while giving my feedback on fleshmonger/worldmonger's legends of gaia i remarked on the female dwarves lacking beards what does the rpgsite think of beards on female dwarves im all for it myself
also relevant funny image
Spoiler
(http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs31/f/2008/203/4/c/Beard_or_No_Female_Dwarves_by_humbledwarf.jpg)
image source http://humbledwarf.deviantart.com/art/Beard-or-No-Female-Dwarves-92334352
i think there should only be 4 kinds of dwarven woman without beards
hipsters who are doing it to be different
teenagers and manchildren going through some sort of rebellious phase
and the rare person who just honestly prefers not to have 1
prepubescent children
to be honest i can even accept a culture of beard shaving but dwarven woman should always have the option of growing a beard just as long as a mans
I only like my bearded ladies in the carnival.
Seriously, I don't prefer the aesthetic. However if a setting or resource does include such, I would not dismiss it out of hand.
Modern female Homo Sapiens tend to have considerably less facial hair than males, however it's believed that the further you go back, the more hair we all had. From a biological standpoint, there could be a species that kept the hair for both sexes do to some environmental condition (probably cold). Being born into that species, a person would have different standards for attractiveness than the current "majority preference".
I remember as young pubescent boys playing D&D, we preferred all our women to be buxom, beardless and beautiful. As we have learned growing up, this may not only be unrealistic but extremely naive. You quickly learn to appreciate all types as you find there is so much more than boobs and beards involved in what attracts us to each other.
It is however a fantasy game. So, whatever ties your bootstraps and all that jazz. I think the decision to do so should be made in consideration of fun and awesome. If you believe that bearded female dwarves are fun and awesome, then you should include that.
i agree (well not about the beardless being better but everything else you said) and i do indeed find them fun and awesome
oh i just realised the 5th exception adventures and soldiers a beard just gets in the way when fighting, all my characters have no hair on there head past a small moustache.
The RPG debate about whether female dwarves had beards or not was trite, lame and old in the 70s, and IMHO helped fuel the stereotype that tabletop gaming was the exclusive province of misogynist nitwits.
Who. The Fuck. Really. Cares?
people designing a setting for 1
also fa/tg/uys its the sort of argument we love
and all sorts of other people
Personally, if I'm running a trad-fantasy setting, female dwarves have beards. In fact, much like Pratchett's dwarves, they're practically indistinguishable from the males.
Females who shave are daring feminists, hipsters who are leaving their traditions behind, or adventurers who need the practicality of a good shave (and are generally part of the other two groups).
I go with what seems to be the current compromise - that dwarven matrons have beards, young maids don't. Beards are a sign of maturity. I expect middle-aged dwarf prostitutes shave their beards to appear useful, but it's not something a respectable married dwarf woman would do.
Was the idea of bearded female dwarves part of the mythology that inspired the race or something invented for D and D specifically? I've always been curious but, honestly, too lazy to do the research.
Quote from: Nexus;820268Was the idea of bearded female dwarves part of the mythology that inspired the race or something invented for D and D specifically? I've always been curious but, honestly, too lazy to do the research.
Predictably, it originated with Tolkien.
I liked the idea, from the sadly late Terry Pratchett, that much of dwarven courtship involved determining the sex of the other dwarf.
In my games, dwarven females have beards and elven males don't. Why? Because that's the way it is.
Quote from: S'mon;820264I go with what seems to be the current compromise - that dwarven matrons have beards, young maids don't. Beards are a sign of maturity. I expect middle-aged dwarf prostitutes shave their beards to appear useful, but it's not something a respectable married dwarf woman would do.
wait why does a lack of a beard make a prostitute seem useful
If I had a player who wanted to play a female dwarf, I'd leave it up to them. As the GM, I don't have dwarf females in my games. The Dwerrow are a male race who marry human or elf women.
Beards are markers of bravery, accomplishment, rank, and status. You gotta earn your beard, regardless of whether you're male or female.
Quote from: languagegeek;820363Beards are markers of bravery, accomplishment, rank, and status. You gotta earn your beard, regardless of whether you're male or female.
Totally will quote that in my wedding speech.
wait your getting married
Quote from: tuypo1;820352wait why does a lack of a beard make a prostitute seem useful
I think it was going to be "youthful" until the spell check decided to make good on its extortion threats.
Maybe if you read more of your own posts you'd develop as much skill at figuring out typos as the rest of us. :p
ah yes of course
also i cant work out if that was a weak or (oh god i cant belive im about to say this) wicked burn
Quote from: tuypo1;820372also i cant work out if that was a weak or (oh god i cant belive im about to say this) wicked burn
Let me know the effect on my alignment when you work it out.
no effect i think the act may be very slightly chaotic leaning but it would have to be an extreme edge case for it to be major enough to decide alignment
Quote from: Ravenswing;820225The RPG debate about whether female dwarves had beards or not was trite, lame and old in the 70s, and IMHO helped fuel the stereotype that tabletop gaming was the exclusive province of misogynist nitwits.
Who. The Fuck. Really. Cares?
I agree it's an old discussion I've seen come up many times over the years.
Trite and Lame? What's so trite and lame about it? It's just a bit of fun really, as are many of the discussions here about Fantasy (and other genre RPGs)
And as for Misogynistic, that's just plain bizarre.... Why is it misogynistic?
Because it somehow offends your Humancentric standards?
Quote from: PiebaldWookie;820242Personally, if I'm running a trad-fantasy setting, female dwarves have beards. In fact, much like Pratchett's dwarves, they're practically indistinguishable from the males.
If I'm running a joke setting like Discworld, female dwarves have beards.
Otherwise, no.
so middle earth is a joke setting
Long ago I got asked this question by one of my players and said something like "Very few humans have ever even seen a dwarf woman, so I'll leave it up to the first person who plays a female dwarf to decide".
Fifteen or so years and dozens (If not 100+) of PCs later, the question has yet to be settled. No one in my campaign has yet played a female dwarf.
wow.
I'm not all that fond of dwarfs, at least not the Tolkien version. If I were to put them in a setting I'd might be inclined to say they're all male and that new dwarves are mined, not born... or go back to their origins where they were more like creepy elves and probably not even short. Either way... the whole beard question would be moot.
