 AM
Well, there have been plenty of Wild West (and Weird West) games.
Aside from Deadlands, most of these have been DOA or have never gained any traction. (I lament this but I feel it's the truth.) The problem with wild west RPGs IMO is that most players expect gunfights to feature prominently but doing this creates all kinds of issues for a fully functional game. In reality, a good western game should feature PCs holding off on getting into a gunfight until things have gotten to the point there is no other option. This means a game that is largely social. Most combat focused games pit a high skilled warrior against groups of lesser combat opponents. A Western pits two opponents that are relatively equal to each other.
This is why westerns appeal to the Japanese so much. They get it. The slow build-up, the tension, the opposing stresses of duty and honor, the slow burn of violations and anger until there's nothing left but to have that final showdown where only one man will walk away. To the Japanese, this is a mirror image of the samurai stories. This also showcases why there's not more JRPGs that feature the samurai genre.
I think it's funny and sad that over the top tropes are now being frowned upon. The fun in gaming is dealing with big, common knowledge tropes, both good and bad.
US players and Westerns is a thing. Typically we need some additional trope to make it interesting, though. Westerns we're all the rage in the 1940's and 50's, but now we need zombies or aliens. Or post apocalypse.
I'm also for Japan with a healthy dose of classism, racism, and things like mystic ninjas or a lord that's going to commit seppuku if his lover marries the other guy against her will (Romeo and Juliet plot anyone?).
Those are what add flavor to a game. If this bothers you, you're not in my game.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on February 05, 2024, 06:45:49 PM
I think it's funny and sad that over the top tropes are now being frowned upon. The fun in gaming is dealing with big, common knowledge tropes, both good and bad.
US players and Westerns is a thing. Typically we need some additional trope to make it interesting, though. Westerns we're all the rage in the 1940's and 50's, but now we need zombies or aliens. Or post apocalypse.
I'm also for Japan with a healthy dose of classism, racism, and things like mystic ninjas or a lord that's going to commit seppuku if his lover marries the other guy against her will (Romeo and Juliet plot anyone?).
Those are what add flavor to a game. If this bothers you, you're not in my game.
I enjoy all different kinds of games. If a GM is going to run something over the top and full of cheesy tropes, I can roll. If a GM wants to run a taunt psychological thriller, I'm down. It's really about putting together the table that makes that game good. I love a variety of gaming experiences just like I enjoy a lot of different books and music.
Now, I know that as a GM I have my strengths and weaknesses so there's games I'm fully up for being a player in but I'm no good to run. I run fairly technical games, I need it to be grounded or I run into things I just don't do well. You want a taunt drama game where everything is working to that final showdown at high noon? I can do that. Want a more loose and wacky shoot out game? Not your GM here. Oh, I will support the GM but I am not good at that except as a player.
Oddly, If I'm doing my thing the best way I can, often my players will fill the game with their personality and think I did that. I've run really tight games and they played some absolutely wacky shit. It baffles me but I enjoy it. I love seeing players fill in the game with their ideas and decisions while using my GMing as a foundation to their experience.
I agree that there's different ways of approaching these genres. I honestly think I can do something good with my shinobi game. I can definitely see a table that embraces the Five Rings line of thought for PCs can make an awesome game with the right GM.
Quote from: Rhymer88 on February 05, 2024, 07:32:06 AM
Quote from: King Tyranno on February 04, 2024, 09:47:01 AM
I've heard there are loads of fan made Japanese language Japan exclusive campaigns, scenarios, and even worlds for Call of Cthulhu set around medieval Japan or fantasy worlds based on medieval Japan. None of which have been translated but are pretty good so I'm told. I don't speak or read Moonrunes so I couldn't tell you for certain but I think the fact they exist at all is super interesting. All we really got in English was one sourcebook on Japan that wasn't even very accurate to how Japan really is.
(Update)
I was mistaken. Apparently this book was written in English. Should be useful to you.
What I find odd is the seeming scarcity of Samurai-themed rpg material from Japan itself. Anyone know what (if anything) is going on in Japan in this regard?
The big reason is CoC is the biggest RPG in Japan. Bigger than DnD even. And there's a really famous fan made supplement that due to doujin culture is sold in the shops that deals with Sengoku era Japan. So popular it has spawned it's own fan supplements. People just play that if they want authentic Sengoku era Japan.
As someone who travels to Japan quite frequently, I can confirm that Call of Cthulhu is huge over there. Being a game designer myself, I always like to check the market while I am over there to see what's hot (or not). COC is definitely bigger than D&D and any other western game. It is true that there are tons of third party supplements for the game, many of them are exceptional (in tone and content) and I've bought several of them. I was lucky enough to sit in on a game a couple years ago at Yellow Submarine in Akihabara. The Keeper was pretty good guy and I was surprised to see the players were mostly women. They were a bit startled that I popped my head in to ask if "anyone insane yet?" in Japanese (みんなの頭はまだ大丈夫ですか？). That got a good laugh and I saw an empty seat, so I asked if I could sit and watch. The Keeper then proceeded to give me a pregen and brought me right in! It was a great time and luckily I didn't go insane either...
Quote from: BadApple on February 05, 2024, 11:54:31 AMThe problem with wild west RPGs IMO is that most players expect gunfights to feature prominently
Historical settings in general get no traction because players will not touch a game unless they get to have Kewl Powerz. This has been known for decades. It's not just pure historical, either; there are dozens of Starships & Scoundrels-themed games, and every single one of them has a Jedi analogue character class/playbook even if the source material didn't include Star Wars.
