TheRPGSite

As the Topic says :

Lets hear what games you have a beef against and Why.

But lets not start agrueing the WHY and how people word how they have a beef with a system or game OK.

You have to Answer OK before you can replay. :D

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OK

My Biggest beef is against systems that use levels and skills connected to those Levels.
My other beef is against d20 in general due to the LOCAL Players I have meet in the area. Not really the system itself but against the people That play must always play only that system and how they play there games.

Why ?

Why. Not sure, but might have something to do with playing RIFTS and D&D3e and the general players I meet and how they gamed in general. Mini-maxing skills, classes, and what not. I want Character driven characters not just numbers and stats. If I just made any sense, cool. if not, oh well.



NEXT

You can say that I have a beef with Vampire, but it's really just that I find thenotion of playing a vampire to be distasteful.

The only game I ever had a beef against was Chart...errr...Rolemaster, only for a)  it was the only way to play Middle Earth for a while without constructing your own game, b)  a bunch of guys I gamed with loved and and wanted to play it constantly, while a few others of us hated it, and didn't want to, but we got dragged along anyway.

After a while, there was no beef, cause we stopped playing it.

Most Palladium stuff I dislike, for being an AD&D rip off with a poorly designed level system.  And RIFTS...ugh.  I enjoy a lot of the concepts, but loathe the actual execution.  That said, some of the most fun gaming I ever had was TMNT in junior high - gonzo power gaming to the max!  Fun times.  Ninja gerbils, psionic chickens, and my favorite was the ninja elephant - an elephant sneaks up and stabs you in the back before you see him.  AN ELEPHANT!  How much fun is that?

Savage Worlds. The game itself is not bad per se - it's pretty much average, with a heavy emphasis on the cinematic. But the goddamn fans adamantly recommend it for everything and get hostile if you point out truths/flaws about the game.

Seanchai

Weapons of the Gods.  It's a fun game, I like the world, but the book itself is a nightmare to navigate.  The rules for medicine and magic are far too integrated into the surrounding text and are difficult to take in.

Quote from: HackmastergeneralNinja gerbils, psionic chickens, and my favorite was the ninja elephant - an elephant sneaks up and stabs you in the back before you see him.  AN ELEPHANT!  How much fun is that?

This is why TMNT transcends normal games and becomes something amazing. Ninja Elephants are just... brilliant!

-clash

I have a big beef with WFRP.  Great system and setting for what it is...but much like Seanchai (who I totally disagree with, by the way ;)), the fans drive me NUTS by being so frigging arrogant (I think hardcore WFRP fans are some of the most arrogant out there when it comes to pimping their system) and recommending it for everything fantasy and constantly bashing every other fantasy system out there (especially D&D, which is much more versatile.  You can play Warhammeresque adventures with D&D, but, it's near impossible to play D&Desque adventures with WFRP).

Other than that, I have things I like or dislike about most systems...but those are just the opposite for others...so (I try to) live and let live.

(oh...I had a (bizzare personal)beef with Basic Fantasy...but it wasn't worth the effort ;))

I have a beef with Vampire, in that the proposed activity (a certain flavor of collaborative story-making) isn't quite the same as what you actually get if you follow the written instructions on how to play.  It's not a huge beef, since I can adjust the advice and the rules both to my satisfaction, but it's there.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenI have a beef with Vampire, in that the proposed activity (a certain flavor of collaborative story-making) isn't quite the same as what you actually get if you follow the written instructions on how to play.  It's not a huge beef, since I can adjust the advice and the rules both to my satisfaction, but it's there.

Do you mean Fluff text not matching the mechanics of play ?
If so, I can agree. Vampire's fictions and fluff say you can do this, this and that. Then when you use the mechanics of the system, if you try to match the fluff your out of blood or frenzing out of hunger, among other things.

I have a beef with because .

No, seriously, Vampire is about as iffy as I get.

Quote from: LacrioxusDo you mean Fluff text not matching the mechanics of play ?
If so, I can agree. Vampire's fictions and fluff say you can do this, this and that. Then when you use the mechanics of the system, if you try to match the fluff your out of blood or frenzing out of hunger, among other things.

