Quote from: jan paparazzi;807970Got my hands now on a 5th edition pdf and it reminds me a lot about WoD rpg's, but there are also elements that are very unlike the WoD. No story-arc writing, no endless talk about the themes and more focus to the world outside of the mage society.

My impression is that the principles behind Ars Magica were in the same social circle as the principles behind early White Wolf. So it not surprising there are similarities. And likewise since the split it not surprising that there are differences.

It also my impression that it developed into its own specialized interest similar to Harn, Golorantha, etc. This one focused on the Mythic Europe setting of the game. Hence all the supplements that expand the line beyond the focus of PCs playing mages. Because it is grounded in the same medieval wellspring that D&D and other fantasy RPGs sprang from there is a lot of useful material in the line.

Song of Ice and Fire, although Exalted also have social interaction rules.

Quote from: estar;807971My impression is that the principles behind Ars Magica were in the same social circle as the principles behind early White Wolf. So it not surprising there are similarities. And likewise since the split it not surprising that there are differences.

It also my impression that it developed into its own specialized interest similar to Harn, Golorantha, etc. This one focused on the Mythic Europe setting of the game. Hence all the supplements that expand the line beyond the focus of PCs playing mages. Because it is grounded in the same medieval wellspring that D&D and other fantasy RPGs sprang from there is a lot of useful material in the line.

Vampire the Masquerade had The Gilded Cage, a sourcebook detailing the corporate sector, the government and the underworld. It was obviously a bit campy as all oWoD was. Strangely enough there is not a thing like it in nWoD.

I like Ars Magica better. It is more practical than both WoD versions, but then again I seem to prefer pretty much anything over the WoD out of practical reasons.

Another vote for Ars Magica.

I'd be really hard pressed to say. I think most systems with some sort of social skills, good background and well - prepared factions for the given conflict, will do the trick. I'd say though that in political campaigns, if the system has flaws that are personality based, it is their time to shine - if the player's character is lecherous, his opposition will spy on him the easiest way possible. If he's honourable, well, we all know what happened to Ned Stark. If he's a craven, the Regent's strongarm will visit him in the night, reminding him where his loyalties should lie.

As for players' directly backstabbing, well...it gives me pain comparable to slamming my cock in the doorway (and yes, I have been there), but I have heard good things about (sigh) Burning Empire or whatever it was called by Crane.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;807982Vampire the Masquerade had The Gilded Cage, a sourcebook detailing the corporate sector, the government and the underworld. It was obviously a bit campy as all oWoD was. Strangely enough there is not a thing like it in nWoD.

I like Ars Magica better. It is more practical than both WoD versions, but then again I seem to prefer pretty much anything over the WoD out of practical reasons.

Mage: The Ascension was essentially an attempt to answer the question, "If Clan Tremere were originally a House of the Order of Hermes, and mages still exist, then why can't they throw fireballs and turn people into lawn chairs?"

JG

Quote from: James Gillen;808065Mage: The Ascension was essentially an attempt to answer the question, "If Clan Tremere were originally a House of the Order of Hermes, and mages still exist, then why can't they throw fireballs and turn people into lawn chairs?"

JG

Well the Hermetic Magic as depicted in Ars Magica had specific limitations that didn't lend itself to D&D style fireballs. Turning people into lawn chairs was difficult and temporary at best.

Plus Ars Magica had Wizard's Twilight and Warping as a result of dabbling too long and too far into magic.

Ars 5th GM's advice starts with "Roleplaying game stories should not have
a plot in advance.". Something you would never see in a WoD game. Also it writes about active and reactive stories and it writes about exploration, treasure hunting, quests, cisis at home and politics. All with examples of stories.

Old mage writes a lot about "With power comes responsibility", new mage writes a lot about "Power leads to corruption". Themes that I understand, but I still have no idea how I can play that in a tabletop rpg. No idea how that plays out. Then they both write about possible conflicts (old vs new, order vs order, mage vs hunter etc.) without mentioning what it is that the pc's do. Combined with their focus on writing a story with different scenes it's just unpractical.

A shame really, because those games are very similar in setup to Ars Magica, but it makes it harder to run one than necessary.

Edit:
To be fair old mage has much better advice than new mage. New mage focuses so much on the personal themes and morality, it really doesn't offer anything I would be interested in doing.

Do you know games which actually have good advice on how to play out a political campaign?

Quote from: Rincewind1;808008I'd be really hard pressed to say. I think most systems with some sort of social skills, good background and well - prepared factions for the given conflict, will do the trick.

Agreed. I think that's why I got my hands on City of Clocks recently. It has the setting for politics.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;808334Do you know games which actually have good advice on how to play out a political campaign?

In that case, another vote for Ars Magica and Song of Ice and Fire. Amber too, but my own problem with Amber is, that it's Amber, and I just don't find that setting as one I'd like to play in.

I read a few other fora and one poster made the distinction between a Court and a Rulers game. The first is about intrigue and secrets and who likes who, the second is about resources like troops, allies and territory.

Mentioned are all the games we mentioned and Legend of the Five Rings and Pendragon. All coming from the same cloth I think. WoD settings are of course political as well, but they fail to give any advice on how to do a political campaign (as well as other gamestyles). L5R sets you up with several different campaign styles that can make you go to war, investigate weird murders or be a diplomat. Almost as broad as Traveller.

Oh, I saw Burning Wheel/Burning Empires getting mentioned as well as Houses of the Blooded. Those games might have some nifty tricks, but as a whole they are a little too arty farty for me. I am already struggling with Vampire which let's you play Mask & Dirge scenes and other stuff that only seems worth playing during downtime. So better not go there.

Quote from: NinjaWeasel;807510Anyone got any experience using Dynasties & Demagogues for Penumbra? I ordered it from Noble Knight recently but it might be a while before I get to read it. I'm hoping it will prove useful for running political games although I'd want to run them with True20 rather than D20.

I've found it at least moderately useful.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;807429What's the best rpg for some good old plotting and scheming and maybe some backstabbing?

I like the Song of Ice and Fire rpg, but I am biased because I like the books.

Amber

Lords of Olympus

Also, I don't know if I'd say "best" but certainly, Dark Albion: the Rose War will be a very good setting if you want to run a 'political' D&D campaign in the style of Game of Thrones.

Quote from: RPGPundit;808910Amber

Lords of Olympus

Also, I don't know if I'd say "best" but certainly, Dark Albion: the Rose War will be a very good setting if you want to run a 'political' D&D campaign in the style of Game of Thrones.

Song of Ice and Fire is inspired by the War of the Roses. So that makes sense. I will add them to my ever expending list of settings I am interested in.

With most systems you can guess how a character is designed: what his stats probably are, how much wealth he has, his miscellaneous "other" resources. His political standing and toughness is quantifiable. A 5th level warrior? You pretty well know what you're going to get.

With Amber and Lords of Olympus, you may guess, but you don't really know. Even if you physically fight another character they could be pulling punches and only appearing to be weaker than they actually are. And wealth and other resources could be just about anything. It takes a long while of role-playing to suss out what the other PCs or NPCs are packing.