I just cracked the cover of my new Rokugan book.
It's not the first page, but about 10-15 pages in when the writer spends 1&1/2 pages telling the players how to behave. Don't use offensive stereotypes, specifically don't try to emulate an Asian language by making random noises, don't include ritual suicide/seppuku as suicide is too serious a matter, and the nations of Rokugan are paragons of inclusivity; an adopted foreigner into a clan is treated as a full member immediately and nobody questions it, ever.
I'm of two minds. First, don't tell me how to think, what stories I can run, or what plot elements I can and cannot use. I know my friends WAY better than you do Mr know-it-all Author.
Second, I'm used to warnings in my games, so ignoring them is almost second nature at this point. All of my Palladium games have a disclaimer in the front cover that basically says, "It's all make believe. Drugs and insanity are in the real world, no, we're not glorifying them. Karen, grow the #### up. The 'Satanic Panic' is BS and you should know that already"
I might have misquoted it, but that's how I read it all.
Hell, I'm tempted to cut that page out, but my powers of not giving a shit what others think are already strong enough. I'll run my game as I see fit.
——————————-
Also, Adventures in Rokugan is a big ass book. I'm not sure I have time to read it all.
Quote from: daniel_ream on February 06, 2024, 09:13:47 AM
Quote from: BadApple on February 05, 2024, 11:54:31 AMThe problem with wild west RPGs IMO is that most players expect gunfights to feature prominently
Historical settings in general get no traction because players will not touch a game unless they get to have Kewl Powerz. This has been known for decades. It's not just pure historical, either; there are dozens of Starships & Scoundrels-themed games, and every single one of them has a Jedi analogue character class/playbook even if the source material didn't include Star Wars.
You say that like it's a bad thing.
As a grown ass man with over a dozen Star Wars starship models and Lego sets on my shelves of my den, I'm all for every space game having a Jedi.
Note that the slow mutilation of L5R is still ongoing:
https://www.legendofthefiverings.com/asians-represent/
It just feels like re-arranging deck chairs on the titanic at this point. In our overcrowded marketplace of ideas, this watered-down version of the game will never recapture even a fraction of what it meant to me and so many others in its glory days, and frankly I'm ok with that. It's ok for things to fade away. Sometimes it's preferable for them to fade away. Who wants to become Disney Star Wars, a disemboweled zombie on a treadmill?
Quote from: Shipyard Locked on February 06, 2024, 10:42:14 AM
Note that the slow mutilation of L5R is still ongoing:
https://www.legendofthefiverings.com/asians-represent/
It just feels like re-arranging deck chairs on the titanic at this point. In our overcrowded marketplace of ideas, this watered-down version of the game will never recapture even a fraction of what it meant to me and so many others in its glory days, and frankly I'm ok with that. It's ok for things to fade away. Sometimes it's preferable for them to fade away. Who wants to become Disney Star Wars, a disemboweled zombie on a treadmill?
That article makes me want to vomit. Cultural sensitivity to them is apparently removal, not even authenticity.
They seem to freak out at any real world Japanese religious connections. Can you imagine the actual Japanese giving a damn? I sure can't. Literally everyone's gods are summons and monsters in their Shin Megami Tensei CRPG's (there's a TTRPG too over there)*. Shugendo and Shinto references, the horror.
*Kinda wish I'd gone out of my way to buy the old edition when I was in Japan years ago. I like the post-nuclear wasteland Japan with computerized demon summoning wizards setting it had back then. At least I got some Sword World and Wizardry TTRPG products.
Quote from: WERDNA on February 06, 2024, 12:21:07 PM
Quote from: Shipyard Locked on February 06, 2024, 10:42:14 AM
Note that the slow mutilation of L5R is still ongoing:
https://www.legendofthefiverings.com/asians-represent/
It just feels like re-arranging deck chairs on the titanic at this point. In our overcrowded marketplace of ideas, this watered-down version of the game will never recapture even a fraction of what it meant to me and so many others in its glory days, and frankly I'm ok with that. It's ok for things to fade away. Sometimes it's preferable for them to fade away. Who wants to become Disney Star Wars, a disemboweled zombie on a treadmill?
That article makes me want to vomit. Cultural sensitivity to them is apparently removal, not even authenticity.
They seem to freak out at any real world Japanese religious connections. Can you imagine the actual Japanese giving a damn? I sure can't. Literally everyone's gods are summons and monsters in their Shin Megami Tensei CRPG's (there's a TTRPG too over there)*. Shugendo and Shinto references, the horror.
*Kinda wish I'd gone out of my way to buy the old edition when I was in Japan years ago. I like the post-nuclear wasteland Japan with computerized demon summoning wizards setting it had back then. At least I got some Sword World and Wizardry TTRPG products.
Yes, yes I can. But not in an SJW way. Fuck the woke.
