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Which game has the most elegant and effective animal riding rules? Which one has the clunkiest and most off-putting?

Hmm, 53 views and no responses...

So I guess the real question is -

Why does no one include animal riding scenes in their games?

It was a big part of pre-modern life and there are many exciting scenes based around it in movies and books, so what gives?

I've ridden quite a bit (off the trail wilderness riding in northern Alberta) and I tend to see things as a combination of horse temperament, training quality and the rider avoiding making mistakes in certain situations (and there are many, many different situations with different mistakes).

I don't actually think I've seen any RPG system that makes me think the writer has ever been on a horse.

Then there's the question of whether or not one wants to represent what its like to be on a horse or what makes for interesting riding based action in the game.

I pretty much hate how horse chases work out when initiative is I go / you go, and all the movement happens on your turn. First noticed it with 3E D&D, but its pretty standard.

James bond Chase rules work fine with horses.

If you wanted to do it really well you would add I think 3 stats for the horse
Temprement, Stamina and Speed

Use the Speed as you do in James Bond standard ie if your Canter (cruising) speed exceeds the Gallop (top speed) then you simply escape/capture.
Stamina means if you gallop for Stamina turns your top speed reduces each round by x.
Otherwise usethe James bond system and just add Temprement as a special effect under some circumstances

Willful - if you fail a DC check the next DC check is at +5 DC
Fearful - If you try to make a stunt +5 DC
Docile - In the first round of a chase automatically reduce "success" by 1 class
Etc
Etc

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;848057Which game has the most elegant and effective animal riding rules? Which one has the clunkiest and most off-putting?

I can't think of any Rpgs that hit either extreme. Most have resided in the middle-ground, using simple Riding checks and range bands.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;848222Why does no one include animal riding scenes in their games?

It was a big part of pre-modern life and there are many exciting scenes based around it in movies and books, so what gives?

Because rules for car/carriage chases are more interesting?  Who knows. Maybe that's a rules vacuum waiting to be filled.

CoC7e and Cthulhu by Gaslight (multiple editions) have included some extensive rules for carriage chases. I don't recall them in detail but they cover a page or two of rules. More than I've typically seen for a Riding/Driving skill in any other game.

Favorite is BX D&D. None. You got on a horse and said either you rode it, or you fell off. IE: Whatever you felt fit the character and RPed it. About as elegant as it gets.

A lot of RPGs suffer from this issue, not horses per se but the idea that teh only excitement you can get is from Combat.

If you watch an action movie a lot more excitement comes from chases and other physical challenges outside of combat but most RPGs fail to have any rules for these or just relegate them to a "Climb Check", "Ride Check"

A you decide if you can ride or fall off approach would be mocked if applied to combat. You decide if you win or not.

I always hark back to JB in these kind of discussions becuase it introduced mechnaisms for getting excitement from this other than combat through the actual rules. So you have rules for covering games of chance or skill to simulate Bond playing Bacarat or Backgammon and they have rules for chases.

A lot more games need to think about this. Can you imagine Raiders without the traps, or running away from a boulder, or fleeing from angry Hovitos, or chasing a Nazi truck etc etc .

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;848057Which game has the most elegant and effective animal riding rules? Which one has the clunkiest and most off-putting?

Traveller, in general, just treats it as a skill will physical attribute modifiers added. No fuss, no muss.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;848222Hmm, 53 views and no responses...

So I guess the real question is -

Why does no one include animal riding scenes in their games?

It was a big part of pre-modern life and there are many exciting scenes based around it in movies and books, so what gives?

Because most crap players only do what they read in the rules that their class character can do. Replace the "check for traps" rule with an "animal riding" rule. You'll have players up and riding in no time in games.

RuneQuest/BRP/Legend/D100 games have a Ride/Riding skill. RuneQuest also has rules on breaking animals and training them.

Presumably, difficult jumps, forcing them through fire and so on just imposes a penalty to the roll, as would having a nervous or cantankerous beast.

It all works well, but i am not sure it represents the "best" rules.

My Little Pony The Game should have good riding rules ...

