Quote from: estar;807683Ars Magica has a excellent series of books detailing the life of a medieval society.  The four are Art & Academe, City & Guild, Lords of Men, and The Church.  The mechanics are perhaps tied too tightly to Ars Magica to port to other system. But the information is highly useful and covers many areas not found readily in other RPGs like Art & Academe.

Thanks for all the info.

Ars Magica was the predecessor of Mage the Ascension, right? What I like about Ars Magica is the gamemaster's advice. It gives tips and examples for political stories as well as for treasure hunting, exploration, investigation and action-adventure. Much more practical than the focus on themes ("Power leads to corruption.") that both old and new Mage do. It also doesn't have the scene-by-scene story-arcs, but it prefers an action-reaction interplay between the players and NPC's to form a story organically. What went wrong? If they would have sticked this kind of GM advice in any WoD book, it would improve them all a lot.

Depends partially in what you want to get out of the term, "political".


I always go back to the fact that the system you are playing had better affect the actions of the characters in the main arenas of usage.  If you are plan on having the PCs do a bunch of sessions with mainly social interactions, maybe having rules and a system governing them is the way to go.

or else, you're really just playing make-pretend, or at best, playing the wrong RPG to match the game.

If you are playing a game where the main play is "talking and making deals", that's what the system should cover.

My main online game I'm running right now is, counting all sessions, over 80 now.  It's mainly a social/political game, set in a school for magic in a huge city.  There have been 3 combats in 80-odd sessions (and one is barely a combat, just a player slashing apart a ghoulish, necromantic bunny...really).    So a combat-heavy system would be a poor match.  

There is a lot of social interaction and building of relationships, as well as use of social skills like etiquette, lore, bluffing, lying, charming, etc.  So these get a total of maybe 5-20 rolls a session.  

The largest rolls are based on detection and magic.  

So, while this is personal-level political (more social, with no real political power being used for 95% right now, though there is a lot of social class, etc), it fits some of the idea well.  But not dealing with serfs, and mass combat, or realm management.


And this is just my opinion.  If the play is fun, go nuts.

Quote from: LordVreeg;807846There is a lot of social interaction and building of relationships, as well as use of social skills like etiquette, lore, bluffing, lying, charming, etc.  So these get a total of maybe 5-20 rolls a session.  

That's what I mean. And probably a very layered setting with different organisations.

I always thought that Houses (Of Parliament) Of The Blooded would be a fun game to play. High-stakes high-style melodrama for control of the 650 Seats of Westminster? Yeah, I think that could sustain a game.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;807793Ars Magica was the predecessor of Mage the Ascension, right?

Sorta, kinda; Rein Splat Hagen was one of the designers, the first few editions were from Lion Rampant, but nowadays the official Mage and Ars timelines differ from , so there's some common history with WoD. And was published by Lion Rampant.

At one point it was kinda in the WoD timeline, but now it isn't and the timelines are completely separate (I think the Dark Ages line covers the era's wizarding, but I'm not sure when the timelines "officially" diverge).

Ars is great. More people should play it.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;807854That's what I mean. And probably a very layered setting with different organisations.

http://celtricia.pbworks.com/w/page/67725545/Collegium%20Arcana%20Play%20Notes
like with dozens of Fraternal Orders and hidden secret forbidden brotherhoods and affiliations and honorary orders?

perhaps with the politics of a huge, ancient city as a backdrop...
http://celtricia.pbworks.com/w/page/14956354/Stenron%2C%20Capital%20of%20the%20Grey%20March

with a political history with many subtle groups and movements...
http://celtricia.pbworks.com/w/page/73372199/The%20Politics%20of%20Stenron

And the intrigue of hundreds of Churches working to gain dominance...
http://celtricia.pbworks.com/w/page/68006822/Godstraat%20of%20Stenron

Indeed, this works out as the kind of game that goes on and on and on.

Per Vreeg's dictum, presumably Diplomacy is "just playing make-pretend" because we can make and break deals without 5-20 (or indeed any) dice rolls. After all, RPG stands for Rolling Pips Game ...

Quote from: Phillip;807861Per Vreeg's dictum, presumably Diplomacy is "just playing make-pretend" because we can make and break deals without 5-20 (or indeed any) dice rolls. After all, RPG stands for Rolling Pips Game ...