Quote from: Ravenswing;820225The RPG debate about whether female dwarves had beards or not was trite, lame and old in the 70s, and IMHO helped fuel the stereotype that tabletop gaming was the exclusive province of misogynist nitwits.
Who. The Fuck. Really. Cares?
+1
For the anecdote, I once saw (in real life) a woman with a (small) mustache. This was deep in the rural country far from any urban center, in the mountains amidst a forest. (And no, I don't exaggerate...) Well, I am not in a hurry for witnessing this again...
Quote from: danskmacabre;820377I agree it's an old discussion I've seen come up many times over the years.
Trite and Lame? What's so trite and lame about it? It's just a bit of fun really, as are many of the discussions here about Fantasy (and other genre RPGs)
And as for Misogynistic, that's just plain bizarre.... Why is it misogynistic?
Because it somehow offends your Humancentric standards?
indeed this is not a topic to get worked up about its a fun thing to discus but theres no reason to get enraged about it and think people are wrong or anything save that for point buy vs rolled stats
Quote from: danskmacabre;820377Trite and Lame? What's so trite and lame about it? It's just a bit of fun really, as are many of the discussions here about Fantasy (and other genre RPGs)
And as for Misogynistic, that's just plain bizarre.... Why is it misogynistic?
Because it somehow offends your Humancentric standards?
What's trite and lame about it? Simple. This is one of the many elements that's completely, absolutely, 100% up to every individual GM and setting designer. There's no "evidence" you can quote one way or another to support what's entirely a matter of personal preference. It's like holding a "debate" on why I like the color purple better than red, or why you like blue better than green. That's why.
Misogynistic? Errr ... take off the blinkers some, there. This is a hobby that from Day One was a male preserve. Women weren't welcome in many groups, often hazed when they tried, and often stigmatized as the Gamer Girlfriend if they stuck around. Of those 57 female players I mentioned in the other thread, several sought to play male characters. They'd
always played male characters, because that upped the chances of male players taking them seriously, pretty much eliminated the expected gang-rapes by NPCs (I am not making this up) and short-circuited the anticipated sexualization of their characters by the same twerps who thought that 38-DD Lesbian Stripper Ninjas were a real hoot.
And into this mix, you had a bunch of Doritos-munching neckbeards guffawing about how All Female Dwarves Had Beards! Hahahahaha! I wasn't at all astonished when a number of female players regarded it as just another bout of hazing.
Never experienced any hazing. I learned D&D from a friend's older sister, and knew many college-age girls that roleplayed. Maybe that was just in your area.
Quote from: TristramEvans;820470Never experienced any hazing. I learned D&D from a friend's older sister, and knew many college-age girls that roleplayed. Maybe that was just in your area.
Pretty much this. But I've ever only seen one true neckbeard group as well. Maybe it's just American climate?
Quote from: TristramEvans;820288Predictably, it originated with Tolkien.
Thanks
Quote from: Rincewind1;820471Pretty much this. But I've ever only seen one true neckbeard group as well. Maybe it's just American climate?
America, like booze the source of all great and all terrible things. :D
Quote from: Turanil;820408For the anecdote, I once saw (in real life) a woman with a (small) mustache. This was deep in the rural country far from any urban center, in the mountains amidst a forest. (And no, I don't exaggerate...) Well, I am not in a hurry for witnessing this again...
I lived in Ireland for a while - That is nothing new ... :)
Quote from: tuypo1;820352wait why does a lack of a beard make a prostitute seem useful
I was attempting to write "youthful" :)
Quote from: rawma;820367I think it was going to be "youthful" until the spell check decided to make good on its extortion threats.
Maybe if you read more of your own posts you'd develop as much skill at figuring out typos as the rest of us. :p
Yep! :D Come to think of it I may have been posting from my phone at the time.
Quote from: Ravenswing;820466What's trite and lame about it? Simple. This is one of the many elements that's completely, absolutely, 100% up to every individual GM and setting designer. There's no "evidence" you can quote one way or another to support what's entirely a matter of personal preference. It's like holding a "debate" on why I like the color purple better than red, or why you like blue better than green. That's why.
Misogynistic? Errr ... take off the blinkers some, there. This is a hobby that from Day One was a male preserve. Women weren't welcome in many groups, often hazed when they tried, and often stigmatized as the Gamer Girlfriend if they stuck around. Of those 57 female players I mentioned in the other thread, several sought to play male characters. They'd always played male characters, because that upped the chances of male players taking them seriously, pretty much eliminated the expected gang-rapes by NPCs (I am not making this up) and short-circuited the anticipated sexualization of their characters by the same twerps who thought that 38-DD Lesbian Stripper Ninjas were a real hoot.
And into this mix, you had a bunch of Doritos-munching neckbeards guffawing about how All Female Dwarves Had Beards! Hahahahaha! I wasn't at all astonished when a number of female players regarded it as just another bout of hazing.
I'm not seeing the connection between gang rape of female PCs and female dwarves with beards.
Hm, perhaps I should Check My Beard Privilege, as you crazy SJW kids say these days.
Quote from: Ravenswing;820466What's trite and lame about it? Simple. This is one of the many elements that's completely, absolutely, 100% up to every individual GM and setting designer. There's no "evidence" you can quote one way or another to support what's entirely a matter of personal preference. It's like holding a "debate" on why I like the color purple better than red, or why you like blue better than green. That's why.
It seems to me there's lots of people expressing their view on the subject and yes how they'd apply in different fantasy worlds. There's nothing wrong with that.
It seems to me you just like to be outraged at things and take offense.. It'd be great if you'd calm down a bit so this can be a sane discussion.
Quote from: Ravenswing;820466
Misogynistic? Errr ... take off the blinkers some, there. This is a hobby that from Day One was a male preserve. Women weren't welcome in many groups, often hazed when they tried, and often stigmatized as the Gamer Girlfriend if they stuck around. Of those 57 female players I mentioned in the other thread, several sought to play male characters. They'd always played male characters, because that upped the chances of male players taking them seriously, pretty much eliminated the expected gang-rapes by NPCs (I am not making this up) and short-circuited the anticipated sexualization of their characters by the same twerps who thought that 38-DD Lesbian Stripper Ninjas were a real hoot.