The world fluff, yes.  The "player fluff", as well, where it babbles about the magnificent stories you'll be a part of - and gives you a sense of how you would be part of those, which it then shitcans with the GM advice.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenThe world fluff, yes.  The "player fluff", as well, where it babbles about the magnificent stories you'll be a part of - and gives you a sense of how you would be part of those, which it then shitcans with the GM advice.

Wow, really?  How so?

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!Wow, really?  How so?

To sum up: Many of the player notes on play talk about making decisions.  Then, the GM section then has a significant number of techniques that effectively talk about cleverly making those choices unimportant, because the plot continues regardless.

It's gotten much, much less prevalent in the current edition, mind you, so I should probably bury the grudge at this point.  And I'm not going to pretend that it's unique to Vampire - there were a few D&D modules, back in the day, that shared similar asshattery.

Most theory people use a lot of neologisms when talking about all this, which annoy the fuck out of regular readers.  But, basically, when the people on either side of the table are led to expect notably different kinds of play, that pisses me off.

Quote from: grubmanI have a big beef with WFRP.  Great system and setting for what it is...but much like Seanchai (who I totally disagree with, by the way ;)), the fans drive me NUTS by being so frigging arrogant (I think hardcore WFRP fans are some of the most arrogant out there when it comes to pimping their system) and recommending it for everything fantasy and constantly bashing every other fantasy system out there (especially D&D, which is much more versatile.  You can play Warhammeresque adventures with D&D, but, it's near impossible to play D&Desque adventures with WFRP).

Other than that, I have things I like or dislike about most systems...but those are just the opposite for others...so (I try to) live and let live.

Yeah, I love WFRP, play it regularly, etc. but I've noticed a tremendously high volume of swinedom in WFRP's fandom. Its the fault of this group of dudes who basically hijacked what was meant to be a really rough-and-mean punk-dwarf fighting-in-the-dungeon D&D-but-deadlier game, and because of the success of the Enemy Within campaign tried to turn WFRP into a pure "investigative" campaign where you're not actually supposed to EVER fight monsters, go into dungeons, or get treasure.  And they tied that in with a very big sense of intellectual superiority to D&D. Its very unfortunate.

The good news, however, and the reason you shouldn't give up on the game, is that pretty much everyone who has gotten into WFRP from the new edition (plus some of the people who have now come back to it) do not fit this description: "Enemy Within" means nothing to them, and they see the awesome potential of WFRP for exactly what it is, without thinking it has to be a "sophisticated storytelling" game, or that its the panacea for all one's fantasy gaming needs.

RPGPundit

Quote from: grubmanYou can play Warhammeresque adventures with D&D, but, it's near impossible to play D&Desque adventures with WFRP).

Why would you want to emulate DnD?

I have a beef against D20 because it's always consistently so much better than everything else, and it constantly makes stupid people complain. Seriously, D20! You''e making everyone look bad by comparison!



:haw:

I have a beef with most every Storyteller game ever written, with the notable exception of Adventure!, for a variety of reasons.  The one Levi mentions is a big factor, as are the horrid amounts of dice rolling and totaling for every action.  Then there's the terrible organization of those books, the jokes that are indexes, the contempt the game authors project for the players of the games, the inconsistent mechanics...  just about every aspect of those games pisses me off in some fashion or another.

Quote from: grubmanYou can play Warhammeresque adventures with D&D, but, it’s near impossible to play D&Desque adventures with WFRP).

 This is why I love WFRP.

Regards,
David R

I have a beef against R Talsorian's Mekton Z and Z+ because while it plays fantastically, it's a pain in the ass to prep for.

I have a beef against D&D 3.5 due to prep as well.

I have a beef against Mage series from WW because I can't find anyone who wants to play the damned thing. Same goes for various indie games I want to try (DITV, Burning Wheel, although if I luck out I may be getting a BW group soon.)

CB

Quote from: StumpydaveWhy would you want to emulate DnD?

Because I like DnD. I don't think that was the point, however.

I've been thinking, and despite my distaste with the WoD stuff, I'm not sure I would go so far as to call it a "beef".... more a dismissal and subsequent lack of interest. Aside from that, I can't think of any game I really dislike. I have games I prefer, but I'd give anything a try really. On the flip side I haven't played many of the newer games out there so there could be a "beef" out there waiting to develop :D  .

