If I got this right- Labyrinth Lord is essentially a way for publishers to legally design games based off of the B/X Moldvay-Cook OD&D rules (via the WotC OGL). OSRIC is the equivalent for AD&D 1e.
Now, is there a similar retro clone project for BECMI/Rules Cyclopedia? And if there isn't, is there one in the works?
Should Goblinoid Games be bugged about this?
Are they that different?
I thought outside of the extended levels and immortality rules and thieves, BECMI and Moldvay/Cook were thisclose.
Quote from: FASERIPAre they that different?
I thought outside of the extended levels and immortality rules and thieves, BECMI and Moldvay/Cook were thisclose.
I am not as familiar with B/X, but my impression is that they are different enough that a hypothetical BECMI/RC project would not use the Labyrinth Lord rules.
B/X characters level up to around level 10- 20. Whereas BECMI/RC characters can go up to 10-36, resulting in a rather different rate of progression.
BECMI/RC also has several other rules and higher level play options which aren't present in B/X (or at least in LL):
- mass combat (Siege/War Machine)
- Extended Stronghold/Dominion rules
- Immortality rules
- Basic cosmology
- Gameplay options such as skills and weapon mastery.. Not sure if B/X had these?
- variant rules like dueling
- new classes like paladins, avengers, druids, and mystics. I don't believe B/X had these.
Someone familiar with B/X can add more.
My bad. Despite your post, I was thinking LL was based on BECMI/RC, not Moldvay/Cook, so I figured it was more an issue of scaling things back than adding lots more stuff.
Quote from: FASERIPAre they that different?
I thought outside of the extended levels and immortality rules and thieves, BECMI and Moldvay/Cook were thisclose.
They're pretty damn close up to level 14. There are some very minor differences in the progression rates of thief abilities (as you note), and spells for m-u's, elves, and clerics. The thief abilities are probably the biggest difference.
However, since B/X ends at level 14, whereas BECM/RC progresses to level 36, a fair number of differences emerge later on.
Such as:
Quote from: Lancer...
- mass combat (Siege/War Machine)
- Extended Stronghold/Dominion rules
- Immortality rules
- Gameplay options such as skills and weapon mastery...
Also, there are 'attack ranks' for non-human PCs (essentially, a removal of level limits via letter-based 'attack ranks', along with other special abilities for elves, dwarves, and halflings with tonnes of experience points); 'prestige classes' (viz., fighters can become paladins, knights, or avengers at level 9; neutral clerics can become druids); the 'mystic' class (not worth keeping, IMO); and a few other things.
I think that an 'Advanced Labyrinth Lord' that followed the current LL rules up to level 14, and then added some of the above options (no need for the mystic or the immortality rules IMO), would suffice for a retro-clone RC.
:cool:
@ FASERIP
No problem.
I didn't even know anything about LL until recently and just downloaded the free rules. I have never seen B/X before, but LL is not BECMI.
I like what Goblinoid Games is doing.. Their Mutant Future (http://www.goblinoidgames.com/mutantfuture.htm) looks to be inspired by TSR's Gamma World. Now they just need a BECMI version of LL. :(
I wished someone made a OGL equivalent for Warhammer Quest. :(
Quote from: AkrasiaThey're pretty damn close up to level 14. There are some very minor differences in the progression rates of thief abilities (as you note), and spells for m-u's, elves, and clerics. The thief abilities are probably the biggest difference.
However, since B/X ends at level 14, whereas BECM/RC progresses to level 36, a fair number of differences emerge later on.
Such as:
Also, there are 'attack ranks' for non-human PCs (essentially, a removal of level limits via letter-based 'attack ranks', along with other special abilities for elves, dwarves, and halflings with tonnes of experience points); 'prestige classes' (viz., fighters can become paladins, knights, or avengers at level 9; neutral clerics can become druids); the 'mystic' class (not worth keeping, IMO); and a few other things.
I think that an 'Advanced Labyrinth Lord' that followed the current LL rules up to level 14, and then added some of the above options (no need for the mystic or the immortality rules IMO), would suffice for a retro-clone RC.