And into this mix, you had a bunch of Doritos-munching neckbeards guffawing about how All Female Dwarves Had Beards! Hahahahaha! I wasn't at all astonished when a number of female players regarded it as just another bout of hazing.
[troll feeding post edited down]
I've been playing and running RPGs for years, ever since the early 80s.
I've run and played RPGs for lots of women (and men) .
Sure I've met a few weirdos over the years who were offensive and nasty for various reason, but they've been ejected from the RPG group when that became apparent.
Quote from: Ravenswing;820466What's trite and lame about it? Simple. This is one of the many elements that's completely, absolutely, 100% up to every individual GM and setting designer. There's no "evidence" you can quote one way or another to support what's entirely a matter of personal preference. It's like holding a "debate" on why I like the color purple better than red, or why you like blue better than green. That's why.
Misogynistic? Errr ... take off the blinkers some, there. This is a hobby that from Day One was a male preserve. Women weren't welcome in many groups, often hazed when they tried, and often stigmatized as the Gamer Girlfriend if they stuck around. Of those 57 female players I mentioned in the other thread, several sought to play male characters. They'd always played male characters, because that upped the chances of male players taking them seriously, pretty much eliminated the expected gang-rapes by NPCs (I am not making this up) and short-circuited the anticipated sexualization of their characters by the same twerps who thought that 38-DD Lesbian Stripper Ninjas were a real hoot.
And into this mix, you had a bunch of Doritos-munching neckbeards guffawing about how All Female Dwarves Had Beards! Hahahahaha! I wasn't at all astonished when a number of female players regarded it as just another bout of hazing.
you make what sounds like a lot of good points im not going to comment on there validity i just dont have the experience for that (although i do suspect its largely bullshit) but then you try and fail to make a really stupid connection between those theoretically good points and bearded dwarves
I agree with Ravenswing; this is trite and lame, and probably just another manifestation of misogyny. I propose that we have no more female dwarf beard threads until we have had an equal number of threads about whether male elves grow beards. If you don't think there's even a whiff of misogyny here, why isn't that an equally engaging topic?
Quote from: rawma;820552I agree with Ravenswing; this is trite and lame, and probably just another manifestation of misogyny. I propose that we have no more female dwarf beard threads until we have had an equal number of threads about whether male elves grow beards. If you don't think there's even a whiff of misogyny here, why isn't that an equally engaging topic?
Perhaps you're just being Ironic and having a laugh.
However on the off chance you're not then I'll reply as follows:
Dwarves in most fantasy RPGs have beards.
Female Dwarves are not portrayed much in RPGs or even literature that much.
In LOTR they are hardly mentioned at all, so no-one really knows much about female Dwarves.
So a discussion about whether female Dwarves having beards, which whilst not very serious, is hardly Misogynistic. I don't see any hate towards women being projected here...
As to why there's may not be any discussions about female Elves and Beards as traditionally in Fantasy RPGs and Literature, Male Elves don't have beards and Female elves are described many times and they don't have beards either.
Tolkien's Elves, apart from a couple of Exceptions (Cirdan for example) don't have beards. That doesn't mean elves in other fantasy worlds don't or even perhaps female Elves have beards too.. that's up to whoever to explore that.
But thus far, beards aren't generally associated with Elves.
Tolkien stated later in his life that only really old Elves could develop beards.
But whatever the case, Beards are generally heavily associated with Dwarves and not Elves. So if someone poses the question of female Dwarves and beards does not necessarily mean they're a Woman hater.
I propose you create a new thread about Female Elves and beards and if you don't you're a Misogynist... ;)
Quote from: rawma;820552I agree with Ravenswing; this is trite and lame, and probably just another manifestation of misogyny. I propose that we have no more female dwarf beard threads until we have had an equal number of threads about whether male elves grow beards. If you don't think there's even a whiff of misogyny here, why isn't that an equally engaging topic?
i know your joking but i feel that for the most part beards on elves should be reserved for wizards mostly male wizards but a female wizard can grow a beard if they want to i suppose they have magic. Its quite odd really because normally i am averse to the whole wizards have long beards thing
Quote from: rawma;820552I agree with Ravenswing; this is trite and lame, and probably just another manifestation of misogyny. I propose that we have no more female dwarf beard threads until we have had an equal number of threads about whether male elves grow beards. If you don't think there's even a whiff of misogyny here, why isn't that an equally engaging topic?
I think we should talk about Elven pubes, the lack thereof and the connection to the modern porn industry.
come to think of it d&d elves dont become adults until they declare themselves adults is there some process that suddenly makes them magically sexually mature with sudden growth of genitals and pubic hair and whatnot or is it just a cultural thing and they are biologically adults well before that.
Has anyone made LOTR porn? Seems like someone must have taken a shot at it.
Quote from: Simlasa;820571Has anyone made LOTR porn? Seems like someone must have taken a shot at it.
There's at least two Game of Thrones based porn movies so its gotta be out there somewhere.
As to elves in general:
Of the Demi-humans in Fantasy (and Scifi), they seem to have lots of variety as to what they're like.
With Tolkien, they're Immortal, immune to Disease and resistant to poisons.
They don't scar easily, Heal faster and generally a lot more powerful than humans.
In DnD, they can be a LOT older than humans, but not immortal.
They tend to be more magical, however not particularly more powerful than humans.
In Runequest, aren't Elves actually vegetable matter?
In Scarlett Heroes, Elves are Humans that have been affected by some Dire magical experiment gone wrong..
Dwarves tend to be pretty much sameish across RPGs, although no completely, there are some RPGs that address them in a different way.
the trailer for pacific rimjob seems to indicate that the fight scenes will be better then they were in pacific rim itself
that was a fun thread
Quote from: danskmacabre;820580In Runequest, aren't Elves actually vegetable matter?
now that has my intrest
Quote from: tuypo1;820582now that has my intrest
Yeah here it is.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RuneQuest
Elves are humanoid plant life.
well thats cool
the line below that entices me though monster characters are awesome
Quote from: danskmacabre;820580In Runequest, aren't Elves actually vegetable matter?
