So, with many years of hindsight now, I wanted to know what game you guys think was the best D20 RPG ever made?
For the sake of this thread, let's not count D&D 3.5 (or Pathfinder).
RPGPundit
Mutants and Masterminds.
I'll go with Star Wars Saga Edition.
For convention play, I'll go with the Microlite line of RPGs and supplements.
d20 Traveller
If the OSR can be counted, because they would not exist without the d20 OGL, then I would say Labyrinth Lord.
Technically, my favorite D20 system is True 20... but.. that kind of skirts the rules. That would be followed by D20 Spycraft. Again, skirting the rules.
My favorite D20 Game is the Original D20 Wheel of Time. It does the magic system justice.
My favorite D20 Setting is Midnight.
I'll go with Fantasy Craft.
(but Mutants and Masterminds was a close call)
So many ways to go with "best". I'm a bit stumped, actually.
For favorite, I think Weird Wars. But we only played it once.
I'll go with Call of Cthulhu d20 myself. Some damn fine writing in the book, some interesting changes to d20 to fit with the genre, and I actually used it, where I didn't use a lot of other d20 books that ended up in my shelves, holding up dust.
Mutants and Masterminds 3e for what goes the furthest into making it its own thing rather than just being another d20 game.
FantasyCraft for the best Fantasy D20 ruleset.
Star Wars Saga Edition for... well I just put it up at the top with the other two.
Those are the three I consider the "Best" d20 games. (and coincidentally, the only 3 I ever get excited to run/play)
A tie between M&M2e and Star Wars Saga Edition. I'd just about kill for a generic variant of SWSE that addressed some of that game's balance issues...
KoOS
Mutants and Masterminds 2e
Star Wars Saga
I cant think of any other d20 system that did it as well as those two. M&M2e more so.
EDIT: I would also have to add The Wheel of Time d20 book to my list. It was fairly well done, especially the "magic" system.
For a d20 game, my choice would be Slaine d20. I would choose Star Wars Saga Edition, as it is technically a d20 game but only because it is owned by WotC. Otherwise it would have been OGL.
In terms of OGL games, I would vote for Mutants and Masterminds, Blue Rose and A Game of Thrones.
Looking above, nearly every response is an OGL game, not a d20 one. I guess that says something about the quality of d20 games :)
Quote from: Skywalker;671699For a d20 game, my choice would be Slaine d20. I would choose Star Wars Saga Edition, as it is technically a d20 game but only because it is owned by WotC. Otherwise it would have been OGL.
In terms of OGL games, I would vote for Mutants and Masterminds, Blue Rose and A Game of Thrones.
Looking above, nearly every response is an OGL game, not a d20 one. I guess that says something about the quality of d20 games :)
You are going to have to do an overview of what you consider a d20 game, because all the ones listed are very d20.
Spycraft.
Quote from: Emperor Norton;671703You are going to have to do an overview of what you consider a d20 game, because all the ones listed are very d20.
I think to qualify for the d20 license your game had to reference the D&D Players Guide. So technically their are no d20 complete games except D&D itself.
As for the best OGL game, I think Mongoose Conan is at least worth a mention.
Munchkin d20.
OGL Conan is actually a great game.
Quote from: Emperor Norton;671703You are going to have to do an overview of what you consider a d20 game, because all the ones listed are very d20.
It uses the D20 licence not the OGL. Its clear in each case, though the "substance" does overlap considerably. Not at least because WotC gave favourable treatment to themselves and certain other 3PP that breached their own D20 licence :)
FWIW Mutants and Masterminds is OGL, FantasyCraft is OGL, and Star Wars Saga Edition is technically d20, but only because of the favourable treatment noted above. It wouldn't have been possible under the d20 licence otherwise.
I do think that the question was posited in a colloquial manner, not a legal manner. Only lawyers need to concern themselves about which license it falls under. When someone says "d20 game" I, and I think most people, care whether it plays like d20, not whether it fits into a specific license.