My Japanese friends are thrilled when their culture bleeds over to us. Not the shallow stuff like anime but more nuts and bolts stuff like family structure and social motivations. The fact that we might explore their spiritual beliefs in a personal way through games would delight them. (I'm sure they'd be happy to tune it for more proper and accurate depictios of those beliefs.) They have a different way of treating the sacred things in their culture.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked on February 06, 2024, 10:42:14 AM
Note that the slow mutilation of L5R is still ongoing:
https://www.legendofthefiverings.com/asians-represent/
It just feels like re-arranging deck chairs on the titanic at this point. In our overcrowded marketplace of ideas, this watered-down version of the game will never recapture even a fraction of what it meant to me and so many others in its glory days, and frankly I'm ok with that. It's ok for things to fade away. Sometimes it's preferable for them to fade away. Who wants to become Disney Star Wars, a disemboweled zombie on a treadmill?
Which version of L5R is the "best" one.
I have a PDF of 3rd edition, and now own the dead tree D20 version based on D&D 5E as I mentioned.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on February 06, 2024, 12:54:59 PM
Which version of L5R is the "best" one.
I have a PDF of 3rd edition, and now own the dead tree D20 version based on D&D 5E as I mentioned.
1st edition had the most speed and verve, but needed some polish.
2nd edition stupidly changed the core math and nobody played or plays it as a result.
3rd edition reverted the math, but cranked up all the powers, ballooned the dice pools, and complexified the math until it became
Diet Exalted.
4th edition reined in the power level again, cleaned up the rules and took a meta-plot neutral approach to the setting, but could have used even more restraint to bring it back in line with 1st edition.
EDIT: Oh right, 5th edition. Proprietary dice and dumb setting changes. Hard pass.
My conclusion: In an ideal world, the best version of L5R would be a hybrid of 1st and 4th. In reality, I run 4th because it has the most complete and mechanically sound core book. I still pine for the smaller dice-pools and simpler subsystems.
Incidentally, the D&D 3e version of Oriental Adventures was actually set in Rokugan iirc.
I think one of the easiest ways to play a Samurai is to play Palladium Fantasy, call yourself a Samurai, roll up a knight, then swap out Weapon Proficiency: Lance that only knights & paladins get for Weapon Proficiency: Longbow that only archers and rangers can have.
After all, a samurai was mostly a mounted archer. Swordsmanship wasn't their main thing, nor was heavy cavalry charges.
That's grossly over simplifying it, though.
Having a game based on Japan is still interesting. I'm still leaning towards either Shinobi & Samurai, or Chanbara.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on February 06, 2024, 05:17:01 PM
After all, a samurai was mostly a mounted archer. Swordsmanship wasn't their main thing, not was heavy cavalry charges.
That's grossly over simplifying it, though.
Yeah, but while they were mounted archers for most of their history, most game settings tend to be based on the Sengoku period or Edo period. In the former mounted spearmanship and swordsmanship start to dominate; in the latter the sword has acquired it's famed significance and is the weapon of choice in most combat situations.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked on February 06, 2024, 10:42:14 AM
Note that the slow mutilation of L5R is still ongoing:
https://www.legendofthefiverings.com/asians-represent/
It just feels like re-arranging deck chairs on the titanic at this point. In our overcrowded marketplace of ideas, this watered-down version of the game will never recapture even a fraction of what it meant to me and so many others in its glory days, and frankly I'm ok with that. It's ok for things to fade away. Sometimes it's preferable for them to fade away. Who wants to become Disney Star Wars, a disemboweled zombie on a treadmill?
Not sure about that other person but Daniel Kwan is the total embodiment of a banana in Asian parlance. So anything he says has zero credibility. But, as another poster noted, real Asians don't give a fuck about this cultural sensitivity garbage.
Quote from: WERDNA on February 06, 2024, 06:48:08 PM
Quote from: weirdguy564 on February 06, 2024, 05:17:01 PM
After all, a samurai was mostly a mounted archer. Swordsmanship wasn't their main thing, not was heavy cavalry charges.
That's grossly over simplifying it, though.
Yeah, but while they were mounted archers for most of their history, most game settings tend to be based on the Sengoku period or Edo period. In the former mounted spearmanship and swordsmanship start to dominate; in the latter the sword has acquired it's famed significance and is the weapon of choice in most combat situations.
True, the idealized Edo period samurai seems to be the default for most TTRPGs. They also tend to perpetuate the original "Oriental
Adventures" mistaken practice of differentiating samurai and bushi. But it's just a game; we shouldn't expect too much historical accuracy. And it's not like Western-derived settings aspire to accuracy either.
Quote from: Persimmon on February 06, 2024, 07:48:01 PM
... but Daniel Kwan is the total embodiment of a banana in Asian parlance. So anything he says has zero credibility.
Zero credibility, but maximum impact.
He gets the smug satisfaction of wrapping (smothering) the official current version of the setting with Nerf foam. Meanwhile, my friends and I, who've been there since the beginning, just shake our heads powerlessly and continue to skip giving money to something we used to support.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked on February 06, 2024, 10:42:14 AM
Note that the slow mutilation of L5R is still ongoing:
https://www.legendofthefiverings.com/asians-represent/
It just feels like re-arranging deck chairs on the titanic at this point. In our overcrowded marketplace of ideas, this watered-down version of the game will never recapture even a fraction of what it meant to me and so many others in its glory days, and frankly I'm ok with that. It's ok for things to fade away. Sometimes it's preferable for them to fade away. Who wants to become Disney Star Wars, a disemboweled zombie on a treadmill?