I thought that was only from the viewpoint of trolls (a troll Runelord (or Runepriest?) had a ceremonial obligation to eat large amounts of vegetable matter, but elves counted).
Quote from: rawma;820588I thought that was only from the viewpoint of trolls (a troll Runelord (or Runepriest?) had a ceremonial obligation to eat large amounts of vegetable matter, but elves counted).
that is a possibility that wikipedia page was not very good quality
Quote from: rawma;820588I thought that was only from the viewpoint of trolls (a troll Runelord (or Runepriest?) had a ceremonial obligation to eat large amounts of vegetable matter, but elves counted).
Perhaps, I'm not sure.
I remember playing RQ many years ago when it was firmly tied to Glorantha.
Elves were described as essentially vegetable matter.
Still perhaps that was just the GMs POV.
Googling it now, there's some debate about that.
Some view it as they're Hermaphroditic beings, but not actually made of vegetable matter, but have a Symbiotic relationship with plant matter.
So the exact answer is probably kind of complicated.
I'd need to have a read of the actual RQ/glorantha rules to be sure.
I do have them in a box somewhere at home.
Quote from: tuypo1;820590that is a possibility that wikipedia page was not very good quality
Possibly yeah, it wouldn't be the first time.
I might have the rules on my tablet, I'll have a look.
/tg/ has a Glorantha if you cant find anything in the next 3 days when my ban for global rule 4 has expired i will ask them
The official rules for Gloranthan Elves on the subject
http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/pdf/lcgloranthaintro.pdf?PHPSESSID=fc014911f7dc9788a160d482aae94fee
Aldryami (Elves)
Glorantha's so-called elfs, who refer to themselves as aldryami,
are mobile, intelligent plant beings in humanoid form. Some
appear quite human, with only the odd vegetable feature, like
vines for hair. Others are covered with bark or thorns. Each
elf is the human-like manifestation of a particular type of
tree: there are birch elfs, oak elfs, ash elfs and so on. Brown
elfs spring from deciduous forests. Green elfs are found in
coniferous forests; yellow elfs, in jungles.
They enjoy a sense of mystic harmony with the woods and
jungles around them. In place of gods and goddesses, they
commune with several life forces found within the Song of the
Woods, most notably the lovely Aldrya the Grower.
So they're definitively sapient plants in Glorantha
yep no question there i dont know how there is debate over something so clear (to be clear im not referring to what rawma said im talking about other debate)
there sort of like a cross between a dryad and a treant
Quote from: danskmacabre;820598So they're definitively sapient plants in Glorantha
They sound vaguely like dryads, but not tied to specific trees.
On the other hand, this means my estimation of Gloranthan troll humor has now gone down.
we must find new humour to renew your faith
Quote from: danskmacabre;820558I propose you create a new thread about Female Elves and beards and if you don't you're a Misogynist... ;)
Interesting suggestion, since my question was about male elves and beards. Was the gender change because discussing characters' appearances is automatically about female characters? :p
Quote from: rawma;820611Interesting suggestion, since my question was about male elves and beards. Was the gender change because discussing characters' appearances is automatically about female characters? :p
Oh yeah, so you did, I guess I was just focused on the whole female/beards thing.
Well the answer to your first question is, Tolkien Elves generally don't have beards (with some exceptions as discussed earlier).
In DnD, I don't particularly remember seeing elves portrayed with beards and in the Dragonlance world, Krynn I think, it specifically states Elves DON'T have beards, male or female.
I suppose that doesn't exclude Forgotten realms elves from beards, or Golarion Elves though.
although as i mentioned above i treat beards on elves as a wizard thing thats really just a fashion thing a group of elves removed from the rest of elven culture for a few thousand years may well have beards be fashionable for all
According to this:
http://tolkien.cro.net/dwarves/women.html
Tolkien female Dwarves may well have had beards.
It states in the Appendices that female dwarves are hard to distinguish from males.
Seeing as the only Dwarves we ever see or read about in LOTR have beards, then it's not unreasonable to say that it's most likely female Dwarves DID have beards in Tolkien's world.
Or at least that seems to be implied.
Apparently even in the Hobbit movie , they decided to give female Dwarves sideburns extending down like a light beard.
(http://i.stack.imgur.com/DLKgz.png)
thats badass i think i will keep full beards for most females but maybe have a isolated group where thats the female fashion
thats the great thing about a races culture take them out of it for a few generations and you can do some fun things
I'm going to say tentacles instead of beards, while using their psionic powers to fool the observer into thinking they have beards and genders.
Quote from: rawma;820620I'm going to say tentacles instead of beards, while using their psionic powers to fool the observer into thinking they have beards and genders.
Ah yes, the infamous Beardflayers. ;)
but mindflayers do have genders, well in a way at least im pretty sure they can use female hosts
Quote from: tuypo1;820627but mindflayers do have genders, well in a way at least im pretty sure they can use female hosts
Mindflayers well have a gender, but who can say if a Beardflayer does..
Actually having just googled mindflayers and gender, there seems to be mixed results about that.
It looks like it's Edition specific. Some editions say there are male and female Mind flayers, other places, they have no gender...
I dunno *shrug*
Tolkien had nothing to say on the subject, so therefore they have no genders.
i dont have the book of aberations (i may buy that later today though) but what i have picked up from various places is that they reproduce by sticking parasites in humans i doubt that the parisites themselves have a gender but i would assume they stick to there hosts gender in basic shape at least
Wait, Tolkien said that mindflayers are parasites?
i dont think so
but he never said they werent
Quote from: Rincewind1;820471Pretty much this. But I've ever only seen one true neckbeard group as well. Maybe it's just American climate?
I think its just a case of Ravenswing thinking their isolated personal experiences are indicative of a norm that never existed.
(http://media.boingboing.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/BzB2U4pCYAA0fqm1.jpg)
Gaze upon the misogyny of the 80s!