I have a beef with Talislanta 2e, because I love the background, love the mechanics in principle, but the actual organization of the books is much worse than it oughtta be, given the simplicity of the game. Important bits of chargen (like background skills) are sequestered in separate chapters, and obvious questions are never addressed. It's not a totally broken game but it's a sprawling mess, especially if you try to use the stuff from the Cyclopedias.

So, why not use 3e or later? Well, the system got heavier as they went along, plus I'm not so crazy about the improvisational magic system in 4e. If I play the game, I'll just muddle through, I reckon, but I might have a look at the 3e handbook if I can find a really cheap copy.

I take "having a beef" to mean "terminally spoils my fun because I can't houserule it away, hence will probably never play it."

In that sense, I'm having a beef with those 90s games which, while clearly cool, require me to buy a dozen supplements in order to follow a metaplot I don't care for. 7th Sea, L5R...

Quote from: Pierce InverarityIn that sense, I'm having a beef with those 90s games which, while clearly cool, require me to buy a dozen supplements in order to follow a metaplot I don't care for. 7th Sea, L5R...

Oh, hell yeah.  I agree with Pierce, today.

Quick, call me names.  This shouldn't be allowed to linger; I'll get all confused.

Personally, I'm less likely to want to play/run a game in a fantasy setting.  I played many of those games for years, and I am seeking something different in my roleplaying experiences.

Quote from: teckno72Personally, I'm less likely to want to play/run a game in a fantasy setting.  I played many of those games for years, and I am seeking something different in my roleplaying experiences.

That's great...as long as you aren't one of those people who look down thier noses at everyone else and think that because you have "outgrown" fantasy you are a better role player than those of us who never do. ;)

I have a beef with Jeremiah.  A great property with a pretty strong fan following in the gaming community.  Pulled off really badly.  The OGL modifications weren't consistent nor balanced, the editing was... well it appeared there was no editing and little online support from the companies (Morrigan and Mongoose) that put it out.  

Another beef is the new World of Darkness rulebook.  I picked it up for four bucks at a shop unloading them.  There was so much fiction, a fiction description for every skill for gods sake.  I thought about going through with a black marker and going over all the fiction with it.  Probably would end up with about 25 pages of actual game system.

Shadowrun - I have a beef with the overall organization and presentation of the rules in 4E. It makes my head hurt trying to figure out how to run certain things like hacking.

D&D - because at high levels it really gets to be a pain in the neck to adequately design and run NPCs.

D20 Modern - I'm sick of my players charging the guy with the gun, knowing they have enough hit points to soak up the damage.

GURPS - because there are damage multipliers and armor penetrating multipliers for every damage roll.

HERO - because you need to count up each die roll two different ways when figuring damage.

Traveller - because I can't pick the skills I want.

Any Unisystem game - because no two games are exactly the same rules-wise.

*Note, I play and love a lot of the above games, but I still have a few beefs with them.

I have a beef with Heroquest and Unknown Armies because they are basically good games in their ideas, but they screw it up by mixing game mechanics up with playstyle advice and game designer notes. It's like if want to use an extension cord to plug something in and find it all tangled up, by the time you finish untangling it you may as well have moved the appliance over to the socket, it would have been less effort. I don't put my salt on your chocolate pudding, don't put your game designer's notes in my rules!

I have a beef with Unknown Armies because they spend all this time giving us a lecture on how killing and violence are wrong, man, what matters is who you are and what you do, then they give us a a dozen personality types and a dozen example skills and 87 different types of guns and ammo. But violence and killing are bad, man, they're bad. Make up your mind, dickhead!

:rant:

I have a beef with Studio 2 Publishing in general and how they handle Battletech in particular. When Studio 2 Publishing got the rights for Battletech, they reprinted a lot of the earlier books under the aegis of FanPro. One of these reprints was the first Technical Readout ever done by FASA, had a lot of artwork in it by Loose and David Deitrick in it. Now, when you compare the reprint to the original, you find that all of the David Deitrick artwork in the reprint has been poorly copied and has a small disclaimer stating that the artwork in the reprint is "based upon" the original David Deitrick artwork.