Can you imagine if one of us here took the same attitude towards Japanese people playing Call of Cthulhu? Like, if we were outraged that one of them played a Christian priest or Protestant preacher, or mispronounced a place name in New England, or got some minor detail of the setting wrong? Or if the Japanese players had to defer everything to the one white person at the table if that person disagreed about a cultural detail? I don't give a shit about any of that stuff; I'm just glad they play the game and take an interest in Lovecraft's creations.
Quote from: I on February 07, 2024, 04:54:40 AM
Can you imagine if one of us here took the same attitude towards Japanese people playing Call of Cthulhu? Like, if we were outraged that one of them played a Christian priest or Protestant preacher, or mispronounced a place name in New England, or got some minor detail of the setting wrong?
It's worse than that, L5R's world isn't even close to reality. The equivalent would be coming down hard on the video game
Dark Souls for "insensitive misuse" of western themes.
But yes, there are few things more bitterly funny than these myopic moral crusaders treating Japan like a helpless victim culture. I'm like, dude, look at the victories and atrocities they racked up during World War II. Look at the economic and cultural power they have wielded for decades, even in nations who have serious grievances against them because of that war.
Japan doesn't need or deserve this special coddling.
The more I look at Chanbara, the more I like it.
I just wish it was better written. It assumes you know old school D&D rules by memory. This is not a newbie friendly game. There are no explanations on how to play RPG's, or how to GM, ect. It even forgets to explain some things about hit points and other rules.
The two things about it that drive me bonkers required me to break out my copy of Old School Essentials to decipher what was going on.
The Bad.
1. Character classes go up to level 14, but levels 10-14 have asterixis next to the hit points. I was pretty sure I knew what that means, and by that it means you change how you calculate hit points. However, it specifically means you don't get your Constitution bonus anymore. The game never says that, though. Like I said, I had to look it up in Old School Essentials to get this explained to me.
2. Monsters have Hit Dice, but also have asterixis next to the HD number. Like a HD 4*** for hit dice. What do those asterixis mean? Well, again we consult Old School Essentials. The asterixis mean how many supernatural abilities that monster has, used to calculate the XP killing it is worth.
3. Character Creation. The game says to roll 4D6-L, and arrange as you like for your six abilities. Well, that means Roll 4D6, drop the lowest (the -L part), and then you can assign the six numbers to your six abilities as you see fit.
It is a bit frustrating, but such is life, eh?
However, beyond that I actually really like Chanbara as a game. It has a lot of features I don't think I've ever seen before.
The Good.
1. Tactical Attack vs Tactical Difficulty. This is a second Attack Bonus vs Armor Rating that characters in this game have. These are your special moves, like throws, grapples, disrupting spell casting, pushes, ect. Attacks that don't do damage, but have another effect.
2. Every third level you get two choices for a new benefit called a Profile Ability. You can choose one. Class customization is a big deal to me, and this game has it.
3. Skill Dice. On the levels you don't get a special Profile Ability, you get a skill dice instead. These are 1D6 dice used as tokens. Your class uses them to activate your special Profile Abilities. For example, the Mahotsukai magicians can use one of their dice when casting a spell. If you roll a 5 or a 6 on it, then the spell is NOT used up per normal Vancian D&D magic rules, and you can cast it again. Ninja can use a dice to hypnotize a victim with a suggestion that lasts the 1D6 days you roll on the dice. Stuff like that. Each Profile Ability is different.
4. Renamed Savings Throws. Earth, Fire, Water, Wood, and Metal, which apparently are the core elements of Taoist philosophy. Otherwise, they're just the savings throws you're used to.
5. 11 classes. This I like, There are four warrior, three magicians, and four rogues.
6. Skills. You get a handful of skills, one or two from your chosen class, and one or two from your background/social status. Things like Administrative, Trade, Warfare, Arts, Crime, Fishing, Crafting (pick a specific craft like blacksmith), and sailing. 20 in total. Well, 26 if you also include six special Ninja skills that only they get.
7. Loss of eyes, hands, and feet. And becoming Zatoichi is possible. That is to say a disabled person who can act as if they're not disabled. The classic "Blind Wandering Samurai" and such.
I like the game. It is a BX based game like Shinobi & Samurai, or Whitebox: Eastern Adventures. It is the most complex one of the bunch, but not by that much.
Just know that you need to know how to play D&D already, as the game is not written with much (often none) explanation for a lot of terminology, concepts, and game rules.
Quote from: I on January 29, 2024, 10:20:55 PM
Anyone who wants to run an RPG set in feudal Japan or a similar setting should definitely get Tadashi Ehara's books Daimyo of 1867 and especially Shogun and Daimyo. They're fun to read even if you don't use them as gaming material.
They're well-researched historical supplements that can be used with any RPG; details at http://diffworlds.com/samurai.htm
Allan.
Quote from: grodog on February 07, 2024, 10:20:21 PM
Quote from: I on January 29, 2024, 10:20:55 PM
Anyone who wants to run an RPG set in feudal Japan or a similar setting should definitely get Tadashi Ehara's books Daimyo of 1867 and especially Shogun and Daimyo. They're fun to read even if you don't use them as gaming material.
They're well-researched historical supplements that can be used with any RPG; details at http://diffworlds.com/samurai.htm
Allan.
There is an English translation of the
Bansenshukai Ninja Manual from the Edo Period. Certainly worth a read if you are utilizing Ninja in a campaign. While it stems from other Edo period texts, here's a fun fact: one form of
kinton no jutsu involved tossing handfuls of gold coins on the ground either as a general distraction or to help one escape pursuers. A classic D&D tactic as a ninja art, even if only a theoretical one.