...are they using 8" action figures for minis? Thats hardcore!
the 80s were a grainy time with strange hairstyles
not that the decade i grew up in was any less strange
For me, ever since the early 90s, there were a lot of female roleplayers I played RPGs with and they were treated with as much respect as their male counterparts.
Before the 90s, in my experience, I didn't play RPGs with women, although I just didn't know any female roleplayers.
I think probably as RPGs like Vampire, Werewolf and the general theatre of the min RPGs, which were more about Roleplaying than adventuring attracted more women.
Certainly when I ran Vampire and games like that in the 90s, there were at least as many women playing them as men.
In the 80s, I was a teenager and I hardly ever saw Female roleplayers. They just weren't there. I think where I lived at the time (Sydney Australia) it was a VERY niche hobby.
I remember one female roleplayer, who was the wife of a guy who ran an LGS.
although I never RP'd with her, she seemed very confident and happily chatted about RPGs and games she took part in.
I'm not saying sexist, abusive behaviour never happened anywhere in the world in the RPG community. But if you see such thing a happening, then you should be doing something about it then and there putting a stop to it, rather than whining about how bad it was and how much it went on.
The people I played with at the time (whether pre 90s or after) would have had no problem playing RPGs with women and if they had behaved in a sexist or crude manner towards female players, I would have put a stop to it.
Quote from: danskmacabre;820722For me, ever since the early 90s, there were a lot of female roleplayers I played RPGs with and they were treated with as much respect as their male counterparts.
Before the 90s, in my experience, I didn't play RPGs with women, although I just didn't know any female roleplayers.
I think probably as RPGs like Vampire, Werewolf and the general theatre of the min RPGs, which were more about Roleplaying than adventuring attracted more women.
Certainly when I ran Vampire and games like that in the 90s, there were at least as many women playing them as men.
In the 80s, I was a teenager and I hardly ever saw Female roleplayers. They just weren't there. I think where I lived at the time (Sydney Australia) it was a VERY niche hobby.
I remember one female roleplayer, who was the wife of a guy who ran an LGS.
although I never RP'd with her, she seemed very confident and happily chatted about RPGs and games she took part in.
I'm not saying sexist, abusive behaviour never happened anywhere in the world in the RPG community. But if you see such thing a happening, then you should be doing something about it then and there putting a stop to it, rather than whining about how bad it was and how much it went on.
The people I played with at the time (whether pre 90s or after) would have had no problem playing RPGs with women and if they had behaved in a sexist or crude manner towards female players, I would have put a stop to it.
This was largely my experience, except for knowing several female roleplayers in the 80s.
i have not been doing this for as long as the rest of you but i also have never seen any problems of the sort. i see the occasional creeper on /tg/ asking for advice on attracting the woman in there group but they are swiftly insulted with incredible ferocity so it sure as hell aint tolerated. even then its very rare to see that you might get it once every 3 or 4 months.
Quote from: danskmacabre;820722Before the 90s, in my experience, I didn't play RPGs with women, although I just didn't know any female roleplayers.
QuoteIn the 80s, I was a teenager and I hardly ever saw Female roleplayers. They just weren't there.
QuoteI'm not saying sexist, abusive behaviour never happened anywhere in the world in the RPG community. But if you see such thing a happening, then you should be doing something about it then and there putting a stop to it, rather than whining about how bad it was and how much it went on.
The people I played with at the time (whether pre 90s or after) would have had no problem playing RPGs with women and if they had behaved in a sexist or crude manner towards female players, I would have put a stop to it.
This is very close to "I didn't see it, so it must not have happened".
The one guy we kicked out of our group in the late 70s was the guy who thought gang rape of female PCs was a natural thing (among other issues). And we had a fair number of women, both players and DMs, in that group. But some women who joined related unpleasant experiences elsewhere, and I don't know how many might have played but didn't because of such experiences elsewhere. And it's not just the extreme examples; there are subtler forms of sexism which you might not have even noticed, and interrupting the game "to put a stop to it", even where feasible, could itself be a discouraging experience.
Quote from: TristramEvans;820642Gaze upon the misogyny of the 80s!
...are they using 8" action figures for minis? Thats hardcore!
A marketing picture is often different than the reality.
I knew women who were in the RPG scene in the 1980s. However, they were definitely a small minority.
As for actual data:
Gary Alan Fine published his sociological study "Shared Fantasy" in 1983, for example, and noted that readership surveys returned 2.4% women (The Dragon) and 0.4% women (The Space Gamer). He interviewed Gary Gygax who at the time estimated active females to be between 10% and 15% of the community. (I suspect that Gary may have over-estimated.)
The best data is the 1998 Wizards of the Coast survey (the only public study with a controlled representative sample rather than self-selected people writing in). That found 19% women in tabletop RPGs, eight years after Vampire: The Masquerade debuted.
I have always held that there are no Dwarven women. If some Dwarves want to *pretend* there are, well, who am I to judge?
-clash
As for dwarven women - I would have them with beards if it was a game in Middle Earth.
I'm fine with the without beards in D&D settings like Forgotten Realms - which seems to be how D&D is defining things now.
Quote from: rawma;821012This is very close to "I didn't see it, so it must not have happened".
No it's not, as I specifically said "I'm not saying it didn't happen, I'm just saying I didn't experience it"...
Read my posts properly..
Quote from: rawma;821012The one guy we kicked out of our group in the late 70s was the guy who thought gang rape of female PCs was a natural thing (among other issues). And we had a fair number of women, both players and DMs, in that group. But some women who joined related unpleasant experiences elsewhere, and I don't know how many might have played but didn't because of such experiences elsewhere. And it's not just the extreme examples; there are subtler forms of sexism which you might not have even noticed, and interrupting the game "to put a stop to it", even where feasible, could itself be a discouraging experience.
I can't speak much for the 70s, I was very young then, but I know there was a hell of a lot of sexism around in the 70s, so it wasn't specific to RPGs.
Still, it's better to do something about it than not, even if it breaks up a gaming group.
That guy you're referring to sounds like a lunatic, even by 70s standards.
i would say its a lunatic by any time periods standards he sounds like one of those people who are convinced people in the past approved of rape
Quote from: danskmacabre;821063No it's not, as I specifically said "I'm not saying it didn't happen, I'm just saying I didn't experience it"...