M&M and FantasyCraft are d20, whether they fit the license is irrelevant to me, they use the d20 system and everyone knows it.
I never encountere a D20 game that wasn't done better by another system
Star Wars d20 < Star Wars D6
Mutants & Masterminds < Marvel Superheroes/DC Heroes
D&D 3/3.5 < AD&D
Cthulhu D20 < Call of Cthulhu
Etc
That said, I.'d say Call of Cthulhu D20 was the 'best' of a mediocre system.
Quote from: Emperor Norton;671732I do think that the question was posited in a colloquial manner, not a legal manner.
That may well be true. I can't speak for the OP.
The d20 licence was more restrictive than the OGL, so it did have an impact on the design of the game itself in most instances, not just from a legal perspective. However, OGL licence games span everything from something that would almost be allowed under the d20 licence to things like FATE.
They all sucked because they all tried to shoehorn games that didn't necessarily fit the d20 mold into the d20 mold.
I found that D20 Star Wars (Revised) sucked less.
Quote from: Skywalker;671737However, OGL licences do span everything from something that would almost be allowed under the d20 licence to things like FATE.
Except FantasyCraft is very clearly d20, while FATE Is very clearly not.
I think when discussing d20 games people mean games that use the d20 system, not whether they fit the license. And as you said, saying best OGL game would include lots of things that aren't intended by saying "Best d20 system game"
Quote from: TristramEvans;671736Star Wars d20 < Star Wars D6
I found that Star Wars d20/Revised were both kind of crap, but I preferred Saga Edition to d6 myself.
I think now I would probably run Star Wars using something else entirely though. Maybe Savage World or FATE.
Quote from: Emperor Norton;671740I think when discussing d20 games people mean games that use the d20 system, not whether they fit the license. And as you said, saying best OGL game would include lots of things that aren't intended by saying "Best d20 system game"
As you have said. The OP may well have intended the term to mean as you have said, but I can't speak for the OP.
That is a really hard question. Could be M&M3 or Radiance or even Everstone: Blood Legacy. If I *had* to make one pick... I'll go with Radiance if just for the Shapeshifter class.
Quote from: Tetsubo;671744That is a really hard question. Could be M&M3 or Radiance or even Everstone: Blood Legacy. If I *had* to make one pick... I'll go with Radiance if just for the Shapeshifter class.
Everstone: Blood Legacy is one of the little known hits of the d20 game market IMO.
Seconding Conan d20 by Mongoose.
Oh yeah, Slaine was a bunch of fun as well.
Quote from: Skywalker;671747Everstone: Blood Legacy is one of the little known hits of the d20 game market IMO.
Yep. Folks should pick that up, just for the ideas alone.
Quote from: Zachary The First;671751Yep. Folks should pick that up, just for the ideas alone.
And the fact that is less than US$10 on Amazon ;)
Quote from: TristramEvans;671750Oh yeah, Slaine was a bunch of fun as well.
I think its the best attempt to preserve the majority of the d20 system as seen in the D&D PHB and yet make the game its own and true to the setting. There are other good RPGs using the same base but most cleave further away for best effect.
Quote from: Skywalker;671752And the fact that is less than US$10 on Amazon ;)
$6.95, looks like (http://www.amazon.com/Everstone-Blood-Legacy-Core-Role-Playing/dp/1894938518). That's cool. :)
That's kind of like asking which lobotomy I prefer. Does DCC count?
Quote from: MoonHunter;671652Technically, my favorite D20 system is True 20... but.. that kind of skirts the rules. That would be followed by D20 Spycraft. Again, skirting the rules.
I am fond of True 20, but /best/ that is actually D20 for me would however be Star Wars D20, followed by D20 Cthulhu. I am also fond of M&M1E
QAGS looks fun, but I have never played it.
The only D20 game I'd ever play would be DC Adventures / Mutants & Masterminds, so... I guess that would be my answer.
Hell, even including 3.5 & PF, I'd still pick Star Wars Saga Edition.
call of cthulhu d20 or everstone: the blood legacy.