My opinion is that this is a shoddy attempt to avoid paying possible royalties to the original artist. It feels underhanded from a publishing standpoint.

It may be an irrational thing, but it has caused me to have no desire to play a Studio 2 Publishing game.

Quote from: Kaiu KeiichiI have a beef against R Talsorian's Mekton Z and Z+ because while it plays fantastically, it's a pain in the ass to prep for.

I have a beef against D&D 3.5 due to prep as well.

I have a beef against Mage series from WW because I can't find anyone who wants to play the damned thing. Same goes for various indie games I want to try (DITV, Burning Wheel, although if I luck out I may be getting a BW group soon.)

CB

Prep-time will turn me off from a system too FAST. Even If I love the system. If I as the GM need to spend more than 5 or 10 minutes on an NPC, I will just fake it and give the NPC whatever I need them to have at the moment to make Play more fun.
That way no stats, Players can not know what to expect or how to kill it.

Quote from: Pierce InverarityI take "having a beef" to mean "terminally spoils my fun because I can't houserule it away, hence will probably never play it."

In that sense, I'm having a beef with those 90s games which, while clearly cool, require me to buy a dozen supplements in order to follow a metaplot I don't care for. 7th Sea, L5R...

I agree. But at the same time I enjoyed buying those books just to read them. Even IF I never was going to use the new metaplot add-ons.

Quote from: teckno72Personally, I'm less likely to want to play/run a game in a fantasy setting.  I played many of those games for years, and I am seeking something different in my roleplaying experiences.

Only "fantasy setting" that could ever catch my attention for more than 2 game sessons was Dark*Sun. I liked the Low Magic setting. Everyone was a Wild Talent for Psionic powers. D*S Gladiators were just awesome in a fight (auto profient in all weapons, just Specialized with weapons instead).

 

Quote from: GoOrange>snip<
D&D - because at high levels it really gets to be a pain in the neck to adequately design and run NPCs.

D20 Modern - I'm sick of my players charging the guy with the gun, knowing they have enough hit points to soak up the damage.
>snip<
*Note, I play and love a lot of the above games, but I still have a few beefs with them.

For D&D/D20Modern I have some advice.
Hunt down the AD&D2e GM Screens. They include Hit Location Tables and Citical Hit tables.
The Hit Location Table, If you score more than like 8 or 9 damage to say the Torso, They are DEAD or Dieing. No matter how much HP they have. It is easy to sever limbs this way too to disarm foes on the fly. It is a GREAT addition to and D&D game AD&D2e or D&D3e+ or d20Modern or whathave you.

Vampire... Im with Rotwang on this one... the whole though of playing one... no thanks
Palladium... the system sucks, and KS is an idiot
D&D... though I was running it, I discovered I dont like High fantasy, and I think its because you end up having these all powerfull characters that are too focused (but Ill still play... highly focused, powerful characters can be fun to play)
RollMaster ... the charts.... not the charts!
Any Space Opera game... not of interest to me

Shadowrun 4th. In the beginning I was eager to get ahold of a more streamlined and faster version of my beloved SR, but what I got wasn't any faster (with the very exceptions of Matrix and vehicles, which are rule cores we had "out-sourced" to NPCs anyway). Even worse, they have replaced many things I have loved as pools or complete soaking of small damage, and kept many thnings I found unnerving (different accounts for cyber- and bioware, deltaware, evasion and soaking as different rolls and so on).
No matter at which edition of SR I look, the strong ideas appeal to me, but the mistakes in the execution break my heart.
There must be a reason that i started a cyberpunk/fantasy homebrew...

Quote from: NYTFLYRD&D... though I was running it, I discovered I dont like High fantasy, and I think its because you end up having these all powerfull characters that are too focused (but Ill still play... highly focused, powerful characters can be fun to play)

I hear yah. That is why I'm going to check out IRON HEROES since I hear it not High Fantasy.
I'd be happy to let yah know after I get my hands on it.

Quote from: GoOrangeTraveller - because I can't pick the skills I want.

Why not?  Does your die roll automatically each term?  Does Marc Miller come out of the book and give you five across the lip if you say, "This term, I want to take a level of Electr- OW!"

If that's all the beef you got, then you don't have much to grill with.  Ignore that rule if it doesn't suit you.