And yet you were sure from your first post that a sexist discussion is no problem, apparently because it's too remote from your experience to be a concern.
Quote from: jhkim;821031As for dwarven women - I would have them with beards if it was a game in Middle Earth.
I'm fine with the without beards in D&D settings like Forgotten Realms - which seems to be how D&D is defining things now.
Pretty much my sentiments as well. In an established setting like Middle Earth, bearded Dwarven women is expected (though one can do whatever they want ultimately) and if I was playing in Middle Earth it's what I would accept. In the Forgotten Realms and my personal setting, Dwarven women are beardless, as that appeals more to my aesthetics than women with beards.
Quote from: rawma;821087And yet you were sure from your first post that a sexist discussion is no problem, apparently because it's too remote from your experience to be a concern.
Erm, I think you're going to have to clarify that some more.
I don't really understand what you're getting at.
Quote from: jhkim;821016A marketing picture is often different than the reality.
I knew women who were in the RPG scene in the 1980s. However, they were definitely a small minority.
True, women were a minority in all geeky endeavours back then. My experience suggests they were not as rare as suggested, but certainly not on par with guys. But, and this is a big but, my experience also leads me to believe this was largely due to choice on behalf of girls themselves, more than the male gamers. I do not think the hobby as whole was in any way unwelcoming to females, I think that instead society as a whole was incredibly prejudiced against geeks and anything associated with them. This was long before "geek chic" and the modern social acceptance of such things. Geeks in the 80s were socially ostracized. The term "Geek" may have been born as a badge of pride by those of us who took a path outside of what was socially acceptable, but to the majority of kids our age it was a pejorative. One not many girls would be willing to risk.
QuoteAs for actual data:
Gary Alan Fine published his sociological study "Shared Fantasy" in 1983, for example, and noted that readership surveys returned 2.4% women (The Dragon) and 0.4% women (The Space Gamer).
I'm not sure how much a readership survey counts as actual data. I never read either of those magazines and in 30 years of gaming, haven't met anyone who read The Space Gamer and maybe a fraction of roleplayers that picked up Dragon on anything close to a regular basis. My guess is that those results would be as askewed as a demographics poll on an rpg forum.
QuoteHe interviewed Gary Gygax who at the time estimated active females to be between 10% and 15% of the community. (I suspect that Gary may have over-estimated.)
I suspect Gary was not widely-travelled enough to make an estimation based on anything besides a few cons he attended.
QuoteThe best data is the 1998 Wizards of the Coast survey (the only public study with a controlled representative sample rather than self-selected people writing in). That found 19% women in tabletop RPGs, eight years after Vampire: The Masquerade debuted.
That sounds closer to the reality I grew up with in the 80s, I would say it probably doubled in the 90s.
But even if my experience was unusual, ultimately the accusation is that hobbyists were unwelcoming to female players, as if the ratio of female to male players represents this. My contention is this couldn't be further from the truth. The internet aside, on the whole, IRL, especially in the 80s, I've found that the geek subculture is one of the most welcoming, accepting subcultures around. The modern stereotype of the misogynistic geek @gatekeeper@ is purely an online invention. Which isnt to say there werent misogynistic gamers. But they never represented more of a percentage of the population than any other social clique, more likely far less. Social ostracisation led to a group that, across the 3 countries I grew up in, was incredibly welcoming to anyone willing to participate. One need look no further than the real life experiences of Warhammer Joey these days to show the reality I grew up with. Geeks were friendly, nonjudgemental, and above all else wanted to share their love of their hobbies with anyone who expressed an interest. What it came down to is, not many girls were interested. Even to this day, a flat poll of girls over guys will undoubtably find that far fewer women are interested in geeky subjects. More are willing now, than any point in history, to give such hobbies a chance, now that the social stigma is lifted, but we are still talking about activities that the majority of women in the world simply dont have any interest in.
Well, my first gaming group was approximately half women and half men from 1977 when I started to the late eighties, even when weekly attendance passe a dozen people. In the nineties, the women members dropped off one by one as they married and had children, until the late nineties, when it was almost always all-male, and I stopped the group due to D&D/Fantasy burnout. My second group has always had at least one woman in it, and when I started running games over IRC in the early 2000s, I usually had some women in those groups.
I suppose this is like disputing Global Warming by throwing a snowball in Congress... :D
-clash
Quote from: TristramEvans;821127What it came down to is, not many girls were interested. Even to this day, a flat poll of girls over guys will undoubtably find that far fewer women are interested in geeky subjects. More are willing now, than any point in history, to give such hobbies a chance, now that the social stigma is lifted, but we are still talking about activities that the majority of women in the world simply dont have any interest in.
Anecdotes can be useful, but any single person's sampling isn't the whole story. I know a number of women who say they were put off by sexism in the geek community, as well as some who didn't have a problem. Who is more representative? I don't know for sure. That's why I cited the surveys, although the only one I think is decent is the 1998 WotC survey. (It polled randomized representative households.)
As far as interest in geeky subjects, I think it is quite interesting. Women have made enormous strides within s number of traditionally geeky subjects: biology, chemistry, physics, and others. Computers have definitely been associated with increasingly high status since the 1980s. However, the number of women in computing has been decreasing.
(https://i.imgur.com/pkZPrOI.png)
Something that is clear to me is that the percentage of women is clearly strongly affected by culture and society.
Quote from: jhkim;821149Computers have definitely been associated with increasingly high status since the 1980s. However, the number of women in computing has been decreasing.
Computer science used to have an 'IBM' image - safe and respectable. Starting in the early '80s Steve Jobs and co turned it into a geek wonderland. Women who wanted a safe conformist career ceased entering the profession.
It may be that as Geekery gets higher social status these days, we may see more female computer programmers again (one of my main D&D group players was a young female programmer - she left recently after graduation). However computer programming, is hard, and high talent women have a lot of easier & lucrative career options such as Law* (my field), so I think it will continue to mostly appeal to the more nerdy object-focused mindset that is more typically** male.
