If I got this right-  Labyrinth Lord is essentially a way for publishers to legally design games based off of the B/X Moldvay-Cook OD&D rules (via the WotC OGL). OSRIC is the equivalent for AD&D 1e.

Now, is there a similar retro clone project for BECMI/Rules Cyclopedia? And if there isn't, is there one in the works?

Should Goblinoid Games be bugged about this?

Are they that different?

I thought outside of the extended levels and immortality rules and thieves, BECMI and Moldvay/Cook were thisclose.

Quote from: FASERIPAre they that different?

I thought outside of the extended levels and immortality rules and thieves, BECMI and Moldvay/Cook were thisclose.

I am not as familiar with B/X, but my impression is that they are different enough that a hypothetical BECMI/RC project would not use the Labyrinth Lord rules.

B/X characters level up to around level 10- 20. Whereas BECMI/RC characters can go up to 10-36, resulting in a rather different rate of progression.

BECMI/RC also has several other rules and higher level play options which aren't present in B/X (or at least in LL):
- mass combat (Siege/War Machine)
- Extended Stronghold/Dominion rules
- Immortality rules
- Basic cosmology
- Gameplay options such as skills and weapon mastery.. Not sure if B/X had these?
- variant rules like dueling
- new classes like paladins, avengers, druids, and mystics. I don't believe B/X had these.

Someone familiar with B/X can add more.

My bad. Despite your post, I was thinking LL was based on BECMI/RC, not Moldvay/Cook, so I figured it was more an issue of scaling things back than adding lots more stuff.

Quote from: FASERIPAre they that different?

I thought outside of the extended levels and immortality rules and thieves, BECMI and Moldvay/Cook were thisclose.

They're pretty damn close up to level 14.  There are some very minor differences in the progression rates of thief abilities (as you note), and spells for m-u's, elves, and clerics.  The thief abilities are probably the biggest difference.

However, since B/X ends at level 14, whereas BECM/RC progresses to level 36, a fair number of differences emerge later on.

Such as:

Quote from: Lancer...
- mass combat (Siege/War Machine)
- Extended Stronghold/Dominion rules
- Immortality rules
- Gameplay options such as skills and weapon mastery...

Also, there are 'attack ranks' for non-human PCs (essentially, a removal of level limits via letter-based 'attack ranks', along with other special abilities for elves, dwarves, and halflings with tonnes of experience points); 'prestige classes' (viz., fighters can become paladins, knights, or avengers at level 9; neutral clerics can become druids); the 'mystic' class (not worth keeping, IMO); and a few other things.

I think that an 'Advanced Labyrinth Lord' that followed the current LL rules up to level 14, and then added some of the above options (no need for the mystic or the immortality rules IMO), would suffice for a retro-clone RC.
:cool:

@ FASERIP
No problem.

I didn't even know anything about LL until recently and just downloaded the free rules. I have never seen B/X before, but LL is not BECMI.

I like what Goblinoid Games is doing.. Their Mutant Future looks to be inspired by TSR's Gamma World. Now they just need a BECMI version of LL.

I wished someone made a OGL equivalent for Warhammer Quest.

Quote from: AkrasiaThey're pretty damn close up to level 14.  There are some very minor differences in the progression rates of thief abilities (as you note), and spells for m-u's, elves, and clerics.  The thief abilities are probably the biggest difference.

However, since B/X ends at level 14, whereas BECM/RC progresses to level 36, a fair number of differences emerge later on.

Such as:


Also, there are 'attack ranks' for non-human PCs (essentially, a removal of level limits via letter-based 'attack ranks', along with other special abilities for elves, dwarves, and halflings with tonnes of experience points); 'prestige classes' (viz., fighters can become paladins, knights, or avengers at level 9; neutral clerics can become druids); the 'mystic' class (not worth keeping, IMO); and a few other things.

I think that an 'Advanced Labyrinth Lord' that followed the current LL rules up to level 14, and then added some of the above options (no need for the mystic or the immortality rules IMO), would suffice for a retro-clone RC.
:cool:

Thanks a bunch Akrasia for clarifying the differences! You were just the person I was thinking when I created this thread, BTW.

So is it possible that an Advanced LL that retro-clones the RC, is on the horizon?

I disagree with the removal of the mystic and Immortality rules.. Keep them in there.

Quote from: Lancer...
I disagree with the removal of the mystic and Immortality rules.. Keep them in there.

Well, the mystic is no big deal.  :karate:

But the Immortality rules were not included in the RC, and there is a big difference between the rules in the Immortals Set (by Mentzer) and the later 'Wrath of the Immortals' box set.  It would be a headache to try to sort all that out, especially given how few players would make use of those rules.  The brief suggestions in the RC (suitably translated) would probably suffice.

Quote from: DeadUematsuI wished someone made a OGL equivalent for Warhammer Quest.

I played the old Milton Bradley HeroQuest board game. This was one of the bridges to D&D for me. I loved the plastic figurines. Used them in my Mystara campaigns back in the day.

Quote from: Lancer...
So is it possible that an Advanced LL that retro-clones the RC, is on the horizon?
...

Unfortunately, I don't think so.  But you could always ask over at the LL forum.  

(However, I do know that Dan Proctor has trademarked 'Advanced Labyrinth Lord', so it's possible that it's on the cards.)

Quote from: AkrasiaWell, the mystic is no big deal.  :karate:

But the Immortality rules were not included in the RC, and there is a big difference between the rules in the Immortals Set (by Mentzer) and the later 'Wrath of the Immortals' box set.  It would be a headache to try to sort all that out, especially given how few players would make use of those rules.  The brief suggestions in the RC (suitably translated) would probably suffice.

You mean the Gold Box vs. WotI?
That's a good point because they are very different. They'd have to decide which interpretation they'd prefer to use, although I thought, from what I recall, the RC was more in line with the WotI interpretation. Although the RC didn't have rules for Immortality itself, it did have rules for PC ascension to Immortality for their chosen Sphere. That's the type of info I would love to see in a RC retro clone, IMHO.
In which case, they needn't worry about using neither the Gold Box or WotI sets.... Now that I think about it.

Quote from: LancerI played the old Milton Bradley HeroQuest board game. This was one of the bridges to D&D for me. I loved the plastic figurines. Used them in my Mystara campaigns back in the day.

I still use the orcs, goblins, mummies, zombies, necromancer and skeletons from Heroquest in my campaigns.  Of course they're all painted now, but I still use them.

Best goblins ever!

Quote from: Lancer... the RC was more in line with the WotI interpretation...

I'm pretty sure that you're right about this (in fact, I'm 99.9% sure).  However, I've owned neither the Immortals set nor the WoI.   I just can't imagine ever running a campaign that used those rules (not that I wouldn't like to...).

I'd be happy if I could finally run a Classic D&D campaign in which all the PCs made it to name level and established dominions.  

Some day, some day ... :emot-sigh:

Quote from: LancerNow, is there a similar retro clone project for BECMI...

Unfortunately I am unable to tackle any larger scale projects at the moment, and through next year probably due to other obligations. While I'm not sure what direction I'll go with "Advanced Labyrinth Lord," I wasn't planning on taking it in this direction.

However, if anyone else feels the inclination, there is a free Labyrinth Lord trademark license for indicating compatibility. So someone else could conceivably write a "companion" and within could adjust various ability progressions to fit a maximum level of 36.

Of course, this is very hard work, and somewhat thankless only because the audience is so small. But, it could be done as a 3rd party product!