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!If that's all the beef you got, then you don't have much to grill with.  Ignore that rule if it doesn't suit you.

Eh. If I have to change the system to get it to do what you want, I'd say the beef is fair.

Course with me, the beef would be the opposite. I don't accept GURPS Traveller as a viable Traveller variant because the point buy nature of it doesn't give you the odd mix of characters that other Traveller iterations do. Though I could house rule it with a system that randomizes it, that doesn't really say anything about the system as-printed.

Quote from: Kaiu KeiichiI have a beef against R Talsorian's Mekton Z and Z+ because while it plays fantastically, it's a pain in the ass to prep for.CB

That's part of the reason I abandonded Mekton.  Loved the game and the genre, the paperwork and prep just about killed me.

It forced me to look at other options

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!Why not?  Does your die roll automatically each term?  Does Marc Miller come out of the book and give you five across the lip if you say, "This term, I want to take a level of Electr- OW!"

Huh?

I don't know what to make of this comment. Please tell me this is in jest and you don't actually believe that my intelligence score is so low that the thought never occurred to me to houserule something. Give me a little credit.

I didn't know our beefs were going to be graded in this thread...

    get it...grade...beef...

I crack myself up, I really do.

Quote from: GoOrangeHuh?

I don't know what to make of this comment. Please tell me this is in jest and you don't actually believe that my intelligence score is so low that the thought never occurred to me to houserule something. Give me a little credit.

Of course I'm joking, dude.  Question is, do you house-rule that away, or not?  I bet you do, and then I wonder why it's a beef at all.

Quote from: GoOrangeI didn't know our beefs were going to be graded in this thread...

    get it...grade...beef...

I crack myself up, I really do.

Yeah, that was pretty good indeed. It was lean and didn't go against the grain.  You have a rare wit, sir!   :haw:

Quote from: Caesar SlaadEh. If I have to change the system to get it to do what you want, I'd say the beef is fair.

Hmmm...okay, I'll agree.  But I'll counter that just about every game gets monkeyed with here and there, and a game like Traveller, by its very nature, invites that sort of thing.

BALL'S IN YOUR COURT, JACKASS!*



*Caveat: I do not think Slaad is the least bit a jackass, but I'm pretending to be one so we can all laugh at me.

I don´t have a beef with most of the games I diss.

Because I mostly have a beef with their adherents, which are mostly worse than the games themselves.

Add to that, that I really can´t get worked up that much on the games.

But there´s one game I loathe for it´s very existence, and would gladly  
do the time-warp ("...again!"), and kill it´s writers:

Mechwarrior 3rd edition.

It took one of the most accessible, lightweight, 100 percent compatible table-top-boardgame-rpg-crossover rulessets, and butchered it into an bloated monstrosity that nobody wants to play.
Thusly they single-handedly destroyed all BT RPGing.

Quote from: Caesar SlaadEh. If I have to change the system to get it to do what you want, I'd say the beef is fair.

Course with me, the beef would be the opposite. I don't accept GURPS Traveller as a viable Traveller variant because the point buy nature of it doesn't give you the odd mix of characters that other Traveller iterations do. Though I could house rule it with a system that randomizes it, that doesn't really say anything about the system as-printed.

I was really, really surprised that they didn't make at least some attempt at merging the Random Characters rules from 3e Basic Set with some variant of the Traveller lifepath stuff.  

Like you, I wound up never having much interest in GT, because even though I like GURPS, the setting wasn't what appealed to me in Traveller, it was the system, especially the chargen, so dumping it for straight point buy just seemed like kind of a bummer.

I'm sure if your a big Third Imperium fan, and just want to be able to make the exact character you want to explore the setting with, it's great, but that's not necessarily what I'm on about.

I have a fairly major beef with WotC-based D20 products and the way the baseline assumption is that there is no other way to roleplay and that if you don't follow their class and level structures, you are cheating.  There are certain amounts of this in many other systems, but it's made significantly worse because Wizards is the dominant player in the market.  So when they make a change, you get a tiny percentage who critique it and a vast majority who say "Oh Cool! Now I can do X or Y which I couldn't do before!" which to me is slavish behaviour, akin to ning-heads who define themselves by the brand of soda they drink.