I have never considered riding rules as anything particularly noteworthy. They are like walking rules or other forms of movement. Mounted combat, yes, that requires some mechanical soluions that is more complex  than "If you sit on the back of a beast, make a Riding or Dexterity test to not have bad things happen to you or the animal whenyou ride very fast or your beast is startled" (which is all the specific riding rules I ever need).  
Sure, Jibba has a point when he talks about the excitement of chases and other non-combat scenes, but this kind of excitement is hard to translate into game mechanics. Either the specific rules for anything suffers from a significant amount of bloating, or you trust the gamemaster to handle such an occurence with a relatively small set of prefabricated tools and a contextualized application of this rather simple set of rules.
So, if you have building blocks like a Riding skill of the horseman, a handful of traits for the horse and a vague idea how complex or difficult some actions on horseback are, you are pretty much set.

Quote from: soltakss;848274My Little Pony The Game should have good riding rules ...

Are there any non-equine entities of any relevance in the My Little Pony Universe? Do ponies usually ride on others in that setting?

Quote from: Beagle;848280Are there any non-equine entities of any relevance in the My Little Pony Universe? Do ponies usually ride on others in that setting?

There were humans in the first show (80s), but they've been pretty much erased since then. The only consistent 'rider' in the current show is a baby dragon, anything else is rare.

Now let's get back to the main topic and not ask how I know these things.

I'll weigh in on GURPS. It has what I consider fairly good riding rules, but if you use all the rules, they become even more complex than GURPS combat, which I like, but many don't. There is also a good published article with even more detail on creating each horse as a character.

Elements of the main rules include stats for the horse (strength, health, DX, speed...), riding skill, horse equipment, effects of encumbrance on movement, momentum and turning radius, limits on acceleration and deceleration, effects of injuries to different body parts, effects of the height advantage of the rider relative to people on the ground, effects of relative position of figures facing different directions next to the horse, horse attacks, spooking, maintaining control, use of lances and other weapons from horseback, interaction of riding skill with other skills while mounted, veterinary skill, and probably other stuff.

So yeah, like the full GURPS Advanced tactical rules, it's a complete simulationist wargame, and does a pretty good job if that's what you want. Total overkill if you're someone who never really liked detailed combat rules.

As for chases, it has the problems of I-go, you-go movement on maps. A clever GM with some understanding of physics though can figure out that in a chase what matters is the difference in velocity, and have the map move under all the figures by the shared component (though each mover still needs a specific path if there's stationary stuff to hit/avoid).

Am I the only one who has written a game - actually two games - *around* animal riding?

Quote from: Skarg;848350I'll weigh in on GURPS. It has what I consider fairly good riding rules, but if you use all the rules, they become even more complex than GURPS combat, which I like, but many don't. There is also a good published article with even more detail on creating each horse as a character.

Elements of the main rules include stats for the horse (strength, health, DX, speed...), riding skill, horse equipment, effects of encumbrance on movement, momentum and turning radius, limits on acceleration and deceleration, effects of injuries to different body parts, effects of the height advantage of the rider relative to people on the ground, effects of relative position of figures facing different directions next to the horse, horse attacks, spooking, maintaining control, use of lances and other weapons from horseback, interaction of riding skill with other skills while mounted, veterinary skill, and probably other stuff.

So yeah, like the full GURPS Advanced tactical rules, it's a complete simulationist wargame, and does a pretty good job if that's what you want. Total overkill if you're someone who never really liked detailed combat rules.

As for chases, it has the problems of I-go, you-go movement on maps. A clever GM with some understanding of physics though can figure out that in a chase what matters is the difference in velocity, and have the map move under all the figures by the shared component (though each mover still needs a specific path if there's stationary stuff to hit/avoid).

As I noted James Bond Chase system covers this with minimum overhead, no maps and it abstracts it down to a point that remains exciting and engaging.

Quote from: flyingmice;848429Am I the only one who has written a game - actually two games - *around* animal riding?

Go on...

Quote from: jibbajibba;848262A lot of RPGs suffer from this issue, not horses per se but the idea that teh only excitement you can get is from Combat.

If you watch an action movie a lot more excitement comes from chases and other physical challenges outside of combat but most RPGs fail to have any rules for these or just relegate them to a "Climb Check", "Ride Check"

A you decide if you can ride or fall off approach would be mocked if applied to combat. You decide if you win or not.

Why not? If all you are doing is riding from point A to point B then does it really need a whole array of skill checks just to figure that out?