*Law at University undergraduate level is about 2/3 female in the UK. I'm surprised that graph shows it under 50% in the US, but maybe being a postgrad subject in the US is a factor.
**Although Australia seems to be full of women who are terrifyingly competent masters of the very crunchy 4e D&D game combat system. Must be something in the water (or the beer?) :)
Quote from: S'mon;821235**Although Australia seems to be full of women who are terrifyingly competent masters of the very crunchy 4e D&D game combat system. Must be something in the water (or the beer?) :)
it is a cause of great shame to me that my countrymen love beer so much i mean i dont drink at all but beer has got to be the worst of the alcohols
Quote from: S'mon;821235Must be something in the water (or the beer?) :)
Wait, I thought "water" was Australian for American beer? :D
Quote from: jhkim;821149As far as interest in geeky subjects, I think it is quite interesting. Women have made enormous strides within s number of traditionally geeky subjects: biology, chemistry, physics, and others.
Honestly, that is not what I meant by geeky subjects. I was referring more to superheroes, barbarians, monsters, giant robots, ninjas, etc. I've never associated women with having less of an interest in scientific pursuits. Maybe because Ada Lovelace is one of my heroes.
Interestingly, 2 often maligned geek interests that do seem to have an equal or better number of female adherents are horror films and cheesecake art.
Quote from: tuypo1;820773i have not been doing this for as long as the rest of you but i also have never seen any problems of the sort. i see the occasional creeper on /tg/ asking for advice on attracting the woman in there group but they are swiftly insulted with incredible ferocity so it sure as hell aint tolerated. even then its very rare to see that you might get it once every 3 or 4 months.
found one look at it and witness the rage an entire hobby can bring to bear upon 1 man
http://boards.4chan.org/tg/thread/38841739/how-do-i-get-qt-girls-in-my-games
Quote from: TristramEvans;821246Honestly, that is not what I meant by geeky subjects. I was referring more to superheroes, barbarians, monsters, giant robots, ninjas, etc. I've never associated women with having less of an interest in scientific pursuits. Maybe because Ada Lovelace is one of my heroes.
Interestingly, 2 often maligned geek interests that do seem to have an equal or better number of female adherents are horror films and cheesecake art.
If you think that women are just as interested in science, how do you explain that in the 1980s they had had much less degrees in science than they do today?
One common answer is that back in the 1980s there was sexism, but that at present there is no significant sexism - and thus the supposed lower interest of women in RPGs, superheroes, barbarians, monsters, etc. - as well as their lower participation in computer science - just reflects the natural inclinations due to being women.
I don't find this convincing. I think that culture has been shifting to loosen up traditional gender roles, and this has driven change in women's participation.
In many other geeky fields besides science, there has been a major shift. In science fiction and fantasy media, many of the recent hits have been female-dominated. Here are some stories on it:
http://www.today.com/id/32586742/ns/today-today_entertainment/t/emerging-face-geek-fandom-female/
http://entertainment.time.com/2012/09/12/introducing-the-new-face-of-fandom-women/
lol, I never claimed that sexism didnt exist in the 80s. Thats absurd. Youre tangent regarding school subjects just literally had nothing to do with what was being discussed. I dont conflate any science, even computer science, with geeky subjects. Sure there may be a higher population of geeks in those fields, but that has more to do with geeks on the whole being more inclined to intellectual pursuits than many other social groups. Not as much as nerds however. And nerds are their own thing. Not being a part of that subculture, I cannot comment on it, other than observing there are some crossovers in atypical interests.
What is interesting to note, however, is that both articles imply that women are getting into geeky pursuits more now because those hobbies are more socially acceptable. So maybe its just that guys, ultimately, care less about social acceptance.
Quote from: TristramEvans;821263What is interesting to note, however, is that both articles imply that women are getting into geeky pursuits more now because those hobbies are more socially acceptable. So maybe its just that guys, ultimately, care less about social acceptance.
Yup, I don't have any sources to hand but AIR that's well supported.
Quote from: Nexus;821244Wait, I thought "water" was Australian for American beer? :D
It is also American for most American beers.
Geez. This discussion starts with the question as to whether female dwarves have beards and before you know it the elfphiles use their "Elves are the Coolest" privelege to try to make the discussion all about elves.
Then you got the SJWs trying to privelege their real world human politics over a discussion about an imaginary race. If the idea of a discussion as to whether or not female dwarves have beards is "problematic" to you then I suggest you're abusing your "Humans are Actually Real" privelege to judge the aesthetics and beauty standards of a non-human, imaginary species.
I'm sure someone's insisting that dwarves and elves are just masks or filters for expressing human arguments. Maybe for some, but I'd call that a boring lack of imagination. In fact I'll examine my "I probably have more sense than you privelege". What do you know? I have it, and I'm 100% comfortable using it, along with my "priveleges" of internet access and being able to read and write that allows me to participate in this thread, but disenfranchises those who don't have those priveleges.
I'm on an almost mandatory vacation with my extended family. I try to take a little bit of a break from it by coming here to escape and I find half the posts in this thread spouting some pseudo Red Guard Self-Criticism nonsense. (If only the SJWs would be content at criticizing their own selfs instead of insisting everyone else ruining their fun with obsessive witch hunts for guilt.)
Finally, to actually add to the original topic. Yes, in my campaigns adult female dwarves can grow beards. In my home Greyhawk campaign women of the hill dwarves typically shave their facial hair due to more interaction with humans and halflings whose women cannot grow beards. The women of the mountain dwarves let their beards grow out, and are as bountiful as the beards if their men. Insisting dwarves must have the same standards of beauty and sexual dimorphism as humans is as stupid as sticking tits on dragonborn females. There's my .02¢.
Quote from: tuypo1;821240it is a cause of great shame to me that my countrymen love beer so much i mean i dont drink at all but beer has got to be the worst of the alcohols
I'm Australian and I don't drink alcohol.
I used to in my 20s but got sick of it by my late 20s and just stopped.
I must say whilst many people I know DO drink, it doesn't to be as strong a theme as it was 20 years ago.
I know a lot of people across a lot of age ranges and sure most of them drink at some capacity. But only a few drink habitually.