Counterpoint is GURPS, a similarily top-controlled system but where they are constantly saying "these limitations only apply in certain settings" or "this is the standard, but depending on how you want to play it, it could be the opposite."

I know most of us are totally comfortable house-ruling, but I believe a system should be very clear on how much it is comfortable with you fucking with it.  GURPS is totally rationally locked down but says "do with this what you will".  Burning Wheel says "You must do exactly as I say." and D&D 3.5 says "you can do whatever you want!  But really you can't so don't try that until our next book comes out and gives you that prestige class and makes it legitimate".

Quote from: Caesar SlaadCourse with me, the beef would be the opposite. I don't accept GURPS Traveller as a viable Traveller variant because the point buy nature of it doesn't give you the odd mix of characters that other Traveller iterations do. Though I could house rule it with a system that randomizes it, that doesn't really say anything about the system as-printed.

 Sacrilege!!

 Blasphemer!

 You crazy Roman Amphibian!!

 My apologies - my knee just jerked.
I've been running a GURPS:TRAVELLER campaign the past three years and just had a game session for most of this past Saturday night.

- Ed C.

Serious answer to the OP.....

 OK ...

 I have a BEEF with Rolemaster.
 Worst goddamn campaign I was ever  a player in was a rolemaster game mechanics one.

 Its SUCKED.

 It sucked Plaid Drunken Elephants.

 I got talked into playing that damn campaign. We were all supposed "EVIL" characters because it was dream of one of the other players from when he was in High School to play in an Evil! campaign.

I HATED it!!!

NOT because of the cmapaign conception - that was not the main reason I hated it or Rolemaster.

 The fucking resolution of combat took FOREVER., The GM chose to enforce the fucked up mechanics of rolemaster when he felt like it.
 Now I DID look at the Rolemastr books while playting - thought those were a fucked up mess.
 You can now NEVER talk me into playing a "Rolemaster" game again.

There were NINE players in that greoup (WAY too many guys , and the wrong kind)  I am only friends with two people from that bunch - a married couple who are in my current G:T campaign.
This couple i was friends with BEFORE that game started. The couple used to get into arguments after the game sessions - because problems during play woulkd unsettle thjem. Each week we had to decide if we creally want to to go or not... (The three of us were carpooling there. - GAS prices the main reason)

 Hate Rolemaster.

 Just hate it.

Don't let it near me.

 When I say "nice" things about it on our shelf at work - I'm acting - okay ?? I'm usually mentioning it along with HERO, WFRP, RIFTS, GURPS and other game.
Who am I kidding?   We haven't had it on our shelves in months - when we did ...it didn't sell well.  Fuck it . It stinks.

- Ed C.

OK

I have a beef with Exalted.

I really like the Iliad, the Odyssey and the Aenead. I really like epic heroism with a classical feel. I wanted a game that would let me do that, with perhaps a dash of superheroics and anime for fun. At first, Exalted seemed like it would be that game.

There are two trends that made me loathe Exalted. The first is that the anime influence became stronger and stronger as the game went on, while the influences of classical history and literature grew weaker. I really liked books like Scavenger Sons, Manacle and Coin, Exalted: the Dragonblooded, and Games of Divinity. This influence seemed to drop off as first edition went along though, especially in the "Aspect" books for DBs and Cult of the Illuminated. By the time second edition came around, anime was _the_ force behind Exalted, down to one of the suggested campaign options in the corebook involving a Voltron-style team of solars who flew around in magitech cats.

And that's the second part - the "magitech". I really like the view of magic and the gods presented in Exalted until Sidereals came out. Sidereals wasn't too bad by itself, but combined with Savant and Sorceror, House of the Bull God, Outcastes, Exalted: Autochtonians and the magitech of the Mountain Folk in Exalted: the Fair Folk (which I otherwise think is one of the coolest books in the 1st ed game), I just lost my taste for the way Exalted wanted its magic to work. I play sci-fi games if I want jet fighters and laser pistols. The 2nd ed corebook seemed like it was really going to emphasise that kind of play, and it was at that point that I gave it up and haven't gone back.

Quote from: walkerpI have a fairly major beef with WotC-based D20 products and the way the baseline assumption is that there is no other way to roleplay and that if you don't follow their class and level structures, you are cheating.  