Interesting topic, thanks. I need to look these settings up.
I personally have several years of experience with L5R and with several editions.
I can positively endorse L5R as long as it is Alderac edition. The latest one is
nothing but a woke bs.
Quote from: grodog on February 07, 2024, 10:20:21 PM
Quote from: I on January 29, 2024, 10:20:55 PM
Anyone who wants to run an RPG set in feudal Japan or a similar setting should definitely get Tadashi Ehara's books Daimyo of 1867 and especially Shogun and Daimyo. They're fun to read even if you don't use them as gaming material.
They're well-researched historical supplements that can be used with any RPG; details at http://diffworlds.com/samurai.htm
Allan.
Well, the very first line of the description is technically inaccurate, but these could be useful for gamers due to the sheer detail. The bakufu was a parallel military administration to the imperial civil bureaucracy. Shoguns were not regents to the emperors; the title of regent is a different office. There could be regents to both the shogun and the emperor at the same time if both those individuals were minors. Likely has little effect on most gamers, but don't start your ad for historical accuracy with an incorrect statement.
No offense to you, Allan; just think the author should be more careful with his language.
Quote from: Persimmon on February 08, 2024, 08:37:45 AM
Quote from: grodog on February 07, 2024, 10:20:21 PM
Quote from: I on January 29, 2024, 10:20:55 PM
Anyone who wants to run an RPG set in feudal Japan or a similar setting should definitely get Tadashi Ehara's books Daimyo of 1867 and especially Shogun and Daimyo. They're fun to read even if you don't use them as gaming material.
They're well-researched historical supplements that can be used with any RPG; details at http://diffworlds.com/samurai.htm
Allan.
Well, the very first line of the description is technically inaccurate, but these could be useful for gamers due to the sheer detail. The bakufu was a parallel military administration to the imperial civil bureaucracy. Shoguns were not regents to the emperors; the title of regent is a different office. There could be regents to both the shogun and the emperor at the same time if both those individuals were minors. Likely has little effect on most gamers, but don't start your ad for historical accuracy with an incorrect statement.
No offense to you, Allan; just think the author should be more careful with his language.
Even I caught that, and I am into only the first of the many books your syllabi recommends - the book about ninja by Stephen Turnbull. So, yeah, I'm a complete novice. If I can catch it, it says something.
Late to the party to recommend Bushido, I GMed it for a couple of years.
Yes, it's confusing and poorly explained. You probably won't understand character creation or the skill system the first time around. Just remember that the BCS (base chance of success) rule is the game's core mechanic. Skills are measured in % scores that convert to a D20-based BCS and then you roll the D20.
It's a skill-based game more than a level-based game, but it has both and the levels matter.
Quote from: Persimmon on February 08, 2024, 08:37:45 AM
Quote from: grodog on February 07, 2024, 10:20:21 PM
Quote from: I on January 29, 2024, 10:20:55 PM
Anyone who wants to run an RPG set in feudal Japan or a similar setting should definitely get Tadashi Ehara's books Daimyo of 1867 and especially Shogun and Daimyo. They're fun to read even if you don't use them as gaming material.
They're well-researched historical supplements that can be used with any RPG; details at http://diffworlds.com/samurai.htm
Allan.
Well, the very first line of the description is technically inaccurate, but these could be useful for gamers due to the sheer detail. The bakufu was a parallel military administration to the imperial civil bureaucracy. Shoguns were not regents to the emperors; the title of regent is a different office. There could be regents to both the shogun and the emperor at the same time if both those individuals were minors. Likely has little effect on most gamers, but don't start your ad for historical accuracy with an incorrect statement.
No offense to you, Allan; just think the author should be more careful with his language.
This is precisely the shit I'm trying to avoid when working on my own project. I've got about 30 books to read and hopefully that will have the information to keep me dialed in.
OK, let me sum up the games I am looking at, some of which you guys suggested.
A) Games based on ye olde D&D.
1. Shinobi & Samurai, based on BX D&D (and is free to download)
2. WhiteBox: Eastern Adventures, based on zero-edition D&D (and is free to download).
3. Ruins and Ronin, based on zero-edition D&D.
B) Games that are old
1. Palladium Fantasy, with Ninjas & Superspies/Rifts Japan/Rifter #27 to add Samurai and Chi-powers to the game.
2. Bushido, which is its own game, old, poorly written, but contains a bunch of Japanese cultural information.
C) Games that are new
1. Adventures in Rokugan, which is Legend of the 5 rings, but re-written to use 5th Edtion D&D rules. Not Japan, but a fictional universe with its own lore, but close to Japan.
2. Legend of the five Rings 3rd edition, also set in Rokugan. Sometimes these rules are called the 1D10 rules, or the Roll and Keep system.
3. Sengoku. It has its own rules, but this game has a lot of real Japanese culture lore in it.
So, which game is my winner?
I'm going to go with....
...Chanbara.
(https://d1vzi28wh99zvq.cloudfront.net/images/8305/232335.jpg)
I would not have called that when I started this thread. I was going to go with Shinobi & Samurai, because it was simple, free, and had a lot of classes (10).
What sold me was that Chanbara is a short rulebook, but is a bit more complex than a typical D&D clone game. This game is based on Basic D&D after all, but it isn't the same at all.