It's probably as the interests I have might draw in those people who don't drink much, which is mostly about, computers, books, RPGs, boardgames, Astronomy and other stuff like that.
I don't frequent pubs anymore and haven't for many years.
So I expect in certain circles it's a big thing. It seems like a waste of money to me to spend so much time and money getting drunk, but hey, each to their own.
Quote from: wmarshal;821341Geez. This discussion starts with the question as to whether female dwarves have beards and before you know it the elfphiles use their "Elves are the Coolest" privelege to try to make the discussion all about elves.
Then you got the SJWs trying to privelege their real world human politics over a discussion about an imaginary race. If the idea of a discussion as to whether or not female dwarves have beards is "problematic" to you then I suggest you're abusing your "Humans are Actually Real" privelege to judge the aesthetics and beauty standards of a non-human, imaginary species.
I'm sure someone's insisting that dwarves and elves are just masks or filters for expressing human arguments. Maybe for some, but I'd call that a boring lack of imagination. In fact I'll examine my "I probably have more sense than you privelege". What do you know? I have it, and I'm 100% comfortable using it, along with my "priveleges" of internet access and being able to read and write that allows me to participate in this thread, but disenfranchises those who don't have those priveleges.
I'm on an almost mandatory vacation with my extended family. I try to take a little bit of a break from it by coming here to escape and I find half the posts in this thread spouting some pseudo Red Guard Self-Criticism nonsense. (If only the SJWs would be content at criticizing their own selfs instead of insisting everyone else ruining their fun with obsessive witch hunts for guilt.)
Finally, to actually add to the original topic. Yes, in my campaigns adult female dwarves can grow beards. In my home Greyhawk campaign women of the hill dwarves typically shave their facial hair due to more interaction with humans and halflings whose women cannot grow beards. The women of the mountain dwarves let their beards grow out, and are as bountiful as the beards if their men. Insisting dwarves must have the same standards of beauty and sexual dimorphism as humans is as stupid as sticking tits on dragonborn females. There's my .02¢.
i auctualy dont mind tits on dragonborn they do have a base race after all the verdict is still out on nipples though
it is sad that some people have no internet access or cant read and write
Quote from: tuypo1;821413it is sad that some people have no internet access or cant read and write
So says the person that is worried about bandwidth, and can not be bothered to use punctuation, and other skills of reading and writing. Irony, can you folks out there taste it?
When I was a young child I fell into a marsh, and got a big gulpful of foetid marshwater in my mouth. It was a rather awful experience. Years later, as an adolescent, I tried beer for the first time. It tasted just like that marshwater. Since then I've stuck to single malt scotches and the occasional vodka.
Yes, beards, absolutely.
A personal thing. I imagine my dwarf female barbarian without one but don't care if someone I play with imagines her with one.
Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;820390Long ago I got asked this question by one of my players and said something like "Very few humans have ever even seen a dwarf woman, so I'll leave it up to the first person who plays a female dwarf to decide".
Fifteen or so years and dozens (If not 100+) of PCs later, the question has yet to be settled. No one in my campaign has yet played a female dwarf.
That's how I do it, too. I don't see a point in defining something that doesn't at all matter to my game. If a player wants to run that route, I'll let 'em come up with whatever they want. I'm not going to waste my time and energy on it unless it is important to an adventure I write.
4e had the best female dwarfs:
(http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e235/dan_martland/image.jpg1_zps7dtawxtv.jpg)
(http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e235/dan_martland/image.jpg2_zpsoj1xvk2e.jpg)
Why should elves get all the hot chicks?
But, where are their beards? Have they shaved them off?
I believe it's called a 'Hollywood' :p
Facial Brazilian.
Quote from: PiebaldWookie;820242Females who shave are daring feminists, hipsters who are leaving their traditions behind, or adventurers who need the practicality of a good shave (and are generally part of the other two groups).
Fellow
Rat Queens reader detected. :cool:
Cue someone protesting the "sexualization" of female dwarves by forcing imperialist patriarchal demands about facial hair on them...
Due to the Quantum Consciousness of the Intranets merely be speaking of it you have made it so!
I also noticed that the 5e illustration of a female dwarf has no beard, so that is the current, 'official' answer to the question!
im just going to tell myself thats an adventuring exception like many have said adventures shave
of course thats just me acting in denial
If I used this in a setting I'd be so tempted to poke fun at the attitude about female waxing and shaving in humans with proponents of both sides being way to zealous about a cosmetic preference.
Quote from: dbm;822864I also noticed that the 5e illustration of a female dwarf has no beard, so that is the current, 'official' answer to the question!
That may be the 'official 5e' answer, but fantasy gaming is a lot bigger than whatever the current version of D&D is. I like playing 5e, but the overall art direction of WOTC D&D continues to disappoint. Too much sameness of style for me. I miss the days when the artists used for D&D had greatly differing styles.
Quote from: wmarshal;823031That may be the 'official 5e' answer, but fantasy gaming is a lot bigger than whatever the current version of D&D is. I like playing 5e, but the overall art direction of WOTC D&D continues to disappoint. Too much sameness of style for me. I miss the days when the artists used for D&D had greatly differing styles.
Yeah, the best thing I can say about 5e art is that it's entirely inoffensive and easily ignored. 4e was a lot more evocative. 3e had terrible art though. 1e had tons of good stuff, 2e was a bit bland and 5e-ish in places.
i never got what peoples problem with the 3e art is myself
now that pathfinder art thats good art especialy the stuff by wayne reynolds because he is an amazing artist and lately he has been doing some q&a he puts a lot of thought into every tiny little detail
Quote from: dbm;822864I also noticed that the 5e illustration of a female dwarf has no beard, so that is the current, 'official' answer to the question!
By that logic, if a human male is shown without a beard, then all men have no beard.
Perhaps the picture showed one female dwarf without a beard.
Quote from: tuypo1;823219i never got what peoples problem with the 3e art is myself
Belts, mainly.
So many belts. Like, a lot. Just belts everywhere.
Quote from: TristramEvans;823289Belts, mainly.
So many belts. Like, a lot. Just belts everywhere.
ok yeah i can agree with that far to many belts