Well, the OP and title asked for best political RPG, not board game.  SO my 'dictum' was about Role Playing Games.

And since Diplomacy is not an RPG, it really isn't in the equation. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomacy_(game)

This sounds like the start of another roll-player vs. roleplayer tiff.

:popcorn:

Quote from: Bren;807866This sounds like the start of another roll-player vs. roleplayer tiff.

:popcorn:

Gods, I doubt it.
some rules actually enable roleplaying.  

And everyone GMs and enjoys games differently.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;807793Thanks for all the info.

Ars Magica was the predecessor of Mage the Ascension, right?

Ars Magica is an independent game that eventually wound up with White Wolf because of the people involved became part of White Wolf and developing Vampire. For a short time during Ars Magica's Third Edition it was slated to be the early history of the World of Darkness but that connection was quickly broken as Ars Magica went off on its own way with a new company.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;807793What I like about Ars Magica is the gamemaster's advice. It gives tips and examples for political stories as well as for treasure hunting, exploration, investigation and action-adventure

By and large Ars Magica adventures and supplements are good. The only odd thing compared to other RPGs is the troupe style they recommend. Players play a stable of characters, one a mage, another a companion (think leveled non-mage adventurer), and a grog (a henchman/hireling). Each session will represent a mix of characters with each player playing only one of his characters for that session. The general idea to make the campaign flow more naturally to allow the focus to be on one or two primary (mage) characters but still have something for the rest of the players to do.

Quote from: LordVreeg;807846I always go back to the fact that the system you are playing had better affect the actions of the characters in the main arenas of usage.  If you are plan on having the PCs do a bunch of sessions with mainly social interactions, maybe having rules and a system governing them is the way to go.

Except that in the case of social interaction, of which politics is a subset of, the only essential mechanics is a referee willing to roleplay, handle and track the various NPC characters. In short it amounts to effectively referencing and keeping notes. Something that all tabletop RPGs inherently do by the fact they use a human referee.

Now if the group feels that characters ought to have differing levels of social skills. Then yes the system used should have mechanics to reflect the differences that are important to the setting.

I personally find the various social mechanics to be lacking except as a general guide as to the effectiveness of a specific action. I find too many social mechanics to be too abstract and attempt to stuff to much into a single roll.

Quote from: Beagle;807669I actually do own it, I really like life-path based character creation, but I never had the opportunity to play Traveller.

If you are ever in the Knoxville, TN area just drop me a line and we'll be glad to save a seat for you.

Quote from: estar;807885Except that in the case of social interaction, of which politics is a subset of, the only essential mechanics is a referee willing to roleplay, handle and track the various NPC characters. In short it amounts to effectively referencing and keeping notes. Something that all tabletop RPGs inherently do by the fact they use a human referee.

Now if the group feels that characters ought to have differing levels of social skills. Then yes the system used should have mechanics to reflect the differences that are important to the setting.

I personally find the various social mechanics to be lacking except as a general guide as to the effectiveness of a specific action. I find too many social mechanics to be too abstract and attempt to stuff to much into a single roll.

The italized portion is purely an opinion.  I dig it, a lot of other old school players feel that way, I've played with and without it, and I get it...
But I think that your comment about the mechanics reflecting the social side is actually critical.  IN a game where that is what you are playing.

Why?
Well, for one, the of of the underlying premises of the game is to be able to play a role whose abilities are defined by the rules and the chicken scratch on our character sheets.  So if the sheet says we can cast a spell, or are amazing with a blade, well, then we are.
And in a political game, the kind we are talking about,  if we are better at reading into relationships, or a +9% in lying, or have a 13% ability in church guild lore, the mechanics should support it the same as they support any other ability our character we are playling might have.  Otherwise, that part of the game we are not playing our characters the same way as we do the rest of the game.

Secondly, what about improvement?  You know, in most games, you get more HP and more spells and better at picking pockets and open hand slap fights...how does the game reflect being more charming?  Being more imposing?  
Sure, GM fiat can be used in a pinch, but if the mechanic for this whole side of the game is fiat...not much of a system.

But...many games weave in and out of the sociopolitical.  And for those, it may be nice to have some skills, but not as critical.