Quote from: Skywalker;671752And the fact that is less than US$10 on Amazon ;)
it's less than *one* dollar over at toad and troll.
Quote from: ICFTI;671799it's less than *one* dollar over at toad and troll.
Yep. Well worth every penny. Every 100 pennies.
Quote from: Skywalker;671800Yep. Well worth every penny. Every 100 pennies.
i bought seven copies - one for every player in my group. :)
While talking about Everstone: Blood Legacy, I would want to point out that there was a free PDF Companion for the game which you used to be able to download from their website. (Happily, the pdf clearly says you can get it for free on the second page.) I've got a copy, but you can apparently also get it from the Everstone yahoo group.
Quote from: ICFTI;671801i bought seven copies - one for every player in my group. :)
Whoa. I didn't say it was worth 700 pennies. :)
Quote from: RPGPundit;671635So, with many years of hindsight now, I wanted to know what game you guys think was the best D20 RPG ever made?
For the sake of this thread, let's not count D&D 3.5 (or Pathfinder).
RPGPundit
Okay.
Then D&D 3.0.
Nice.
On that line, I will throw in OSRIC.
Starship Troopers was really good.
Quote from: Endless Flight;671638I'll go with Star Wars Saga Edition.
I'll agree with this.
Conan d20, because of the magic system, the maneuvers and the excellent supplements they released. It is a pity its system was overlooked, but I still hope someone will bring it back via the OGL.
Mongoose actually had some very good d20 iterations. It's just that their editing was sloppy, so everyone made fun of them.
I'm a bit surprised to see all the love for Star Wars. I tried several flavors of it as d20 and never really felt it was a good fit.
I enjoyed d20 Cthulu and a number of other d20 products. I also liked the OA material. Some fell flat though (d20 modern never really did it for me and wasn't that into d20 Ravenloft).
Quote from: mcbobbo;671926I'm a bit surprised to see all the love for Star Wars. I tried several flavors of it as d20 and never really felt it was a good fit.
I have played and gmed starwars revised, and star wars saga system.
Both seemed fine to me, with saga being slightly better. Maybe.
But my prefered system for starwars is HERO.
Quote from: mcbobbo;671926I'm a bit surprised to see all the love for Star Wars. I tried several flavors of it as d20 and never really felt it was a good fit.
The first version and revised were really shitty in my opinion, but Saga was good. It took the good parts of D20 Modern and grafted it into Star Wars. Limited number of base classes with talent and feat trees is one of the best decisions in d20 in my opinion.
I actually liked star wars d20 over saga. they were not that different in the final analysis I suppose, but something about saga never felt quite right to me. I wuld happily play either though (I think though I still miss the old westend version).
Quote from: danbuter;671913Mongoose actually had some very good d20 iterations. It's just that their editing was sloppy, so everyone made fun of them.
Yes, but with their short-lived
Conan 2nd edition they finally did it right.
Quote from: mcbobbo;671926I'm a bit surprised to see all the love for Star Wars. I tried several flavors of it as d20 and never really felt it was a good fit.
I feel the same way. The d20 system just does not seem to be geared well towards modern or futuristic skills and firearms. I thought that
d20 Traveller did really well with that, but that was a confusing combat system to read through - easier to play it, but it only made sense when you played it.
I liked what was done with Babylon 5 (Second Edition).
Spycraft 1st Ed and M&M 1st Ed are good but the later editions of those two games have far too much crunch.
Quote from: Frey;671970Yes, but with their short-lived Conan 2nd edition they finally did it right.
There was also the "Atlantean edition," which I own. It was a properly edited version of the first edition rulebook, colour and all (which was dropped from the second edition book).
Quote from: Bobloblah;672007There was also the "Atlantean edition," which I own. It was a properly edited version of the first edition rulebook, colour and all (which was dropped from the second edition book).
I actually prefer Atlantean Ed over Second Ed and not just because of the production values.
What are the other reasons?
Conan D20 Atlantean Edition
Call of Cthulhu D20
Everquest D20
I picked these because I think they did a great job of altering the system to meet the desired setting and genre.