It has a couple of features I like,
As you level up, you can customize your character with Special Abilities. These abilities will cost you a "Combat Die" token to activate (everyone starts with 3 Combat Dice). The character levels without special abilities instead reward you 1 more Combat Die. These combat dice are used differently for each class in the game. Every 3rd level you get a special ability, and your Combat Dice works with it, and each one is different. You often roll the 1D6 combat dice, and the value means something. There are too many to list, but things like extra damage, or hypnosis that last 1D6 days, or turning into a shadow for 1D6 rounds, ect.
The other thing is the game has that is new (like I've NEVER seen this before) is a completely second attack type vs defense type called "Tactical Attack vs Tactical Defense". Instead of your strength being the attribute here, your Intelligence is the ability modifier you add into the roll. Tactical Defense uses both Dexterity and Wisdom.
What are Tactical attacks? It is combat that does NOT do damage, but does weird stuff. Pushes, Disarms, Sundering Armor, Disrupting spellcasting, pins, escaping a hold, etc. Again, because the Tactical Attack attacks use INT, and the Tactical Defense uses DEX and WIS, this means you can have a physically weak Samurai, but if he is smart as hell, then you can pull off some disabling actions that evens out a fight in his favor anyway, even though he is not very strong.
I think this was done to avoid having "dump stats". You still use INT, DEX, and WIS as a warrior.
The other selling point is the sheer amount of classes to pick from. I don't like having just the classic four of fighter, magician, cleric, and thief. I want more, and Chanbara has more (11 classes total).
My runner ups were Shinobi & Samurai because it was easy, has a lot of classes, and is free to download. The third runner up was Adventures in Rokugan, because it is 5E.
But, Chanbara is the game I am picking now, unless another game comes up. But, after 7 pages of discussion I think we have sussed this genre out pretty well.
I've been looking more into these games and I'm surprised by how varied they all are.
I'm starting to think a fictional setting is best because you don't have to know any real history to "get it right".
I think that's the selling point of Rokugan.
———————————-
Also, I have a question about warriors/bushi from Chanbara. The game is based on old school D&D rules, which I'm not very familiar with. The attack bonus modifier starts out as one number, but then splits into two separate numbers at level 5, then into three numbers at level 10.
Why? The game never explains what this is. I'm not sure it matters as the various numbers are identical, so differentiating them seems pointless.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on February 15, 2024, 06:25:43 PM
Also, I have a question about warriors/bushi from Chanbara. The game is based on old school D&D rules, which I'm not very familiar with. The attack bonus modifier starts out as one number, but then splits into two separate numbers at level 5, then into three numbers at level 10.
Why? The game never explains what this is. I'm not sure it matters as the various numbers are identical, so differentiating them seems pointless.
That usually indicates multiple attacks in a single round.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on February 15, 2024, 07:17:27 PM
That usually indicates multiple attacks in a single round.
Ok. That actually makes sense.
That is the third time this set of rules assumed the reader knows something without explaining it. The other two relate to stats with asterisk next to them. Level-10 players and up switch to a different hit point increases, and the other being Hit Dice for monsters have one or more asterisks next to the number. That means how many special abilities the monster has, and thus how to calculate its XP reward. Sort of pointless, as each monster already lists it XP reward already.
It seems there was another RuneQuest Japan supplement besides the old Land of the Ninja: Land of the Samurai set in the late Heian period. Honestly, on a flip through there are a number of things I don't think it did very accurately for the period. I don't recall there even being an onmyouji character type which would have been even more important back then than in the Sengoku or Edo period.
The Rokurokubi is bizarrely described like the Malaysian Penanggalan which is even more strange than Bushido confusing them with the similar Nukekubi. Honestly it's a yokai that doesn't fit too well in the setting as it's a solidly Edo period piece of folklore (albeit influenced potentially by older Chinese lore). It also gets the Mujina wrong, but many western sources carry Lafcadio Hearn's error of confusing the Mujina with the Nopperabo (also a more Edo period bit of lore iirc). Needed less Edo period Yokai in the bestiary and more info about Oni, Nue, Tengu, Yuki-onna, Shikome and Tsukumogami. Stuff that people in the period thought about.
For magic there's also a mention of significant persecution of Yojutsu users which seems dubious. Even so, if you want to do old Japan in BRP it would be a handy resource when paired with ones own research.
Quote from: WERDNA on February 06, 2024, 01:26:31 PM
Incidentally, the D&D 3e version of Oriental Adventures was actually set in Rokugan iirc.
As a person who acquired a PDF of Oriental Adventures 3.5, I can confirm this.
It's funny how playing Samurai means either historical Japan with mysticism turned on, or Rokugan. Those seem to be the only two settings.
This thread reminded me of the upcoming game World of Kensai by Riotminds. I haven't seen anyone talking about this at all. It is based on 5e so that might turn some people off. Seems to be a world in the same vein of Rokugan. The art looks evocative though.
https://riotminds.se/product/the-world-of-kensei/
*double post
Quote from: Teodrik on March 17, 2024, 02:01:49 PM
This thread reminded me of the upcoming game World of Kensai by Riotminds. I haven't seen anyone talking about this at all. It is based on 5e so that might turn some people off. Seems to be a world in the same vein of Rokugan. The art looks evocative though.
https://riotminds.se/product/the-world-of-kensei/
That does look interesting and a bit more of a blender mash of Asia than Rokugan though it's hard to tell the woke factor from this. An OSR version would be cool.
