Quote from: GameDaddy;222157Wow. William Gibson has a new book out that I haven't read.... Spook Country. Estimated time to acquisition, about two days.

It didn't suck.  I wouldn't call it one of his best, but it definitely didn't suck.

Quote from: pathar;222135The argument is that the fantasy elements invalidate the overall cyberpunk feel.  It's not one I agree with personally, but I regret to inform that William Gibson does.

Bruce Sterling did as well, judging by the rather harsh reference in the Hacker Crackdown.  He seemed to prefer GURPS Cyberpunk.

The argument is not so much about feel, as the fact that the underlying themes and motives of the two genres are utterly incompatible, so in order to fit them together, one or the other has to be rendered basically superficial.

Cyberpunk is not escapist, fantasy is.  Really, this is one of the underlying problems with cyberpunk as roleplaying game, in that there is conflict there, and it's why so much cyberpunk roleplay winds up getting fixated on the superficial elements like cyberware and appearance, and "looking cool".  It's treating punk as an aesthetic instead of a social movement.  Case in point, CP2020's "style over substance" mantra.

William Gibson has quite a bit of right to dislike Shadowrun.  Especially the amount of stuff they stole from his works for their games.  Down to even Street Samuria which Gibson coined in Neuromancer.

I once loaned a copy of Neuromancer to a Shadowrun GM who never really read any cyberpunk fiction.  A week later he handed it back to me saying "boy he is going to be a nobody once FASA sues his pants off for copyright infringement."  I just had to shake my head.  Finally I told him to look at the dates the two were written.

Ah well.  

By the way anybody remember the cyberpunk game "Khromosome" for the Amazing Engine from TSR?  It was quite well done as well.  Just crippled by that system.

2 things:

1) I've never played Ex Machina, but I did like the setting. The main contrast that it offers, which can be good or bad depending on your taste, is that it's a Cyberpunk game as viewed from the 2000's instead of one viewed from the 80's.

2) I've played Shadowrun minus magic and think it's about as cyberpunk as it gets. That said, it's far from my favorite system.

I've never read a William Gibson book-his writing style bores me to death so I start, get a few dozen pages in and hate it, and I like the stuff that's apparently inspired by him rather than what little I've read of his.

That said I like Shadowrun the best of the "Cyberpunk" games I've played so far, but all I've played is SR and Cyberpunk 2020. And CP sucked for me.

Quote from: Caesar Slaad;2222301) I've never played Ex Machina, but I did like the setting. The main contrast that it offers, which can be good or bad depending on your taste, is that it's a Cyberpunk game as viewed from the 2000's instead of one viewed from the 80's.

I agree. It is more ghost in the shell than "true cyberpunk".

CyberAge is a bit like that too, it's the cyberpunk with a bit less grime and a bit more slick...

Those who recommend Shadowrun should specify which edition they talk about. The leap from SR1-3 to SR4 is a big one in regards of system, technology level and general look&feel, and I know many gamers who like SR4 but despise the older editions and vice versa.

I prefer SR3, and pretty much despise SR4.

Quote from: peteramthor;222226I once loaned a copy of Neuromancer to a Shadowrun GM who never really read any cyberpunk fiction.  A week later he handed it back to me saying "boy he is going to be a nobody once FASA sues his pants off for copyright infringement."  I just had to shake my head.  Finally I told him to look at the dates the two were written.

Yeah, when I first saw Johnny Mnemonic, way back before I'd ever heard of Gibson, I described it online as a somewhat interesting but clearly flawed Shadowrun spinoff.  I was promptly schooled for my ignorance.

Quote from: Serious Paul;222258I've never read a William Gibson book-his writing style bores me to death so I start, get a few dozen pages in and hate it, and I like the stuff that's apparently inspired by him rather than what little I've read of his.

Gibson is flashy.  You have to be willing to be dazzled by his brilliance to really get in to his work.  Which works out well for me - every time I read "The sky above the port was the color of television, tuned to a dead channel" I get goosebumps.

Quote from: pathar;222303Gibson is flashy.

Well that's a nice way of putting it. I'll stick with boring, but if he makes you happy-by all means read away. I'm betting some of the authors I like would put people here to sleep.

I cut my teeth on CP2020 and Shadowrun. I'm in the Shadowrun ain't Cyberpunk crowd, at least part of the time, though I do love the game.  

I prefer CP2020, however.  I will say this: I learned some extremely valuable lessons about munchkins from that game. Sure: you can make a dude that can one punch kill anyone with Martial arts of +10, or a dude that can pull the stunts out of Wanted with a pistol without even touching the cyber... if you get really stupid you can do both in the same character (why not: A Solo with Combat Sense of +10, Martial Arts:ninjutsu +10 and Pistols +10 and athletics +10 so he can do cool shit like jump fences... he's a badass right?).

The thing I learned however, as mind you I'm a generous sort of GM naturally who tries to avoid excessively punishing players for even gross stupidity...

... that guy is worthless against a 10 year old with an ak-47 at 300 yards.  He's no harder to hit than just about anyone else and none of his skills are any good at that range.

I had a dude go nearly full borg at creation (four limbs) who thought it made him bulletproof who went down to a single lucky shot that tore apart his cyberleg leaving him stranded in the middle of the killing ground room they were 'assaulting'.

There is a lesson there: your game can be as stupidly over the top powerful as you like as long as its equally unforgiving. It balances out well.

I prefer SR4e, though some of the things l didnt like (new adept types and mages with the celtic, wican and other crap traditions), overall the system is more streamlined. Though imho, the best way to know if you prefer 4e to 3e would be if you would prefer a wireless matrix or not with all the game implications that decision entails. Though wireless takes out a bit of the feel of SR deckers imho, wireless allows hackers to be more involved with a party, by far.

Also will climb along the bandwagon that the very best point of a modern SR edition (3e or 4e, though 4e is perfected even more) is how well the system adapts to low power campaign (lets say gangs) to high power with all the levels in between (adjustable point buy system + availability ratings for gear = great). Also how easy it would be to remove magic or different aspects of the game and really stick together as a system.

I prefer SR4e, though some of the things didnt really glue well (new adept types and mages with the celtic, wican and other crap), overall the system is more streamlined. Though imho, the best way to know if you prefer 4e to 3e would be if you would prefer a wireless matrix or not with all the game implications that decision entails. Though wireless takes out a bit of the feel of SR deckers imho, wireless allows hackers to be involved with a party, by far.

Also will climb along the bandwagon that the very best point of a modern SR edition (3e or 4e, though 4e is perfected even more) is how well the system adapts to low power campaign (lets say gangs) to high power with all the levels in between (adjustable point buy system + availability ratings for gear = great). Also how easy it would be to remove magic or different aspects of the game and really stick together as a system.

While I am running a CyberPunk 2020 campaign again (going into month 19 now), the system drives me nuts. I'm definitely looking forward to moving into a new in-house system that we wrote up that is *mostly* CP2020 compatible, but switches out resolution mechanics, damage mechanics, and several other elements of the game as well as putting a stronger focus on finding small social groups.

I think the best RPG book for anyone who wants to run / play / write a cyberpunk RPG is definitely Ex Machina - and this is coming from someone who has *never* enjoyed the Tri-Stat system.