Star Wars Saga
True 20
Fantasy Craft
Dungeon Crawl Classics.
Quote from: Bobloblah;672012What are the other reasons?
Its been a while TBH. I know I didn't like the Temptress class very much. They also added more options and complexity in some areas that I didn't think was necessarily a good thing.
I must say I find all the love for FantasyCraft quite unfathomable.
YMMV I suppose.
Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;672029I must say I find all the love for FantasyCraft quite unfathomable.
YMMV I suppose.
I like Fantasycraft holistically; it just looks like a neat system. But when you break it down, seems like a ton of overhead to basically do dungeon crawls. While I'm happy I have the game, I'll probably never play it.
Wheel of Time d20
The Original Darwin's World
Stargate SG-1
Quote from: J Arcane;672023Dungeon Crawl Classics.
If we're counting DCC as a D20 game, then I'll switch my answer to that as well.
Quote from: Brad;672036I like Fantasycraft holistically; it just looks like a neat system. But when you break it down, seems like a ton of overhead to basically do dungeon crawls. While I'm happy I have the game, I'll probably never play it.
I feel the exact same way about Spycraft. I really want to love it. I really like it. but when I sit down with it and start bashing. It just feels so tedious, and overwhelming.
Quote from: Ronin;672098I feel the exact same way about Spycraft. I really want to love it. I really like it. but when I sit down with it and start bashing. It just feels so tedious, and overwhelming.
Which version? The original Spycraft is pretty decent, but 2.0 made things overly complex.
Quote from: Brad;672103Which version? The original Spycraft is pretty decent, but 2.0 made things overly complex.
Definitely speaking of 2.0. I also made the mistake of getting the pocket edition, stupid tiny ass text hurts aging mans eyes. Shakes my fist at the book, "Damn you Spycraft!":)
I do like the game dont get the wrong idea. Its just too much.
Quote from: Novastar;671792Hell, even including 3.5 & PF, I'd still pick Star Wars Saga Edition.
Am I the only one who kind of liked d20 for everything except D&D?
Quote from: Piestrio;672161Am I the only one who kind of liked d20 for everything except D&D?
I'm not a fan of PF or 3.x, but there are a few other D20 games I think are pretty good, so I guess that I'm kind of in the same boat.
Oh, I forgot: the Pathfinder Beginner Box. A complete ruleset with many of d20 good things and none of the bad.
I never played a lot of different d20, but much fun was hard with Darwins World
Quote from: Piestrio;672161Am I the only one who kind of liked d20 for everything except D&D?
I'd consider playing in just about any D20 game except for D&D.
Quote from: Piestrio;672161Am I the only one who kind of liked d20 for everything except D&D?
Well, seeing how I think the opposite, I doubt it.
I don't even need to discount 3.5 and PF because neither would be anywhere near my list.
I'll also ignore all games that use the OGL to recreate older, pre-d20/3.x versions of D&D (Swords & Wizardry, LotFP, Blood & Treasure).
But it is still a difficult question, depending on how far you draw the circle around "proper" d20 games.
Close to the d20 core:
Chroniques OubliéesFrench reimagination of 3.x with much less crunch, merging skills, feats, and spells all into "feat paths". Level up, learn two feats from your class paths, done.
The game that I wish 3e had been from the start.
Closer to AD&D:
Kard és MágiaMelan's stripped-down sword & sorcery variant, marrying 3e to a more B/X-like play feeling.
Stripped down to the barest rules:
Microlite 20Any less, and it would be TWERPS...
While the above three games can be used with WotC's "The Sunless Citadel" with minimal adaption dK would need a lot of DM prep:
Barely recognisable as d20:
dK SystemFrench class-less, feat-based attempt at a universal tool kit like GURPS.
Those four would make my list.
And it's ironic that the game that I played the longest before d20 even appeared could
today be mistaken for a d20-inspired variant:
Midgard.
Quote from: Piestrio;672161Am I the only one who kind of liked d20 for everything except D&D?