Here is the basics for how we run them.
http://celtricia.pbworks.com/w/page/61603393/Declare%2C%20Roleplay%2C%20Roll%2C%20Recover

Quote from: LordVreeg;807902The italized portion is purely an opinion.  I dig it, a lot of other old school players feel that way, I've played with and without it, and I get it...
But I think that your comment about the mechanics reflecting the social side is actually critical.  IN a game where that is what you are playing.

Quote from: LordVreeg;807902Why?
Well, for one, the of of the underlying premises of the game is to be able to play a role whose abilities are defined by the rules and the chicken scratch on our character sheets.  So if the sheet says we can cast a spell, or are amazing with a blade, well, then we are.

My thoughts are that the rules are a tool for adjudication. A lot of what goes into a campaign focused on politics are in essences notes. A lot of notes. Now a game can have aides to generate those notes, random tables, etc. But aides are not rules. They are there to help generate detail and content for a campaign.

And the content for a political campaign is in my opinion where most people flounder when they want to run one.  

But once that content is generated then the campaign is in part about exploration of the relationships between NPCs, and the PCs exploiting those relationships to their own ends. It is only when a player has his character attempt a specific action that rules are needed to gauge how well that action was performed.

Where I think political campaigns, and for that matter any campaign focused social interaction flounder a lot is that a single social roll becomes way too important. It as if a party's combat with 20 orcs is resolved by a single die roll.

Yeah there are RPGs that do that but they are not really that popular compared to ones that break combat down to beats, rounds or seconds. Now due to the diversity of human interaction a formal system of social combat is often unsatisfying. And a situation where the character walks into court rolls a natural 20 and the Duke is now his best friend is also undesirable in my opinion.

The way to handle it through roleplaying, with the players and referee acting if they are there as the characters. And when something is said or done where failure/success have consquences or the results uncertain then the rules (skills, attributes, etc) are brought into play to adjudicate the rules.


I guess the difference between my approach in yours, is that I don't have players declare anything. I focus on getting them to think and act as their characters. Or at the least get them to focus as if they are there at the immediate setting of the encounter (many people don't want to act).

Then when I spot a point where a roll is needed I will call for one. Also at my table the player can interject that he wants to roll. Which corresponds to what you describe as declaration.

Quote from: LordVreeg;807902And in a political game, the kind we are talking about,  if we are better at reading into relationships, or a +9% in lying, or have a 13% ability in church guild lore, the mechanics should support it the same as they support any other ability our character we are playling might have.  Otherwise, that part of the game we are not playing our characters the same way as we do the rest of the game.

Or you handle it as a pen & paper virtual reality and track it through good notes. What this doesn't handle are characters naturally better or worse at diplomacy, lying, carousing, doing research. That you need rules like skills for. In some ways this is similar to the old school idea of player skill when figuring out traps, etc. However because human interaction is so basic to people being people it not as obscure or knowledge depending as giving the referee a plausible solution to disarming a poison needle trap.

Of course there are obscure lore about a specific setting that a player will not likely know. In which case it is up to the referee to properly brief the players if his character would logically have access to such information.

Quote from: LordVreeg;807902Secondly, what about improvement?  You know, in most games, you get more HP and more spells and better at picking pockets and open hand slap fights...how does the game reflect being more charming?  Being more imposing?

I handle it as a tally of friends, allies, patrons, enemies, rivals, etc. Pretty much how it works in real life. The downside of my techniques require that notes be kept. If it not remembered it doesn't exist.

The same with lore, it is kept a ledger of notes that the player can refer too.



 

Quote from: LordVreeg;807902Sure, GM fiat can be used in a pinch, but if the mechanic for this whole side of the game is fiat...not much of a system.

It not much in the way of mechanics. But if you as the referee are aware of the range of human interaction and personalities then there is a system. Not just one expressed in dice rolls and procedures.

Again what I am saying is not devoid of dice rolls or mechanics. Specific tasks need adjudication and it helps to have rules for them even if it is a general stat like charisma.

Quote from: estar;807876Ars Magica is an independent game that eventually wound up with White Wolf because of the people involved became part of White Wolf and developing Vampire. For a short time during Ars Magica's Third Edition it was slated to be the early history of the World of Darkness but that connection was quickly broken as Ars Magica went off on its own way with a new company.

Got my hands now on a 5th edition pdf and it reminds me a lot about WoD rpg's, but there are also elements that are very unlike the WoD. No story-arc writing, no endless talk about the themes and more focus to the world outside of the mage society.