As for saying if my character knows riding or not. How does that effect anything else other than they know riding or not? Assuming I dont know and want to try. That could be as simple as stat checks or just RPing out trying to get the hang of it.

As for best chase rules. I liked the ones from the Indiana Jones RPG from TSR. That covered the full array from on foot, to horseback, to cars.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;848433Go on...

Well, I don't know if anyone else ever did one. I'm kinda used to writing the first or only RPG in some weird-ass sub-sub-sub-genre, so it wouldn't surprise me. I just would never have guessed this would be one.  :P

-clash

Quote from: Beagle;848280Do ponies usually ride on others in that setting?

Of course, otherwise how would they get more little ponies?

Quote from: flyingmice;848429Am I the only one who has written a game - actually two games - *around* animal riding?

Gurps Horseclans?

Quote from: flyingmice;848443Well, I don't know if anyone else ever did one. I'm kinda used to writing the first or only RPG in some weird-ass sub-sub-sub-genre, so it wouldn't surprise me. I just would never have guessed this would be one.  :P

-clash

I think what Shipyard meant was: "Please tell us about the weird-ass riding base RPG's you created, we are quite interested in your work."

Quote from: Beagle;848501I think what Shipyard meant was: "Please tell us about the weird-ass riding base RPG's you created, we are quite interested in your work."

Yes, that's what I meant.

What would be the best James Bond RPG book(s) to find the most elaborate version of their chase rules?

I'd also be really interested to know of any other systems that make a serious attempt to provide detailed rules for riding (combat, travel, and chases).

I forget if there's anything in Aftermath, Phoenix Command, or Danger International.

Unless I'm forgetting something, I've never heard of a game actually designed around animal riding.

Quote from: Omega;848499Gurps Horseclans?

Ah! That may be! I don't have that particular supplement, but it's a good possibility! :D

Quote from: Beagle;848501I think what Shipyard meant was: "Please tell us about the weird-ass riding base RPG's you created, we are quite interested in your work."

Oh! Sorry! That would be In Harm's Way: Dragons! (http://www.flyingmice.com/dragons.html), an older game based on riding dragons in an alternate Napoleonic Wars era; and Volant - Kingdoms or Air and Stone (http://www.flyingmice.com/Volant.html), a more recent game, is based to a somewhat lesser extent - it is entirely possible to play Volant without using giant bird riding, and I am currently running such a game - on riding giant birds and bats. Both games have extensive rule subsets for dragon/bird riding and combat, acrobatics, and the like.

-clash

There has to be something in Dragonlance, right? I know nothing about it, but it should be all about dragon riding?

Not a rider, but from what I gather from talking to horse people, Temperament needs to be included, and horses should be divided into breeds. (Runequest lets you do that by tweaking the stats and Pendragon did that.) Most games ignore both.

Another aspect of horse flesh I use in my Honor+Intrigue campaign is Quality. (I've seen that used in various rules over the years, e.g. Pendragon also Black Vulmea's Flashing Blades site.)

Their are five levels of Quality: Poor, Fair, Good, Excellent, and Superb.
 
Horse Quality affects speed, lifeblood (Hit Points), and cost. Quality can also be used as a proxy for stamina. Horses without sufficient rest, food, or water decrease in quality. Below Poor the horse dies.

Quote from: jibbajibba;848243James bond Chase rules work fine with horses.

If you wanted to do it really well you would add I think 3 stats for the horse
Temprement, Stamina and Speed

Use the Speed as you do in James Bond standard ie if your Canter (cruising) speed exceeds the Gallop (top speed) then you simply escape/capture.
Stamina means if you gallop for Stamina turns your top speed reduces each round by x.
Otherwise usethe James bond system and just add Temprement as a special effect under some circumstances

Willful - if you fail a DC check the next DC check is at +5 DC
Fearful - If you try to make a stunt +5 DC
Docile - In the first round of a chase automatically reduce "success" by 1 class
Etc
Etc

This sounds like a good start and I'm pleased to see that you included temperament as a stat.

Quote from: soltakss;848274RuneQuest/BRP/Legend/D100 It all works well, but i am not sure it represents the "best" rules.