Quote from: Persimmon on March 17, 2024, 02:45:04 PM
Quote from: Teodrik on March 17, 2024, 02:01:49 PM
This thread reminded me of the upcoming game World of Kensai by Riotminds. I haven't seen anyone talking about this at all. It is based on 5e so that might turn some people off. Seems to be a world in the same vein of Rokugan. The art looks evocative though.
https://riotminds.se/product/the-world-of-kensei/
That does look interesting and a bit more of a blender mash of Asia than Rokugan though it's hard to tell the woke factor from this. An OSR version would be cool.
Yeah after a closer look it indeed seems to more of a mixed Asia blend than Japan specifically. I don't now either about woke factor. Riotminds has done some knee bending(self-censorship) in the past, but my impression has been it is more lipservice than being zealous true believers. They've been heavily attacked by the woke crowd for more than two decades and caved to pressure sometimes.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on March 16, 2024, 10:59:36 PM
Quote from: WERDNA on February 06, 2024, 01:26:31 PM
Incidentally, the D&D 3e version of Oriental Adventures was actually set in Rokugan iirc.
As a person who acquired a PDF of Oriental Adventures 3.5, I can confirm this.
It's funny how playing Samurai means either historical Japan with mysticism turned on, or Rokugan. Those seem to be the only two settings.
I'm of the opinion that samurai really only work in context. In order for them to functional characters they need to have a place in the larger society they belong to. That can be transposed into another setting but it would have to be done with the full understanding of what is it that makes a samurai a samurai rather than just a rich jackass with a sword.
So, I found another Samurai based RPG.
It is called Kogarashi. It is a rules lite game based on something called the TRUE-D6 system. They do mean it, too. The game uses just 1D6 for all dice rolls, and does so in some clever ways.
1. It uses the classic six attributes, though Constitution is gone, and Honor is added (they're also renamed to be Japanese names, such as Intelligence is now Chi).
2. The game is a roll under system. You make your dice rolls by rolling equal or under your six attributes to do everything from negotiating, to sword strikes, to casting magic. It makes heavy use of the Advantage/Disadvantage mechanic.
3. Your stats are not rolled at character creation. You just get a 1, 2, 3, 3, 3, and 4 to distribute as you see fit, making it a character point builder system, not a random roll system.
4. Hit points are your strength attribute plus your level. If you have strength of 2 and you are level 3, then you have 5 hit points.
5. Weapon Damage rolls are not needed. Instead, your attack roll is your damage. As I said, you roll against your attribute trying to equal it or roll below it. Thus, you really want to roll equal to your attribute to do max damage. If you have a strength of 2 as I said above, then you will never do more than 2 damage per hit. Interestingly, your choice of weapon is irrelevant. A war fan can be just as deadly as a 2-handed pole arm. Well, mostly. Unarmed attacks roll with disadvantage, so there is that.
6. Armor is a savings throw. A shield gives 1 point of defense, light armor 2, and heavy armor 3. A shield and armor together means you negate all damage, otherwise your 1D6 savings roll is like the reverse of attacking somebody. You roll equal or under your defense, and that is how many damage points you negate.
7. Skills and Magic are similar and often treated like "use it until you lose it." There are three types. Either use it as often as you like, or has "Fail" or "Rest" as limits. That is to say you can do somethings until you fail a dice roll (rolls are made against your own attributes, just with advantage or disadvantage per the situation). Or if it is "rest" you can use it once and is available again after you get some sleep, regardless if it succeeded or not. Spells and skills are treated almost the same. Different classes just have access to different types of skills or spells.
8. There are also races you can be, though limited to just Japanese Dwarves, six types of shape-changing animals, as well as six types of mixed heritage humans with supernatural ancestors. Those ancestors give them an ability (like a man with a dragon grandfather gives him Searing Gaze ability).
Overall I am impressed by this small game, and in particular by two things. How they squeeze every last ounce of gameplay out of just using 1D6 dice rolling (the damage is also your attack roll all in one is pretty neat).
The second thing is the art style of the book. The pictures are amazing. However, the text and charts are worth mentioning too. The game uses Times New Roman, like a typewriter used to have. But even more crazy is that the charts in the game are done in an ASCII style using dashes, + symbols, and vertical lines you get from your keyboard. It's odd looking, but it looks cool to me. Those ASCII charts are all perfectly legible, and don't have any issues. Its just a weird art style for the book pages.
I highly recommend this one.
Will it supplant Chanbara for me? Maybe not, but damn is it close.
Quote from: Persimmon on February 08, 2024, 08:37:45 AMQuote from: grodog on February 07, 2024, 10:20:21 PMQuote from: I on January 29, 2024, 10:20:55 PMAnyone who wants to run an RPG set in feudal Japan or a similar setting should definitely get Tadashi Ehara's books Daimyo of 1867 and especially Shogun and Daimyo. They're fun to read even if you don't use them as gaming material.
They're well-researched historical supplements that can be used with any RPG; details at http://diffworlds.com/samurai.htm
Allan.
Well, the very first line of the description is technically inaccurate, but these could be useful for gamers due to the sheer detail. The bakufu was a parallel military administration to the imperial civil bureaucracy. Shoguns were not regents to the emperors; the title of regent is a different office. There could be regents to both the shogun and the emperor at the same time if both those individuals were minors. Likely has little effect on most gamers, but don't start your ad for historical accuracy with an incorrect statement.