No, I guess you are not.
Seeing that my favorite d20 iterations all strayed (more or less) far from the 3.x core I am with you.
I
soo wanted to like 3e when it appeared (all through the hype that started with the Big Announcement where WotC gave away those cool t-shirts) but I was just annoyed, and the more I looked into the PHB, even appaled. But WotC gave us the OGL and that led to some very interesting games that more than made up the "damage" (for me).
I heard very good things about A Game of Thrones d20, and Conan d20 (specially the Atlantean and 2nd editions). The only thing that puts me off is that they're too complex.
Conan D20 is definitely complex, and simplicity would not be a reason to move to it over D&D 3.x, but having said that, it's a great game, and captures a lot of the flavour of Howard's work. As you've gathered, avoid the 1st edition book.
Etherscope
Arcana Evolved
Iron Heroes Revised
Star Wars Saga edition was a very good game and I'm kind of inclined towards it as a choice. It had some balance issues, at least partially related to the source material. But it was a very well thought out game and did a lot to capture the feel of the source material.
Mutants and Masterminds
Stargate d20
D20 Modern
Arcana Evolved
Quote from: Frey;672180Oh, I forgot: the Pathfinder Beginner Box. A complete ruleset with many of d20 good things and none of the bad.
You're one of those guys who always got dinged on exams for failure to read the instructions, aren't yah.
Quote from: Votan;672507Star Wars Saga edition was a very good game and I'm kind of inclined towards it as a choice. It had some balance issues, at least partially related to the source material. But it was a very well thought out game and did a lot to capture the feel of the source material.
The only huge balance issue I found was the skill attacks vs. defense problem. It led to force powers being crazy powerful at low level, and pretty meh at high because of how skill growth was handled.
D20 Call of Cthulhu for me. It's the only d20 game I still enjoy running. I think it did a good job of bringing Lovecraftian horror into gaming the late twentieth century. If you don't believe me go back and reread The Call of Cthulhu, the Horror at Redhook, and the Shadow Over Innsmouth. They read like d20 CoC adventures play.
My vote for the worst goes to Dragon Lords of Melnibone. It's only redeeming feature was getting to see the art from some of the other editions of the game.
Quote from: Piestrio;672161Am I the only one who kind of liked d20 for everything except D&D?
I actually rather like Pathfinder, but that's more the attitude of the creative team, than the mechanics or RAW.
Quote from: Emperor Norton;672537The only huge balance issue I found was the skill attacks vs. defense problem. It led to force powers being crazy powerful at low level, and pretty meh at high because of how skill growth was handled.
I found this to be true too. I would like to see a Fantasy Craft version of Star Wars... it would be interesting. I know someone did a conversion somewhere on Crafty.
My picks would be...
1. FantasyCraft
2. Arcana Evolved
3. Call of Cuthulu
I was thinking about it. Ive really had a lot of fun with Microlite 20, and have never ran a fantasy game with that. :hmm:
Quote from: Emperor Norton;672537The only huge balance issue I found was the skill attacks vs. defense problem. It led to force powers being crazy powerful at low level, and pretty meh at high because of how skill growth was handled.
I had always thought that was deliberate, to make the way that high level Jedi fight with lightsabers and not powers supported by the mechanics.
Skill focus(Use the Force) being available at level one was simply bad game design, though.
Quote from: Votan;672686I had always thought that was deliberate, to make the way that high level Jedi fight with lightsabers and not powers supported by the mechanics.
Skill focus(Use the Force) being available at level one was simply bad game design, though.
I tried to do a bunch of house rules to turn all attack into skills, dropping BAB, changing how skill focus worked to provide a gradual bonus (+2 at first, up to +5 at like, level 14ish) and then adjusting defenses in line with skills.
I never got to playtest it though.
And I can see the thing with lightsabers at high levels, but I think that would have been better served by giving force users more out of the box options to stop other force powers than making powers almost not worth it at high level.