The rules are simple, but I wouldn't describe them as a good simulation of horses or riding. This is why I didn't immediately mention Runequest. It seems bare bones serviceable rather than "best" in class. Whereas the

Quote from: flyingmice;848429Am I the only one who has written a game - actually two games - *around* animal riding?

I was going to say, "Probably. I figure you're use weird that way. ;)". But I'm going to say that riding flying beasts, but not horses, camels, and such doesn't meet the criteria.

WEG's Star Wars D6 included animal riding. It's no more elaborate than the piloting or other skills, but it can use the same chase rules and modifiers designed for speeder bikes and space ships and animals include speeds, orneriness, and such so it is one step better than Runequest/BRP in that sense.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;848057Which game has the most elegant and effective animal riding rules? Which one has the clunkiest and most off-putting?

Here's how I handle it in ZWEIHÄNDER (http://grimandperilous.com) ->

Local Movement
Increase local movement by 3 yards if on a pony, 6 yards if on a riding horse and 9 yards if on a war horse.

Entering Combat On An Animal
If a pony, make a (Challenging -10) Handle Animal Test. If a riding horse, make a (Standard +/-0%) Handle Animal Test. If a war horse, make a (Routine +10%) Handle Animal Test. Upon success, you can take advantage of the following benefits:

1: Melee and Ranged Attacks
Whenever attacking with melee weapons atop, add +10 Base Chance. When attacking with ranged weapons atop, subtract -10 Base Chance.

2: Better Protection
Add +1 Damage Threshold, due to height of the animal.

FINAL NOTE: Miscellaneous Usage
Some Talents allow you to Dodge - using your Ride Skill - in the saddle. Other Talents allow you to ride faster, while others allow you to mitigate the penalties for ranged attacks.

Easy peasy!

Quote from: Bren;848607I was going to say, "Probably. I figure you're use weird that way. ". But I'm going to say that riding flying beasts, but not horses, camels, and such doesn't meet the criteria.

Ah! He didn't say that - or if he did I missed it!

I do have a plan on my back burner to do some sort of cavalry game, which would use the rules for Volant Bird riding adapted to 2D. :D

I use my trusty handbook series of farming from 1920's as a basis what horses do and do not. There are surprisingly good information about farming for players who really want to get nuts and bolts for their homesteads.

You need 4 breeds for most of human history but in 20th century you get many many more. Horses have temperament which affects how they behave in different situations. The quality of care is also important for overall ability of horse to perform at all. There are all factors that affect "attributes".

However, the real problem from modeling standpoint is the work load and endurance. These two issues are mostly ignored by players and game designers as none too exciting for humans as well (only Twilight:2000 comes to mind as reasonable system).

Thus having rules for them would be real first step for having same for horses. It is also a step I do not believe game designers are ready to do due small interest given to long-term endurance and fatigue rules in general.

Quote from: flyingmice;848429Am I the only one who has written a game - actually two games - *around* animal riding?

Quote from: Omega;848499Gurps Horseclans?

I wouldn't say so. I have GURPS Horseclans, though it's in storage, since I don't find it useful for much other than playing in that campaign setting. Now, you could certainly play a GURPS Horseclans game and have it centered around horse riding, but I don't remember GURPS Horseclans really adding a whole lot in the way of rules around riding, though I might be forgetting a little bit. It was one of the first GURPS worldbooks and so is for 1st edition, and I doubt it adds anything in the way of horse rules that isn't done as well or better in 3rd and 4th edition Basic, let alone the Roleplayer article with the super-detailed horse rules.

A GURPS Wild West, or even many fantasy/medieval or Renaissance GURPS campaigns could be fairly horse-oriented if most of the characters and many of the plots were so oriented.

But none of that makes it, I'd say, a "game *around* animal riding" *per se* (at least, not the way it sounded to me when you wrote that), unless the GM chooses to emphasize that.

Add me to the list of people quite curious about what your animal-riding-centric games are like.

Oh, and I just went and grabbed the James Bond basic book and the Q manual. Interesting chase rules, though I'm pretty disappointed in the low grain of the vehicle stats, where Performance Modifier only ranges from -1 to +2, with most cars being 0 or +1, and even then some values seem questionable to me. I'd have to tweak the stats to give more difference between car types, and would probably want to add more types of stats. I get though that that might undermine the James Bond feel, where it's more important to describe how stylishly or amusingly you do stuff, and to have Bond be able to use any vehicle to embarrass people due to his raw uberskills.