This is pretty absurd, given that in D20 there are versions of the game which don't have classes or don't have levels.

RPGPundit

Yes, but to be fair, those aren't WotC products, which is what he was complaining about. Every WotC D&D and d20 product I've seen has classes and levels, even if those classes might change from product to product.

I beef D20.

For it's flat probablility, shitty skill system and it's inability to accomplish anything with any degree of believability. I also hate it's reactive ruleset and reliance on classes and levels which allows only "wiggle-room" for player concepts.


I beef D&D for all these reasons + it's ridiculous Magic systems. Also, the abstract Hit Point damage system.


Although...I may have been spoiled by all the books WW has put out. With it's focus on story over game and bell curved dice pool system.

I've got no beef with any shit you choose to play. You! I'm talking to you, Spotty Herbert!

Quote from: LacrioxusFor D&D/D20Modern I have some advice.
Hunt down the AD&D2e GM Screens. They include Hit Location Tables and Citical Hit tables.
The Hit Location Table, If you score more than like 8 or 9 damage to say the Torso, They are DEAD or Dieing. No matter how much HP they have. It is easy to sever limbs this way too to disarm foes on the fly. It is a GREAT addition to and D&D game AD&D2e or D&D3e+ or d20Modern or whathave you.

Just use the damage threshhold optional rules. They're in the d20 modern book.

If they take more than their Con in damage, they make a Fort save DC 15 +damage over Con or die.

D20. Cause I hate the damage system. I hate the incremental improvement of class levels ("Wow, a +2 sword to go with my +1 to strength! I'll be whipping ass now! Oh, we're fighting things with more hitpoints now?").

The magic system.

How the current community of creators for D20 use every excuse they can find to add to the legion of prestige classes.


When 3.0 first dropped, I thought Prestige Classes were genius. I had played Baldur's Gate and the kits in there were pretty swank, but the actual implementation feels like the classes are just a collection of contrived excuses for a character to be a "specialist" and then players have to find the most obscure printed prestige class in an effort to make their character different.

Also, that it feels like it's the only game in town.

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!Of course I'm joking, dude.  Question is, do you house-rule that away, or not?  I bet you do, and then I wonder why it's a beef at all.

Yeah, that was pretty good indeed. It was lean and didn't go against the grain.  You have a rare wit, sir!   :haw:

Yes indeed! It's rare to see something so well done in this medium, particularly with nothing important at steak. I mean, this is just a place where we can all chew the fat together, which is marble-ous, but some take it too seriously, and make nasty, cutting remarks, which are hard to swallow. When I'm making a choice on a lean, trimmed-off, low-fat system, I want all the gristley details, with a minimum of spam.

-clash

I pretty much think lots of game systems out there are pretty damn ghey. Even the ones I like have their bad days.

For instance I love Shadowrun 3rd Edition, and although I own 4th Edition I have yet to play it, so I will keep my comments to SR3:

• I pretty much hate must of the punk elements of Cyberpunk, because they're GHEY.
• Furries were never fun for me, and if I wanted to play a good furry game I'd play TMNT. Surge is ass on a stick.
• Environmental Disasters aren't always the answer, and just because we have one every five minutes doesn't make the game cooler.
• Cyber Pirates might have seemed like a good idea, but trust me it's pretty god damned queer.
• Screw selling in depth books, that add depth to the game world. We'll sell books that can barely called books, and offer a scatter shot approach to a game that traditionally sold and stood on it's amazing depth!
• Anyone who uses the word Shadowrunner (http://community.livejournal.com/shadowrun/88320.html) to describe themselves is a complete Homo.
  
• Selling the same recycled material is always appreciated by the fans. Why rewrite or update an amazingly cool books like Lone Star and Corporate Shadowfiles when we can just reprint vast sections of therm in other books and claim it's all new stuff?

Don't even get me started on D&D. Talk about a massively crappy rules system that we enjoy playing once a week. We're getting ready to run an SR game for the first time in several months as well.

I haven't touched most other games since high school: Amber, Palladium stuff, Twilight 2000, a single misguided attempt at Vampire and Mage, Cyberpunk 2020, Underground, Shadow Conspiracy, Battletech, etc....