For those of you who enjoyed d20 versions of Star Wars, how did you deal with the Disable Device skill in games? I could never get over the immersion disconnect of having that skill in a technology based game, it fits in D&D but just looks accidently left in for d20 Modern or d20 Star Wars.
Quote from: Silverlion;671758I am fond of True 20, but /best/ that is actually D20 for me would however be Star Wars D20, followed by D20 Cthulhu. I am also fond of M&M1E
I prefer Saga for Star Wars. But I have often thought that the D20 version would be a solid system to use for a generic sci-fi setting. I have also thought you could run a cool fantasy game using the Alien Anthology as the racial index. So many awesome races in that book.
Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;672029I must say I find all the love for FantasyCraft quite unfathomable.
YMMV I suppose.
I'm with you on that one.
Quote from: jeff37923;672708For those of you who enjoyed d20 versions of Star Wars, how did you deal with the Disable Device skill in games? I could never get over the immersion disconnect of having that skill in a technology based game, it fits in D&D but just looks accidently left in for d20 Modern or d20 Star Wars.
Do they also have a mechanical skill, like Security? I don't recall.
Typically this isn't a big issue, though. I just imagine it is the same skill set, but with a basic knowledge of computers and electronics added on. It's the 'mess with it' skill, sometimes labeled 'jury rigging'. To me, anyway.
Quote from: Tetsubo;672718I'm with you on that one.
I feel the same about GURPS.
Quote from: Tetsubo;672718I'm with you on that one.
Didn't you spend quite a bit of time on your RPG video reviews saying
Fantasy Craft was a good game?
Quote from: Endless Flight;672732Didn't you spend quite a bit of time on your RPG video reviews saying Fantasy Craft was a good game?
It has good points. But after a great of thought I have concluded it is overly complex. I think it ends up being even more complex than Pathfinder. My current tastes run between Pathfinder and Radiance. Where I fall on that spectrum depends on which day of the week it is. But I can see how Fantasy Craft is attractive to some folks. Someone else did a review and noticed things I did not pick up on with my first reading of the game. They saw things more deeply than I did. I wish I could remember where I read that.
Quote from: JeremyR;672728I feel the same about GURPS.
GURPS has some of the best supplements available. Just some stellar material. Things I have read and reread time and again. Marvelous work. The rules? Meh.
Quote from: Tetsubo;672758It has good points. But after a great of thought I have concluded it is overly complex. I think it ends up being even more complex than Pathfinder. My current tastes run between Pathfinder and Radiance. Where I fall on that spectrum depends on which day of the week it is. But I can see how Fantasy Craft is attractive to some folks. Someone else did a review and noticed things I did not pick up on with my first reading of the game. They saw things more deeply than I did. I wish I could remember where I read that.
That's fair enough. I can see how a second or third review of a book would change a mind. I also think Fantasy Craft is too complicated, especially concerning NPC creation, but I enjoy the presentation.
CoC D20 was the best, I think. SW D20 Revised comes in second.
Quote from: Tetsubo;672758It has good points. But after a great of thought I have concluded it is overly complex. I think it ends up being even more complex than Pathfinder. My current tastes run between Pathfinder and Radiance. Where I fall on that spectrum depends on which day of the week it is. But I can see how Fantasy Craft is attractive to some folks. Someone else did a review and noticed things I did not pick up on with my first reading of the game. They saw things more deeply than I did. I wish I could remember where I read that.
I bought Fantasy Craft based partly on your review!! LOLOL
Let me back this up a bit - and Admins if this is the wrong place for this discussion, I'm fine if it gets moved.
Fantasy Craft *looks* complex. I felt the exact same way as you did - but the reality of it is that it's as complex as a GM needs it to be for ones game. Most of the system is completely modular. It addresses some glaring issues in Pathfinder/3.x that have always mechanically bugged the shit out of me. Namely - Magic classes being ridiculously powerful while non-magic classes are hamstrung at almost every opportunity. Pathfinder is awesome in its descriptions for combat - and yes, in many cases Fighters/Barbs/Rogues can do well in their respective "thing" - but those classes are horribly inflexible mechanically.