(Games that allow and focus on dragon-riding (...) could also qualify, sort of. ;-) )

Quote from: flyingmice;848615Ah! He didn't say that - or if he did I missed it!

He didn't. Most of use assumed it. I said it.

QuoteI do have a plan on my back burner to do some sort of cavalry game, which would use the rules for Volant Bird riding adapted to 2D. :D

It sounds like there is a niche for a better riding simulation. What I would like would be something that would be easy to adapt or include in other systems. Of course I would like that for systems I use e.g. Call of Cthuhu/Runequest/BRP, WEG D6, and Honor+Intrigue/BoL and that included factors like breed, individual temperament (presumably with some similarity based on breed and lineage), quality of mount, type of care. Including rules for breaking/training and breeding (a generational game?) might be interesting. Things to simulate would include speed, stamina, carrying capacity, and robustness (by that I mean the difference between a steppe pony that can survive on almost any fodder and a more finicky Arabian or Destrier that needs grain to keep it fed.

Quote from: Bren;848650He didn't. Most of use assumed it. I said it.


It sounds like there is a niche for a better riding simulation. What I would like would be something that would be easy to adapt or include in other systems. Of course I would like that for systems I use e.g. Call of Cthuhu/Runequest/BRP, WEG D6, and Honor+Intrigue/BoL and that included factors like breed, individual temperament (presumably with some similarity based on breed and lineage), quality of mount, type of care. Including rules for breaking/training and breeding (a generational game?) might be interesting. Things to simulate would include speed, stamina, carrying capacity, and robustness (by that I mean the difference between a steppe pony that can survive on almost any fodder and a more finicky Arabian or Destrier that needs grain to keep it fed.

I *always* try to set these things up to be easily portable. The birds in Volant are set up with carrying capacity - women are favored as riders because they are lighter than men - which could be easily adapted. Breeds and temperment are integral to both games and could be handled the same way. Diet was indicated - some birds can be fed on carrion, while others need nectar or specific foods - but there was no mechanic for that. Rules for breeding could be interesting - fixing traits, breeding out and in, culling - it would be generational, but could be an interesting sub-game.

I'm fond of the Rolemaster Standard System approach where your riding skill acts as a cap on your mounted combat skill which acts as a cap on weapon skills while mounted.  There's a specific mounted combat skill for each weapon and a specific riding skill for each type of mount.  Then you get your horse's movement rate and it's activity for the round but you have to decide how much of your activity you want to use while riding which sets the difficulty of any riding skill rolls you might want to make.  So a skilled rider essentially gets free movement and can use all their skill to attack but an unskilled rider can't.

There were at least two articles in Dragon on horses and riding

I still have somewhere a d20 D&D booklet about mounts called Fur and Feather circa 2002. This was a really well thought out book with lots of info on types of horses, and riding, as well as non-standard mounts like familliars even.

Quote from: Bren;848650He didn't. Most of use assumed it. I said it.

I intended to leave it open for any animal riding system. Flying beasts are fine.

Quote from: flyingmice;848659I *always* try to set these things up to be easily portable. The birds in Volant are set up with carrying capacity - women are favored as riders because they are lighter than men - which could be easily adapted. Breeds and temperment are integral to both games and could be handled the same way. Diet was indicated - some birds can be fed on carrion, while others need nectar or specific foods - but there was no mechanic for that. Rules for breeding could be interesting - fixing traits, breeding out and in, culling - it would be generational, but could be an interesting sub-game.

I'd be interested.

Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;848608Here's how I handle it in ZWEIHÄNDER (http://grimandperilous.com) ->

Local Movement
Increase local movement by 3 yards if on a pony, 6 yards if on a riding horse and 9 yards if on a war horse.

Entering Combat On An Animal
If a pony, make a (Challenging -10) Handle Animal Test. If a riding horse, make a (Standard +/-0%) Handle Animal Test. If a war horse, make a (Routine +10%) Handle Animal Test. Upon success, you can take advantage of the following benefits:

1: Melee and Ranged Attacks
Whenever attacking with melee weapons atop, add +10 Base Chance. When attacking with ranged weapons atop, subtract -10 Base Chance.