:cool:
Thanks a bunch Akrasia for clarifying the differences! You were just the person I was thinking when I created this thread, BTW.
So is it possible that an Advanced LL that retro-clones the RC, is on the horizon?
I disagree with the removal of the mystic and Immortality rules.. Keep them in there. :p
Quote from: Lancer...
I disagree with the removal of the mystic and Immortality rules.. Keep them in there. :p
Well, the mystic is no big deal. :karate:
But the Immortality rules were not included in the RC, and there is a big difference between the rules in the Immortals Set (by Mentzer) and the later 'Wrath of the Immortals' box set. It would be a headache to try to sort all that out, especially given how few players would make use of those rules. The brief suggestions in the RC (suitably translated) would probably suffice.
Quote from: DeadUematsuI wished someone made a OGL equivalent for Warhammer Quest. :(
I played the old Milton Bradley HeroQuest board game. This was one of the bridges to D&D for me. I loved the plastic figurines. Used them in my Mystara campaigns back in the day.
Quote from: Lancer...
So is it possible that an Advanced LL that retro-clones the RC, is on the horizon?
...
Unfortunately, I don't think so. But you could always ask over at the LL forum.
(However, I do know that Dan Proctor has trademarked 'Advanced Labyrinth Lord', so it's possible that it's on the cards.)
Quote from: AkrasiaWell, the mystic is no big deal. :karate:
But the Immortality rules were not included in the RC, and there is a big difference between the rules in the Immortals Set (by Mentzer) and the later 'Wrath of the Immortals' box set. It would be a headache to try to sort all that out, especially given how few players would make use of those rules. The brief suggestions in the RC (suitably translated) would probably suffice.
You mean the Gold Box vs. WotI?
That's a good point because they are very different. They'd have to decide which interpretation they'd prefer to use, although I thought, from what I recall, the RC was more in line with the WotI interpretation. Although the RC didn't have rules for Immortality itself, it did have rules for PC ascension to Immortality for their chosen Sphere. That's the type of info I would love to see in a RC retro clone, IMHO.
In which case, they needn't worry about using neither the Gold Box or WotI sets.... Now that I think about it.
Quote from: LancerI played the old Milton Bradley HeroQuest board game. This was one of the bridges to D&D for me. I loved the plastic figurines. Used them in my Mystara campaigns back in the day.
I still use the orcs, goblins, mummies, zombies, necromancer and skeletons from Heroquest in my campaigns. Of course they're all painted now, but I still use them.
Best goblins ever!
Quote from: Lancer... the RC was more in line with the WotI interpretation...
I'm pretty sure that you're right about this (in fact, I'm 99.9% sure). However, I've owned neither the Immortals set nor the WoI. I just can't imagine ever running a campaign that used those rules (not that I wouldn't like to...).
I'd be happy if I could
finally run a Classic D&D campaign in which all the PCs made it to name level and established dominions.
Some day, some day ... :emot-sigh:
Quote from: LancerNow, is there a similar retro clone project for BECMI...
Unfortunately I am unable to tackle any larger scale projects at the moment, and through next year probably due to other obligations. While I'm not sure what direction I'll go with "Advanced Labyrinth Lord," I wasn't planning on taking it in this direction.
However, if anyone else feels the inclination, there is a free Labyrinth Lord trademark license for indicating compatibility. So someone else could conceivably write a "companion" and within could adjust various ability progressions to fit a maximum level of 36.
Of course, this is very hard work, and somewhat thankless only because the audience is so small. But, it could be done as a 3rd party product!
Quote from: Goblinoid GamesUnfortunately I am unable to tackle any larger scale projects at the moment, and through next year probably due to other obligations. While I'm not sure what direction I'll go with "Advanced Labyrinth Lord," I wasn't planning on taking it in this direction.
However, if anyone else feels the inclination, there is a free Labyrinth Lord trademark license for indicating compatibility. So someone else could conceivably write a "companion" and within could adjust various ability progressions to fit a maximum level of 36.
Of course, this is very hard work, and somewhat thankless only because the audience is so small. But, it could be done as a 3rd party product!
Hello! Great to see you here, Daniel!