I don't know the subject matter, but I'm sure Tadashi would appreciate the feedback if you reach out to him: info@diffworlds.com
Quote from: Persimmon on February 08, 2024, 08:37:45 AMNo offense to you, Allan; just think the author should be more careful with his language.
None taken! :)
Allan.
So I've been playing around with Kogarashi some more. I think I like it more than Chanbara.
I'm just more impressed with rules lite games, and Kogarashi is even more interesting than most rules lite games.
Don't get me wrong. Chanbara is still an awesome game. I would recommend either game. I just am liking Kogarashi a bit more. Why? Kogarashi is a bit more well written, and it has material in it for solo play.
Give it a look, guys. Kogarashi is a fun game.
Kogarashi on DTRPG (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/469466/Kogarashi)
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/302185/Kaigaku-Second-Edition (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/302185/Kaigaku-Second-Edition)
Quote from: weirdguy564 on April 14, 2024, 11:05:50 PMSo, I found another Samurai based RPG.
It is called Kogarashi. It is a rules lite game based on something called the TRUE-D6 system. They do mean it, too. The game uses just 1D6 for all dice rolls, and does so in some clever ways.
1. It uses the classic six attributes, though Constitution is gone, and Honor is added (they're also renamed to be Japanese names, such as Intelligence is now Chi).
2. The game is a roll under system. You make your dice rolls by rolling equal or under your six attributes to do everything from negotiating, to sword strikes, to casting magic. It makes heavy use of the Advantage/Disadvantage mechanic.
3. Your stats are not rolled at character creation. You just get a 1, 2, 3, 3, 3, and 4 to distribute as you see fit, making it a character point builder system, not a random roll system.
4. Hit points are your strength attribute plus your level. If you have strength of 2 and you are level 3, then you have 5 hit points.
5. Weapon Damage rolls are not needed. Instead, your attack roll is your damage. As I said, you roll against your attribute trying to equal it or roll below it. Thus, you really want to roll equal to your attribute to do max damage. If you have a strength of 2 as I said above, then you will never do more than 2 damage per hit. Interestingly, your choice of weapon is irrelevant. A war fan can be just as deadly as a 2-handed pole arm. Well, mostly. Unarmed attacks roll with disadvantage, so there is that.
6. Armor is a savings throw. A shield gives 1 point of defense, light armor 2, and heavy armor 3. A shield and armor together means you negate all damage, otherwise your 1D6 savings roll is like the reverse of attacking somebody. You roll equal or under your defense, and that is how many damage points you negate.
7. Skills and Magic are similar and often treated like "use it until you lose it." There are three types. Either use it as often as you like, or has "Fail" or "Rest" as limits. That is to say you can do somethings until you fail a dice roll (rolls are made against your own attributes, just with advantage or disadvantage per the situation). Or if it is "rest" you can use it once and is available again after you get some sleep, regardless if it succeeded or not. Spells and skills are treated almost the same. Different classes just have access to different types of skills or spells.
8. There are also races you can be, though limited to just Japanese Dwarves, six types of shape-changing animals, as well as six types of mixed heritage humans with supernatural ancestors. Those ancestors give them an ability (like a man with a dragon grandfather gives him Searing Gaze ability).
Overall I am impressed by this small game, and in particular by two things. How they squeeze every last ounce of gameplay out of just using 1D6 dice rolling (the damage is also your attack roll all in one is pretty neat).
The second thing is the art style of the book. The pictures are amazing. However, the text and charts are worth mentioning too. The game uses Times New Roman, like a typewriter used to have. But even more crazy is that the charts in the game are done in an ASCII style using dashes, + symbols, and vertical lines you get from your keyboard. It's odd looking, but it looks cool to me. Those ASCII charts are all perfectly legible, and don't have any issues. Its just a weird art style for the book pages.
I highly recommend this one.
Will it supplant Chanbara for me? Maybe not, but damn is it close.
Dude this game looks awesome! I have been wanting to play in a feudal Japan campaign for a while now.
You need to run Kogarashi online, and invite me!
I made a sizeable post on Japanese ritual magic in another thread and thought people that follow this thread might be interested: https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/medieval-authentic-supernatural-lore/35/
Quote from: WERDNA on May 11, 2024, 07:13:43 PMI made a sizeable post on Japanese ritual magic in another thread and thought people that follow this thread might be interested: https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/medieval-authentic-supernatural-lore/35/
Thanks, dude.
If anyone is curious I'll comment on the magic systems found in the two games I now recommend for Japanese setting RPG's, namely Chanbara and Kogarashi.
Chanbara is very old school D&D, complete with a spells-per-day chart. It is different in that the game includes "Bonus Dice" D6's for every class, and each class uses them differently. A spell caster can use their and if you roll a 5 or 6 (aka 33%) you don't lose the spell slot. You can feel free to use it again later.
Kogarashi is a skill roll system. Every class has 20 abilities you can pick one per level from. For the wizard class you get some "skills" that are labeled as spells. You roll your skill check, and if you make it you can use it again. It is a use-it-until-you-lose-it system. If you never roll badly, you can keep throwing out spells as long as you want. Also, just something that makes me happy is that the "fireball" spell is actually summoning a Jade Shuriken. I like details like that.