2: Better Protection
Add +1 Damage Threshold, due to height of the animal.

FINAL NOTE: Miscellaneous Usage
Some Talents allow you to Dodge - using your Ride Skill - in the saddle. Other Talents allow you to ride faster, while others allow you to mitigate the penalties for ranged attacks.

Easy peasy!

The trouble with these sorts of rules is that a horse chase basically becomes the protagonists moving their horse marker round on a map. They make a skill roll each round and move the horse marker its mvnt speed perhaps with a slight variant if you allow skill to actually effect movement and in play turns this is about as exciting as breaking out a snakes and ladders mini game.

Either you have a great large scale map/board and you build an entire sub-game round horse chases or you abstract it and try to add excitement through the rules.

The JB system is built to replicate car chases at 90 mph through European mountain ranges or speed boat chases through the Everglades they realized early on that tracking movement each round precisely and mapping all  the terrain was impossible and if you did even try to do that your exciting car chase that should take 10 minutes to resolve becomes a game of car wars that takes 4 hours to resolve (car wars by the way is great but it is not an "exciting" game experience).

You need to do us all a favor and write up a portable version of 007-esque horse chases.

Basically you'd have players bid riding skill penalties in exchange for initiative.  The range bands should probably be in horse lengths due to the subtle horse racing reference.

Chases are run in hours until the range closes to less than 50 lengths / 100paces at which point they drop to rounds.  It is assumed that a round is about 10 seconds.

The general actions would be:
Run - speed 4 lengths, -40 to hit, no turning, 2 Fatigue per turn
Gallop - speed 3 lengths, -30 to hit, wide turns only, 1 Fatigue per turn
Trot - speed 2 length, -20 to hit, tight turn, 2 Fatigue per hour
Walk - speed 1 length, -10 to hit, 1 Fatigue per hour
Stop - Opponents Automatically close or open as appropriate

When Fatigue > 1/2 Endurance, speed -1 (so you have to run to get speed 3)
When Fatigue > 3/4 Endurance, speed -2 (so you have to run to get speed 2)
This means you tire out faster when you are tired.

Humans running all out count as trotting.  Other human movement counts as walking.

Pony: Maximum Speed Gallop, Endurance 16
Race Horse: Maximum Speed Run +1, Endurance 12
Riding Horse: Maximum Speed Run, Endurance 14
War Horse: Maximum Speed Gallop, Endurance 12

Turning is a part of movement that breaks line of sight unless the opponent.

Pursuers are lost if two tight turns or three wide turns can be accomplished while out of line of sight or if they run out of Endurance.

You know what?  I'm going to add this to Dragon Shadowed Lands or whatever I'm calling it this week.

Quote from: Bren;848726You need to do us all a favor and write up a portable version of 007-esque horse chases.

I will write something up this weekend and post it here.
Will do it for d20 with a 5e spin. I will use DC class as the main parameter but do stunts with Disadvantage for variation (that will make sense when I write it up). Include 12 animal temperaments and a sample of 6 standards for measure - Mule; Courser; Arab; Destrider; Quarter Horse; Andalusian

I will also add some other stuff for contrast - Centaur; Unicorn; Wargs; wolves; lions

Quote from: jibbajibba;848758I will write something up this weekend and post it here.
Will do it for d20 with a 5e spin. I will use DC class as the main parameter but do stunts with Disadvantage for variation (that will make sense when I write it up). Include 12 animal temperaments and a sample of 6 standards for measure - Mule; Courser; Arab; Destrider; Quarter Horse; Andalusian

I will also add some other stuff for contrast - Centaur; Unicorn; Wargs; wolves; lions

Thank you.

Quote from: David Johansen;848744The general actions would be:
Run - speed 4 lengths, -40 to hit, no turning, 2 Fatigue per turn
Gallop - speed 3 lengths, -30 to hit, wide turns only, 1 Fatigue per turn
Trot - speed 2 length, -20 to hit, tight turn, 2 Fatigue per hour
Walk - speed 1 length, -10 to hit, 1 Fatigue per hour
Stop - Opponents Automatically close or open as appropriate

Humans running all out count as trotting.  Other human movement counts as walking.