I am looking forward to your Mutant Future game, BTW. That is something I can't wait to buy. And just so you know (as I am sure many others) I would like to thank you for filling in this much needed niche in our hobby. Your work and efforts are truly appreciated (even if the fanbase is small). Thank you sir.
An LL companion is possible? Hmmmm...
Quote from: AkrasiaI'm pretty sure that you're right about this (in fact, I'm 99.9% sure). However, I've owned neither the Immortals set nor the WoI. I just can't imagine ever running a campaign that used those rules (not that I wouldn't like to...).
I've owned both. WoI was indeed designed specifically for the RC era.
I thought the gold box rules were a jumbled mess of half-baked rules with huge gaps missing (much like the Gamma World 3e box set).
Wrath of the Immortals was a lot clearer and IMO superior. Though, like you, I can't really ever see running an actual campaign with them.
Quote from: LancerHello! Great to see you here, Daniel!
I am looking forward to your Mutant Future game, BTW. That is something I can't wait to buy.
Cool! I'm very excited about this as well. The book has shaped up exteremely well, and I'm going to start the layout process within the next few days. We have some really nice art for the book, in the old-school fashion. (Also remember that the electronic book will be free and provided to all who want to check it out. Buying a hard copy will help me recoup production costs, so I won't argue!)
Quote from: LancerAnd just so you know (as I am sure many others) I would like to thank you for filling in this much needed niche in our hobby. Your work and efforts are truly appreciated (even if the fanbase is small). Thank you sir.
Thanks for the kind words! My publishing goals are threefold: 1) Do my small part to bring back support for classic OOP games, 2) Support open gaming by making the text available to anyone who wants to make use of it, and 3) Preserve old-school games in the best way I can under the OGL so that they are always available to people who might want them.
Quote from: LancerAn LL companion is possible? Hmmmm...
That is perfectly feasible under the LL trademark license.:haw:
Quote from: Goblinoid GamesCool! I'm very excited about this as well. The book has shaped up exteremely well, and I'm going to start the layout process within the next few days. We have some really nice art for the book, in the old-school fashion.
This sounds really good. :D I look forward to the final product.
Quote(Also remember that the electronic book will be free and provided to all who want to check it out. Buying a hard copy will help me recoup production costs, so I won't argue!)
I am definitely aware of the free version but I try to do my part especially since you are doing all the hard work! And a hard copy is just better than a PDF, IMHO. :p
Quote from: Goblinoid GamesThanks for the kind words! My publishing goals are threefold: 1) Do my small part to bring back support for classic OOP games, 2) Support open gaming by making the text available to anyone who wants to make use of it, and 3) Preserve old-school games in the best way I can under the OGL so that they are always available to people who might want them.
So what's next after
Mutant Future?
My guesses:
* Mob Breakers
* Spur Valley
* Astonishing Machine
* Very Confidential
* Very Confidential / Distinctive Information
* Roger Bucks in the 2.5 Millennium
* Nanoc the Savage
* Illinois Smith
* Transformation Beta
* Kingdom of the Corolla Chair
* Wonder Fantastic Protagonists
* Wonder Fantastic Protagonists - Narrative Edition
* Differencity
Quote from: jgantsSo what's next after Mutant Future?
My guesses:
* Mob Breakers
* Spur Valley
* Astonishing Machine
* Very Confidential
* Very Confidential / Distinctive Information
* Roger Bucks in the 2.5 Millennium
* Nanoc the Savage
* Illinois Smith
* Transformation Beta
* Kingdom of the Corolla Chair
* Wonder Fantastic Protagonists
* Wonder Fantastic Protagonists - Narrative Edition
* Differencity
I'm not nearly that ambitious, after
Mutant Future, I'm taking a break!
Quote from: Goblinoid Games...While I'm not sure what direction I'll go with "Advanced Labyrinth Lord," I wasn't planning on taking it in this direction.
Hmmm ... I'm a bit surprised. Since OSRIC has AD&D covered, I had assumed that Advanced L&L would be something like the 'Companion' and 'Masters' rules for LL.