Now a days I just have much interest in buying new systems. I have yet to see something that really draws me in.

Quote from: flyingmiceYes indeed! It's rare to see something so well done in this medium, particularly with nothing important at steak.

"At steak"? chuckle lol rofl

Quote from: flyingmiceYes indeed! It's rare to see something so well done in this medium, particularly with nothing important at steak. I mean, this is just a place where we can all chew the fat together, which is marble-ous, but some take it too seriously, and make nasty, cutting remarks, which are hard to swallow. When I'm making a choice on a lean, trimmed-off, low-fat system, I want all the gristley details, with a minimum of spam.

-clash

Stop it, Clash.  You're really butchering the joke.

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!Stop it, Clash.  You're really butchering the joke.

Are you calling me a hack, doc? I know I have some bad tendoncies, but I think I'm as sharp as anyone in this joint. I try my best to cleave to the subject, paring things down to the bone. I'm not here to chop logic...

-clash

Doc is just jekying you around, Clash - you win by slaughter rule. I gotta hoof it to lunch..for some reason I'm craving hamburger...

Quote from: James J SkachI gotta hoof it to lunch..for some reason I'm craving hamburger...

Chicken.

AND NOW, BACK TO OUR THREAD!

You guys play rough here!  That was some painful punning the likes of which I haven't seen in some time.  I feel raw- d'oh!

Quote from: flyingmiceYes indeed! It's rare to see something so well done in this medium, particularly with nothing important at steak. I mean, this is just a place where we can all chew the fat together, which is marble-ous, but some take it too seriously, and make nasty, cutting remarks, which are hard to swallow. When I'm making a choice on a lean, trimmed-off, low-fat system, I want all the gristley details, with a minimum of spam.

-clash

I should have known my remarks would be a prime target for further ribbing, but I didn't think we would roast this topic so much, continuing to chuck even more puns into the mix. Perhaps we need to put this out to pasture and moove on. I'll shoulder the blame for starting this, but Clash and Rotwang were right there at my flank to round out things. Anyway, I don't want to stew over this topic any further.

Well done!

Quote from: GoOrangeI should have known my remarks would be a prime target for further ribbing, but I didn't think we would roast this topic so much, continuing to chuck even more puns into the mix. Perhaps we need to put this out to pasture and moove on. I'll shoulder the blame for starting this, but Clash and Rotwang were right there at my flank to round out things. Anyway, I don't want to stew over this topic any further.

Well, I'm not usually cowed by things like this, but I made a complete hash out of it compared to you, GO. I'm not loin when I say you didn't skirt around the issues, yet my puns were just chopped liver compared to yours. You got right to the marrow, with a fully fleshed out argument, yet left my sides aching. Apparently I'm rasher than you, and I didn't let my puns gel, instead of bacon them until they were done to a turn. Anyway, I concede! You are the RPGSite Lard of Punning.

-clash

Where were you guys when I tried to get a Dying Earth game off the ground, or is that pasture?

I think you're confusing the Dying Earth with Xanth here ;)

Quote from: SosthenesI think you're confusing the Dying Earth with Xanth here ;)

My thoughts exactly! :D

-clash

The only game I really have a beef with is Cyberpunk V3.

Because it is not Cyberpunk, it's Cyberpunk elements mixed with Anime and turned into a joke.

If you look at the review of people who bought this on rpgnow the majority of the reviews are bad.   People complained about it on the R. Talsorian forums and now they are gone.

Someone really needs to kick Mike Pondsmith in the nuts for what he did to Cyberpunk.   But then again he was away for awhile and in the time he totally lost touch with gamers.

Quote from: Blue DevilThe only game I really have a beef with is Cyberpunk V3.

Because it is not Cyberpunk, it's Cyberpunk elements mixed with Anime and turned into a joke.

If you look at the review of people who bought this on rpgnow the majority of the reviews are bad.   People complained about it on the R. Talsorian forums and now they are gone.

Someone really needs to kick Mike Pondsmith in the nuts for what he did to Cyberpunk.   But then again he was away for awhile and in the time he totally lost touch with gamers.

I found CP3v to be more Transhuman themed than CYBERpunk themed.
More Dark Angel (tv series) than Robocop (movies).

TRANSpunk if you wish :D