Just a couple things. I can't remember where I read it, but apparently four legged beasties are just as fast on turns as they are on straights, so at a full run (you left out canter, so your gallop should be canter and your run gallop) they can still make wide turns at full speed.

And since humans are two leggers, we can't make wide turns at full speed (though it isn't that much slower), so limiting top speed to trot is off because of the ability to make tight turns, which we don't have. Besides, there are still four paces, walk, jog, run, sprint. All you'd need to do is adjust length for the various paces depending on how the animal moves. So for example ostriches are faster than humans, but they have a longer stride length. Kangaroos are also faster, but have a different type of stride, etc.

The same basic idea can apply to flyers as well. For example dragonflies top out at 100 body length/second forward and three back,

And I think

Quote from: apparition13;848792Just a couple things. I can't remember where I read it, but apparently four legged beasties are just as fast on turns as they are on straights, so at a full run (you left out canter, so your gallop should be canter and your run gallop) they can still make wide turns at full speed.

And since humans are two leggers, we can't make wide turns at full speed (though it isn't that much slower), so limiting top speed to trot is off because of the ability to make tight turns, which we don't have. Besides, there are still four paces, walk, jog, run, sprint. All you'd need to do is adjust length for the various paces depending on how the animal moves. So for example ostriches are faster than humans, but they have a longer stride length. Kangaroos are also faster, but have a different type of stride, etc.

The same basic idea can apply to flyers as well. For example dragonflies top out at 100 body length/second forward and three back,

And I think

Seems to me, humans can turn while sprinting too - it's "just" that each animal has a different comfortable turning radius at each speed, and exceeding it without slowing down is hard and is a matter of skill to avoid stumbling. No?

Quote from: jibbajibba;848758I will write something up this weekend and post it here.
Will do it for d20 with a 5e spin. I will use DC class as the main parameter but do stunts with Disadvantage for variation (that will make sense when I write it up). Include 12 animal temperaments and a sample of 6 standards for measure - Mule; Courser; Arab; Destrider; Quarter Horse; Andalusian

I will also add some other stuff for contrast - Centaur; Unicorn; Wargs; wolves; lions

That's a lovely offer! W00t!

Quote from: jibbajibba;848721The trouble with these sorts of rules is that a horse chase basically becomes the protagonists moving their horse marker round on a map. They make a skill roll each round and move the horse marker its mvnt speed perhaps with a slight variant if you allow skill to actually effect movement and in play turns this is about as exciting as breaking out a snakes and ladders mini game.

Either you have a great large scale map/board and you build an entire sub-game round horse chases or you abstract it and try to add excitement through the rules.

The JB system is built to replicate car chases at 90 mph through European mountain ranges or speed boat chases through the Everglades they realized early on that tracking movement each round precisely and mapping all  the terrain was impossible and if you did even try to do that your exciting car chase that should take 10 minutes to resolve becomes a game of car wars that takes 4 hours to resolve (car wars by the way is great but it is not an "exciting" game experience).

I see your point, although it seems to me that:

1) James Bond includes city maps too, so there is a map, it's just large-scale since speeds are high. If I were running a modern chase, I'd use an actual map.

2) Speed with a complex system depends a lot on how well the GM has mastered the rules, how many players there are, and how long the GM allows people to think about what they do when it's their turn. It can speed things up to ask players to be ready with their action when their turn comes around, and have a time limit (I base it on their PC's Combat Sense score when I do this). However yes, even more speed is possible if your system has no map and light rules and you're focusing on speed.

3) I'm just as excited by detailed serious combat systems where my choice of action determines what happens in logical ways, as I am by fast combat systems where the result is a vague fudge and a roll of the dice.

BTW I'm surprised at how simulationist and reasonable the James Bond system seems now. Last time I looked at it, I noticed things like the "how stylishly can you describe what you do" section and wrote it off. It's nicely level-less and skill/attribute-based too, so could be an easy conversion to GURPS once conversion factors were figured out.

Quote from: jibbajibba;848758I will write something up this weekend and post it here.

Cool :cool: and thanks!

I took a look through my list of random tables and stuff and I realized I already had some additional horse related stuff for quality and breed that I grabbed from Black Vulmea's web site and adapted to Honor+Intrigue as well as a table for Horse Survival and Travel Events. The first part will be my blog post (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=32940) this Saturday.