I guess that we'll just have to wait and see what happens (if anything, given your schedule) ... :raise:
Quote from: Goblinoid GamesHowever, if anyone else feels the inclination, there is a free Labyrinth Lord trademark license for indicating compatibility. So someone else could conceivably write a "companion" and within could adjust various ability progressions to fit a maximum level of 36.
If only I had the time ... :(
Quote from: Goblinoid GamesOf course, this is very hard work, and somewhat thankless only because the audience is so small. But, it could be done as a 3rd party product!
Well, for what it's worth Dan, I'm grateful for your efforts! :)
I ordered two copies of LL (one hardcover, one softcover) from Lulu. They should be waiting for me once I arrive at my gf's place in Toronto on Saturday ...
:hyper:
Quote from: AkrasiaI'd be happy if I could finally run a Classic D&D campaign in which all the PCs made it to name level and established dominions.
Some day, some day ... :emot-sigh:
You run it online or move to Albany, and I'm so there, man.
Quote from: jgantsSo what's next after Mutant Future?
My guesses:
* Mob Breakers
* Spur Valley
* Astonishing Machine
* Very Confidential
* Very Confidential / Distinctive Information
* Roger Bucks in the 2.5 Millennium
* Nanoc the Savage
* Illinois Smith
* Transformation Beta
* Kingdom of the Corolla Chair
* Wonder Fantastic Protagonists
* Wonder Fantastic Protagonists - Narrative Edition
* Differencity
HEHE
:D
Don't forget other old school, not necessarily TSR-related:
*The Spiritbreakers
*Teenage Mutant Samurai Tortoises And Other Weirdness
*Robomech
*Voyyager
*Stellar Horizons
* For Pixie, King, and Nation
* Ionic Bond 101: Roleplaying in His Highness' Confidential Employ
Quote from: KenHRYou run it online or move to Albany, and I'm so there, man.
I'm moving to Milwaukee in August (God help me), so not quite close enough. However, if I can't find a group there, I may have to resort to an online game (using a 'chat' program or something).
I'm running a Classic D&D PbP game right now, but I'll be happy if we can finish the current adventure within the next 8 months or so. Making it to name level with PbP will not happen in my lifetime.
Quote from: AkrasiaI'm moving to Milwaukee in August (God help me)
3 and a half hours north and you can join my group :).
Too bad you aren't moving to Madison, I could hook you up with a very intense HARP group.
The glorious thing about BECMI is that many of the best rules - I'm thinking of dominions and the mass combat rules, the guidelines for ascending to divinity, and of course the extra spells and monsters - can be dragged-and-dropped into B/X or AD&D 1E/2E with trivial ease (you don't really need to tweak the dominion rules or mass combat rules at all). A Labyrinth Lord Companion which just had the dominion rules and mass combat rules, in particular, could fill a really cool niche.
Quote from: AkrasiaI'm moving to Milwaukee in August (God help me), so not quite close enough.
Oh...I assume you mean Milwaukee Wisconsin USA? If that is the case, don't worry about finding a group, that place is crawling with gamers.
Quote from: grubmanOh...I assume you mean Milwaukee Wisconsin USA? If that is the case, don't worry about finding a group, that place is crawling with gamers.
Thanks for the info ... that's good news! :cool:
Quote from: AkrasiaI'm moving to Milwaukee in August (God help me), so not quite close enough. However, if I can't find a group there, I may have to resort to an online game (using a 'chat' program or something).
I've had great success in the past hooking up with my old gaming friends (who've scattered to the four winds in search of jobs) and playing games via voice chat and webcam. Not quite the real thing, but damn close. It helped that we were using a fancy conferencing app offered by the company where one of the players works, so lag was almost never a problem. I've done the same with folks via Yahoo IM, and while a bit laggier, it worked.
Face to face is definitely where it's at, though, and it looks like from what Grubman says you'll have no shortage of gamers at your future table!
Quote from: AkrasiaThanks for the info ... that's good news! :cool:
Actually, there are a lot of RPGnetters from that area, good likemionded gamers, (so use that as a tool, or keep you identity secret, as you like :)), and I know WFB has a very good following in the area too...if you want to get into that.