I'm also not a big fan of "Vancian magic" as it works in 3.x/PF.
That said - Fantasy Craft lets you make characters that are mechanically balanced without sacrificing the essence of those classes. Mages are still mega-powerful. But rather than nerf Mages down to non-caster level capacity - Fantasy Craft does the opposite. They allow non-casters to excel to cinematic levels of badassery without necessarily diminishing anyone else.
3.x/PF whatever you might think about it - has some serious flaws in implementing Feats. Feats are not balanced against one another, and the Iterative attack system is hideously complex (especially if you dual-wield/single/sword-n-board interchangeably), and it drives you into hyperspecialization of one schtick - Fantasy Craft does away with all of that. No more unnecessary and arbitrary Feat-choke points. There are trees - but none larger than three feats deep. You get more skills, more abilities, more options than you can shake a stick at.
You almost cannot make a bad character. All the feats are gorgeous, and meaty. They dispense with all the sacred cows that don't need to be there - and if that's your taste - you can herd them right back in as you see fit.
I always recommend this to people approaching Fantasy Craft: Try to forget *EVERYTHING* you know about 3.x/PF. That is the hardest part of reading Fantasy Craft. Little things you *think* you know, and tend to skip over - you'll find later on are different. I made that same mistake. Read it cover to cover twice.
Once you run it - it's FABULOUSLY easy and gets easier. You just have to get used to the different subsystems, which are not complicated unless you choose to make them complex for your own personal worlds.
It's quite a brilliant game. IMO - this is what 4e should have been. A deconstruction and rebalancing of d20 without all the baggage.
Fantasy Craft. Very slick, does so many things I wish pathfinder (and D&D 3.5) did.
I also have a great fondness for Spycraft 2.0 and ran some great games with it, but admit its gear system in an obstacle.
Quote from: Tetsubo;672758It has good points. But after a great of thought I have concluded it is overly complex. I think it ends up being even more complex than Pathfinder.
Playing both regularly, I don't think I can agree with that. I am making more PF characters than I should, and if you use even one supplement, chargen is a maze of archetypes, feats and spells in PF. Even if you don't use any splats, gameplay seems more straightforward to me in FC; lacking Attacks of Opportunity, iterative attacks, and not having the create NPCs in the same level of detail as PCs, and the sheer simplicity of FC spells by comparison, makes the claim very questionable in my eyes.
Special characters....action dice that explode...balanced power acquisition, lots of combat manuevers.
Seems like Fantasy Craft is basically Savage Worlds if it was d20 based and 10x as intricate. Loving one and hating the other just got more complicated :)
I am torn between Spycraft and Wheel of Time (first versions both).
I quite like CoC d20 -- it's much better than I thought it would be -- but I don't see any reason to ever play it instead of the BRP version.
The PF Beginners' Box set is quite nice. If only PF remained at that level of complexity overall, I could envision actually running it.
Quote from: Akrasia;676314I quite like CoC d20 -- it's much better than I thought it would be -- but I don't see any reason to ever play it instead of the BRP version.
From actual experience I could say that they play very differently; and not necessarily in the way most people who haven't played CoC D20 would tend to assume.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Akrasia;676314The PF Beginners' Box set is quite nice. If only PF remained at that level of complexity overall, I could envision actually running it.
3PP are making adventures for PFBB, but due to Paizo's stance, they are not allowed to use the branding of PFBB in any way. Thus, unless you know what to look for, it seems you will not find them.
Kinda odd to me...
So? Name names!
Well a few post down you can see the head honchos reasoning for Paizo's stance (Vic Wertz):
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2n09i?Modules-in-the-style-of-the-Beginners-Box
Here are a few:
http://www.rpgnow.com/index.php?keywords=basic+paths&filters=0_0_44235_0_0&x=0&y=0&author=&artist=&pfrom=&pto=
More like a list of all the D20 games other than D&D 3.5 or Pathfinder.
Was a best D20 game ever decided on?